El_Borracho wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Seriously, OP? Troll King?

It a carry defensive mechanic. Why not?

So now we have to nerf offense and defense? Its a healing boost. Which requires you to heal and still be under 50% health to activate the second trait. If this is a problem in PVP, it might not be with the person wearing Troll King.

Said if before, saying it again. ZOS, please make a no-CP, no armor sets, no weapons, no skills, no potions PVP zone where people who are unhappy with all of these things can go slap themselves silly.

*nerf free defense and offense. That's why I'm so happy *** like earthgore, viper, tremorscale, veli and co have been nerfed to the point they are now. Training wheels are ok, but they should not be the best option becuase they are training wheels.
With your reasoning, we could say that viper in its first year of existence was ok.

Nerftheforums wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Seriously, OP? Troll King?

It a carry defensive mechanic. Why not?

So now we have to nerf offense and defense? Its a healing boost. Which requires you to heal and still be under 50% health to activate the second trait. If this is a problem in PVP, it might not be with the person wearing Troll King.

Said if before, saying it again. ZOS, please make a no-CP, no armor sets, no weapons, no skills, no potions PVP zone where people who are unhappy with all of these things can go slap themselves silly.

*nerf free defense and offense. That's why I'm so happy *** like earthgore, viper, tremorscale, veli and co have been nerfed to the point they are now. Training wheels are ok, but they should not be the best option becuase they are training wheels.
With your reasoning, we could say that viper in its first year of existence was ok.

Free offense and defense? LOL. Troll King requires you to (1) Be under 50% health, (2) Heal, and (3) STILL be under 50% health after you heal for the health regeneration boost to kick in. Not a heal, but a regeneration buff. Whoo, I can see why this is so OP and impossible for people to overcome in PVP. I mean, it requires you to be losing, continue losing, and then maybe your health will creep up a faster after you heal. Though, I'm trying to figure out where that free offense comes in here...

Troll King and pre-nerf Earthgore are nowhere near the same thing. But do go on.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Nerftheforums

Can you define your use of the word "carry" here?

A mechanic that requires little to no effort to gain an extemely noticeable change in performance, in this case, healing. Because honestly, people claiming that being below 50% health while healing your self is a "requirement" is quite laughable (answering to @El_Borracho), considering literally every spec in the game except magplar fulfills that requirement simply by keeping its buffs up. Even magplar does so, but it gets over 50% with a single htd, so it's pointless to run this on that class.

The fact that it has no cooldown, tied with the laughable requirement and the fact that the 2nd piece includes 14 single lines of health recovery, makes this set a big ass carry imo.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

For all you calling for a nerf to this, did you not notice that Alessian Order and Endurance both provide the same amount of HP Regen, adjusted for uptime, in a 5 piece and a 3 piece? Did you not notice the reduction of Lingering Health to 14 seconds? Did you not notice the loss of the HOT from Forward Momentum / Rally? Did you not notice the removal of the 20% Racial Passive buff to HP Regen? These indirect nerfs are just from the last year, and there have been a number of nerfs, both direct and indirect, to TK since it was released.

Did you not notice Troll King has never been weaker than it is in the current patch?

NERF THOSE TOO!!! No healing of any kind!

Nerftheforums wrote: »

considering literally every spec in the game except magplar fulfills that requirement simply by keeping its buffs up

Can you go ahead and list all the "buffs" which you think proc TK? Vigor and Cauterize are "buffs" to you?

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

considering literally every spec in the game except magplar fulfills that requirement simply by keeping its buffs up

Can you go ahead and list all the "buffs" which you think proc TK? Vigor and Cauterize are "buffs" to you?

OK well, maybe buff isn't the perfect word, but they could be considered as such, so give me a pass on this bad wording.
Anyhow, buffs that proc that set per class:
Leeching vines
Ritual
Swallow soul & leeching strikes
Crit surge (in combination with the armor buff that I can't recall how it's called now)
The necro ghost (not sure here?)
Flame lash/inhale/cauterize (even tho it crits for huge amounts if properly built)

So basically only stamdk doesn't have an automatic proc of the set from class skill? You get my point. Now add vigor and rapid regen to the equation and bam, impossible to not proc tk unless u afk...and even then, if you left your buffs up, it'll proc

El_Borracho wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Nerftheforums

Can you define your use of the word "carry" here?

