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Suggestion: Normalize Colors

hope0burns
hope0burns
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Hey, all. Are you tired of finding a great mix of armor pieces only to find that Every. Single. ONE. of them looks completely different in terms of color despite having the exact same color applied to them? Are you tired of having your creativity stifled by the random texture shades that different armors have? Don't want to look like a clown despite the fact your armor is, according to the game, just one color?

If you answered something akin to "yes" to any of the former questions then maybe you, too, want normalized colors.

As a bit of an aside before I get into it further, regardless of whether you like my following suggestions or not, one thing I feel we can all agree upon is that dye colors need to be able to be normalized in some way, having, for example, Essence Green, Julianos White, and Divine Gold all look the same across your entire outfit is something that just, simply, should be. If you don't like how I propose to accomplish this or can think of ways to improve upon my suggestions then, by all means, say so, maybe a good enough idea will spring up and be easy enough to implement that they'll do it.

With that in mind, I feel that most would agree that what I'm calling the "underlying textures" are an important part of the feel of any armor, this, undoubtedly, includes the color depth and shade that naturally comes on the armor, as well. Yet, for a player, if they don't want to wear a whole set and want to mix and match they often can't properly do the "match" part. To allow players to better match, it seems that the simplest to use method of normalizing colors would be to have each dye essentially overwrite the aspects of each item that's being dyed that would normally make different items of different sets look like a different color despite having their color all set to the same color. Basically, what I'm saying, is make Essence Green overwrite the unique aspects and look the same across all materials, (metal, leather cloth.)

However, I propose another option. An option that would let us keep the unique attributes and, in a sense, make our own custom sets via those mysterious arbitrary "underlying textures." Sound a little convoluted? Let me explain.

So, some context along with reestablishing what we already know: Every piece is a part of a specific set, for the most part, every set (or at least most) have their own unique "underlying texture," for example, there's Psijic armor, Ebony armor, Breton armor, et cetera, et cetera. All of the "underlying textures" of these sets arbitrarily change the colors in a preset way in order to best match the set, meaning Ebony's Essence Green won't look anything like Psijic's Essence Green and so on. As you can imagine, or already know, this makes it difficult for the discerning style-focused player to properly mix and match. Making them, often times, have to settle for various pieces being a shade or so darker or lighter than other pieces after a long and frustrating process of "shade hunting" or have to stick to set pieces they don't actually want.

So, the other option I'm proposing, allow these sort of "underlying textures," to be applied in a similar manner to how you select an outfit. That is, once you unlock a piece of a set, allow the player to apply the unlock set's "underlying texture" to all non-set pieces via a drop down menu, essentially overwriting the "underlying texture" of every other non-set piece and, in a way, making the non-set pieces appear to, at the very least, better match the chosen set. This will allow you to mix and match all the pieces while still having them all be the same color, shade, and intensity. For example, you could want to mix and match a few different sets but have Ebony as your "primary," you could then, from a drop down on one of the screens (dye, outfit, etc.) choose Ebony and that set's "underlying texture" would overwrite the "underlying texture" of all the other pieces so that all the colors you apply, including the "Mixed" colors, would look the exact same across your entire outfit thus letting your outfit look as if it were all part of the same set, in this case Ebony, in terms of material color, color shade, and color intensity.
Edited by hope0burns on November 14, 2019 3:54AM
  • nafensoriel
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    /snipsnip
    This would actually be a step back graphically.
    The materials are different because they are actually different thanks to physics-based rendering.

    If you removed PBR you would basically go back to how textures were rendered in the 90s... let's not go back in time.

  • hope0burns
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    /snipsnip
    This would actually be a step back graphically.
    The materials are different because they are actually different thanks to physics-based rendering.

    If you removed PBR you would basically go back to how textures were rendered in the 90s... let's not go back in time.

    Why not? Doesn't seem like an improvement, really.

    On another note, if that's the case why wouldn't my second suggestion work? Apply the specific rendering process of a set to an entire outfit save for any pieces that already have it? That would allow for a much more homogenized looks across the board and allow people to use styles they had no use for previously due to the weird coloration problems.
    Edited by hope0burns on November 14, 2019 4:15AM
  • zyk
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    I would not want the system to be more robust than it already is because additional features come at a cost. Cosmetics in ESO already have a very significant performance impact. What you're proposing is not practical.

    This isn't a supposed to be a dress up game first and foremost. We don't need more customization options. Characters can be pretty enough.
  • Acrolas
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    They are the same colors. But they're not dyes.

    They're pigments. And the distinction between the two is why the same color changes between styles and weights. Pigments physically coat something. Dyes chemically bond within something.

