Ninja Havel Monster PvP - Perspective and Questions

Zski · October 2019

Preface: I've been playing ESO PvP regularly for around a year and a half / two years now. Started in lowbie, ground my way up through there, BG fairly regularly, and venture out into vet open-world whenever I feel like zerg surfing. I know how to cancel/bash/roll/weave. I have a general understanding of the classes and how they function, I know the entry-level combos and what to watch for, and have a reasonable approximation of what the classes and weapons are trying to do each other. I'm clearing this out of the way so we can skip the "just play more 4head" answers below, since if just grinding it was going to answer any of my questions it would have happened by now.

Largely, I've found that the types of players in PvP boil down to 3 macrotypes:

First Day at School (low survivability, low damage, cannon fodder)
General Player (low survivability, medium damage)
Ninja Havel Monsters (literally invincible, maximum damage)

Now Ninja Havel Monsters are incredibly problematic just for existing, but that's not why I'm here. There's just going to be people with 40k resists that can twoshot me in heavy (probably involving bonk now, but they were around before that and I assume they will still exist after it eventually gets nerfed), and while I hate and don't understand it, I've largely come to terms with it. Some players just have everything, it's whatever.

What I don't understand, after all this time, is how to function in the mid group in Vet PvP. In lowbie, even against other longterm lowbie players, I can function. Damage makes sense. Heavy does less, light takes more, medium rolls a lot, people that can onetap you generally can be onetapped. There are tradeoffs and archetypes and give/take. It makes sense down here.

Then I go to vet, BG or CP-PvP, and it's all out the window. My 6k weapon damage isn't even registering on 7/7 lights. 15k pen on mag toons barely shows. I'm getting 12k tooltips fragmented to like 2k by the same guys one-roting me. My ~30 resists with Major Prot, Minor Prot, and 10% additional melts even if turtling/block healing. I'm not looking for *everything* - I wouldn't even begin to know how to NHM - but I'd like to get *something*. I'd like 6k weapon damage to matter. I'd like pen to matter. I'd like literally anything I attempt to matter. I can top or 2nd place on most of my BG leaderboards, but the minute someone that knows what they're doing actually shows up, none of my character sheet seems to matter. I slam them to 95% over and over, and then I get one-rot and I'm in the ground. My characters built for damage have no damage. My characters built for survivability have no survivability. No sets/weapons/playstyle adjustments seems to matter, I just never seem to have the math to compete anywhere outside of BGs - and then only sometimes.

- gold weapons, gold armor, I keep my buffs up, i weave/cancel, i know basic comboing and LoSing
- yes, whatever sets you're about to suggest I've probably tried. Sets are not the problem. I am not dying to my gear. I'm dying because fundamentally I don't understand why my math doesn't seem to matter. Everything else becomes secondary because the core problem is that when I hit someone, it doesn't hurt. When I get hit, it always hurts. Usually I'd suggest people watch content creators that know what they're doing, and I do. And I replicate actions, but not results. I just straight up don't seem to hit as hard (outside of stamden burger flipper, RIP. A build so easy even I could get KBs). I only put this here to avoid "well try Set X + Set Y on Class Z", because that's not an answer to the problem.

Since I assume I'm not the only one to ever have been here, what did you guys do/learn to fix this? What am I missing? Where would you go from here?

How do I get better?

Kadoin · October 2019

No help can be given without a video. But generally, what I've found is weapon damage and even weapon crit don't really matter. What you really want to do is keep as many debuffs on your opponent as possible, and as many buffs up on yourself as possible (and HoTs).

Also stacking defense becomes negliable at some point, and it is always better to block and roll. You only want enough defense to be able to withstand a few hits when it lags or you get double-triple cc'd IMO. Otherwise, you're better off investing in HoTs, block reduction, roll reduction, speed, or general sustain.

Also there are certain combination techniques that take practice and do massive damage in an instant (usually via medium or heavy attack and a skill or CC + skills/ult). Through these certain combination or tactics even a build with the absolute basic offensive stats can take 1/4 or more of even the strongest tanks' hp bar away. With the knowledge of these combinations and the skill to pull it of you can run a tanky build and still output large amounts of damage in PvE and PvP.

Zelos · October 2019

I'm hoping you dont actually have 6k weapon damage on a magicka toon like you stated:) I've min maxed my build perfectly. So much so that when I put it together in horns of the reach I still use it now and its more then useful:) You need to ask a specific question and provide the information like the build you are using or screenshots.

grannas211 · October 2019

equip the darkwood grain ring

Zski · October 2019

Zelos wrote: »

I'm hoping you dont actually have 6k weapon damage on a magicka toon like you stated:) I've min maxed my build perfectly. So much so that when I put it together in horns of the reach its still relevant right now and more then useful:) You need to ask a specific question and provide the information like the build you are using or screenshots.

