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Healers/Ballgroups/Premades Are Outperforming in Dragonhold

  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    Major_Lag wrote: »
    technohic wrote: »
    I think a lot is to do with purge spam in groups. You xant get any status effects to stick. Make efficient purge self only and slightly cheaper and the other morph group but require a synergy.
    Yes, any decent ballgroup will have a dedicated "purge monkey" (or even more than 1!) whose only job is to spam Purge every GCD.

    For fun I once tried to apply Soul Splitting Trap to a ballgroup - no dice, it was being purged faster than I could reapply it.

    No one spams efficient purge unless they're bad.... they spam cleanse the other morph.

    Either way there's no way to change that ability without breaking the game. Too many aoe cc's and dumb effects that are equally imbalanced. The only reason there isn't more complaints about them is there are cleanse spammers. There are also other things that people do besides spam that one ability unless they're terribad.

    I find it hilarious though that there are tons of players who consider themselves experts on the game and have no idea how other playstyles even work. Just people who talk down to people who play differently then them and say there's no skill... I guess people have to rationalize losing to keep their ego intact however they can.
    Edited by Iskiab on November 16, 2019 4:42PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Major_Lag
    Major_Lag
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    I find it hilarious though that there are tons of players who consider themselves experts on the game and have no idea how other playstyles even work. Just people who talk down to people who play differently then them and say there's no skill... I guess people have to rationalize losing to keep their ego intact however they can.
    Excuse me, please point out where the "skill" is in the case of ballgroup members, who are receiving godlike healing and can run totally nonviable (for solo/smallscale play) builds that involve spamming 1 or 2 abilities?

    For the record, my problem isn't with those players as such - but rather with the broken game, which allows such things to happen in the first place.

    There were some lengthy discussions about ballgroups in the last couple of weeks, and the consensus was that the only real counter is to bring your own ballgroup... great, all we need is for Cyrodiil to be populated by nothing but ballgroups.
    (edit: ack, quoting fail)
    Edited by Major_Lag on November 16, 2019 7:14PM
  • Qbiken
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    Major_Lag wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    I find it hilarious though that there are tons of players who consider themselves experts on the game and have no idea how other playstyles even work. Just people who talk down to people who play differently then them and say there's no skill... I guess people have to rationalize losing to keep their ego intact however they can.
    Excuse me, please point out where the "skill" is in the case of ballgroup members, who are receiving godlike healing and can run totally nonviable (for solo/smallscale play) builds that involve spamming 1 or 2 abilities?

    For the record, my problem isn't with those players as such - but rather with the broken game, which allows such things to happen in the first place.

    There were some lengthy discussions about ballgroups in the last couple of weeks, and the consensus was that the only real counter is to bring your own ballgroup... great, all we need is for Cyrodiil to be populated by nothing but ballgroups.
    (edit: ack, quoting fail)

    @Major_Lag
    don´t bother with iskiab, he plays in a 24+man ballgroup and lacks perspective of any decent pvp in this game
  • Solariken
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    OP speaks truth.
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    No, it’s not balanced.

    Healing X amount of damage is easier than Dealing X amount of damage.

    Yeah heals are completely unmitigated (especially crits) and barely require targeting in most cases.
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    Major_Lag wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    I find it hilarious though that there are tons of players who consider themselves experts on the game and have no idea how other playstyles even work. Just people who talk down to people who play differently then them and say there's no skill... I guess people have to rationalize losing to keep their ego intact however they can.
    Excuse me, please point out where the "skill" is in the case of ballgroup members, who are receiving godlike healing and can run totally nonviable (for solo/smallscale play) builds that involve spamming 1 or 2 abilities?

    For the record, my problem isn't with those players as such - but rather with the broken game, which allows such things to happen in the first place.

    There were some lengthy discussions about ballgroups in the last couple of weeks, and the consensus was that the only real counter is to bring your own ballgroup... great, all we need is for Cyrodiil to be populated by nothing but ballgroups.
    (edit: ack, quoting fail)

    You don’t need to bring your own ball group, but don’t expect to take on 24 people with 6.

