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Dot nerf doesn't close skill gap
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Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Huh? Improving DPS by "weaving" stands and falls with the animation of the light attack being cancelled.Siohwenoeht wrote: »Weaving, which is slightly different than Ani cancelling, is simply adding a light attack while skills are on the global cool down.
Otherwise there would be no benefit in "weaving" a light attack when you could use an ability that does more damage than the light attack.
(pls correct me, if I'm totally mistaken here!)
To bring bottom and top closer together, animation cancelling should be nerfed.
e.g. by radically reducing light attack damage or by making "block" and "roll dodge" the only things that cancel an animation.
Or by moving the time where the actual damage of an attack or ability occurs way back, so the time between "damage" and "animation ends" (to use the next attack/ability) is reduced to a minimum.
Fundamentally, weaving is simply filling the cool down of skills with a light attack to continue producing damage.
All skills are on essentially a one second cool down (0.999 sec or around). You cannot fire any skill within one second of another. Light attacks are on a separate one second cool down. You cannot fire more than one light attack every second.
Weaving is developing a rhythm between those two cooldowns.
Now some skill animations last longer than the one second cool down so if you are very precise with a light attack/skill activation you will clip the light attack animation but that does not allow abilities or light attacks to be fired more than once per second.
The other, absolutely necessary part of animation cancelling allows for reactive defense. This is using block or dodge roll to cancel you current action and react to incoming attack.
So, yes, you can weave without Ani cancelling, but you cannot Ani cancel without weaving, but they are different from each other.Edited by Siohwenoeht on October 22, 2019 6:11PM"It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »
Huh? Improving DPS by "weaving" stands and falls with the animation of the light attack being cancelled.Siohwenoeht wrote: »Weaving, which is slightly different than Ani cancelling, is simply adding a light attack while skills are on the global cool down.
Otherwise there would be no benefit in "weaving" a light attack when you could use an ability that does more damage than the light attack.
(pls correct me, if I'm totally mistaken here!)
To bring bottom and top closer together, animation cancelling should be nerfed.
e.g. by radically reducing light attack damage or by making "block" and "roll dodge" the only things that cancel an animation.
Or by moving the time where the actual damage of an attack or ability occurs way back, so the time between "damage" and "animation ends" (to use the next attack/ability) is reduced to a minimum.
Fundamentally, weaving is simply filling the cool down of skills with a light attack to continue producing damage.
All skills are on essentially a one second cool down (0.999 sec or around). You cannot fire any skill within one second of another. Light attacks are on a separate one second cool down. You cannot fire more than one light attack every second.
Weaving is developing a rhythm between those two cooldowns.
Now some skill animations last longer than the one second cool down so if you are very precise with a light attack/skill activation you will clip the light attack animation but that does not allow abilities or light attacks to be fired more than once per second.
The other, absolutely necessary part of animation cancelling allows for reactive defense. This is using block or dodge roll to cancel you current action and react to incoming attack.
So, yes, you can weave without Ani cancelling, but you cannot Ani cancel without weaving, but they are different from each other.
I mean, in theory you can animation cancel without weaving, it’d just be pointless and funny looking because tapping block the whole fight or dodge rolling to cut animations is very Extra.0 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »
Huh? Improving DPS by "weaving" stands and falls with the animation of the light attack being cancelled.Siohwenoeht wrote: »Weaving, which is slightly different than Ani cancelling, is simply adding a light attack while skills are on the global cool down.
Otherwise there would be no benefit in "weaving" a light attack when you could use an ability that does more damage than the light attack.
(pls correct me, if I'm totally mistaken here!)
To bring bottom and top closer together, animation cancelling should be nerfed.
e.g. by radically reducing light attack damage or by making "block" and "roll dodge" the only things that cancel an animation.
Or by moving the time where the actual damage of an attack or ability occurs way back, so the time between "damage" and "animation ends" (to use the next attack/ability) is reduced to a minimum.
