Yes, any decent ballgroup will have a dedicated "purge monkey" (or even more than 1!) whose only job is to spam Purge every GCD.I think a lot is to do with purge spam in groups. You xant get any status effects to stick. Make efficient purge self only and slightly cheaper and the other morph group but require a synergy.
For fun I once tried to apply Soul Splitting Trap to a ballgroup - no dice, it was being purged faster than I could reapply it.
Excuse me, please point out where the "skill" is in the case of ballgroup members, who are receiving godlike healing and can run totally nonviable (for solo/smallscale play) builds that involve spamming 1 or 2 abilities?I find it hilarious though that there are tons of players who consider themselves experts on the game and have no idea how other playstyles even work. Just people who talk down to people who play differently then them and say there's no skill... I guess people have to rationalize losing to keep their ego intact however they can.
Excuse me, please point out where the "skill" is in the case of ballgroup members, who are receiving godlike healing and can run totally nonviable (for solo/smallscale play) builds that involve spamming 1 or 2 abilities?I find it hilarious though that there are tons of players who consider themselves experts on the game and have no idea how other playstyles even work. Just people who talk down to people who play differently then them and say there's no skill... I guess people have to rationalize losing to keep their ego intact however they can.
For the record, my problem isn't with those players as such - but rather with the broken game, which allows such things to happen in the first place.
There were some lengthy discussions about ballgroups in the last couple of weeks, and the consensus was that the only real counter is to bring your own ballgroup... great, all we need is for Cyrodiil to be populated by nothing but ballgroups.
(edit: ack, quoting fail)
No, it’s not balanced.
Healing X amount of damage is easier than Dealing X amount of damage.
Excuse me, please point out where the "skill" is in the case of ballgroup members, who are receiving godlike healing and can run totally nonviable (for solo/smallscale play) builds that involve spamming 1 or 2 abilities?I find it hilarious though that there are tons of players who consider themselves experts on the game and have no idea how other playstyles even work. Just people who talk down to people who play differently then them and say there's no skill... I guess people have to rationalize losing to keep their ego intact however they can.
For the record, my problem isn't with those players as such - but rather with the broken game, which allows such things to happen in the first place.
There were some lengthy discussions about ballgroups in the last couple of weeks, and the consensus was that the only real counter is to bring your own ballgroup... great, all we need is for Cyrodiil to be populated by nothing but ballgroups.
(edit: ack, quoting fail)
You don’t need to bring your own ball group, but don’t expect to take on 24 people with 6.
Getting help or getting carried ? Support healing is so overturned that its impossible to tell whether the rest of the team is garbage or skilled. So I assume everyone is garbage as it doesn't really matter !OG_Kaveman wrote: »PhoenixGrey wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.
Garbage players getting carried by healers ? Heaven forbid
they garbage because they are getting help from their teammate, in a team game? what great logic there.
SoixanteNeuf wrote: »This rant is coming from a perspective where healers and their respective premade groups are optimized for healing and are coordinated for ult dumps.
Healers are a problem and offer too much group utility in Dragonhold/pvp in general. In the last few patches, you could pick off healers within a premade with well-timed stamina bursts or attrition via damage.
However, in Dragonhold - the defensive skill ceiling has been lowered via lowering key burst damage like dizzy swing/ult cast times and overall damage, via dots - so healers that are well-built but not necessarily good players, now have a much easier time staying alive (slower reaction time required to block/break free and given how much less damage players do now).
Premades/Ball groups are overperforming
There just isn't sufficient damage to kill premades with decently built healers without coordinated ult dumps (ideally with a colossus). Some recent unwarranted changes to popular classes like magsorcs with matriarchs/power surge are compounding this healing problem. Additionally, existing things like healing monster sets like Bogdan/Chokethorn/Earthgore add to the advantage that premade ballgroups already have.
Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals.
