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Why Stamblade is actually S-tier for Solo PvP

nesakinter
nesakinter
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The one thing that truly made stamblade the beast it is in solo-PvP, is it's ridiculously strong defense and mobility toolkit, which remained strong through out the entire ESO lifecycle. Shadow image and cloak compliment each other perfectly and when combined with dodge and snare removal tools allows stamblades to survive through just anything. Having such a ridiculously strong defense to fall back to, lets them build for so much damage other classes won't even dream about. Plus, while they lost several class buffs in Elsweyr, they got back Minor berserk and Minor endurance via universal skills. WHich means, the only thing they lack in comparison to pre-Elsewyr NBs is Major Defile and Major Fracture, but some good stamblades moved on to using other combos outside Surprise attack and Incap, which means they basically lose out on nothing. And the primary strength of stamblades solo is the ability to choose their fights and never be forced to fight in unfavorable situations unless they want to.

The tier-list by @BohnT and other great PvPers, is only applicable for top-tier PvPers, which means it is about how the best player of their respective classes stack against each other. It only takes into account the people who literally knows their classes inside out and their experiences. S-tier stamblades does not imply that the average stamblade will fare better than other classes in PvP. Neither does it mean that a good stamblade is guaranteed to win all duels even if they commit mistakes. It simply means, the top stamblades will have an advantage in solo combat in difficult scenarios like 1vX compares to say A-tier classes like top magsorcs or top magplars. In the battle of bests, stamblades win out significantly. There is a reason for the last two years, every dueling tourney has been won by stamblades. This also reflects in 1vX, in which you will find that the best outnumbered fights by other classes have 1v10, who usually succumb with more players or if even a small organized group of other good players arrive. The best stamblade 1vXes have them going against high as 20+ players, and even if they don't kill everybody, they kill a lot more before escaping successfully than other classes who wouldn't even survive in that situation.

The reason why some people feel stamblades are low-tier, is because stamblade has a very different learning curve than other classes. Stamblades has an easier learning curve slope initially compared to other classes, due to Cloak. But after that, the mastering curve of stamblade is very steep and is a true test of patience and involves lots of PvP experience(and dying while at it) as well as very low reaction times, good decision making capability and high combat intelligence. The main reason for this is that inspite of stamblades having defense and offense capability, it is fully active in nature, defense a lot on proper positioning and changes in every scenario, unlike the high passive defense of say Templar or Warden and the easy offensive combo of Magsorcs. NBs have to learn to properly set up their fights in order to win, unlike say magplar, who can run in with Jabs,Breath of life and still be effective. Stamblade is a pure example of high risk, high reward.

Majority stamblades never go beyond the initial learning phase and the number of players who actually mastered it is far lesser than other classes. 99% stamblades don't know how to use Shadow Image effectively while a master stamblade knows that Shadow Image is far stronger than cloak as a defense skill. And I don't blame them, it is very hard to learn that skill, before you can even properly use it in combat considering it's limited time and positioning aspect. Result is that 99% stamblades get eaten up by equally skilled players on easier classes.

Just yesterday, I was on my Stamplar in Cyro and faced 5-6 man AD group consisting of mostly stamblades. Given how most dominion stamblades are, I killed every single one in a 1vX without feeling much pressure. They couldn't even escape the sheer pressure of Jabs while trying to cloak and dodge without any good.... Just a bit far away, a certain other AD stamblade was watching his brethren getting slaughtered without bothering to join in. Deciding to finish the 1vx on a nice high, I decided to attack him. I just couldn't manage to keep him in my Jabs, and he was straight up spamming Shade teleport. However he showed no sign of attacking me giving me no sense of threat and I managed to CC him, following up with Onslaught, Jabs. Just when he enterred execute range and I knew I had won the fight, he disappeared (I presumed shaded away again). Next thing I saw was my HP bar dropping ridiculously fast. I casted vigor and the templar healing ult Remembrance, which saves me against even zergs. This happened next.
zaczczc.png
This was on Nord templar with pariah and troll king with nearly 40k resists in execute. I had a 19k vigor and nearly 50k healing ult, which also gave me Major protection on me. I have fought many good players and survived the wrath of zergs. Not even very good magsorcs, magplars or any other class for that matter, ever managed to kill me on such a tanky build with a single combo, without even the use of healing ult. Yet, this stamblade had such ridiculously high damage that he drowned all my mitigation and self-healing with just his first combo without even bothering to use his class burst skill, while making a mockery of my offense as well. You can see from the death recap that he had packed 60k+ damage in just 3 gcd, which means over 20k+ dps, that is straight up crazy in a PvP scenario. This is the difference between a good stamblade and the average stamblade. No other class has such a big skill gap.
Edited by nesakinter on November 17, 2019 4:30AM
  • ChunkyCat
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    tldr; but you can’t compare duels to cp cyrodil or to no cp BGs.