    So it's calling them dyes that incorrect, not the way in which they behave. The pigmentation is generally accurate.
    signing off
  • Darkenarlol
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    i've started to answer and it turned out into a wall of text

    with a lot of words like "personal opinion and taste",

    "overcomplicated unneeded system that may ruin allready

    not greatest server performance" etc etc

    so i deleted it and gonna post the short version -

    TL;DR: (oh i actually did =/)
    no, ty
  • Naftal
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    /snipsnip
    This would actually be a step back graphically.
    The materials are different because they are actually different thanks to physics-based rendering.

    If you removed PBR you would basically go back to how textures were rendered in the 90s... let's not go back in time.

    PBR requires the option to change the material types or it's not an improvement.
  • hope0burns
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    zyk wrote: »
    I would not want the system to be more robust than it already is because additional features come at a cost. Cosmetics in ESO already have a very significant performance impact. What you're proposing is not practical.

    This isn't a supposed to be a dress up game first and foremost. We don't need more customization options. Characters can be pretty enough.

    How is it impractical? What cost, other than development hours for the department doing the art, and how would it have a "very significant performance impact?" If it can already handle an outfit displaying multiple different set renders at once why would making an outfit display only one set render impact performance significantly?

    Instead of calling each specific render, a blanket render for a chosen outfit seems like it'd, if anything, make even less of an impact on performance.

    To the person talking about server performance I can't imagine how this would really affect that, as far as I'm aware, aren't cosmetics displayed client side? The server isn't doing any rendering, it's just sending information to your client on what to display. As you can have multiple sets displaying the same colors in different fashions having an outfit display all colors in the same fashion would either have no render-speed impact beyond already implemented customization or possibly a positive render-speed impact.

    As to the person talking about how real world pigments and dyes work, that's a nice bit of irrelevant information. I don't care how colors work in the real world when I'm making suggestions for a video game. There's no reason that the things that create the color variations on sets can't be applied in a blanket fashion across all pieces of an outfit at once or just simply overwritten by what the game officially calls "DYES." One or the other.
    Edited by hope0burns on November 14, 2019 4:42AM
  • zyk
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    How is it impractical? What cost, other than development hours for the department doing the art, and how would it have a "very significant performance impact?" If it can already handle an outfit displaying multiple different set renders at once why would making an outfit display only one set render impact performance significantly?

    The cost would be processing the material options when the art assets for a character is loaded. For one character, it's no big deal. For dozens, it's significant and would present itself as stutter.

    We saw this when the outfit system was introduced because characters became far more customized. Many players feel significant client stutter when entering and leaving busy areas. This stutter did not exist in ESO until 2018.

    This stutter is merely annoying in PVE overland zones, but in Cyrodiil it can and does get players killed.

    It also makes clients less responsive to the server while this occurs, exacerbating server-side performance issues. Some might wonder about how client processing might affect server performance. The reason I say that is because the faster the clients respond to the server, the sooner it can complete operations involving that character. There are also server-side processes that will be waiting for inputs from clients. It may be minor, but when the server is already overwhelmed, that kind of minor performance issue will have an outsized effect.

    ESO is a game played in a huge number of ways by a wide variety of players. I understand many are casual and play it socially, so would gladly trait some client performance for better visuals or more options. But other players are combat focused and good combat requires a responsive, optimized client.
    Edited by zyk on November 14, 2019 5:20AM
  • hope0burns
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    zyk wrote: »
    hope0burns wrote: »
    How is it impractical? What cost, other than development hours for the department doing the art, and how would it have a "very significant performance impact?" If it can already handle an outfit displaying multiple different set renders at once why would making an outfit display only one set render impact performance significantly?

    The cost would be processing the material options when the art assets for a character is loaded. For one character, it's no big deal. For dozens, it's significant and would present itself as stutter.

    We saw this when the outfit system was introduced because characters became far more customized. Many players feel significant client stutter when entering and leaving busy areas. This stutter did not exist in ESO until 2018.

    This stutter is merely annoying in PVE overland zones, but in Cyrodiil it can and does get players killed. It also makes clients less responsive to the server while this occurs, exacerbating server-side performance issues.

    The client already does this and, if anything, not having to render the unique aspects of multiple sets and, instead, overwriting a single unique aspect over an entire outfit would cut performance costs. Either way there's no way this would make it worse than it already is.
  • zyk
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    The client already does this and, if anything, not having to render the unique aspects of multiple sets and, instead, overwriting a single unique aspect over an entire outfit would cut performance costs. Either way there's no way this would make it worse than it already is.

    The more options there are, the more processing that is required. Fewer options would result in less processing. The client can process 50 characters wearing exactly the same outfit easier than it can 50 different ones. You're proposing adding another layer of complexity -- which would be a great feature in something like Second Life, but not a fast paced large scale combat MMO like ESO.
    Edited by zyk on November 14, 2019 5:30AM
  • hope0burns
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    zyk wrote: »
    hope0burns wrote: »
    The client already does this and, if anything, not having to render the unique aspects of multiple sets and, instead, overwriting a single unique aspect over an entire outfit would cut performance costs. Either way there's no way this would make it worse than it already is.