    The mistake lots of players make is they assume they’re better players then everyone else and should stand a chance. They aren’t. Topics like this sort of prove it, most small scale players have no clue how ball groups work much less how to counter them. Their usual reply is ‘come play my playstyle so I can have an advantage’.

    If all these ‘experts’ were half as good as they think they are they’d be able to compete in their own 24 person group.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • MincVinyl
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    In bgs it isnt healing that concerns me the most. I find it more depressing that the meta for 30min ques in high mmr bg is the team that wins is whoever has more uncounterable damage and the most group heals.

    Before it was whoever had the frost wardens spamming aoe cc, now you have every mag toon slotting accel drain. stam toons can spam arrow barrage and whirling blades. Im sure we can brainstorm a few other abilities that have little counterplay in them, but these I see overused in bgs alot.

    New dizzy is meh, although i cant understand the logic behind cutting the damage and removing the knockback. You can argue it still has a stun if you just weave a short medium attack, but medium attacks do less damage than lights and take more time. So you are cutting your dps even more just to get a plain stun, not a knockback. If you go for a heavy attack, then you are simply just adding in a third aim check to dizzy making it easy to counter. Only real reason to stick with dizzy is for a more interactive playstyle, instead of selling your soul to the uncounterable aoe/dot hump gods.
  • NBrookus
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    Solariken wrote: »
    OP speaks truth.
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    No, it’s not balanced.

    Healing X amount of damage is easier than Dealing X amount of damage.

    Yeah heals are completely unmitigated (especially crits) and barely require targeting in most cases.

    Minor and Major Defile would like a word.
  • WreckfulAbandon
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    OP speaks truth.
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    No, it’s not balanced.

    Healing X amount of damage is easier than Dealing X amount of damage.

    Yeah heals are completely unmitigated (especially crits) and barely require targeting in most cases.

    Minor and Major Defile would like a word.

    And those debuffs are extremely rare now.
    PC NA

    All my comments are regarding PvP
  • Solariken
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    OP speaks truth.
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    No, it’s not balanced.

    Healing X amount of damage is easier than Dealing X amount of damage.

    Yeah heals are completely unmitigated (especially crits) and barely require targeting in most cases.

    Minor and Major Defile would like a word.

    You mean those debuffs that were nerfed so hard they barely exist anymore?
  • Taleof2Cities
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    You don’t need to bring your own ball group, but don’t expect to take on 24 people with 6.

    Maybe this is a good summary the OP's problem ... ?

    We've asked about details on which situations are causing the OP grief ... but no details have been provided thus far.

    I'm praying for the sake of continuing the discussion that no zerg surfing is involved. ;)
  • PhoenixGrey
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

    Garbage players getting carried by healers ? Heaven forbid

    they garbage because they are getting help from their teammate, in a team game? what great logic there.
    Getting help or getting carried ? Support healing is so overturned that its impossible to tell whether the rest of the team is garbage or skilled. So I assume everyone is garbage as it doesn't really matter !
    Once you get a healer on your team it's a pve dps parse.
    If there is a healer on other teams as well then it's still a dps parse with no deaths
    Buffing self healing even more for all I care but stop lending easy carries to everyone else around
    Edited by PhoenixGrey on November 18, 2019 7:54AM
  • Grianasteri
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    This rant is coming from a perspective where healers and their respective premade groups are optimized for healing and are coordinated for ult dumps.

    Healers are a problem and offer too much group utility in Dragonhold/pvp in general. In the last few patches, you could pick off healers within a premade with well-timed stamina bursts or attrition via damage.

    However, in Dragonhold - the defensive skill ceiling has been lowered via lowering key burst damage like dizzy swing/ult cast times and overall damage, via dots - so healers that are well-built but not necessarily good players, now have a much easier time staying alive (slower reaction time required to block/break free and given how much less damage players do now).

    Premades/Ball groups are overperforming

    There just isn't sufficient damage to kill premades with decently built healers without coordinated ult dumps (ideally with a colossus). Some recent unwarranted changes to popular classes like magsorcs with matriarchs/power surge are compounding this healing problem. Additionally, existing things like healing monster sets like Bogdan/Chokethorn/Earthgore add to the advantage that premade ballgroups already have.

    Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals.

