This just feels awful.
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Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
I feel your pain. I used to do around 10k DPS, which was quite enough for me. It took a fair bit of gearing to get to that, but I didn't really WANT more damage, because it would trivialize the game.
Then they did an update and my DPS dropped to about 5-6k. That stung, but it was ok. I always build to survive, not to do damage. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer, makes the fight more dramatic.
Then they did another update, and now my DPS is between 2-5k. I do almost 2k BARE HANDED. My durability hasn't suffered all that much, at least (knocking furiously on wood), but it's really taxing to have to spend half an hour at minimum to kill a world boss, when it USED to go a fair bit quicker.
The damage levels were, and still ARE, out of control. The problem wasn't the little guys like me doing 10k dps, it was the upper end of the curve, where I hear of people doing up to 100k dps, with the "norm" being 30-50k. They needed to do something to scale THOSE numbers back, to make the disparity between the bottom and the top damage somewhat less drastic. I recommended a system of diminishing returns, where the higher your dps goes, the HARDER it is to increase it further. Top level DPS shouldn't exceed, probably 20-30k. At that level, people won't be obliterating everything in less than a second, which means more potential challenge for THEM, and less chance that others won't have access to the content (either because it's all dead already, or because the damage requirements are SO far beyond them that they can't contribute).
I feel, and have said, that I think it's needed for the health of the game. It might mean scaling back some of the higher end content so it's not as challenging as it is now, to accommodate the lower dps at the high end, but that should be easily done.
So, basically, no one's doing 100k. The 100k numbers that get thrown around, most of the time, are people parsing on the trial dummy. This is a training dummy that already has all of the relevant raid buffs/debuffs active. So, you're simulating your parse against a target in a "perfect" group. 40-50k is a more reasonable target.
There, is content in the game that would be impossible to complete if DPS was hard caped at 30k. (Not a lot, and most of it is tied to achievements, while not necessary for clears, but it does exist.)
Also, there are diminishing returns. Getting into your mid-20s, to mid-30s is pretty easy. In your case, the biggest stumbling block is probably just your weave.
So, weaving is mixing light attacks in with your active abilities. The entire thought processes is, there's a global cooldown of ~1s for each active ability, and a GCD of ~1s for each light (or heavy) attack. However, those GCDs are separate. So, what you do is, activate an ability, wait about half a second until the ability has actually applied, and then you light attack, about half a second later, you fire off your next ability, and then your next light attack. For someone who's doing low damage, even a partial weave can be an enormous damage increase.
Note that your weave timing will be slightly different based on your weapon. So, it may take some experimentation to get your timing down.
I understand that. My point remains, however. If it's this animation cancelling/weaving thing that's allowing players to reach such absurd levels of damage, then it's THAT they should be looking at. If that's what's creating the divide between ordinary players like me who don't really have any idea about weaving beyond the creation of quilts, rugs or hairpieces, and those with gigantic damage numbers, then curtailing the weaving should bring the TOP damage numbers down without reducing the lower damage people's numbers (well, not much).
Of course, doing this in isolation WOULD make some content unplayable, and it would need to be recalibrated accordingly.
Having said all that, my playstyle hasn't changed across all the updates, and I still took a 70-80% hit to my damage output that had nothing to do with a weave or lack of it.
If you dont want animation canceling go play a different game. Ita not leaving. If your dps took an 80% dps loss and you havent changed anything it's on you.
I think you're missing my point, but it's not one this thread was created to discuss. Suffice to say that I believe the disparity between the bottom and the top dps is too great, and that it is bad for the game as a whole. The source of this disparity doesn't matter, that it exists does. Also suffice to say that you don't agree. Rather than get into this discussion here, perhaps I'll start another thread on the topic.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »Of course, doing this in isolation WOULD make some content unplayable, and it would need to be recalibrated accordingly.
It would render all endgame content developed after ~2016 unplayable.
This wouldn't require a simple, "recalibration." Most vet content developed after One Tamriel would have to be completely redesigned.
And, no, I'm not exaggerating.
All of this for a combat system that would feel less responsive, and would be clunkier.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
I feel your pain. I used to do around 10k DPS, which was quite enough for me. It took a fair bit of gearing to get to that, but I didn't really WANT more damage, because it would trivialize the game.
Then they did an update and my DPS dropped to about 5-6k. That stung, but it was ok. I always build to survive, not to do damage. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer, makes the fight more dramatic.
Then they did another update, and now my DPS is between 2-5k. I do almost 2k BARE HANDED. My durability hasn't suffered all that much, at least (knocking furiously on wood), but it's really taxing to have to spend half an hour at minimum to kill a world boss, when it USED to go a fair bit quicker.