    The more options there are, the more processing that is required. Fewer options would result in less processing. The client can process 50 characters wearing exactly the same outfit easier than it can 50 different ones. You're proposing adding another layer of complexity -- which would be a great feature in something like Second Life, but not a fast paced large scale combat MMO like ESO.

    Not really, if anything I'm proposing taking away complexity. As of current if a player isn't wearing an entire suit of the same gear then every unique detail has to be processed from each and every unique piece. However, this would, essentially, strip that away by homogenizing all of the pieces. Thus taking no more processing time or power than a person wearing all pieces of a single set would take. Having the renderer ignore individual pieces and set a specific constant couldn't in any way take more processing than having a character in two or more pieces of different set gear with each set having its own unique materials and render requirements.
  • zyk
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    I'm not talking about rendering each frame. When an art asset is loaded, many its elements require once-per-load processing. Compared to 2014, the client has to do much more work than it used to. What you've proposed would add another option to take into consideration for every customizable element of an outfit when they are loaded by the client.

    The processing required for what you propose in itself is no big deal at all. But added to everything else -- in a game in which players are already experiencing stutter from asset management -- it becomes significant in certain important scenarios. Like when an enemy army of 50 rides up with 30 unique mounts, 120 different individual styles for each armor piece, 15 costumes, etc..

    That can cause my client to pause for up to a few seconds in the middle of a fight -- plus it's doing it to everyone I was already fighting with/against, which makes it more difficult.

    What you're proposing certainly would not simplify anything and there would be no opportunity for improved performance.
  • Ei8htba11
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    Better idea might be to standardise the lighting when in an Outfit Station. Too often different ambient lighting/time of day effects can give differing previews, depending on which station you're at screwing up colour matching/choice.

    I imagine it would be easier to implement as well.
  • hope0burns
    hope0burns
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    zyk wrote: »
    I'm not talking about rendering each frame. When an art asset is loaded, many its elements require once-per-load processing. Compared to 2014, the client has to do much more work than it used to. What you've proposed would add another option to take into consideration for every customizable element of an outfit when they are loaded by the client.

    The processing required for what you propose in itself is no big deal at all. But added to everything else -- in a game in which players are already experiencing stutter from asset management -- it becomes significant in certain important scenarios. Like when an enemy army of 50 rides up with 30 unique mounts, 120 different individual styles for each armor piece, 15 costumes, etc..

    That can cause my client to pause for up to a few seconds in the middle of a fight -- plus it's doing it to everyone I was already fighting with/against, which makes it more difficult.

    What you're proposing certainly would not simplify anything and there would be no opportunity for improved performance.

    First, I wasn't talking about per-frame rendering, either. Second, I don't see how it wouldn't simplify anything. Instead of, per your example, the 120 different individual styles in your post the client would have to render in fewer because there'd be players who now have the individual unique pieces all adhering to one single unique physics based rendering style. That would, at best, reduce the issue and, at worst, do absolutely nothing negative or positive in terms of performance.

    As for you, eightball, why not both? That's not really a better idea as much as it is just another good idea. In other games with character customization they have your character appear in a specific out-of-world scene with its own lighting, while still being very much standing in one place in world, some even allow for different lighting choices. While not the topic or issue I'm addressing at the moment, I don't see why something similar can't be done at an outfit station.
  • Grianasteri
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    Hey, all. Are you tired of finding a great mix of armor pieces only to find that Every. Single. ONE. of them looks completely different in terms of color despite having the exact same color applied to them? Are you tired of having your creativity stifled by the random texture shades that different armors have? Don't want to look like a clown despite the fact your armor is, according to the game, just one color?

    If you answered something akin to "yes" to any of the former questions then maybe you, too, want normalized colors.

    As a bit of an aside before I get into it further, regardless of whether you like my following suggestions or not, one thing I feel we can all agree upon is that dye colors need to be able to be normalized in some way, having, for example, Essence Green, Julianos White, and Divine Gold all look the same across your entire outfit is something that just, simply, should be. If you don't like how I propose to accomplish this or can think of ways to improve upon my suggestions then, by all means, say so, maybe a good enough idea will spring up and be easy enough to implement that they'll do it.

    With that in mind, I feel that most would agree that what I'm calling the "underlying textures" are an important part of the feel of any armor, this, undoubtedly, includes the color depth and shade that naturally comes on the armor, as well. Yet, for a player, if they don't want to wear a whole set and want to mix and match they often can't properly do the "match" part. To allow players to better match, it seems that the simplest to use method of normalizing colors would be to have each dye essentially overwrite the aspects of each item that's being dyed that would normally make different items of different sets look like a different color despite having their color all set to the same color. Basically, what I'm saying, is make Essence Green overwrite the unique aspects and look the same across all materials, (metal, leather cloth.)

