Should there be an additional minor/major debuff to counter Mending?
ExistingRug61
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As per Title.
Note that while there is already Defile (+Befoul), which reduces healing received, this is actually the counter to Vitality (+Quick recovery), which increases healing received, as opposed to being a counter to Mending. As such it is currently possible to stack significantly higher healing modifiers than reduced healing modifiers.
The counter to Mending would have the effect of reducing healing done. (Interaction with Befoul or potentially a changed CP star may also have to be adjusted).
If player skills could apply such a debuff, this may give additional counters to healers in PVP. A functional difference would be that you have to apply the debuff to the player performing the healing, not the player receiving the healing (in the case they are not the same).
It would also have no effect on PvE healers, unless in the future some bosses are given the ability to use the debuff.
Note that while there is already Defile (+Befoul), which reduces healing received, this is actually the counter to Vitality (+Quick recovery), which increases healing received, as opposed to being a counter to Mending. As such it is currently possible to stack significantly higher healing modifiers than reduced healing modifiers.
The counter to Mending would have the effect of reducing healing done. (Interaction with Befoul or potentially a changed CP star may also have to be adjusted).
If player skills could apply such a debuff, this may give additional counters to healers in PVP. A functional difference would be that you have to apply the debuff to the player performing the healing, not the player receiving the healing (in the case they are not the same).
It would also have no effect on PvE healers, unless in the future some bosses are given the ability to use the debuff.
Should there be an additional minor/major debuff to counter Mending? 43 votes
Yes
23%
10 votes
No
74%
32 votes
Other (please comment)
2%
1 vote
0
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brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoSo you can double dip? No.
Defile the healer and their self heals are now damaged. Then you focus the healer.
Healers shouldn't be further penalized for healing.1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭brandonv516 wrote: »So you can double dip? No.
Defile the healer and their self heals are now damaged. Then you focus the healer.
Healers shouldn't be further penalized for healing.
Oh no, they would have to purge the debuff, oh gods the horror!5 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
Healers can currently double dip by getting both Mending and Vitality.brandonv516 wrote: »So you can double dip? No.
Defile the healer and their self heals are now damaged. Then you focus the healer.
Healers shouldn't be further penalized for healing.
Why shouldn't the player trying to defeat them be able to even the playing field? (or at least attempt to, until it gets purged)4 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would rather preffer rebalance of healing in general. Zos should find a better middle ground between selfheals and heals that can also be used on allies.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nobrandonv516 wrote: »So you can double dip? No.
Defile the healer and their self heals are now damaged. Then you focus the healer.
Healers shouldn't be further penalized for healing.
This and it can be stacked much more than vitality can.0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭NoThe issue is the amount of skills/ sets giving defile vs those giving mending or vitality. It is alot easier to get both defiles than any two minor and major mending or vitality.
Without going into sets because then we’d be here all week. Classes with aoe skill based major defile: magplars, stamnecros, magden. DK is the only class with skill access to either maj vitality or major mending outside of the nb healing ult, with fragmented shield. There is no skill or set that gives aoe major vitality or mending outside of the nb healing ult. Mystic guard is the only means I know of, besides BRP resto that goves someone else any minor/ maj vitality/ mending buff.
Minor mending or vitality? Templars in ritual or rune radius and 4 secs after, and dragonknights with gdb and nbs with Healthy offering. You don’t run healthy offering on anybody but a healer and gdb is not run often on stamdks outside of tanks.
There are plenty more sets that give good uptime of defile vs those that give uptime of mending/ vitality.
On my stam necro I use lethal arrow and blastbones for both maj and min defile. If I wanted to play something that had any combo of both maj and minor vitality/mending I’d be forced into BRP resto staff on a templar or a magdk using gdb or a set with it as a 5piece. It is alot easier for dps specs to get defile than mending or vitality outside of stamdk.
If you are fighting a pure healer with vitality or mending as a dps, yes it will take awhile or forever even with defile (depends significantly on skill/build though). If you use both maj and minor defile vs other dps, their heals will be impacted significantly,0 -
BaiterOfZergs✭✭✭✭✭We’d most likely end up back in a “defile” meta, remember how that one went. It would be better to just meticulously adjust healing instead doing blanket nerfs.Edited by BaiterOfZergs on October 28, 2019 5:03AMZerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
Thanks for the detailed reply @Vizirith.The issue is the amount of skills/ sets giving defile vs those giving mending or vitality. It is alot easier to get both defiles than any two minor and major mending or vitality.
Without going into sets because then we’d be here all week. Classes with aoe skill based major defile: magplars, stamnecros, magden. DK is the only class with skill access to either maj vitality or major mending outside of the nb healing ult, with fragmented shield. There is no skill or set that gives aoe major vitality or mending outside of the nb healing ult. Mystic guard is the only means I know of, besides BRP resto that goves someone else any minor/ maj vitality/ mending buff.
Minor mending or vitality? Templars in ritual or rune radius and 4 secs after, and dragonknights with gdb and nbs with Healthy offering. You don’t run healthy offering on anybody but a healer and gdb is not run often on stamdks outside of tanks.