I was probably unclear there - I've attempted a LOT of builds. I don't have 6k WD on a mag toon. I've had 6k, had high pen mag toons, high pen stam toons with less WD. I was posting there more "a variety of benchmarks across attempts" since the same trouble I had a few patches ago in 7th/legion/BS happened in Brass/Sprigg/X. Spinner's/BTB or Spinner's/Armor Master or shackle...you see where I'm going with this. I don't know if a single build post would really help as I'm not struggling with *a* build, I'm struggling with the logic of the game and the parameters of playing it.

We've actually fought a few times back pre-Dizzy nerf. I shalk/burgerflipped you, you walked it off and then I died to a swarm of blues I think. Which I guess is sort of topic-relevant-adjacent.

Grimlok_S · October 2019

If you have all the gear requirements met and understand the theorycrafting, the only thing you haven't mentioned is CP allocation. Though, you do mention following popular content creators. So you will at least have an understanding of what/why CP is allocated the way it is.

Once you have your personalized CP dialed in, the only thing left is practice, practice, practice.

Ask if anyone in your guilds wants to practice, try near the Undaunted section of Wayrest. You'll find a pretty wide array of players there also looking to improve, as well as a few of those Ninjas you referenced above. Talk to them, watch them duel others, duel them. One of the best/only ways to improve your micro skill, IMO.

Zelos · October 2019

Zski wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

I'm hoping you dont actually have 6k weapon damage on a magicka toon like you stated:) I've min maxed my build perfectly. So much so that when I put it together in horns of the reach its still relevant right now and more then useful:) You need to ask a specific question and provide the information like the build you are using or screenshots.

I was probably unclear there - I've attempted a LOT of builds. I don't have 6k WD on a mag toon. I've had 6k, had high pen mag toons, high pen stam toons with less WD. I was posting there more "a variety of benchmarks across attempts" since the same trouble I had a few patches ago in 7th/legion/BS happened in Brass/Sprigg/X. Spinner's/BTB or Spinner's/Armor Master or shackle...you see where I'm going with this. I don't know if a single build post would really help as I'm not struggling with *a* build, I'm struggling with the logic of the game and the parameters of playing it.

We've actually fought a few times back pre-Dizzy nerf. I shalk/burgerflipped you, you walked it off and then I died to a swarm of blues I think. Which I guess is sort of topic-relevant-adjacent.

Ill write this long thing just for you and anyone else who needs a build template:)
Eh doesnt matter alot of people know who I am and dont like me because they actually think I cheat due to being able to burst them and seem to never die. I strictly 1vX and have so for years. You need to know how to build effectively, I mean if I can use the same build for a year and a half just because I min maxed it as far as I possibly could anyone can. A good place to start is how to get damage, there is 4 main categories of damage output I have put together myself.
1. Raw percentile damage. - things like berserk, 6% from greatsword, etc...
2. Penetration damage. - spinners, spriggans, CP, passives, etc...
3. Weapon/Spell damage values.
4. Max Magicka/Stamina values.
These are also in the order of the best to worst. Raw percentile damage is by far the best since you can infinitely stack it if you had enough sources. Penetration damage is second best contrary to popular belief. Since penetration is converted into a raw percentile like the 1st type its limited. Its all anchored on how much resistance you go through making it extremely volatile the amount of "converted" damage is also capped. The resistance cap is also the penetration cap:) last I heard it was like 35k or something. So you might have 15k pen and are attacking someone at 12k resistance cant get the converted damage if there is nothing left to penetrate:). That means the the damage you should get for the extra 3k pen you have is not getting added as actually damage, and in this sense its "wasted potential". This doesnt happen with the 1st type, you can just keep stacking it up. Weapon and spell damage modifiers are next, they are better then max stats for damage there are more sources of increasing these then max stats. There is no rally for max stamina, AKA "Increase max stamina by 20%" This doesnt exist for stats but does for weapon and spell damage values along with countless sets. However if you want to be able to do more while achieving less damage output as a whole you can build max stats. Max stats are good for 1vX because they allow you to use more defensive functions like rolling, blocking, etc.. while still getting some damage. People who build something like Truth for the weapon damage and Hulking are mixing between the two damage types. This is result in damage loss and less build synergy. Here is my build that I used to min max and Ill explain it in detail remember those damage types:)
I run on stamina nightblade
2 Bloodspawn
5 Impreg
5 Shield breaker
Greatsword nirnhoned
Bow infused weapon damage.
3 well fitted
4 Impen
10 points into health, 54 into stamina,
Lava foot soup as a drink.
3 Prismatic glyphs on big pieces.
Khajiit

