I've investigated why even the "casual players who kill dragons" are considering quitting now.

FierceSam · October 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

.

There is ample proof people are leaving the game, just look at the forums. ?

And yet they have had to implement a one out one in queue system for the PC EU server.... Although that is a rancid thing to do, it does kind of indicate that the game population is perfectly healthy. If ZOS are really trying to drive players away then they are doing their usual bang up job.

Everyone who posts here needs to recognise that this forum represents a very small fraction of the total playerbase. The vast majority of players of all levels never visit these forums, let alone pays them any attention.

These changes haven’t altered the content I am able to do, the content I find most challenging is still very hard, but doable. My dungeon DPS varies from 30k to 115k and I am way from good.

If OP couldn’t get into a progression guild because of their DPS numbers, then either their guild may have to amend their criteria or OP will have to improve. Isn’t that what progression is all about?

starkerealm · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Well, I am talking about that nice practice that involves having Dragonhold running since a couple of days, while the patch notes about it are still not out as of today.

Using the example above, imagine if in real life people would be stopped by the police and car confiscated... while the law about it is still in draft and not public yet!

Also, drama = "that thing that happens when somebody I don't care about gets hit by some bad thing I don't really care about, I really don't understand why all the fuss".

Given it got pushed live. Given that there were huge, screaming notices saying, "patch dropped today," the whole idea that "it's in draft," is frankly ludicrous. It's also the problem with this entire analogy. You're arguing that the law shouldn't be enforceable if someone chooses to remain ignorant of it. That's not how any of this works.

Much like with the "laws in the real world" example, there was a lot of discussion about this patch. Hell, we did weekly coverage on the podcast and it broke me, Kyle, and Xynode. It was a grueling PTS cycle. The only way you'd be completely unaware of it is if you chose to ignore it until after the last moment. At which point, wait for it? They still didn't take the keys away from you. You're still able to run the same content as before, if you're good enough to clear it.

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Because, this is a, "won't someone think of the children," argument, redressed for forum consumption. It's the same reason when they decide they can't win on actual logic, and revert to an analogy, their first thought process leads them to age examples.

Too bad this is a game and it's paid exactly like other forms of entertrainment / services.

What do you get with your logic, defending a terrible movie or an awful restaurant? People just get sick and tired of it!

You hammer on the minority who are actually so nice to provide feedback instead of just leaving like most others.

Not sure if you've actually paid attention to any critique before. There's a huge subgenre of film criticism that runs around the idea of, "sure, this move is ****ing horrible, but it's also so damn good."

You think Drive Angry is a bad film? Sure, it is, but it's also ****ing brilliant.

What's genuinely hilarious about this is, your complaints cover a relatively minor element when it comes to evaluating the game as a whole. It's like watching Drive Angry and going, "how can you defend this movie, it's utter trash, the color temperature shifts are way too extreme!?"

And, no, there's nothing "kind" about coming onto a forum and trying to derail conversations with irrelevant, poorly fitting, analogies.

This isn't feedback. This is just a tantrum about how the red numbers are going down, without any thought or consideration to the system as a whole.

Vahrokh wrote: »

I know some in this thread will dismiss it as "fair weather players", but imagine yourself in the shoes of a guy who just got hired in an high level trial guild. He had to leave his old guild / stop running with them and all and; now he's possibly going to get kicked from the new guild because his class has been severely hit by the sustain nerfs.

Let's be blunt, for a moment. If someone is joining a guild because of their DPS and only their DPS, and that guild will kick them if their DPS drops. That guild is doing them a favor. Guilds are about their community. Numbers are great and all, but you're not there to push numbers, you're there to share time with friends. A raw mechanical progression through content may satisfy some of the most hardcore OCD raid humpers, but that's not a community. A half-decent guild will stick with you, and if you're hurt by a nerf, they'll help you to adapt and overcome. A guild worth being a member of will not abandon you because your numbers dipped.

Vahrokh wrote: »

A picture is worth a thousand words:

Vahrokh wrote: »

Normal people are not morons.

Debatable, but also worth remembering that the average player doesn't run endgame content.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I'm casual. I dabble in Vet dungeons, normal DLC dungeons, and normal trials. I hate that my Pet Sorc now costs 2x times the resources and does much less damage. In January, I could hit 43k self buffed non-trial dummy. Now I get 33k and my skills cost more. Not to mention what Murkmire did to my shield that was aiding me in attempting vMA (lost hope after Nerfmire, now there is no chance).