Fundamentally, weaving is simply filling the cool down of skills with a light attack to continue producing damage.
All skills are on essentially a one second cool down (0.999 sec or around). You cannot fire any skill within one second of another. Light attacks are on a separate one second cool down. You cannot fire more than one light attack every second.
Weaving is developing a rhythm between those two cooldowns.
Now some skill animations last longer than the one second cool down so if you are very precise with a light attack/skill activation you will clip the light attack animation but that does not allow abilities or light attacks to be fired more than once per second.
The other, absolutely necessary part of animation cancelling allows for reactive defense. This is using block or dodge roll to cancel you current action and react to incoming attack.
So, yes, you can weave without Ani cancelling, but you cannot Ani cancel without weaving, but they are different from each other.
I mean, in theory you can animation cancel without weaving, it’d just be pointless and funny looking because tapping block the whole fight or dodge rolling to cut animations is very Extra.
Lol I guess that's possible but had never considered it since it would indeed be funny looking and you'd run out of stamina very very quickly😉"It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.Edited by pieratsos on October 22, 2019 7:00PM3 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭Wow you guys are after light attacks now?Edited by Drako_Ei on October 22, 2019 7:48PM3
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AMeanOne✭✭✭✭✭Mathius_Mordred wrote: »This game is being ruined by all the whining PvPers just like so many others. I doubt the Lord Warden cares about your LA:DoT ratio, it's only other players. Why is it the majority of players, many of whom have had enough of nuclear option patch notes, have to suffer for a tiny minority who enjoy PvP? Why do Devs continually make this mistake?
Lol no, lord warden is not here complaining. Every nerf doesn't always originate from pvp. I'm sure zos remembers you used to kill lord warden with 30k dps, and now people don't want to lose their 90k dps.
1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wow you guys are after light attacks now?
Well it is pretty obvious that weaving is the main source of the massive gap we have.
Logic would say to up the damage from active abilities and lower the LA damage to somewhat shrink that gap. But I don’t trust ZOS to do either of those things right, so tbh I’m not gonna bother making a fuss beyond pointing it out.3 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement
Who says that? The result is not directly connected to improvement. Just because you scored C on ur math test in ur primary school and u also scored C on ur math test in university it doesn't mean that you didn't improve at math. You did, the tests were just getting harder and harder forcing you to study harder and harder and thats why you got better. And you improved a hell of a lot more than taking the same primary school test in university and scoring A.
Improvement is connected to effort not the result. The more effort you put into something the more you improve. Result is connected to effort. If the effort needed to get a good result isn't great then you probably won't improve much cause you didn't actually put much effort.
Pressing 3 buttons and getting a good result doesn't mean you improved just because you got a good result. It was just easy to get a good result. Which is exactly why when you are put into a more difficult situation u fail to get good results. Meaning that if ur goal is to actually improve then you should always aim for something hard to do.2 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement
Who says that? The result is not directly connected to improvement. Just because you scored C on ur math test in ur primary school and u also scored C on ur math test in university it doesn't mean that you didn't improve at math. You did, the tests were just getting harder and harder forcing you to study harder and harder and thats why you got better. And you improved a hell of a lot more than taking the same primary school test in university and scoring A.
Improvement is connected to effort not the result. The more effort you put into something the more you improve. Result is connected to effort. If the effort needed to get a good result isn't great then you probably won't improve much cause you didn't actually put much effort.
Pressing 3 buttons and getting a good result doesn't mean you improved just because you got a good result. It was just easy to get a good result. Which is exactly why when you are put into a more difficult situation u fail to get good results. Meaning that if ur goal is to actually improve then you should always aim for something hard to do.
Your 1st paragraph makes sense, the problem is your last paragraph doesn't reflect reality.
Seen few ppl's parse where dot rotation only hit about 10% harder than spam 1 or 2 skill over and over.
The 10% is comparing parses done by same person with same gear.