So lets break it down. starting with set synergy:) which I think is very important.
Defensive wise we need to cover 2 places Critcal resistance, and spell/physical I run bloodspawn this gives me 6450 of each of those along with my major buffs on my kit. Impregs 5 piece along with impen/cp gives me 4500 critcal resistance I also have 10% from relentless stacking and another 15% from shades minor maim. So I ended up covering both categories I wanted for defense and more. What about sustain? Bloodspawn gives 1 stam regen, shield breaker gives 1 stam regen. Thats good enough for me on top of serpent CP and the lava foot soup adds up to give me about 2400 unbuffed regen. What about utility now? So the max stats from Impreg add to this quite well, along with the ult gen from bloodspawn, shield breaker also gives me more max stamina, I have on 3 well fitted to roll more as well since impreg I can be more loose with my traits, to provide more utility without sacrificing defense. Now what about damage output? Seems weak right? wrong, I have 30% raw damage output from the 1st category I stated above, I have minor vul. and berserk. shield breaker and greatsword with off balance on an enemy. I have 0 penetration because of stacking into this so heavily to get a major raw percentile output, guess what:) I also get to all the penetration I need to kill someone from onslaught:) So I have just maxed out the first 2 damage categories without even touching Weapon damage or max stamina modifiers yet, so I also have 4600 buffed weapon damage and 35k max stamina as an add-on to my damage. I decided to put more stamina in over weapon damage to use more rolls or blocking for a couple of seconds to reduce damage done to me. I wanted the majority of my damage to come from the first 2 categories which are the best. I have as much raw percentile damage possible in the game without equipping essence thief, and I also maximize my penetration values to the persons I am going to burst, to perfectly go through there resistances. I even more damage against shielded targets, something that nightblade struggles with. The build is all synergy, I get major utility and defense from impreg and bloodspawn. Damage from my shield breaker, passives, and skills. So when I look over the build everything is covered that I want covered. Sustain, damage, defense, and survivability + recovery:)

My ending stats are as follows with no buffs

14.5k magicka 24.5k health 35.1k stamina, 2900 weapon damage, 2400 stamina regen, 900 magicka regen, 4500 critical resistance, 12k physical/spell resistance *edit* also I have about 45% Critical chance on frontbar due to expert hunter to get me the minor berserk adding more synergy to the build because I get more critical damage as a kitty:)

This setup for the last year and a half or so is good enough to get people to think I actually cheat because I am able to burst anyone and survive almost anything(given I can actually use skills and am running over 30 fps). I know exactly where to get my damage from and when to execute a burst at exactly the right time, I have 8 different burst methods. 4 Direct bursts and 4 reverse bursts each tailored to a different armor type, class or weapon. I create a hypothesis in a fight and experiment it by picking a burst I need to use. Noob player is going to be a direct burst, now are they in medium light or heavy armor? next is what class? If its a nightblade I need to use expert hunter in the middle of the burst to compensate for their cloaking. Are they a experienced player, then I need to use a reverse burst so they cant see it coming. Same questions:) This process happens in milliseconds for me since I have refined it for so long by 1vXing. Dueling wont train the process 1vXing will, you will be constantly making new decisions and reforming theories on how to survive or burst in 1vX; picking out targets or finding healers. Weak players first, always even if they are light attacking only, its damage you dont need to be taking if they are dead. That's what makes a good player, not dueling but 1vXing. Trains your decision making in combat, ever since I 1vX dueling for me seems SOOO SLOW and tasteless because I am use to observing and recording at 10x that speed and against 10 players with 10 bursts that I need to calculate. Thats how you need to learn after building good, trial by error is the best way:)

TBois · October 2019

The things I feel helped me get to a point where I feel confident in most 1v1 and where I feel I can jump into fights that I probably won't win with the hope of overcoming it.

