Intended or Not? (Cloak question)

Casterial · November 2019

If you use cloak and someone detect pots you and ults you (onslaught) you'll take 0 damage, they'll use all their ult, and get no buff.

I understand when you cloak and someone ults you, it acts like a dodge roll. However, when someone uses a detect potion and hits you with a direct damage ultimate like Onslaught, is the cloak intention to avoid all damage, even while detected?

The person casting Onslaught ends with the following:

0 ult
0 buffs
No damage

The person detected while in cloak:

Ignores all the damage.

Is the intention to do this? Or is it that detect pots actually don't detect you meaning that you're using ultimate when you shouldn't be able to?

If its the second one, then shouldn't we just be refunded ultimate/not cast?

What are your thoughts?

Iskiab · November 2019

Yup, all single target attacks miss. You need to use an aoe.

Casterial · November 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Yup, all single target attacks miss. You need to use an aoe.

But they're detected. So, should you be able to use a direct dmg? A detect pot, imo should work like Camouflage Hunter, shouldn't it? To deter from someone using ult on a target that technically is invulnerable?

D0PAMINE · November 2019

Casterial wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Yup, all single target attacks miss. You need to use an aoe.

But they're detected. So, should you be able to use a direct dmg? A detect pot, imo should work like Camouflage Hunter, shouldn't it? To deter from someone using ult on a target that technically is invulnerable?

Were you in combat with them before they cloaked?

Iskiab · November 2019

Casterial wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Yup, all single target attacks miss. You need to use an aoe.

But they're detected. So, should you be able to use a direct dmg? A detect pot, imo should work like Camouflage Hunter, shouldn't it? To deter from someone using ult on a target that technically is invulnerable?

I’m not sure how camouflage hunter works, but I’ve seen it multiple times that a single target ability won’t break stealth.

Especially against DKs, I’ll be rooted and they’ll be next to me missing with lashes.

I don’t know if it’s ideal, but everyone slots an aoe in pvp anyways. Lots of stuff can hit you like streak, etc. There are even sets like overwhelming surge that will break cloak constantly if a NB’s in range.

Best advice I can give is rather then focusing on things like tooltips when you make a spec, look at what other specs do and build to counter them.

Van_Winkle · November 2019

Somehow, when i use cloak and someone use detection potion - he can freely attack me with anything. But i have seen guys like in your video. This game is really strange sometimes.

MirkoZ · November 2019

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498031/why-no-one-is-reporting-that#latest

Casterial · November 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Yup, all single target attacks miss. You need to use an aoe.

But they're detected. So, should you be able to use a direct dmg? A detect pot, imo should work like Camouflage Hunter, shouldn't it? To deter from someone using ult on a target that technically is invulnerable?

I’m not sure how camouflage hunter works, but I’ve seen it multiple times that a single target ability won’t break stealth.

Especially against DKs, I’ll be rooted and they’ll be next to me missing with lashes.

I don’t know if it’s ideal, but everyone slots an aoe in pvp anyways. Lots of stuff can hit you like streak, etc. There are even sets like overwhelming surge that will break cloak constantly if a NB’s in range.

Best advice I can give is rather then focusing on things like tooltips when you make a spec, look at what other specs do and build to counter them.

Its not a matter of "building a better build" this is a legit "Bug" and not intended, camo hunter breaks stealth and makes them unable to stealth. I think cloak itself is just wonky.

Van_Winkle wrote: »

Somehow, when i use cloak and someone use detection potion - he can freely attack me with anything. But i have seen guys like in your video. This game is really strange sometimes.

Yeah, and no dev ever gives us insight.

MirkoZ wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498031/why-no-one-is-reporting-that#latest

+cc

Also, if they cloak right when you ultimate, or use a direct damage skill it completely misses but hits, it even says "0 damage" done. So if I use Onslaught right when someone cloaks it hits 0 damage, consumes all ultimate, and gives 0 buff.

Tommy_The_Gun · November 2019

Casterial wrote: »

What are your thoughts?

Very elaborate call for nerf attempt.

Casterial · November 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

What are your thoughts?

Very elaborate call for nerf attempt.

Nope, I'm wondering if it is an intention of cloak or not. There is always that NB that when they're mentioned cry that they think its a nerf attempt. No, its not.

Is this how cloak should be working, or is this just an issue with detection pots?

Casterial wrote: »

Also, if they cloak right when you ultimate, or use a direct damage skill it completely misses but hits, it even says "0 damage" done. So if I use Onslaught right when someone cloaks it hits 0 damage, consumes all ultimate, and gives 0 buff.

This seems intended, because Cloak is then a dodgeroll, but them being detected?

Lybal · November 2019

This is not about direct damage or single target attack abilities, this is about abilities with cast time and gapcloser.

This bug was present since they added detect pots, but you noticed them a lot more especially since Scalebreaker patch due to the addition of cast times on ultimates and Dizzy meta, and also because when you're in range to see someone with a detect pot, you usually don't need to use a gapcloser, and Snipers don't come in melee so they aren't affected a lot by that either.