Healing monster are overperforming in PvPs
There's a need for healing in PvE but when it comes to PvP, healing sets in ballgroups overperform. For example, Chokethorn heals someone for 20k hp over 4 seconds every 10 seconds - that hps is far more than the dps from damage sets such as Valkyn/Selene/Grothdarr because it isn't mitigated by resists/blocking/shields. Yes, you can bash it but by the time you do that, your main target is likely at full hp because you have to waste one global cooldown and walk towards the chokethorn. Additionally, the utility from the burst heal from Earthgore/Chokethorn on top of healing skills is derived from the ability to quickly pull someone out of execution range/outheal ult dumps.
Solution : Implement the Battle Spirit healing debuff or tone down the healing/utility from these sets : for example, reducing Chokethorn's insane range - I think it's currently 20m+.
Bursting healers is harder than ever
With the nerf to healer counters aka stamina dizzy burst/overall dps/fast break requirement cc's like dizzy, healers now have an easier time staying alive because their natural predators are now nerfed. Healing outperforms almost everything except colossus ults.
Solution : Reimplement dizzy stun
Implement Solo Queue/Group Queue
Given all the above mentioned issues with healing, premades compound that issue against solo queuers because there is little chance/margin to solo burst down their healer with the normalization/nerfs to stamina burst/overall damage. So what usually ends up happening is, the premade survives/tanks damage from pug groups before they coordinate ult dumps. In previous patches, solo queuers had the ability to pick off their healers but now they don't.
tl;dr - this meta REALLY rewards the worst things about bgs : healers/premades/magsorcs/tankier builds. In the previous meta, dots were unbalanced but the game was much faster and fun, damage actually felt meaningful. Nowadays, just throwing on a sufficiently tanky build and running with a competent healer guarantees survival, which wasn't the case in any of the previous patches.
A meaningful solution would be to reduce the heals from 3rd parties because self sufficiency/proper resource management should be rewarded - not relying on a tanky healbot/voice comms.
You mean those debuffs that were nerfed so hard they barely exist anymore?
Anything you give solo/small to fight the ball will be used by the ball to farm the solo/small.SoixanteNeuf wrote: »/snipsnip
OG_Kaveman wrote: »People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.
SoixanteNeuf wrote: »Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals.
MurderMostFoul wrote: »
I've been thinking something along these lines for awhile.
Add:
-Reduce healing received from other players by an additional 25%
Imo the issue with grp healing isn't so much an issue with numbers. It is a design issue. Almost all heals are designed as "smart heals" that automatically target the ally with the lowest health, so a healer doesn't have to decide, when to heal which target, a healer doesn't have to target anything in fact. Just look into the general direction of your allies and spam heals and it will always heal the ones who need it the most. Making it way too easy to heal grps. And ofc targeted heals (or other support skills) don't really work because the game doesn't have a reliable targeting system - same reason why single target dmg is pretty useless when fighting larger numbers, so in order to do it efficiently, players are forced into aoe spam.
Taleof2Cities wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »
I've been thinking something along these lines for awhile.
Add:
-Reduce healing received from other players by an additional 25%
So essentially take away the Healer role in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds?
Was 25% conjured out of thin air ... or do you have tooltip numbers and HPS testing data to back it up??
Good thing all the armchair developers in this thread aren’t working at ZOS ...
Now after thinking about it, with collision detection pretty much all but certain to never happen; they should make real tab targeting. That's the counter in other games. Mark and focus the healer.
"Healing is overtuned"
Yet won't name what skills are. I can tell what heals are definitely overtuned:
[skills] : matriarch, healing ward (as long as BRP resto exists with no downside), rapid regen AND radiating, vigor, ALL HP % heals, living dark
sets: Earthgore, Bogdan, Trinimac, Chokethorn
As for healing ults, only one will make my list really: Life Giver
Skills and sets that are not there are not there for a concrete reason.
Also, if we wanna talk about healing in a CP environment, can't forget to talk about vengence CP passive, critical leech that still procs sets, cost reduction passives in the line, etc.
And don't get me started on the sets that are defensive that I think give too much. Yeah, let's stop here...
Now after thinking about it, with collision detection pretty much all but certain to never happen; they should make real tab targeting. That's the counter in other games. Mark and focus the healer.
There’s already focus targets. See, this is why I think the people complaining about stuff like this will never be happy, most of the complaints come down to ‘I want to be a solo hero and other players are working together - please nerf’.