There are plenty more sets that give good uptime of defile vs those that give uptime of mending/ vitality.
On my stam necro I use lethal arrow and blastbones for both maj and min defile. If I wanted to play something that had any combo of both maj and minor vitality/mending I’d be forced into BRP resto staff on a templar or a magdk using gdb or a set with it as a 5piece. It is alot easier for dps specs to get defile than mending or vitality outside of stamdk.
If you are fighting a pure healer with vitality or mending as a dps, yes it will take awhile or forever even with defile (depends significantly on skill/build though). If you use both maj and minor defile vs other dps, their heals will be impacted significantly,
I guess I when I was posing this question it was too much from a theoretical balance point of view considering the total amount of modifiers available, as opposed to considering the practicality of which/how many modifiers a player would actually viably be able to use, which was an oversight on my part. Clearly the fact that defile is much more easily and widely available is an alternative balance to the fact that there are are larger number (of less readily available) of healing modifiers.Edited by ExistingRug61 on October 28, 2019 6:06AM0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoYou’re looking to counter an issue that doesn’t exist.
Healers do use healing but not healing received, healing received (vitality) is inefficient because of the opportunity cost, it’s not worth the investment.
The only class that really benefits from vitality are DKs because of easy access. If you add another debuff it won’t hurt them nearly as much as it’d hurt NBs or classes without a lot of self healing.
Besides, defile already double dips. It reduces healing and health recovery; where health recovery, healing received and healing done are three different buffs.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Befoul is also not equal in CP investment. It is MUCH cheaper to invest in defile than Healing or Health Recovery.
Befoul - 31 points = 21%
Quick Recovery - 31 points = 7%
Blessed - 31 points = 7%
Healthy - 31 points = 7%
1v1, a dps trying to take down a dedicated healer build should be extremely difficult. A healer who can't survive the pressure of a single opponent isn't much of a healer.
Group play, the problem is the wide availability of Minor Protection, percentage based damage reduction sets, and a huge moving AOE Major Protection ultimate on a class with Major Heroism built into a great defensive skill. Mobility is important and powerful. Otherwise Veil of Blades would be just as popular as a group defensive ultimate.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoBefoul is also not equal in CP investment. It is MUCH cheaper to invest in defile than Healing or Health Recovery.
Befoul - 31 points = 21%
Quick Recovery - 31 points = 7%
Blessed - 31 points = 7%
Healthy - 31 points = 7%
1v1, a dps trying to take down a dedicated healer build should be extremely difficult. A healer who can't survive the pressure of a single opponent isn't much of a healer.
Group play, the problem is the wide availability of Minor Protection, percentage based damage reduction sets, and a huge moving AOE Major Protection ultimate on a class with Major Heroism built into a great defensive skill. Mobility is important and powerful. Otherwise Veil of Blades would be just as popular as a group defensive ultimate.
Bringing up actual numbers makes a very good point. As stated earlier it is much easier to stack reducing healing received which is the actual counter to the healing buff.0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoWhy should all healing be nerfed because of BRP resto and BRP DW? The entire game should not have to be balanced around two sets that have been OP since they were introduced.
Major vitality is only available with no cooldown or drawbacks on one "set" BRP Resto. You're saying that players that refuse to slot that cheese or BRP DW should have to suffer from additional debuffs because ZOS won't nerf two sets no one can seriously argue aren't OP even compared to every other alternative in the game?
No. I'd rather they balance those sets instead of conveniently ignoring any input on them.1 -
SipofMaim✭✭✭✭NoWhy should all healing be nerfed because of BRP resto and BRP DW? The entire game should not have to be balanced around two sets that have been OP since they were introduced.
Major vitality is only available with no cooldown or drawbacks on one "set" BRP Resto. You're saying that players that refuse to slot that cheese or BRP DW should have to suffer from additional debuffs because ZOS won't nerf two sets no one can seriously argue aren't OP even compared to every other alternative in the game?
No. I'd rather they balance those sets instead of conveniently ignoring any input on them.
Agreed. Why they add **** like this to the game when they already can't even approach stable combat balance is a mystery.
I mean, it's not. They want people to grind for gear, it's easier than trying to create fun. But maybe think it through a little a lot better.0 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoIf they could manage to pander to the PvP base without destroying healing for PvE, I could get behind this. As it is though, we're stuck with both sides of the game sharing skills, like conjoined twins sharing a butthole, and it genuinely sucks. They just need to reduce healing on others by an additional 30% in Battle Spirit, on top of the 50% reduction to all healing that already exists.
They really should never have made the weapons available on normal in BRP, but the damage has already been done. Rather than ruin yet another arena weapon (ZoS has been doing a bang up job of making them all pretty useless), maybe the OP's idea of another anti-healing skill isn't a bad one. Just keep in mind, it'll effect everyone it's used on, not just healers, and not just those who use the BRP resto. That means your OP vigor spam could be made a lot less useful.PC/Xbox NA
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