    Your build should change for each of those PvP modes.

    Your average stamblade sucks because stamblade is the hardest class to play, unless your just tryna gank in cyrodil.
  • Pauls
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    Why you tried to eat ballista ult instead of rolling around while its up? 🤔
  • Kikazaru
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    That screenshot is actually a build that a player posted here on the forums that FOCUS primarily on pure damage, akin to ganking... though the amount of players who run THAT spec is very small.
    Edited by Kikazaru on November 17, 2019 4:46AM
    Mizaru


    “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
  • nesakinter
    nesakinter
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    Pauls wrote: »
    Why you tried to eat ballista ult instead of rolling around while its up? 🤔

    Because this is the first time I have ever seen Ballista outdamage Remembrance ulti. Ballista from 90% players don't damage enough my build enough to require immediate rolling. Most of the times, it does not even bring me to execute, let alone need healing ulti.
  • nesakinter
    nesakinter
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    Kikazaru wrote: »
    That screenshot is actually a build that a player posted here on the forums that FOCUS primarily on pure damage, akin to ganking... though the amount of players who run THAT spec is very small.

    @Kikazaru He didn't gank though, even though he had the chance while I was fighting others. He was literally watching me 1vX. Also I don't remember the last time I have been ganked. Having 30k Hp turns off most gankers. The ones who do try, melt to Jabs as soon as i counter attack. He literally let me attack for a good minute.
    Edited by nesakinter on November 17, 2019 4:52AM
  • Kikazaru
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    nesakinter wrote: »
    Kikazaru wrote: »
    That screenshot is actually a build that a player posted here on the forums that FOCUS primarily on pure damage, akin to ganking... though the amount of players who run THAT spec is very small.

    @Kikazaru He didn't gank though, even though he had the chance while I was fighting others. He was literally watching me 1vX. Also I don't remember the last time I have been ganked. Having 30k Hp turns off most gankers. The ones who do try, melt to Jabs as soon as i counter attack. He literally let me attack for a good minute.



    This sort of build doesn't play like a traditional ganker, though. Since, it gives the player the capability to cause an exorbitant amount of damage while out of stealth/cloak with their extremely high wp/crit damage/chance/penetration when all buffs/ set procs are up.


    Mizaru


    “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
  • aaylas
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    To be clear, the reason stamblades are S-tier in your opinion is because a stamblade was able to (1) beat you in a duel open-world (2) using a combination of fighters' guild and weapon abilities? I love the ESO forums.
  • nsmurfer
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    nesakinter wrote: »
    Kikazaru wrote: »
    That screenshot is actually a build that a player posted here on the forums that FOCUS primarily on pure damage, akin to ganking... though the amount of players who run THAT spec is very small.

    @Kikazaru He didn't gank though, even though he had the chance while I was fighting others. He was literally watching me 1vX. Also I don't remember the last time I have been ganked. Having 30k Hp turns off most gankers. The ones who do try, melt to Jabs as soon as i counter attack. He literally let me attack for a good minute.

    It is pretty obvious who this player is, if you are on PC/NA, especially as you mentioned he was a AD nb. This person is pretty infamous for his use of ballista and the only one who runs that build I have seen. His literal playstyle involves standing like a troll baiting you into attacking him. The moment you attacked him, you entered his trap. As much as I dislike his playstyle, he is a very good nb and has an unpredictable way of fighting so him surviving your attacks is not surprising. He was mostly probably building ult to max out balorgh and waited for you to be distracted by offense.

