Tribunal or Reclamations

Cirantille · November 2019

I am curious to know your answers. And a huge disclaimer: I am not an expert in Dunmer history, I read about it in game/wikipedia but still.
So please be nice and more like explanative in your answers.
I don't have a rigid view in this, I am just going to put what I believed instinctly after my short readings.

So as I understood those 3 guys in Tribunal used the heart of Lorkhan and tools even though they were not instructed to and became gods. How did Dunmer justify believing in them? They disobeyed, plus there could be any other 3 guys who seized that opportunity and became gods.
They also lose their godhoods later. Why would people still worship them?

On the other hand there are proven-real daedric princes, and Azura still talks about Morrowind with love. (Even after cursing Dunmer, she still didn't abandon them)
Also as I understood, tribunal looks down on Ashlanders (also exiled them?), because they are savage, uneducated etc

It all just doesn't seem fair to Ashlanders while they are actually following the real daedric princes in their culture

On a totally irrelevant side note: Dunmer looks really cool, maybe it is good that they were cursed with this bloody eyes and ashen skin colour!

TelvanniWizard · November 2019

Reclamations (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala)

It's like, super evident. Vivec's lame, Almalexia is a proud and crazy hag, and Sil is kinda good, I guess.

SidraWillowsky · November 2019

Tribunal (Almalexia, Vivec, Sotha Sil)

I am fascinated with the Tribunal. Their power was obtained in a vile and selfish manner, but I do think that they did a lot of good for a long time.

For all things lore-related, check out the TES lore subreddit. They tend to talk a LOT about this stuff, which is great since it's so interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore

Actual lore buffs, feel free to correct me, but this is my understanding:

I think that the Chimer-turned-Dunmer believed the Tribunal when they came back from Red Mountain because the power that they wielded was so strong. They explained that the darkened skin and red eyes set them apart and was actually some sort of gift. The people trusted them because they had had very close ties to Nerevar.

Re. the Ashlanders- I think that you have the causal direction wrong. The Tribunal didn't start to dislike the Ashlanders because the Ashlanders worship Daedra; the Ashlanders actively eschewed the Tribunal and wrote them off (correctly) as false gods. Don't feel bad for them- they are actively against the Tribunal.

After the fall of the Tribunal they were relegated from godhood to sainthood- Lord Vivec became Saint Vivec, etc. The people returned to worshiping the three Daedra after the fall of the Tribunal- I believe that it took about ten years from the time that they lost their power to their demise, so it happened fairly quickly.

Loves_guars · November 2019

Tribunal (Almalexia, Vivec, Sotha Sil)

When I played Morrowind TES III, I was of course super pro Azura, and hated Vivec and friends. ESO did the impossible for me, it changed my mind!

First of all, you get to see how this "real gods", the daedra really are. They are horrendous, just play Summerset and see what a "good daedra", Meridia does. Same with Azura really, cursing a whole race because ... someone did not blindly follow her instructions? They are like the Old Testament God really.

On the other hand, you get to see what Vivec and Sotha Sil do (or try to do) for the Dunmer. And these are real things. Even with Vivec, an egomaniac, you can see the City being build, a sign of progress.

When you talk to Sotha Sil, you can see he really wants a better world for people, and it is his goal, maybe a bit weird in that mechanical world, but still, he tries. You can listen to his memories and see a person that used to have a sister and suffered a lot at the hands of Daedra. I can fully understand why he gave the middle finger to Azura and Nerevar, and chose to investigate and use the Tools to build something better.

Almalexia.. meh, for now, she only reminds me of the Daedra.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · November 2019

Don't be racist...DEATH TO ALL ELVES!

Khajiit power reign supreme!

Hotel6 · November 2019

The 8 (9 post Talos). Unfaithful inferior elves.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · November 2019

Reclamations (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala)

They both have their good and bad sides. Doing both good and horrible things.

vestahls · November 2019

Tribunal (Almalexia, Vivec, Sotha Sil)

If it were the Tribunal against the Four Corners, it might be a challenge, but the "Good Daedra" are just no competition to Almsivi, if only because so much good writing went into the Tribunal, whereas the Reclamations are all kind of dull (with the possible exception of that one time Boethiah ate and sh@ Trinimac, but that's really the only remarkable thing about any one of all three Daedra).

But the Tribunal just have an amazing backstory. Three war heroes find the heart of a dead god inside a mountain, which the Dwemer tried to use to make themselves divine, and for it they kill their best friend - heroic, good, brave Nerevar who they all loved. They do it either out of greed, or out of the desire to really look after the Chimer in a way the Daedra could not, and either way it's good motivation.