    However, I propose another option. An option that would let us keep the unique attributes and, in a sense, make our own custom sets via those mysterious arbitrary "underlying textures." Sound a little convoluted? Let me explain.

    So, some context along with reestablishing what we already know: Every piece is a part of a specific set, for the most part, every set (or at least most) have their own unique "underlying texture," for example, there's Psijic armor, Ebony armor, Breton armor, et cetera, et cetera. All of the "underlying textures" of these sets arbitrarily change the colors in a preset way in order to best match the set, meaning Ebony's Essence Green won't look anything like Psijic's Essence Green and so on. As you can imagine, or already know, this makes it difficult for the discerning style-focused player to properly mix and match. Making them, often times, have to settle for various pieces being a shade or so darker or lighter than other pieces after a long and frustrating process of "shade hunting" or have to stick to set pieces they don't actually want.

    So, the other option I'm proposing, allow these sort of "underlying textures," to be applied in a similar manner to how you select an outfit. That is, once you unlock a piece of a set, allow the player to apply the unlock set's "underlying texture" to all non-set pieces via a drop down menu, essentially overwriting the "underlying texture" of every other non-set piece and, in a way, making the non-set pieces appear to, at the very least, better match the chosen set. This will allow you to mix and match all the pieces while still having them all be the same color, shade, and intensity. For example, you could want to mix and match a few different sets but have Ebony as your "primary," you could then, from a drop down on one of the screens (dye, outfit, etc.) choose Ebony and that set's "underlying texture" would overwrite the "underlying texture" of all the other pieces so that all the colors you apply, including the "Mixed" colors, would look the exact same across your entire outfit thus letting your outfit look as if it were all part of the same set, in this case Ebony, in terms of material color, color shade, and color intensity.

    Absolutely yes.

    You have highlighted and described one of the core issues and frustrations with the aesthetics of ESO "outfitting".

    To everyone commenting that addressing this would be a backwards step, or not possible, or too complex, YOU. ARE. WRONG.

    You are unequivocally wrong because all we need to do is look at how games like Warframe handle this, or more recently Anthem. Both have advanced customisation for character/gear aesthetics, both render the textures and colours fantastically, neither system is overly complex once one gets used to it.

    If these games can do it, I see no reason at all ESO cannot.

    It may be that the OP has written an overly long or complex sounding explanation. Granted ESO is not Warframe or Anthem, but the principle and system is clearly possible and given how important fashion is for so many players, it seems long overdue that this was addressed.
  • Ei8htba11
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    ...As for you, eightball, why not both? That's not really a better idea as much as it is just another good idea.

    Thank you :)

    I meant better in what we might realistically expect them to implement. I was a bit vague on that point, sorry.

    Probably we won't get either :\
  • svartorn
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    /snipsnip
    This would actually be a step back graphically.
    The materials are different because they are actually different thanks to physics-based rendering.

    If you removed PBR you would basically go back to how textures were rendered in the 90s... let's not go back in time.

    I'm not entirely sure I agree.

    If you make, for example a full set of heavy Dwemer armor and a Dwemer sword and shield, then dye them all the same color - let's say Divine Gold, then the armor is all gold and the shield is dark blue.

    You're saying that's okay? And that making the shield the same color as the armor... would be a step back in time?
  • nafensoriel
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    hope0burns wrote: »
    hope0burns wrote: »
    /snipsnip
    This would actually be a step back graphically.
    The materials are different because they are actually different thanks to physics-based rendering.

    If you removed PBR you would basically go back to how textures were rendered in the 90s... let's not go back in time.

    Why not? Doesn't seem like an improvement, really.

    On another note, if that's the case why wouldn't my second suggestion work? Apply the specific rendering process of a set to an entire outfit save for any pieces that already have it? That would allow for a much more homogenized looks across the board and allow people to use styles they had no use for previously due to the weird coloration problems.

    PBR simulates materials. Before we simulated this we had to use some really funky hacks to make things "look" metallic or cloth-like. With PBR we can just define material and then everything we apply that to will be that thing. The trouble is PBR is really really broad. Its AWESOME technology for replicating reality.

    If you've ever seen Anthem they have a very open-ended PBR system. You can swap materials on items and as such drastically change the look of your "character". In ESO they didn't build the system around PBR because the game didn't launch with it and frankly there are way to many items in the game with the style system. You cant just crib in something that is fundamental to how EVERYTHING YOU SEE is displayed.

    What you frankly see isn't coloration problems but what the artist who designed those colors selected. It's artistic choice limited by size and design. Yes ESO could limit materials to just 3-5 types and homogenize things but the end result would be a degradation of both realism and graphics quality.
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