    That does not mean all stamblades will fare the same.
    Edited by nsmurfer on November 17, 2019 5:23AM
  • Kikazaru
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    The players best chance to survive it is anticipate the ballista combo ( epsecially during acuity proc if they are using it)and dodge block/heal... even better with sword and board.
    Mizaru


    “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
  • nesakinter
    nesakinter
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    aaylas wrote: »
    To be clear, the reason stamblades are S-tier in your opinion is because a stamblade was able to (1) beat you in a duel open-world (2) using a combination of fighters' guild and weapon abilities? I love the ESO forums.

    I don't really care whether I win or lose in a duel. But the situation of a duel can say a lot about how a class currently stand against others.

    I have duelled the best PvPers out there on both pc na and eu. I have dueled the best magsorcs including Malcolm, irilya, Pelican; the best stamplars such as Kirimoto, jules, rhage lionpride; the best magblades like Kena, Dilares, etc and the list goes on. I have both lost and won tons of duels and attended lots of tourneys, so I have much experience to understand the power of someone's build and the player's skilllevel. In this tankiness meta, I have not seen one single scenario where someone deals 60k+ damage in 3 gcd against someone with 40k resists, 3k health recovery, major protection, vigor+healing ult active before this. That requires stacking an abysmal damage stats while also being capable of shrugging off enemy attacks, which only one class can do successfully that being stamblade. The player is obvious very good, but I fight some of the best players and content-creators in the game regularly, who are much more well-known, so it is not a case of him being much better than me.
  • nesakinter
    nesakinter
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    nesakinter wrote: »
    Kikazaru wrote: »
    That screenshot is actually a build that a player posted here on the forums that FOCUS primarily on pure damage, akin to ganking... though the amount of players who run THAT spec is very small.

    @Kikazaru He didn't gank though, even though he had the chance while I was fighting others. He was literally watching me 1vX. Also I don't remember the last time I have been ganked. Having 30k Hp turns off most gankers. The ones who do try, melt to Jabs as soon as i counter attack. He literally let me attack for a good minute.

    It is pretty obvious who this player is, if you are on PC/NA, especially as you mentioned he was a AD nb. This person is pretty infamous for his use of ballista and the only one who runs that build I have seen. His literal playstyle involves standing like a troll baiting you into attacking him. The moment you attacked him, you entered his trap. As much as I dislike his playstyle, he is a very good nb and has an unpredictable way of fighting so him surviving your attacks is not surprising. He was mostly probably building ult to max out balorgh and waited for you to be distracted by offense.

    That does not mean all stamblades will fare the same.

    Yeah, this was on pc/na so you are probably on the mark but I don't want to name him to avoid baiting and I have no issues with him. However, it shows how strong Nbs are in the right hand.
  • Langeston
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    aaylas wrote: »
    To be clear, the reason stamblades are S-tier in your opinion is because a stamblade was able to (1) beat you in a duel open-world (2) using a combination of fighters' guild and weapon abilities? I love the ESO forums.

    Lol, well put.
  • nesakinter
    nesakinter
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    Kikazaru wrote: »
    The players best chance to survive it is anticipate the ballista combo ( epsecially during acuity proc if they are using it)and dodge block/heal... even better with sword and board.

    I was already healing with a hefty vigor of 19k. I believe cleansing ritual ritual was also down healing me as well. I have 3k health recovery with troll king. Plus I had used the Templar healing ult with a 50k tooltip, which also gives me Major protection but stops me from blocking or dodging. If major protection, 40k resists, 3k health recovery and crazy self-healing was outdamaged, then most certainly blocking wouldn't help on classes without ranged damage protection like wings, bol or shimmering shield. I can see dodging help though, but I got caught off-guard so I had to no choice but to go for the healing ult, which is the best oh-cr*p defense of templars. He did not even attack me once before and the fight was going the same Jabs and shade away till then and I almost got him, so I had no way to predict his combo.
  • StaticWave
    StaticWave
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    nesakinter wrote: »
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    nesakinter wrote: »
    Kikazaru wrote: »
    That screenshot is actually a build that a player posted here on the forums that FOCUS primarily on pure damage, akin to ganking... though the amount of players who run THAT spec is very small.