A mechanic that requires little to no effort to gain an extemely noticeable change in performance, in this case, healing. Because honestly, people claiming that being below 50% health while healing your self is a "requirement" is quite laughable (answering to @El_Borracho), considering literally every spec in the game except magplar fulfills that requirement simply by keeping its buffs up. Even magplar does so, but it gets over 50% with a single htd, so it's pointless to run this on that class.

The fact that it has no cooldown, tied with the laughable requirement and the fact that the 2nd piece includes 14 single lines of health recovery, makes this set a big ass carry imo.

Or you could read the prerequisites for it:

(2 items) When you heal yourself or an ally, if they are still below 50% Health, their Health Recovery is increased by 1548 for 10 seconds.

Its almost like how it works. Weird. So you're for healing, but only if the person has over half their health. If not, RIP.

Since when did a boost to someone's stats become a "extremely noticeable change in performance?" Its a boost to health generation if you meet those 3 requirements. You don't get the boost if you do not. That's like saying "we all know Velidreth activates when you take damage, even though the set requirements say you have to deal damage. And that 20% chance really means 100% chance."

But okay. Troll KIng is just like pre-nerf Earthgore...

Holy *** you really understand what you wanna understand, don't you? I never set it's like a pre nerf earthgore. But whatever, I guess you use this on way too many builds to accept the fact that someone else considers this a carry.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Nerftheforums

I don't see how any thing which is effective is not a "carry"

Truly elite PVPers wear Adept Rider and Crusader, right?

OK take bloodspawn for example. THE monster set. It gives a fuckton of resistances and ult gen. Hella good, but it's *** trash on someone who doesn't know how to play, because the player is trash. Tk on the other hand, makes a noob potentially a lot more difficult to kill simply because it does stuff that normally would require an active action for the player. That was the same issue with malu back in the days, with the procalypse some years ago, with earthgore until not so long ago, and imo still with tk. It simply takes out skill from the equation. Now, I believe you are a better/smarter reader than the borracho guy, so I believe you already understood that I do not consider tk as strong as the pre nerf defensive options I mentioned above. However, I do consider the set being slightly op, and the addition of a CD (say, it lasts 10s and has a CD of 16?) would definitely make it balanced imo.

Also @Nerftheforums , can you be honest, do you currently play a melee stam spec in Battlegrounds? Again - no more HOT on Forward Momentum, and now Lingering Health reduced to 14 seconds. Do not apply your impressions for prior months to the current patch.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also @Nerftheforums , can you be honest, do you currently play a melee stam spec in Battlegrounds? Again - no more HOT on Forward Momentum, and now Lingering Health reduced to 14 seconds. Do not apply your impressions for prior months to the current patch.

My main is a stamnb, which I totally stopped playing after it became the cast time class. I don't find it funny anymore. I have been playing a stamplar for the last 9 months basically on a daily basis, but I am 100% aware of the issues some stam specs have atm, especially in no cp (*** up environment imo considering how zos has managed balance in the years, but this is another issue). Considered this, I still believe some CD would benefit the situation. Agree to disagree I guess?

Btw, thank you for keeping this civil. I love having these type of discussion with people who act maturely

@Nerftheforums

I think the reality is a good group just needs to deal with trading some damage output for Defile uptime. It's a necessary sacrifice to counter tanky builds. Balancing No CP Death Match and CP Cyrodiil is massively difficult.

I also appreciate the civility, I trust we all aspire to the same goal, which is a reasonably balanced but diverse PvP. TK affords one of the only ways to play as a Brawler without relying on high Vigor uptime, which necessitates Stam Regen beyond the base level. I think using Heavy Attacks as a method to sustain should be viable, as it engenders a more diverse PvP. I do not think not relying on Vigor should be seen as "noob" or a "carry", a low stam regen build unequivocally has a lower ceiling on damage output than a high stam regen build.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Nerftheforums

I think the reality is a good group just needs to deal with trading some damage output for Defile uptime. It's a necessary sacrifice to counter tanky builds. Balancing No CP Death Match and CP Cyrodiil is massively difficult.

Absolutely, an (probably) impossible take that for some *** up reason zos tries to pursue. Fortunately defile isn't as easy to obtain as in the past, but I think we can agree that getting access to it now is really freaking hard.