    Healing monster are overperforming in PvPs

    There's a need for healing in PvE but when it comes to PvP, healing sets in ballgroups overperform. For example, Chokethorn heals someone for 20k hp over 4 seconds every 10 seconds - that hps is far more than the dps from damage sets such as Valkyn/Selene/Grothdarr because it isn't mitigated by resists/blocking/shields. Yes, you can bash it but by the time you do that, your main target is likely at full hp because you have to waste one global cooldown and walk towards the chokethorn. Additionally, the utility from the burst heal from Earthgore/Chokethorn on top of healing skills is derived from the ability to quickly pull someone out of execution range/outheal ult dumps.

    Solution : Implement the Battle Spirit healing debuff or tone down the healing/utility from these sets : for example, reducing Chokethorn's insane range - I think it's currently 20m+.

    Bursting healers is harder than ever

    With the nerf to healer counters aka stamina dizzy burst/overall dps/fast break requirement cc's like dizzy, healers now have an easier time staying alive because their natural predators are now nerfed. Healing outperforms almost everything except colossus ults.

    Solution : Reimplement dizzy stun

    Implement Solo Queue/Group Queue

    Given all the above mentioned issues with healing, premades compound that issue against solo queuers because there is little chance/margin to solo burst down their healer with the normalization/nerfs to stamina burst/overall damage. So what usually ends up happening is, the premade survives/tanks damage from pug groups before they coordinate ult dumps. In previous patches, solo queuers had the ability to pick off their healers but now they don't.

    tl;dr - this meta REALLY rewards the worst things about bgs : healers/premades/magsorcs/tankier builds. In the previous meta, dots were unbalanced but the game was much faster and fun, damage actually felt meaningful. Nowadays, just throwing on a sufficiently tanky build and running with a competent healer guarantees survival, which wasn't the case in any of the previous patches.

    A meaningful solution would be to reduce the heals from 3rd parties because self sufficiency/proper resource management should be rewarded - not relying on a tanky healbot/voice comms.

    Frankly this is being over thought and made overly complex.

    It is simple. Stop putting pre-made groups up against non pre-made groups. It is totally and completely unfair.

    The queue system should separate pre-made and pug groups. If this has too great an impact on wait times, then limit pre-made groups entering pug queues to those with 2 players. So a pug would only ever come up against two optimised/team working players among 4, therefore levelling the playing field significantly more than it presently is.

    Next.
  • NordSwordnBoard
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    Make defile spread from player to player (group only) like that Craglorn trial? Would it wear out the fingers/resources of the purge bots? Anything you can do to the ball groups can usually be thrown right back at you, but at least the solos/small groups next to the zerg/larger groups cold avoid it.

    I'd much rather see skill or stat adjustment instead of rolling out "Defile Queen" monster set to counter Troll King and healing.
    Fear is the Mindkiller
  • MincVinyl
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    I don't think defiles would be the answer. All that would do is now make the aoe dot ball groups stack defiles on you as well. If you are a solo player and choose to run defiles they will just purge them off like they are nothing.

    All they bank on is simple non counter-able damage. If zos kept the dot nerfs in the original pts cycle these groups probably wouldn't be as potent.

    Still wouldn't matter since ques are still 30 mins during prime time for high mmr
  • Akinos
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    Solariken wrote: »
    NBrookus wrote: »
    Solariken wrote: »
    OP speaks truth.
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    No, it’s not balanced.

    Healing X amount of damage is easier than Dealing X amount of damage.

    Yeah heals are completely unmitigated (especially crits) and barely require targeting in most cases.

    Minor and Major Defile would like a word.

    You mean those debuffs that were nerfed so hard they barely exist anymore?

    Defile is fine, 30-35% heal debuff is enough. The issue is that there's not enough sources of aoe defile. There are only 3 classes with defile skills that can counter mass healing, warden aoe defile, shifting standard, dark flare, but people choose not use those skills for whatever reason.

    Asking for premades to only go against other premades is fair, i don't like getting rekt by teams of 4 magsorcs or w/e in the rare times i do battlegrounds.