And by using the Doom Drum, they elevate themselves to divinity, achieving CHIM - which just makes them realise that they don't really exist, but that they, and the whole world, are actually inside the dream of a god. In spite of this, they insist on being individuals, on existing, and this is what gives them divinity (rather than making them disappear, like the Dwemer did).

So they create a perfect society for their people, fend off invasions, negotiate the withdrawal of all major Daedra from interfering in mortal lives... But tragically, as time goes on, the knowledge that they're all just in a dream makes them more distant from the world. Then their old friend Dagoth Ur wakes up, seizes the heart of Lorkhan, and eventually they are brought down by the reincarnation of the friend they once killed, causing a volcanic eruption, destroying the Dunmeri society they worked so hard for, and basically making the whole island of Vvardenfell unlivable.

It's just very interesting, and a good story! None of the Daedra have something to match, they just exist as sneaky and plotting and arrogant spirits.

Even in ESO, where you don't really get to explore the truth behind the Tribunal, there's Sotha Sil who has a robot mini-world that he wants to use to re-make the planet, and that's cool enough on its own. Vivec... has a big spear. And ok Almalexia is a bit useless and nobody really likes her, but she's the only thing dragging Almsivi down.

As for Ashlanders, they are filthy savage scum, so it doesn't matter what they think.

gepe87 · November 2019

Tribunal (Almalexia, Vivec, Sotha Sil)

They cared about their people. Although isnt clear what happen the Red Mountain.

dcam86b14_ESO · November 2019

Reclamations (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala)

False gods deserve what they eventually get lmao

redgreensunset · November 2019

Tribunal (Almalexia, Vivec, Sotha Sil)

I am by no means a Tribunal fan, but when it comes to a choice between [insert powerful and kinda dickish mortal here] and [insert any Daedric Prince here] I'll always come down on the side of the mortals.
Yes the Tribunal are various degrees of *** true, but for one thing they care about their people which is more that can be said of any Daedric Prince, yes that includes Azura. Daedric Princes literally are not human (or mortal) they manifestations of the primordial chaos, they want nothing good for mortal kind, ever. If they're occasionally benign even generous it's because they have a bigger gig going on.
Sil is the only one of the Tribunal I even remotely like. Vivec is profoundly aggravating and I spent the entire Deshaan storyline where you deal with Almalexia considering if it was worth just skipping ahead in the story. But if the alternative is any Daedric Prince then I'll still take these wankers any day.

Chicharron · November 2019

I remember when I did the mission to go to Clockwork City, This was the first thing I thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4OOw22hKR4

Sylvermynx · November 2019

Should have had a "neither" option. I haven't any use for either Tribunal or Reclamations. In fact, I really haven't ever had any use at all for the daedra - and I've been playing TES since Arena released....

Varana · November 2019

Tribunal (Almalexia, Vivec, Sotha Sil)

Cirantille wrote: »

So as I understood those 3 guys in Tribunal used the heart of Lorkhan and tools even though they were not instructed to and became gods. How did Dunmer justify believing in them? They disobeyed, plus there could be any other 3 guys who seized that opportunity and became gods.
They also lose their godhoods later. Why would people still worship them?

Until the end of TES3:Morrowind (i.e. many centuries after ESO), it was not really known what happened at Red Mountain, and in typicaly ESO fashion, even Morrowind didn't completely clear that up. The Dunmer didn't know about the disobedience - and if they knew, I'm not sure they would've cared. They don't strike me as a particularly lawful culture. Instead, might makes right, at least sometimes.
More importantly, no one really knew how exactly the Tribunal became gods. "They used the heart of Lorkhan" is out-of-game knowledge for almost everyone at least until the end of TES3.

Losing their godhood comes much later than anything in ESO. For ESO and all other TES games except Skyrim, that loss of power hasn't taken place yet or (during TES4:Oblivion) didn't have time yet to effect widespread changes. Only during TES5:Skyrim would the loss of the Tribunal's divinity have resulted in major changes in Dunmer belief.

Cirantille wrote: »

On the other hand there are proven-real daedric princes, and Azura still talks about Morrowind with love. (Even after cursing Dunmer, she still didn't abandon them)

Existence only doesn't deserve worship. Sure, the Daedric Princes exist, but they are alien to Nirn, and their motivations dubious in the best cases. Daedric Princes, while powerful, are also notoriously unreliable, mad, or hostile to mortals. Even Azura "caring" for the Dunmer is a double-edged sword, at best. With the Tribunal, on the other hand, the Dunmer have gods of their own who live among them and care about their people, and wield similar power. There's a reason why the Tribunal often stress their status as Living Gods.