The damage levels were, and still ARE, out of control. The problem wasn't the little guys like me doing 10k dps, it was the upper end of the curve, where I hear of people doing up to 100k dps, with the "norm" being 30-50k. They needed to do something to scale THOSE numbers back, to make the disparity between the bottom and the top damage somewhat less drastic. I recommended a system of diminishing returns, where the higher your dps goes, the HARDER it is to increase it further. Top level DPS shouldn't exceed, probably 20-30k. At that level, people won't be obliterating everything in less than a second, which means more potential challenge for THEM, and less chance that others won't have access to the content (either because it's all dead already, or because the damage requirements are SO far beyond them that they can't contribute).
I feel, and have said, that I think it's needed for the health of the game. It might mean scaling back some of the higher end content so it's not as challenging as it is now, to accommodate the lower dps at the high end, but that should be easily done.
So, basically, no one's doing 100k. The 100k numbers that get thrown around, most of the time, are people parsing on the trial dummy. This is a training dummy that already has all of the relevant raid buffs/debuffs active. So, you're simulating your parse against a target in a "perfect" group. 40-50k is a more reasonable target.
There, is content in the game that would be impossible to complete if DPS was hard caped at 30k. (Not a lot, and most of it is tied to achievements, while not necessary for clears, but it does exist.)
Also, there are diminishing returns. Getting into your mid-20s, to mid-30s is pretty easy. In your case, the biggest stumbling block is probably just your weave.
So, weaving is mixing light attacks in with your active abilities. The entire thought processes is, there's a global cooldown of ~1s for each active ability, and a GCD of ~1s for each light (or heavy) attack. However, those GCDs are separate. So, what you do is, activate an ability, wait about half a second until the ability has actually applied, and then you light attack, about half a second later, you fire off your next ability, and then your next light attack. For someone who's doing low damage, even a partial weave can be an enormous damage increase.
Note that your weave timing will be slightly different based on your weapon. So, it may take some experimentation to get your timing down.
I understand that. My point remains, however. If it's this animation cancelling/weaving thing that's allowing players to reach such absurd levels of damage, then it's THAT they should be looking at. If that's what's creating the divide between ordinary players like me who don't really have any idea about weaving beyond the creation of quilts, rugs or hairpieces, and those with gigantic damage numbers, then curtailing the weaving should bring the TOP damage numbers down without reducing the lower damage people's numbers (well, not much).
Of course, doing this in isolation WOULD make some content unplayable, and it would need to be recalibrated accordingly.
Having said all that, my playstyle hasn't changed across all the updates, and I still took a 70-80% hit to my damage output that had nothing to do with a weave or lack of it.
If you dont want animation canceling go play a different game. Ita not leaving. If your dps took an 80% dps loss and you havent changed anything it's on you.
I think you're missing my point, but it's not one this thread was created to discuss. Suffice to say that I believe the disparity between the bottom and the top dps is too great, and that it is bad for the game as a whole. The source of this disparity doesn't matter, that it exists does. Also suffice to say that you don't agree. Rather than get into this discussion here, perhaps I'll start another thread on the topic.
The disparity is a problem. However, removing animation canceling, or capping maximum possible DPS, aren't viable solutions.
A hard cap would simply see people slamming into it and sitting there. Much like in the softcap days, you'd see them then turn their additional, unusable, damage into survival or other utility. PvP would piviot into unkillable tanks, literally unkillable in this case, because they'd know players couldn't push their damage hard enough to kill them.
Removing animation canceling would result in a very kludgy combat system, which would be indistinguishable from a lot of far less successful MMOs on the market. Take this out, and you wouldn't have the ESO you enjoyed, the game would be gone.
Where the game does falter is, not having a tutorial to adequately explain these systems to the player. Including, failing to introduce them to animation canceling in a safe environment.0 -
amir412✭✭✭✭✭
✭The nerfs to dots are justified.
There should not be an easy path, just because players are not willing to learn the game.0 -
Warndihr✭✭✭I asume that Z is trying to balance the game. I played Lineage2 for 15 years and NCSoft was doing this kind of changes all the time, so Im used to this. In ESO you can atleast reset skills and CP and gear is easy to get.0 -
Nordic__Knights✭✭✭✭✭
✭Every time there's a bad change people jumping here and say they are casual players it's kind of funny because when the patches are good hardcore Grinders not casual players no longer so make up your mind as to what you really are and speak the truth0 -
Aurie✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Aurie if it's no longer fun, take a break. You dont have to force yourself to play.
@MajBludd Ah haha, was wondering what you were talking about for a moment!
In fact I was looking at things from other players' point of view, as I often sometimes do.
I still have huge fun in ESO, and it has been the only MMO I've played for at least a couple of years now. Not anticipating it becoming unfun for a while, but when it does I'll be off in a flash to pastures new. I've played too many MMOs in my time to worry about not staying beyond their sell by date
.Edited by Aurie on October 28, 2019 11:43PM0