The new meta is pressing 3 button. Old meta is more like 8.
1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement
Who says that? The result is not directly connected to improvement. Just because you scored C on ur math test in ur primary school and u also scored C on ur math test in university it doesn't mean that you didn't improve at math. You did, the tests were just getting harder and harder forcing you to study harder and harder and thats why you got better. And you improved a hell of a lot more than taking the same primary school test in university and scoring A.
Improvement is connected to effort not the result. The more effort you put into something the more you improve. Result is connected to effort. If the effort needed to get a good result isn't great then you probably won't improve much cause you didn't actually put much effort.
Pressing 3 buttons and getting a good result doesn't mean you improved just because you got a good result. It was just easy to get a good result. Which is exactly why when you are put into a more difficult situation u fail to get good results. Meaning that if ur goal is to actually improve then you should always aim for something hard to do.
Your 1st paragraph makes sense, the problem is your last paragraph doesn't reflect reality.
Seen few ppl's parse where dot rotation only hit about 10% harder than spam 1 or 2 skill over and over.
The 10% is comparing parses done by same person with same gear.
The new meta is pressing 3 button. Old meta is more like 8.
Umm, no. Im talking about the concept of ur idea that dots should hit hard af and direct attacks, La etc nerfed so that a casual player is able to pretty much do the "same dmg" as someone who is able to perform a perfect rotation including dots, spammables, procs, light attacks etc. I mean thats what you suggested no?
And that's where the problem lies. If that happens yes the DPS gap between a subpar rotation and perfect rotation will be smaller but that's not because u improved. That's because it will be easier to get great dmg numbers. You are essentially rewarding subpar rotations. And that's not just a PvE thing but a PvP thing as well.
But again, if ur issue is that the DPS gap is so huge to the point where other problems are created such as content being "inaccessible" for most then ur issue is with power creep and that's what u should try to address but not through punishing skilled gameplay.0 -
Soella✭✭✭✭After playing a bit with "nerfed" build (I have pretty dot heavy one) I personally feel that gap is smaller now. When I checked my DPS on dummy, it was about 10-15% less than I am used to. But after that I ran a few veterans, to my great surprise I did on bosses about same as I did before. So for me change is not visible, and gap between me and better players is less.
For reference - I am probably somewhat median player - on current toon I am doing 17-19K on dummy and about 22-24K in real boss fight (I don't have most of buffs/debufs in my build, heavily depend on group). Yeah, I know that by the forum standard it is low, but in most of randoms I am pulling 40-60% of total damage done, so kinda OK for non forum dwellers.0 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement
Who says that? The result is not directly connected to improvement. Just because you scored C on ur math test in ur primary school and u also scored C on ur math test in university it doesn't mean that you didn't improve at math. You did, the tests were just getting harder and harder forcing you to study harder and harder and thats why you got better. And you improved a hell of a lot more than taking the same primary school test in university and scoring A.
Improvement is connected to effort not the result. The more effort you put into something the more you improve. Result is connected to effort. If the effort needed to get a good result isn't great then you probably won't improve much cause you didn't actually put much effort.
Pressing 3 buttons and getting a good result doesn't mean you improved just because you got a good result. It was just easy to get a good result. Which is exactly why when you are put into a more difficult situation u fail to get good results. Meaning that if ur goal is to actually improve then you should always aim for something hard to do.
Your 1st paragraph makes sense, the problem is your last paragraph doesn't reflect reality.
Seen few ppl's parse where dot rotation only hit about 10% harder than spam 1 or 2 skill over and over.
The 10% is comparing parses done by same person with same gear.
The new meta is pressing 3 button. Old meta is more like 8.
Umm, no. Im talking about the concept of ur idea that dots should hit hard af and direct attacks, La etc nerfed so that a casual player is able to pretty much do the "same dmg" as someone who is able to perform a perfect rotation including dots, spammables, procs, light attacks etc. I mean thats what you suggested no?