    @Kikazaru He didn't gank though, even though he had the chance while I was fighting others. He was literally watching me 1vX. Also I don't remember the last time I have been ganked. Having 30k Hp turns off most gankers. The ones who do try, melt to Jabs as soon as i counter attack. He literally let me attack for a good minute.

    It is pretty obvious who this player is, if you are on PC/NA, especially as you mentioned he was a AD nb. This person is pretty infamous for his use of ballista and the only one who runs that build I have seen. His literal playstyle involves standing like a troll baiting you into attacking him. The moment you attacked him, you entered his trap. As much as I dislike his playstyle, he is a very good nb and has an unpredictable way of fighting so him surviving your attacks is not surprising. He was mostly probably building ult to max out balorgh and waited for you to be distracted by offense.

    That does not mean all stamblades will fare the same.

    Yeah, this was on pc/na so you are probably on the mark but I don't want to name him to avoid baiting and I have no issues with him. However, it shows how strong Nbs are in the right hand.

    Can you DM me the name? I’m very curious. I’m on PC Na also
  • hakan
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    Yea yea yea. X Class is the best cuz x player plays it look!

    What happened to "you cant balance the game around duels cuz its not a representative of the real pvp" arguments?

    How about when stamblade was best pve class but it was hard to reach to that point and everyone said "its not even hard everyone can do it" then it got nerfed, leaving stamblade with mediocre dps and hardest rotation?

    Every class can hit Stamblade burst, snap out of the illusion.
  • Kikazaru
    Kikazaru
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    nesakinter wrote: »
    Kikazaru wrote: »
    The players best chance to survive it is anticipate the ballista combo ( epsecially during acuity proc if they are using it)and dodge block/heal... even better with sword and board.

    I was already healing with a hefty vigor of 19k. I believe cleansing ritual ritual was also down healing me as well. I have 3k health recovery with troll king. Plus I had used the Templar healing ult with a 50k tooltip, which also gives me Major protection but stops me from blocking or dodging. If major protection, 40k resists, 3k health recovery and crazy self-healing was outdamaged, then most certainly blocking wouldn't help on classes without ranged damage protection like wings, bol or shimmering shield. I can see dodging help though, but I got caught off-guard so I had to no choice but to go for the healing ult, which is the best oh-cr*p defense of templars. He did not even attack me once before and the fight was going the same Jabs and shade away till then and I almost got him, so I had no way to predict his combo.

    and that's exactly what this build capitalizes on, the 'caught off-guard' aspect of it, ppl don't expect such high damage and they get demolished utterly. I've seen his highlight vids and how crazy the damage is, but I don't know his EXACT success rate of his ballista combos in a full session of pvp.

    I have damage set ups, not as extreme as this one, using the ballista, and it is still effective in taking out 'off-guard' experienced players when timed right.
    Mizaru


    “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
  • Ysbriel
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    Said no one in 2019 but OP
  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    I dont think that NB has strong defences, as Cloak is extremely easy to counter. Sure, if you dont counter it it feels strong, but if you do counter it (any aoe, Haunting Curse, detect pots, mages light/ expert hunter, etc, it would take a separate thread to mention every single hard counter), it is an automatic hard counter, negating the skill. NB has to cloak again, wasting recurses, so if they are stam NB the can cast it maybe like 3 times till they run out of magicka.

    As for Shadow image it is (on paper) one of the best mobility skills (I think only streak or Mist Form beats it), but most of the time in game this skill was bugged and I do believe it is still bugged, making it extremely unreliable.

    As for the NB on S tier, it is imho just not there. A or B at best. We are judging a class, not a best MLG pro ultra player, who can pull insane stunts.
    It is just like if we were judging a cars. One is fast, one is slow, but a exceptionally good driver can win in a slow car.

    Placing NB at tier S would simply mean that 99,99% of NB mains are somehow magically bad players and they need to L2P which is hard to believe imho.
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on November 17, 2019 11:57AM
  • ku5h
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    aaylas wrote: »
    To be clear, the reason stamblades are S-tier in your opinion is because a stamblade was able to (1) beat you in a duel open-world (2) using a combination of fighters' guild and weapon abilities? I love the ESO forums.