I also tested with Detection Poison, and the problem is the same.

Casterial wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Yup, all single target attacks miss. You need to use an aoe.

But they're detected. So, should you be able to use a direct dmg? A detect pot, imo should work like Camouflage Hunter, shouldn't it? To deter from someone using ult on a target that technically is invulnerable?

Detect Pots and Camouflage Hunter got a huge difference : Camouflage Hunter breaks cloak and prevent the Nb to cloak again, which means everyone can hit the Nb, not only the one guy using Camouflage Hunter, it's not the same mechanic.

Imo it's clearly a bug - just not a very important bug until Scalebreaker - and especially problematic for ultimates with Cast times and Dizzy, for now, weave your ultimate / Dizzy with a Light Attack to be sure that you have a chance to hit at least if the Nb don't cloak immediately after your LA.

(Even if the fact that you can't see when someone use a detect pot makes the detect pot already way too strong imo due to inability for the Nb to react correctly to either know which guy broke cloak, if his detect pot is up, if it's still up, making you waste GCD and take wrong decisions without any counterplay, I wouldn't mind a buff for detect pot and / or this bug fix for that)

Cirantille · November 2019

How
When I or someone else un-cloak them we kill them in the end

Casterial · November 2019

Cirantille wrote: »

How
When I or someone else un-cloak them we kill them in the end

What do you mean?

@Lybal thank you for that information. It's a very unintuitive bug, but ZOS doesn't like to fix bugs over making new content. I think detect pot may need a slight rework for this, or if direct damage is applied to someone detected, take damage.

TheFamousMockingbird · November 2019

If you think of cloak as a Magicka dodge roll it might make sense why cast time abilities still miss even though you have broken their invisibility and can target them. Casting Shadowy Disguise gives the cloaker the same dodge roll frame as if they used a stamina dodge roll and that dodge effect is not removed by the potion detection method. If they are spamming Shadowy disguise it’s like spamming dodge rolls. However there are abilities that also suppress returning to invisibility which do seem to negate the cloak dodge roll frame until it wears off or they get out of range.

NyassaV · November 2019

I mean detect pots shouldn't really be in the game so I don't care much. There is enough random stuff that bring me out of cloak for no reason that I have no issue with something not working like this.

fred4 · November 2019

I play a magicka nightblade and use detect potions to fight other nightblades. This is intriguing. Never realized it. I am quite sure I hit other nightblades with single-target abilities while they are trying to cloak. I would say Lybal has it right.

Even though this is clearly a bug, I'm not sure I'd want any change. Remember this works both ways for me, since Soul Harvest has a cast time and it would appear to affect Lotus Fan. Detection potions are nasty, but I'm quite happy that they have to work differently from other reveal abilities, given their duration.

Detection in general feels like it's gotten worse, since Overwhelming Surge became a true AOE, since Solar Barrage and Crescent Sweep became decent skills, since Streak's area of effect, if anything, seems to have been buffed. I'm also quite sure that I have been hit and stunned by Toppling Charge while attempting to Cloak, so I'm not sure I buy the gap closer thing. Unless that guy was wearing Surge, I think gap closers missing may have more to do with speed.

At any rate, if this is a drawback to detection potions, I'm not sure I'd want it touched. Things like this can have a surprising impact on balance. Nightblades, magblades especially, really aren't in a good spot as it is.

Casterial · November 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

I mean detect pots shouldn't really be in the game so I don't care much. There is enough random stuff that bring me out of cloak for no reason that I have no issue with something not working like this.

They're in a lot of games, or some form of detect.

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

If you think of cloak as a Magicka dodge roll it might make sense why cast time abilities still miss even though you have broken their invisibility and can target them. Casting Shadowy Disguise gives the cloaker the same dodge roll frame as if they used a stamina dodge roll and that dodge effect is not removed by the potion detection method. If they are spamming Shadowy disguise it’s like spamming dodge rolls. However there are abilities that also suppress returning to invisibility which do seem to negate the cloak dodge roll frame until it wears off or they get out of range.

Dodge rolls has limitations if you consider the duration of cloak a dodge roll iframe.

Casterial · November 2019

fred4 wrote: »

I play a magicka nightblade and use detect potions to fight other nightblades. This is intriguing. Never realized it. I am quite sure I hit other nightblades with single-target abilities while they are trying to cloak. I would say Lybal has it right.

Even though this is clearly a bug, I'm not sure I'd want any change. Remember this works both ways for me, since Soul Harvest has a cast time and it would appear to affect Lotus Fan. Detection potions are nasty, but I'm quite happy that they have to work differently from other reveal abilities, given their duration.