And that's where the problem lies. If that happens yes the DPS gap between a subpar rotation and perfect rotation will be smaller but that's not because u improved. That's because it will be easier to get great dmg numbers. You are essentially rewarding subpar rotations. And that's not just a PvE thing but a PvP thing as well.
But again, if ur issue is that the DPS gap is so huge to the point where other problems are created such as content being "inaccessible" for most then ur issue is with power creep and that's what u should try to address but not through punishing skilled gameplay.
Spamming 2 skills and no dots is not skilled gameplay.1 -
Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The OP is correct in that this patch basically made end game accessible to a lot fewer players. Tgis will have a negative domino effect for end game players as the pool of people signing up for endgame content goes down, making groups harder to come by.
And those longer waits makes dungeon queues less attractive, which further decreases the amount of people in them.
The chief problem is the combat team because they;
A ) Are not very hard working.
I mean look at the combat changes this patch other then the blanket changes to dots and aoes, there is not a lot here. A redo of a two or three spells? This took them three months?
B ) They don’t really care.
During the eso live stream they literally said that the concerns of the common player is not their target. This change is directed at curbing endgame players dps and if the rest of the player base suffers, so what? That is the combat teams philosophy.
pretty much says it all, for me.
let the elites have this game and see if they can keep it funded, then.
2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The OP is correct in that this patch basically made end game accessible to a lot fewer players. Tgis will have a negative domino effect for end game players as the pool of people signing up for endgame content goes down, making groups harder to come by.
And those longer waits makes dungeon queues less attractive, which further decreases the amount of people in them.
The chief problem is the combat team because they;
A ) Are not very hard working.
I mean look at the combat changes this patch other then the blanket changes to dots and aoes, there is not a lot here. A redo of a two or three spells? This took them three months?
B ) They don’t really care.
During the eso live stream they literally said that the concerns of the common player is not their target. This change is directed at curbing endgame players dps and if the rest of the player base suffers, so what? That is the combat teams philosophy.
pretty much says it all, for me.
let the elites have this game and see if they can keep it funded, then.
Agreed. Lets see how long their elite and whales keep them afloat.
They'd be begging for us to come back with 10 free mounts, 3 houses and 50 crown crates if the casuals said "I'm done".1 -
The_Auror✭✭✭
Agreed. Lets see how long their elite and whales keep them afloat.
They'd be begging for us to come back with 10 free mounts, 3 houses and 50 crown crates if the casuals said "I'm done".
Nothing they've done the last few patches has pleased endgamers either, which is what I assume you mean by your "elites" statement.
We have dumbed-down rotations, horrible sustain and no class identity. Nobody asked for this besides some pvpers whining about 2-3 overtuned single target dots. These same people are now whining about unkillable tanks lol.
The funny thing is we might be on different sides of the fence and yet neither are happy. The recent patch direction sucks no matter what side you're on. Yeah yeah adapt. Been doing that since homestead and at some point it isn't fun anymore. It's exhausting.3 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Looks like people are out in force looking to blame other sections of players for the patch. Not really a good idea - no players made the patch changes.2 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agreed. Lets see how long their elite and whales keep them afloat.
They'd be begging for us to come back with 10 free mounts, 3 houses and 50 crown crates if the casuals said "I'm done".
The "elites" want a balanced competitive endgame, they don't give two guar turds about Indriks, event tickets, or $100 houses. If you read the forums more, you'd notice that many "elites" were against the U24 damage nerfs not because it hurt their own parses, but because it would hurt casual or average players even more. You'd also notice that many "elites" are in favor of a compromise that would close the gap between players who animation cancel and those who don't - buff skill damage while nerfing light attack damage.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas6 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Git gut.
Why you even decided that there must be no gap? You just depreciating efforts that players put to get better results than others. Most stamina and magicka characters were already braindead in their rotations even before Scalebreaker. When dot meta hited the fan people just refused to play this stupidity. If you have any excuses that you haven't time/willing and etc to improve yourself - just don't make topics like this.