1. I've played for 5 years.
2. I dead a lot, and I tried to learn from each death. Do not be afraid of death in this game as there is little to no penalty, and do not be afraid to ask an opponent questions you may have after fighting them.
3. I played pretty much one toon for those while 5 years. While some may say to play every class to learn the basics of a class, I decided I didn't have enough time to get as good as I wanted to be with multiple classes. So I stuck with one class learning the basics of the other classes by fighting against them, and I believe that decision has helped me immensely getting to where I am and maintaining that skill level. (You might be able to apply the same thought to type of pvp; solo open world, small group, large group, nocp, cp, etc. These are all variations that may hinder you if you are trying to get good at them all at once.)
4. Once I became proficient enough in my knowledge of the core mechanics (probably around where you are now, that middle level) I began developing a personalized build for how I play. It took many iterations, but I was able to tweak and develop the build while tweaking and developing my playstyle to fit each other. So stop playing other people's builds and try to find the mechanics that intrigue you the most and build around that. You will want to play more too if you are excited about what you built. Still expect to die a bunch, but dont let it deter you.
5. I dueled people that were willing to talk about their builds and our fights.
6. I never thought it was a problem that there were "Ninja Havel Monsters, " as you do. I always looked up to those players as a level of ability I could strive to acheive.

Ultimately I doubt you will get the insight you are looking for. I would put your question along with the question of, "I've been banging my head against vma for months how do I beat it? Dont tell me practice." The answer to these questions are too intricate to sum up, and ultimately involve more practice. Just like completing vma, you will be stoked when you feel like you've gotten to where you want. When you get that feeling try and remember this thread, and see if you could sum up what it took to get there besides practice. If you can zos should pay you to develop a pvp tutorial.

Jimmy_The_Fixer · October 2019

The dirty secret is that your specific sets don’t really matter all that much. As long as you’re in the general ballpark of ok stats there’s much more important things to focus on.

Practice and comfort with your build>>>>>>>>
Weapon Type
Skillbar Setup
Armor Type

Iskiab · October 2019

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned, damage tooltips are important but not as important as your burst. When people describe classes as hard to play or easy to play, they’re basicly talking about how easy their burst is to line up.

Most healing is hot based, that means if you do consistent amounts of good damage it can be easy to mitigate. The way to punch through is to stack damage so it hits in the same global cooldown.

A good example would be sorc because they’re known as being easy to play. If you’re doing consistent good damage it can feel ineffective because as you do damage a tanky target will have hots rolling healing for the same amount every GCD.

Instead start with say curse. You then know it will hit X amount of seconds later. then wrath prior to the curse hitting and then use your frag proc and time it for when curse will hit.

In theory you can get wrath + curse + the frag proc + light attack (possibly with overload) to all hit on the same GCD.

Then instead of spamming stuns, stun around the same time too so you can add another GCD worth or damage without them being able to respond.

Don’t look at pvp as doing the most damage, look at pvp success as doing the most damage in the shortest amount of time for burst.

In general pvp is about burst and cc, PvE is about sustained damage so dots and whatnot. Change up your mindset and you’ll improve.

Nerftheforums · October 2019

Fast answer:
1) learn to line up burst
2) learn to keep up buffs and debuffs
2) CP cap & allocation matter a lot
3) Play solo. Like, really solo. Go away from your faction's zerg, take a resource, fight until you can, kite, pick out the weaklings, die, repeat. This is how the ninjas got where they are: years of solo/small scale experience that taught them to not make mistakes. Never. A good example imo is Kenta: look at his videos and count the errors he makes. It's crazy how precise that guy is.

Waffennacht · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned, damage tooltips are important but not as important as your burst. When people describe classes as hard to play or easy to play, they’re basicly talking about how easy their burst is to line up.

Most healing is hot based, that means if you do consistent amounts of good damage it can be easy to mitigate. The way to punch through is to stack damage so it hits in the same global cooldown.

A good example would be sorc because they’re known as being easy to play. If you’re doing consistent good damage it can feel ineffective because as you do damage a tanky target will have hots rolling healing for the same amount every GCD.

Instead start with say curse. You then know it will hit X amount of seconds later. then wrath prior to the curse hitting and then use your frag proc and time it for when curse will hit.

In theory you can get wrath + curse + the frag proc + light attack (possibly with overload) to all hit on the same GCD.

Then instead of spamming stuns, stun around the same time too so you can add another GCD worth or damage without them being able to respond.

Don’t look at pvp as doing the most damage, look at pvp success as doing the most damage in the shortest amount of time for burst.

In general pvp is about burst and cc, PvE is about sustained damage so dots and whatnot. Change up your mindset and you’ll improve.

1. ZoS has purposely removed reliable CCs
2. ZoS has removed most potent burst combos (except onslaught)
3. ZoS has removed undodgeable/unblockable CCs for the most part
4. ZoS has reduced single target damage over time
5. ZoS has nerfed damage providing sets
6. ZoS has nerfed defile/counter play

Good luck bursting anything but a potato