Detection in general feels like it's gotten worse, since Overwhelming Surge became a true AOE, since Solar Barrage and Crescent Sweep became decent skills, since Streak's area of effect, if anything, seems to have been buffed. I'm also quite sure that I have been hit and stunned by Toppling Charge while attempting to Cloak, so I'm not sure I buy the gap closer thing. Unless that guy was wearing Surge, I think gap closers missing may have more to do with speed.

At any rate, if this is a drawback to detection potions, I'm not sure I'd want it touched. Things like this can have a surprising impact on balance. Nightblades, magblades especially, really aren't in a good spot as it is.

There could be other solutions like just not letting them use direct damage on the target?

Mayrael · November 2019

Like Lybal said, any single damage will pull NB out of cloak when detection pot is used, but abilities with cast time and gapclosers will fail to do so. This is pretty rare bug which is barely noticeable when you weave your attacks as LA will always pull NB out of cloak, nevertheless it should get fixed.

...and yes detection pots should display detection ring around player so you can actually counter it.

Casterial · November 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Like Lybal said, any single damage will pull NB out of cloak when detection pot is used, but abilities with cast time and gapclosers will fail to do so. This is pretty rare bug which is barely noticeable when you weave your attacks as LA will always pull NB out of cloak, nevertheless it should get fixed.

...and yes detection pots should display detection ring around player so you can actually counter it.

Detection ring is smart!

Ragnarock41 · November 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

I mean detect pots shouldn't really be in the game so I don't care much. There is enough random stuff that bring me out of cloak for no reason that I have no issue with something not working like this.

Cloak shouldn't really be in the game. Not in its current form.

Along with detect potions or abilities that specificly exist to prevent one class from using one ability.

Irfind · November 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Along with detect potions or abilities that specificly exist to prevent one class from using one ability.

Uhm but all classes can sneak ?

I see cloak as "oh s**t" or "oh crit" skill

Ragnarock41 · November 2019

Irfind wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Along with detect potions or abilities that specificly exist to prevent one class from using one ability.

Uhm but all classes can sneak ?

I see cloak as "oh s**t" or "oh crit" skill

Cloak is spammable %100 damage mitigation+invisibility(unlike sneak you cant be revealed by people coming too close)+crit on next attack and it has no counterplay outside of AoE direct damage/detect pots. And while detect potions do work spamming cloak still makes sure you're immune to single target damage.

AoE is the most reliable way but not all builds has one and some do so low damage that its not enough to stop the nb from resetting fight(volatile armor on stam is good example as it reveals but doesnt even do any damage so the nb heals back in the process of cloak spam/reveal)

Fact is, cloak and its counterplay works very similar to old wings(slot specific abilities to counter but when you do you become weaker due to playing in a non optimal way) and if one gets the "Fair Play" treatment then the other should not be an exception.

Its not a matter of opinion its a matter of non-biased game balance. If wings is not okay due to limited counterplay, cloak is not either for the very same reason , no amount of delusional forumblades can change this fact.

xxthir13enxx · November 2019

All I have to say is.....

RIP my Scorching Flare

You are missed! :'(

Konstant_Tel_Necris · November 2019

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

If you think of cloak as a Magicka dodge roll it might make sense why cast time abilities still miss even though you have broken their invisibility and can target them. Casting Shadowy Disguise gives the cloaker the same dodge roll frame as if they used a stamina dodge roll and that dodge effect is not removed by the potion detection method. If they are spamming Shadowy disguise it’s like spamming dodge rolls. However there are abilities that also suppress returning to invisibility which do seem to negate the cloak dodge roll frame until it wears off or they get out of range.

If think of cloak as a Magicka dodge roll it might make sense to put stacking cost increase on it, similar to Bolt Escape and you know dodge roll?

Iskiab · November 2019

Konstant_Tel_Necris wrote: »

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

If you think of cloak as a Magicka dodge roll it might make sense why cast time abilities still miss even though you have broken their invisibility and can target them. Casting Shadowy Disguise gives the cloaker the same dodge roll frame as if they used a stamina dodge roll and that dodge effect is not removed by the potion detection method. If they are spamming Shadowy disguise it’s like spamming dodge rolls. However there are abilities that also suppress returning to invisibility which do seem to negate the cloak dodge roll frame until it wears off or they get out of range.

If think of cloak as a Magicka dodge roll it might make sense to put stacking cost increase on it, similar to Bolt Escape and you know dodge roll?

Issue with that is it’s be a buff to stamblade and a nerf to magblade. They increased the cost of all the nightblade evasion skills to try and tone down stamblade I think. All the evasion skills on NB cost quite a bit.

If cloak was brought down to streak cost the break even point would be two cloaks in a row or so.

It’s odd, but esowiki has them listed as the same cost, but that’s not how it plays out. Maybe because of passives in my build? Streak feels much cheaper then cloak.

Shardaxx · November 2019

Detection is broken anyway, I've supped a detect pot to see a nb in stealth, then he proceeds to blink in and out of visibility even though he's clearly in range of the pot the whole time.