Nobody is saying good players shouldn't be rewarded, but too wide a gap is a glaring design flaw with negative consequences for the game. Why do you think players are so polarised around "game is too easy" on the one hand and "game is too hard" on the other? With the kind of gap we have between a good and even a mediocre player, it's basically impossible to design well-rounded content (not to mention the fact that ZOS still haven't learned after 5 years how to prevent boss burn and ignoring mechanics).
A skill gap is on the players, not the devs... In FACT a skill gap is completely within the players control. In FACT, a relatively LARGE skill gap exists between the devs and the best players in the game.1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »Git gut.
Why you even decided that there must be no gap? You just depreciating efforts that players put to get better results than others. Most stamina and magicka characters were already braindead in their rotations even before Scalebreaker. When dot meta hited the fan people just refused to play this stupidity. If you have any excuses that you haven't time/willing and etc to improve yourself - just don't make topics like this.
Nobody is saying good players shouldn't be rewarded, but too wide a gap is a glaring design flaw with negative consequences for the game. Why do you think players are so polarised around "game is too easy" on the one hand and "game is too hard" on the other? With the kind of gap we have between a good and even a mediocre player, it's basically impossible to design well-rounded content (not to mention the fact that ZOS still haven't learned after 5 years how to prevent boss burn and ignoring mechanics).
A skill gap is on the players, not the devs... In FACT a skill gap is completely within the players control. In FACT, a relatively LARGE skill gap exists between the devs and the best players in the game.
It’s not the skill gap from “clueless to pro” that’s the issue, actually it’s not even the issue of a skill gap at all because those will always exist and rewards for high skill aren’t a bad thing. It’s the damage floor and ceiling that are the issue. It’s simply too big between an average player at 20k, and the 80k+ at the high end. Not to mention there’s not much middle ground content to learn and grow into that 60k dps gap. 20k is enough to make some dungeons a breeze, but venture into another dungeon and suddenly it becomes absolutely painful without each dps having more than 30k.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement
Who says that? The result is not directly connected to improvement. Just because you scored C on ur math test in ur primary school and u also scored C on ur math test in university it doesn't mean that you didn't improve at math. You did, the tests were just getting harder and harder forcing you to study harder and harder and thats why you got better. And you improved a hell of a lot more than taking the same primary school test in university and scoring A.
Improvement is connected to effort not the result. The more effort you put into something the more you improve. Result is connected to effort. If the effort needed to get a good result isn't great then you probably won't improve much cause you didn't actually put much effort.
Pressing 3 buttons and getting a good result doesn't mean you improved just because you got a good result. It was just easy to get a good result. Which is exactly why when you are put into a more difficult situation u fail to get good results. Meaning that if ur goal is to actually improve then you should always aim for something hard to do.
Your 1st paragraph makes sense, the problem is your last paragraph doesn't reflect reality.
Seen few ppl's parse where dot rotation only hit about 10% harder than spam 1 or 2 skill over and over.
The 10% is comparing parses done by same person with same gear.
The new meta is pressing 3 button. Old meta is more like 8.
Umm, no. Im talking about the concept of ur idea that dots should hit hard af and direct attacks, La etc nerfed so that a casual player is able to pretty much do the "same dmg" as someone who is able to perform a perfect rotation including dots, spammables, procs, light attacks etc. I mean thats what you suggested no?
And that's where the problem lies. If that happens yes the DPS gap between a subpar rotation and perfect rotation will be smaller but that's not because u improved. That's because it will be easier to get great dmg numbers. You are essentially rewarding subpar rotations. And that's not just a PvE thing but a PvP thing as well.
But again, if ur issue is that the DPS gap is so huge to the point where other problems are created such as content being "inaccessible" for most then ur issue is with power creep and that's what u should try to address but not through punishing skilled gameplay.
Spamming 2 skills and no dots is not skilled gameplay.