Indoril_Nerevar · November 2019

Reclamations (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala)

Next time, put this into the LORE category for me. Thank you.

If this was put into the LORE category I would feel more compelled to enlighten all of us here today. But, instead I will save that for another time...

However, I will leave you with an old figure of speech, to remind you of what we no longer teach:

"History is written by Victors."

Cirantille · November 2019

You all have good points, that is why I said I was no expert and rigid in my opinion. On one side these guys who seize the power by disobeying on another side there are daedra who might not care for races. It is hard to choose between and decide which one is worse I guess

Cirantille · November 2019

vestahls wrote: »

If it were the Tribunal against the Four Corners, it might be a challenge, but the "Good Daedra" are just no competition to Almsivi, if only because so much good writing went into the Tribunal, whereas the Reclamations are all kind of dull (with the possible exception of that one time Boethiah ate and sh@ Trinimac, but that's really the only remarkable thing about any one of all three Daedra).

But the Tribunal just have an amazing backstory. Three war heroes find the heart of a dead god inside a mountain, which the Dwemer tried to use to make themselves divine, and for it they kill their best friend - heroic, good, brave Nerevar who they all loved. They do it either out of greed, or out of the desire to really look after the Chimer in a way the Daedra could not, and either way it's good motivation.

And by using the Doom Drum, they elevate themselves to divinity, achieving CHIM - which just makes them realise that they don't really exist, but that they, and the whole world, are actually inside the dream of a god. In spite of this, they insist on being individuals, on existing, and this is what gives them divinity (rather than making them disappear, like the Dwemer did).

So they create a perfect society for their people, fend off invasions, negotiate the withdrawal of all major Daedra from interfering in mortal lives... But tragically, as time goes on, the knowledge that they're all just in a dream makes them more distant from the world. Then their old friend Dagoth Ur wakes up, seizes the heart of Lorkhan, and eventually they are brought down by the reincarnation of the friend they once killed, causing a volcanic eruption, destroying the Dunmeri society they worked so hard for, and basically making the whole island of Vvardenfell unlivable.

It's just very interesting, and a good story! None of the Daedra have something to match, they just exist as sneaky and plotting and arrogant spirits.

Even in ESO, where you don't really get to explore the truth behind the Tribunal, there's Sotha Sil who has a robot mini-world that he wants to use to re-make the planet, and that's cool enough on its own. Vivec... has a big spear. And ok Almalexia is a bit useless and nobody really likes her, but she's the only thing dragging Almsivi down.

As for Ashlanders, they are filthy savage scum, so it doesn't matter what they think.

Why are the Ashlanders filthy savage? Asking it for real out of my curiosity

Indoril_Nerevar · November 2019

Reclamations (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala)

Cirantille wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

If it were the Tribunal against the Four Corners, it might be a challenge, but the "Good Daedra" are just no competition to Almsivi, if only because so much good writing went into the Tribunal, whereas the Reclamations are all kind of dull (with the possible exception of that one time Boethiah ate and sh@ Trinimac, but that's really the only remarkable thing about any one of all three Daedra).

But the Tribunal just have an amazing backstory. Three war heroes find the heart of a dead god inside a mountain, which the Dwemer tried to use to make themselves divine, and for it they kill their best friend - heroic, good, brave Nerevar who they all loved. They do it either out of greed, or out of the desire to really look after the Chimer in a way the Daedra could not, and either way it's good motivation.

And by using the Doom Drum, they elevate themselves to divinity, achieving CHIM - which just makes them realise that they don't really exist, but that they, and the whole world, are actually inside the dream of a god. In spite of this, they insist on being individuals, on existing, and this is what gives them divinity (rather than making them disappear, like the Dwemer did).

So they create a perfect society for their people, fend off invasions, negotiate the withdrawal of all major Daedra from interfering in mortal lives... But tragically, as time goes on, the knowledge that they're all just in a dream makes them more distant from the world. Then their old friend Dagoth Ur wakes up, seizes the heart of Lorkhan, and eventually they are brought down by the reincarnation of the friend they once killed, causing a volcanic eruption, destroying the Dunmeri society they worked so hard for, and basically making the whole island of Vvardenfell unlivable.

It's just very interesting, and a good story! None of the Daedra have something to match, they just exist as sneaky and plotting and arrogant spirits.

Even in ESO, where you don't really get to explore the truth behind the Tribunal, there's Sotha Sil who has a robot mini-world that he wants to use to re-make the planet, and that's cool enough on its own. Vivec... has a big spear. And ok Almalexia is a bit useless and nobody really likes her, but she's the only thing dragging Almsivi down.