    It's the NB toolkit that allow those skills to be so effective. Any other class would fail miserably using that combination.
  • Cirantille
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    Nerf ballista
  • nesakinter
    nesakinter
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    hakan wrote: »
    Yea yea yea. X Class is the best cuz x player plays it look!

    What happened to "you cant balance the game around duels cuz its not a representative of the real pvp" arguments?

    How about when stamblade was best pve class but it was hard to reach to that point and everyone said "its not even hard everyone can do it" then it got nerfed, leaving stamblade with mediocre dps and hardest rotation?

    Every class can hit Stamblade burst, snap out of the illusion.

    I am not asking for nerfs. I know that the class is all over the place and has some hilariously bad skills. But what I am saying the class is S-tier solo PvP inspite of that, even though the class is very hard to use effectively.
  • Vlad9425
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    Every class is S Tier when played by a great player. I much prefer my Stamplar for Solo play now because it has a much higher burst than my NB and fantastic defense. Also the screenshot you provided where you took a full barrage of Ballista shots and fighters guild Spammables isn't proof of anything aside from your own inability to roll dodge or mitigate all of that damage. I've played Stamblade since launch and I can tell you right now that its not an easy class to play so if you're dying to them it means you're dying to a skilled player which isn't a class issue.
  • Royalthought
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    aaylas wrote: »
    To be clear, the reason stamblades are S-tier in your opinion is because a stamblade was able to (1) beat you in a duel open-world (2) using a combination of fighters' guild and weapon abilities? I love the ESO forums.

    The forums... No words really.

    Normally: Players get killed, run to the forums and scream a class is OP. They're categorized as bad players. (they still get nerfs tho)

    New: The concept of losing and going to the forums.. BUT, claiming only the top .000001% shares this opinion, but the class that beat you is "S Tier." Reversing the "bad player" accusation and "S tier" is much more subtle than OP. Pretty clever.

    A class nerfed every patch, lost a long list a buffs, yet because they replaced class skills with weapon/guild skills, they didn't lose anything? Seems legit.... What's not to love?
  • nesakinter
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    I dont think that NB has strong defences, as Cloak is extremely easy to counter. Sure, if you dont counter it it feels strong, but if you do counter it (any aoe, Haunting Curse, detect pots, mages light/ expert hunter, etc, it would take a separate thread to mention every single hard counter), it is an automatic hard counter, negating the skill. NB has to cloak again, wasting recurses, so if they are stam NB the can cast it maybe like 3 times till they run out of magicka.

    As for Shadow image it is (on paper) one of the best mobility skills (I think only streak or Mist Form beats it), but most of the time in game this skill was bugged and I do believe it is still bugged, making it extremely unreliable.

    As for the NB on S tier, it is imho just not there. A or B at best. We are judging a class, not a best MLG pro ultra player, who can pull insane stunts.
    It is just like if we were judging a cars. One is fast, one is slow, but a exceptionally good driver can win in a slow car.

    Placing NB at tier S would simply mean that 99,99% of NB mains are somehow magically bad players and they need to L2P which is hard to believe imho.
    aaylas wrote: »
    To be clear, the reason stamblades are S-tier in your opinion is because a stamblade was able to (1) beat you in a duel open-world (2) using a combination of fighters' guild and weapon abilities? I love the ESO forums.

    The forums... No words really.

    Normally: Players get killed, run to the forums and scream a class is OP. They're categorized as bad players. (they still get nerfs tho)

    New: The concept of losing and going to the forums.. BUT, claiming only the top .000001% shares this opinion, but the class that beat you is "S Tier." Reversing the "bad player" accusation and "S tier" is much more subtle than OP. Pretty clever.

    A class nerfed every patch, lost a long list a buffs, yet because they replaced class skills with weapon/guild skills, they didn't lose anything? Seems legit.... What's not to love?

    @Tommy_The_Gun @Royalthought Complaining about the wrong things is what got NBs in this situation. You may think I hate NBs or something, but I actually want them to shine again. You can deny the power of cloak or shadow image all you want, but I can immediately show you several clips of Nbs successfully making a joke out of all their counters.