Exept that the top 5th percentile you are speaking of, are NOT spamming 2 skills. Spamming 2 skills falls into the category of subpar rotation and should not be rewarded either.
You are here arguing about which rotation should be rewarded and which isn't without even knowing what those rotations include.0 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement
Who says that? The result is not directly connected to improvement. Just because you scored C on ur math test in ur primary school and u also scored C on ur math test in university it doesn't mean that you didn't improve at math. You did, the tests were just getting harder and harder forcing you to study harder and harder and thats why you got better. And you improved a hell of a lot more than taking the same primary school test in university and scoring A.
Improvement is connected to effort not the result. The more effort you put into something the more you improve. Result is connected to effort. If the effort needed to get a good result isn't great then you probably won't improve much cause you didn't actually put much effort.
Pressing 3 buttons and getting a good result doesn't mean you improved just because you got a good result. It was just easy to get a good result. Which is exactly why when you are put into a more difficult situation u fail to get good results. Meaning that if ur goal is to actually improve then you should always aim for something hard to do.
Your 1st paragraph makes sense, the problem is your last paragraph doesn't reflect reality.
Seen few ppl's parse where dot rotation only hit about 10% harder than spam 1 or 2 skill over and over.
The 10% is comparing parses done by same person with same gear.
The new meta is pressing 3 button. Old meta is more like 8.
Umm, no. Im talking about the concept of ur idea that dots should hit hard af and direct attacks, La etc nerfed so that a casual player is able to pretty much do the "same dmg" as someone who is able to perform a perfect rotation including dots, spammables, procs, light attacks etc. I mean thats what you suggested no?
And that's where the problem lies. If that happens yes the DPS gap between a subpar rotation and perfect rotation will be smaller but that's not because u improved. That's because it will be easier to get great dmg numbers. You are essentially rewarding subpar rotations. And that's not just a PvE thing but a PvP thing as well.
But again, if ur issue is that the DPS gap is so huge to the point where other problems are created such as content being "inaccessible" for most then ur issue is with power creep and that's what u should try to address but not through punishing skilled gameplay.
Spamming 2 skills and no dots is not skilled gameplay.
Exept that the top 5th percentile you are speaking of, are NOT spamming 2 skills. Spamming 2 skills falls into the category of subpar rotation and should not be rewarded either.
You are here arguing about which rotation should be rewarded and which isn't without even knowing what those rotations include.
Spamming 2 skill should never do over 80% the dps of actually using a rotation.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement
Who says that? The result is not directly connected to improvement. Just because you scored C on ur math test in ur primary school and u also scored C on ur math test in university it doesn't mean that you didn't improve at math. You did, the tests were just getting harder and harder forcing you to study harder and harder and thats why you got better. And you improved a hell of a lot more than taking the same primary school test in university and scoring A.
Improvement is connected to effort not the result. The more effort you put into something the more you improve. Result is connected to effort. If the effort needed to get a good result isn't great then you probably won't improve much cause you didn't actually put much effort.
Pressing 3 buttons and getting a good result doesn't mean you improved just because you got a good result. It was just easy to get a good result. Which is exactly why when you are put into a more difficult situation u fail to get good results. Meaning that if ur goal is to actually improve then you should always aim for something hard to do.
Your 1st paragraph makes sense, the problem is your last paragraph doesn't reflect reality.
Seen few ppl's parse where dot rotation only hit about 10% harder than spam 1 or 2 skill over and over.
The 10% is comparing parses done by same person with same gear.
The new meta is pressing 3 button. Old meta is more like 8.
Umm, no. Im talking about the concept of ur idea that dots should hit hard af and direct attacks, La etc nerfed so that a casual player is able to pretty much do the "same dmg" as someone who is able to perform a perfect rotation including dots, spammables, procs, light attacks etc. I mean thats what you suggested no?