As for Ashlanders, they are filthy savage scum, so it doesn't matter what they think.

Why are the Ashlanders filthy savage? Asking it for real out of my curiosity

The Ashlanders follow prophecies and/ or "the old ways". The Ashlanders and the Dunmer are both Chimeri. The reason neither of them no longer are today is the very reason The Tribunal has depicted them as lesser beings.

They, because of this, know the terrible truths of The Tribunal. Thus, they are mislead as savages and lessers by The Tribunal and all of their influence - for taking a path of non conformity, independence, and simply staying true to their old ways and to the "untold horrors" that this era knows not.

Cirantille · November 2019

Indoril_Nerevar wrote: »

Cirantille wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

If it were the Tribunal against the Four Corners, it might be a challenge, but the "Good Daedra" are just no competition to Almsivi, if only because so much good writing went into the Tribunal, whereas the Reclamations are all kind of dull (with the possible exception of that one time Boethiah ate and sh@ Trinimac, but that's really the only remarkable thing about any one of all three Daedra).

But the Tribunal just have an amazing backstory. Three war heroes find the heart of a dead god inside a mountain, which the Dwemer tried to use to make themselves divine, and for it they kill their best friend - heroic, good, brave Nerevar who they all loved. They do it either out of greed, or out of the desire to really look after the Chimer in a way the Daedra could not, and either way it's good motivation.

And by using the Doom Drum, they elevate themselves to divinity, achieving CHIM - which just makes them realise that they don't really exist, but that they, and the whole world, are actually inside the dream of a god. In spite of this, they insist on being individuals, on existing, and this is what gives them divinity (rather than making them disappear, like the Dwemer did).

So they create a perfect society for their people, fend off invasions, negotiate the withdrawal of all major Daedra from interfering in mortal lives... But tragically, as time goes on, the knowledge that they're all just in a dream makes them more distant from the world. Then their old friend Dagoth Ur wakes up, seizes the heart of Lorkhan, and eventually they are brought down by the reincarnation of the friend they once killed, causing a volcanic eruption, destroying the Dunmeri society they worked so hard for, and basically making the whole island of Vvardenfell unlivable.

It's just very interesting, and a good story! None of the Daedra have something to match, they just exist as sneaky and plotting and arrogant spirits.

Even in ESO, where you don't really get to explore the truth behind the Tribunal, there's Sotha Sil who has a robot mini-world that he wants to use to re-make the planet, and that's cool enough on its own. Vivec... has a big spear. And ok Almalexia is a bit useless and nobody really likes her, but she's the only thing dragging Almsivi down.

As for Ashlanders, they are filthy savage scum, so it doesn't matter what they think.

Why are the Ashlanders filthy savage? Asking it for real out of my curiosity

The Ashlanders follow the proclomations or "the old ways".

They, because of this, know the terrible truths of The Tribunal. Thus, they are mislead as savages and lessers by The Tribunal and all of their influence - for taking a path of non conformity, independence, and simply staying true to their old ways and to the "untold horrors" that this era knows not.

Oh I thought maybe he meant something else, yeah worshipping daedra is frowned upon but all Dunmer did at some point. That is why I found it culturally normal for them

Cirantille · November 2019

Since it is in their culture, that is why it seems unfair for Ashlanders. I mean all of a sudden they change it and exile Ashlanders for following the old religion. Obviously, freedom of religion is not a thing in Tamriel I guess

Indoril_Nerevar · November 2019

Reclamations (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala)

It is very unnfair.

The Tribunal had also made a pact; an agreement with The Daedric Princes. Limiting their Will and Power over Tamriel but not entirely. They did this once they obtained their new found power from the Heart of Lorkhan. There is much to tell about the War on Red Mountain and before.

It is, unquestionably and with no doubt, the most amazing peice of lore in The Elder Scrolls. It contains connections and links to everything important in the game, leaving many mysteries and answers to unveil and discover.

ArchMikem · November 2019

Reclamations (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala)

I only voted because of Lady Azurah, mother of Cats. Boethiah and Mephala can rot.

And frankly same with the Three, with an exception for Sotha Sil. He's the only one who didnt use the Heart's power to live out a childish fantasy of Godhood, to be revered by his people. He only cared about understanding the Aurbis.

Azurah is the only Daedra who isnt outright malevolent. If you don't cross her, she'll love and care for you fiercely. Not to mention she's the mythical creator of my favorite Race.

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Tribunal or Reclamations

Tribunal or Reclamations 39 votes