    And even if ballgroups/teams/premades get nerfed like people in this thread want, they'll always find a way to keep doing what their doing now. There will never be enough nerfs to counter human ingenuity and good old fashioned teamwork.
    PC NA | @AkinosPvP 1vX/Small Scaler, Raid Leader, Youtuber and Twitch.tv Streamer.MAGICKA MELEE IS LIFE!Magplar, MagDK, Magden, Magblade, Magsorc & Magcro PvP/Build videos & moretwitch.tv/akinospvp
  • Iskiab
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    Lag is a huge issue. It’s so bad right now it’s effecting the balance of the game.

    Ults don’t work, break free doesn’t work if you stack stuns, burst combos don’t work, the game’s playing like crap.

    All you need to do to do well is have pulsing aoe damage and spam stuns. Those seem to work okay. Performance issues in the game are rippling through any semblance of balance the game’s supposed to have.
    Edited by Iskiab on November 20, 2019 6:48PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • nafensoriel
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    /snipsnip
    Anything you give solo/small to fight the ball will be used by the ball to farm the solo/small.

    Even if you nerfed PVP down to light attacks only the "ball group" would still be apex because they could simply focus fire anyone to death.

    So far every time someones really tried to "nerf" ball groups its only ended up hurting everyone else while the balls do whatever balls want to do.

  • xWarbrain
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    1. Ball groups and Premades are two different things in two different types of PvP content.

    2. Nerfing any skill, buff or set in the hopes of nerfing ball groups or premades will be overcome by the nature of these groups, which is that they work better as a team than a group of players the same size or larger using the same skills, buffs or sets.

    3. There is nothing that a Ball group does that can't be copied. They are just groups of players. They haven't unlocked anything secret, they just work together better than zerglings and have better timing. They are usually more experienced and know what's coming before it happens. They stay on crown.

    4. "Premades" are often just 4 friends playing BGs together. One of them is often a healer. There's nothing to nerf. Buff your friends list. It would be nice to split up group queue and solo queue, but it would significantly increase the queue time for everyone.

    As it often is on these forums, this is just a L2P issue. No nerf to be had. The only thing that ZoS would have any chance of controlling here is the matchup of groups of 4 playing against 4 solo players in BGs. Talking about defile or other ways to "take down a ball group" is irrelevant to the fact that it just a cohesive group of players. They'll just take whatever change you make and use it against even bigger groups anyway, i.e. Proximity Detonation.
    XB1 NA
    Your nerf suggestion is dumb. Learn to counter other players instead of having the game rebuilt to your ability level.
  • Casul
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    I started using a defile DoT build on my stamden. 58% reduction in CP, 45% in nonCP. I feel a lot stronger in BG now especially since its all AoE based defile. One ult drop inside my defile makes it hard for enemy teams to recover.
    PvP needs more love.
  • Goregrinder
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

    Using voices over VOIP to state what target to focus on, or who is going to pop their ultimate first? Whaaaat? But that would be....coordinated....that is overpowered, ZOS needs to nerf coordination!!! How is a group of random players with no mic supposed to beat a fully coordinate group of human beings??

    This is outrageous ZOS! DO SOMETHING!!!
  • jecks33
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    don't touch healers!

    Bogdan and Earthgore (this 2 times), Healing springs, horn, and a bounch of other things have been nerfed because of pvp.
    The problem are not healers, the problem are garbage players asking every day for nerfs because they are garbage at pvp, the real cancer of this game
    PC-EU
  • MurderMostFoul
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    Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals.

    I've been thinking something along these lines for awhile.

    Currently Battle Spirit:
    -Increase Health by 5000
    -Reduce damage taken by 50%
    -Reduce healing received and damage shield strength by 50%
    -Increase range of abilities with greater than 28m range by 8m in Cyrodiil

    Add:
    -Reduce healing received from other players by an additional 25%
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Taleof2Cities
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    I've been thinking something along these lines for awhile.

    Add:
    -Reduce healing received from other players by an additional 25%

    So essentially take away the Healer role in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds?

    Was 25% conjured out of thin air ... or do you have tooltip numbers and HPS testing data to back it up??