And that's where the problem lies. If that happens yes the DPS gap between a subpar rotation and perfect rotation will be smaller but that's not because u improved. That's because it will be easier to get great dmg numbers. You are essentially rewarding subpar rotations. And that's not just a PvE thing but a PvP thing as well.
But again, if ur issue is that the DPS gap is so huge to the point where other problems are created such as content being "inaccessible" for most then ur issue is with power creep and that's what u should try to address but not through punishing skilled gameplay.
Spamming 2 skills and no dots is not skilled gameplay.
Exept that the top 5th percentile you are speaking of, are NOT spamming 2 skills. Spamming 2 skills falls into the category of subpar rotation and should not be rewarded either.
You are here arguing about which rotation should be rewarded and which isn't without even knowing what those rotations include.
Spamming 2 skill should never do over 80% the dps of actually using a rotation.
Completely agree on that. And it doesnt. So what the hell are you even talking about? Get it through ur thick head. The top 5th percentile you are speaking of are not just spamming two skills. They are actually using a rotation which you cannot use because you are not as good as them and instead of actually trying to improve to get to their level, you choose to run ur mouth in the forums about how they are only spamming two skills, what they do isnt skilled, and that they should be nerfed. You are embarrassing urself.Edited by pieratsos on October 26, 2019 9:36PM1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.
I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.
TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.
So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.
Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.
I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.
No, increase in DPS does not necessarily mean "improve" . You confuse results with effort. Sorry mate they are not the same. Asking for an easier way to get results does not mean that you improve. It actually means the exact opposite. It means that you dont want to improve but you want the results anw.
Improving is not related to the ceiling itself but to the way you get there. The harder it is to get there the more you will actually improve. If your problem is that the gap between floor and ceiling is too big then ur problem is with power creep. Making it easier to get to the ceiling is not addressing that problem while its also sacrificing the concept of improving in the process which is what ur goal is in the first place.
Result can be easily measured where effort can not, putting in more effort without better result is definitely not improvement
Who says that? The result is not directly connected to improvement. Just because you scored C on ur math test in ur primary school and u also scored C on ur math test in university it doesn't mean that you didn't improve at math. You did, the tests were just getting harder and harder forcing you to study harder and harder and thats why you got better. And you improved a hell of a lot more than taking the same primary school test in university and scoring A.
Improvement is connected to effort not the result. The more effort you put into something the more you improve. Result is connected to effort. If the effort needed to get a good result isn't great then you probably won't improve much cause you didn't actually put much effort.
Pressing 3 buttons and getting a good result doesn't mean you improved just because you got a good result. It was just easy to get a good result. Which is exactly why when you are put into a more difficult situation u fail to get good results. Meaning that if ur goal is to actually improve then you should always aim for something hard to do.
Your 1st paragraph makes sense, the problem is your last paragraph doesn't reflect reality.
Seen few ppl's parse where dot rotation only hit about 10% harder than spam 1 or 2 skill over and over.
The 10% is comparing parses done by same person with same gear.
The new meta is pressing 3 button. Old meta is more like 8.
Umm, no. Im talking about the concept of ur idea that dots should hit hard af and direct attacks, La etc nerfed so that a casual player is able to pretty much do the "same dmg" as someone who is able to perform a perfect rotation including dots, spammables, procs, light attacks etc. I mean thats what you suggested no?
And that's where the problem lies. If that happens yes the DPS gap between a subpar rotation and perfect rotation will be smaller but that's not because u improved. That's because it will be easier to get great dmg numbers. You are essentially rewarding subpar rotations. And that's not just a PvE thing but a PvP thing as well.
But again, if ur issue is that the DPS gap is so huge to the point where other problems are created such as content being "inaccessible" for most then ur issue is with power creep and that's what u should try to address but not through punishing skilled gameplay.
Spamming 2 skills and no dots is not skilled gameplay.
Exept that the top 5th percentile you are speaking of, are NOT spamming 2 skills. Spamming 2 skills falls into the category of subpar rotation and should not be rewarded either.