    Incap is a bad ultimate compared to things like Onslaught, Crescent sweep or Leap. Half of their buffs are on useless skills. Major brut/sorcery on Sap essence/power extraction, which is useless for that purpose. Mark is a waste of bar-space for any build that doesnt rely Snipe. All three class spammables Surprise attack/concealed, Swallow soul, Power extraction have been nerfed to mediocrity to the point in several cases, guild and weapon skills are straight out better. Merciless/Relentless is all over the place and has a useless heal. Ambush is the worst gap-closer with the laggy animation and is the only gap closer in the game that didn't get a speed buff few patches ago. There are more PvP stamblades using Meditate than their own class sustain skill. Stamblades as a whole are useless in group PvP and beaten soundly by other stamina classes in PvE in both single target and cleave dps.

    But, unless stamblades step up their game and accept their strength in things they are best at, they will never get buffed in things where it is needed like utility and support. Say, devs take the case of average nbs and buff them for solo where they already dominate and leave useless in groups pvp and pve, it will do more harm to nbs than good. That will recreate the magplar overbuffing situation, which will cause massive backlash from the community which we have seen during the Incap unbreakable silence change and result in the utter destruction of NBs in solo combat next patch and leave them useless in groupplay as well.

    NB does need nerfs or buffs in solo combats. It desperately needs fixes, so it does not need to depend of external skills to simulate their old self as well as more sensible skills for their buffs and group utility. That will leave them as the beast they are in solo combat while giving groups a reason to run stamblades.

    So what do you want? Three months of superpower followed by total uselessness or a well-rounded class that can be effective in all styles of play as long as the player can live upto the skillcap required by the class.
  • Iskiab
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    Okay....

    OP runs 40k resists in pvp and thinks imbalancing one stat at the expense of all others should make him tanky
    - gets hit with onslaught

    OP makes several mistakes pointed out by players and says, 'well usually stamblades are weak so it'd work'.
    - no no, it's not a ME issues, it's stamblades

    OP points to someone making no mistakes and admits making mistakes and loses
    - it's stamblades are S tier, my class is obviously worse because stamblades should not be a forgiving class and mine should be

    OP does a 1vX against the same class and then points to the one player playing that class who beat him as rationale that that same class is one of the top tier in the game
    - no, using an ultimate that makes me immobile is a great strategy right after getting onslaughted

    Okay... I think the main take away is a lot of people who think they're experts are not.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • precambria
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    Notice how not a single one of the things that hit you are nightblade spells, what were you afk or something?
  • xenowarrior92eb17_ESO
    xenowarrior92eb17_ESO
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    so what u say is...nerf nb? ...
  • Deathlord92
    Deathlord92
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    All this proves is you don’t know how to roll dodge nothing in your recap is even a nb skill 😒
  • Fur_like_snow
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    I’m assuming the 12x hit on ballista is the full duration? Ballista lasts 4.4 seconds. Templar ult last 4 seconds(the healing part). Major protection seems to last for 7? All this damage occurred when major protection was up? I’m just tying to figure out a timeline here because I see combat lasting at least 4.4 seconds not the 3 gcd that’s suggested by the OP.
  • hakan
    hakan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    nesakinter wrote: »
    hakan wrote: »
    Yea yea yea. X Class is the best cuz x player plays it look!

    What happened to "you cant balance the game around duels cuz its not a representative of the real pvp" arguments?

    How about when stamblade was best pve class but it was hard to reach to that point and everyone said "its not even hard everyone can do it" then it got nerfed, leaving stamblade with mediocre dps and hardest rotation?

    Every class can hit Stamblade burst, snap out of the illusion.

    I am not asking for nerfs. I know that the class is all over the place and has some hilariously bad skills. But what I am saying the class is S-tier solo PvP inspite of that, even though the class is very hard to use effectively.

    i didnt say you asked for nerfs. my comment is all over the place so i understand you missunderstand me.

    And yeah i actually agree with you.

    what i mean is the best player playing his/her doesnt represent the class( considering the nerfs lately, "its hard but its best when played by best, its best" doesnt mean anything.)
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