    Good thing all the armchair developers in this thread aren’t working at ZOS ...
  • Rianai
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    Imo the issue with grp healing isn't so much an issue with numbers. It is a design issue. Almost all heals are designed as "smart heals" that automatically target the ally with the lowest health, so a healer doesn't have to decide, when to heal which target, a healer doesn't have to target anything in fact. Just look into the general direction of your allies and spam heals and it will always heal the ones who need it the most. Making it way too easy to heal grps. And ofc targeted heals (or other support skills) don't really work because the game doesn't have a reliable targeting system - same reason why single target dmg is pretty useless when fighting larger numbers, so in order to do it efficiently, players are forced into aoe spam.
  • technohic
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    Rianai wrote: »
    Imo the issue with grp healing isn't so much an issue with numbers. It is a design issue. Almost all heals are designed as "smart heals" that automatically target the ally with the lowest health, so a healer doesn't have to decide, when to heal which target, a healer doesn't have to target anything in fact. Just look into the general direction of your allies and spam heals and it will always heal the ones who need it the most. Making it way too easy to heal grps. And ofc targeted heals (or other support skills) don't really work because the game doesn't have a reliable targeting system - same reason why single target dmg is pretty useless when fighting larger numbers, so in order to do it efficiently, players are forced into aoe spam.

    And that's a big reason ball groups work. Trying to hit a target to take them down 1 by 1 is not going to happen because they just get absorbed into LOS of their group. DOTs get purged, and the only way to hit them is AOE which you are not going to outdo them there without an equivalent group either in numbers or extreme coordination with lots of negates.
  • MurderMostFoul
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    I've been thinking something along these lines for awhile.

    Add:
    -Reduce healing received from other players by an additional 25%

    So essentially take away the Healer role in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds?

    Was 25% conjured out of thin air ... or do you have tooltip numbers and HPS testing data to back it up??

    Good thing all the armchair developers in this thread aren’t working at ZOS ...

    I never suggested that this number was perfect, it was suggested in response to a recommendation to "experiment" with Battle Spirit.

    However, having played hundreds of hours of BGs, I know it would improve the situation. It would make third party healing helpful without survivability being super easy as it is currently with a healer. It wouldn't effect survivability from self heals, and it would have zero effect on PvE.
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • technohic
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    Now after thinking about it, with collision detection pretty much all but certain to never happen; they should make real tab targeting. That's the counter in other games. Mark and focus the healer.
  • Iskiab
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    technohic wrote: »
    Now after thinking about it, with collision detection pretty much all but certain to never happen; they should make real tab targeting. That's the counter in other games. Mark and focus the healer.

    There’s already focus targets. See, this is why I think the people complaining about stuff like this will never be happy, most of the complaints come down to ‘I want to be a solo hero and other players are working together - please nerf’.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Luckylancer
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    "Healing is overtuned"

    Yet won't name what skills are. I can tell what heals are definitely overtuned:

    [skills] : matriarch, healing ward (as long as BRP resto exists with no downside), rapid regen AND radiating, vigor, ALL HP % heals, living dark

    sets: Earthgore, Bogdan, Trinimac, Chokethorn

    As for healing ults, only one will make my list really: Life Giver

    Skills and sets that are not there are not there for a concrete reason.

    Also, if we wanna talk about healing in a CP environment, can't forget to talk about vengence CP passive, critical leech that still procs sets, cost reduction passives in the line, etc.

    And don't get me started on the sets that are defensive that I think give too much. Yeah, let's stop here...

    Healing is over tuned. No skills have to be called, it is OBVIOUS that people heal easier than we deal damage.
  • technohic
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    technohic wrote: »
    Now after thinking about it, with collision detection pretty much all but certain to never happen; they should make real tab targeting. That's the counter in other games. Mark and focus the healer.

    There’s already focus targets. See, this is why I think the people complaining about stuff like this will never be happy, most of the complaints come down to ‘I want to be a solo hero and other players are working together - please nerf’.

    What are you talking about? You can call someone out, and you can tab to target them, but it just highlights them. You cannot make sure that's who you hit when them and their buddies go running through each other. The more buddies they have, the more difficult to pinpoint them. Meanwhile; smart heals hit them regardless.
    Edited by technohic on November 22, 2019 3:40PM
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