You are here arguing about which rotation should be rewarded and which isn't without even knowing what those rotations include.
Spamming 2 skill should never do over 80% the dps of actually using a rotation.
Completely agree on that. And it doesnt. So what the hell are you even talking about? Get it through ur thick head. The top 5th percentile you are speaking of are not just spamming two skills. They are actually using a rotation which you cannot use because you are not as good as them and instead of actually trying to improve to get to their level, you choose to run ur mouth in the forums about how they are only spamming two skills, what they do isnt skilled, and that they should be nerfed. You are embarrassing urself.
Yes it does, spamming 2 skills in fact can do over 80% the dps of actually using dots.
And you are wrong because I am sure I qualify as a top 5% player, i cleared all the dlc hm trials
I don't do good dps. I am a tank main.
I never said top 5% players are spamming 2 skills. My issue is zos actually make this viable.
My complaint is anti dot meta does not reward ppl for keeping dots up enough.
It reduce the gap between median and bottom 5th percentile in term of proportion.
On the other hand it increase the gap between the median and top 5th percentile.
The distribution of dps is becoming more and more left skewed.
And yes, LA and direct dmg should be nerfed instead, you go take a look at ppl's parse now.
Ppl are getting 18k from light attack meanwhile a lot dots are hitting about 4k dps.
If you want to argue with me how left skewed dps distribution is encouraging below average players to get good, i am all ears.0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LA's should do a max of 1% damage.
But they should account for 80% of sustain.
LA for sustain 20200 -
MrGhosty✭✭✭✭✭As a player who was just reaching a point where I could carry my own weight in harder endgame content, this latest patch was pretty devastating for me. I put the time in to get my gear, ran the dungeons and other stuff for transmutes, upgraded gear all the while practicing my rotation and was just finally reaching the point where I could hit my benchmark of 20k on the 6mil dummy. Then the patch came and I dropped below that benchmark.
My problem is that in order for me to accurately gauge my performance I feel like I have to use add ons to track the minutia. The data tracking I don't mind, it's actually kind of fun, but there doesn't seem to be a reliable way track if you're in the sweet spot with weaving without third party add ons. The only metric you get without them is "welp, that didn't work".
I don't want to be given my power, i'm prepared to invest the time I need to. Afterall, i've only been back for a few months now and the game is essentially completely different to when I left so it would be silly to expect to be hitting the numbers of folks who've been playing constantly for years.
I think it was a mistake to flat nuke dots, when they should have been tuned per class with a flat reduction happening with class agnostic dots (still not a nuke, just toned down a bit) The other mistake is all these whiplash changes make it a bit like russian roulette whether or not you're still going to enjoy your class after one patch or another drops. I really feel for the players who only main one or two characters, my templar is going on ice for awhile and thankfully I have some other classes to play with but that would be extremely disheartening for a player who only had a templar.
It should also bear consideration that most casual players don't read patch notes, so they just suddenly perform worse with no real guidance as to why.
none of these things mean we should just have left the dots as they were, it was certainly fun but I think anyone being honest with themselves can agree that they were stupidly broken as is, I just wish zos would use a scalpel rather than a hammer."It is a time of strife and unrest. Armies of revenants and dark spirits manifest in every corner of Tamriel. Winters grow colder and crops fail. Mystics are plagued by nightmares and portents of doom."0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭I've gone patch after patch generally 15-20 percent below the top parses shown on YouTube. This time it's about 6-7% below, with what's considered the wrong race, wrong sets, wrong weapons slotted on both bars, a circular rather than dynamic rotation, a rotation loaded with DOTs and a couple flurry casts rather than the constant wrecking blow crap spam rotation I've been seeing.
But the gap closed because I have been testing out different things on PTS to find what works best for me, it would have been much worse than a 20% difference if I just left the same build on all the characters.Edited by Bladerunner1 on October 29, 2019 11:43PM0