Super fun game where you get penalized by trying to get better.

If you're hitting 33k DPS then you've parsed higher then I ever have in PVE

... and you feel entitled patronising other people with such numbers? That is < 33k?

How you can white knight that game is OK and nice when you wouldn't even be allowed in a barely decent trial guild to PROVE that the game is OK now?

I can totally relate with @Moloch1514 and his struggle. He just went from being let into an above hm Craglorn trials guild down to a casual vet Craglorn guild. That really ruins his efforts and his morale!

"... and you feel entitled patronising other people with such numbers? That is < 33k?"

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the patch is only local to PVE. I had no idea the same patch was going on in PVP where arguably it's much harder. I must have missed that part where there's a DPS test to post on the forums. Wait, there isn't one and everyone's opinion is ok to post? I guess we're all just going to have to trust the guy that claims to be fighting for the "Average Joe" and the condescends to them every chance he gets when they have a different opinion. Can I make a request video? I'd like to see you hold a funeral for your favorite class and then continue to play the game for a few more years. I'm really digging the Deltia's Gaming nostalgia you're trying to put out this patch and I figure if you follow in his footsteps that will definitely help you with outrage clicks.

"I can totally relate with @Moloch1514 and his struggle. He just went from being let into an above hm Craglorn trials guild down to a casual vet Craglorn guild. That really ruins his efforts and his morale!"

LMFAO ruins his efforts and morale. So you're saying he's skilled enough but the damage didn't come from him and instead of him putting in more effort, the same amount of every other player at that skill level, his morale will be so damaged that he won't even try. Well not sure how to make this sound less mean but ESO doesn't need more fair weather players. If you're at the summit of the mountain and you hit a patch of rocks that gives way and you tumble down a bit do you give up because you fell down a little bit or do you go right back to climbing to the top because you're right there? (I know your answer is give up and tell everyone that you can possibly shout to about how unfair it was but) Normal people keep going and make it to the top.

A picture is worth a thousand words:

Normal people are not morons. They achieve something and consider it done.
You are quick to dismiss @Moloch1514 's effort, but I know it's hard for a non top player magsorc lightning build to get to the DPS he did, on a non trial dummy).

If my 3rd PvE guild (hard core, we cleared vCR + 2 with 2 portals runners on guild day 1) did not disband because of ZOS constant hysteria patches, I'd ask him to join us.

A guy doing 43k DPS in Dragonbones solo on a non trial dummy with the worst single target spec?
Using no vMA weapon to boot, in the era of insanely high DPS obtained with vMA weapon + light attacks?

Fair weather player my ass!

"Normal people are not morons. They achieve something and consider it done."

Did you drop out of content? No? It's because you achieved it. If you get a patch that brings classes more into balance over the entire population and you drop out was it because you had actually achieved the that level or is it because skills were over performing?

"You are quick to dismiss @Moloch1514 's effort, but I know it's hard for a non top player magsorc lightning build to get to the DPS he did, on a non trial dummy)."

No. I'm saying this as someone that's been there before. You think I shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion because my dps topped at like 30k. I didn't mention it was during the Morrowind sustain horror days you mentioned, back when 30k DPS going into vMoL was pretty standard for most good progression guilds at the time. Did sustain suck? Yeah absolutely. Did I go cry about it on the forums? No, I worked on my rotation, my build and my sustain. I eventually got good enough and the only reason I stopped wasn't because I couldn't get better. I became a co-leader of a PVP guild and I was running Cyro/IC groups fairly frequently and PVP has different needs and requirements. I just kinda fell outta trials. No one that has achieved anything at a high level whether it's in real life or in a virtual life by having things get hard and giving up.

"If my 3rd PvE guild (hard core, we cleared vCR + 2 with 2 portals runners on guild day 1) did not disband because of ZOS constant hysteria patches, I'd ask him to join us."

A hardcore trials guild breaking up over nonexistent melodrama? Well if that didn't happen all the time I'd probably take it a little more seriously but I know how they work.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I have said it before;

Less people playing a type of content just means there will be less of that content produced.

All the people happy for the nerfs are just hurting themselves as the pool of available players for it gets shallower.

There is ample proof people are leaving the game, just look at the forums. In the past there was several people posting dps parses in the pts channel. This time I saw only one. Is that normal?

The combat team through nerfs and just making combat bland is apparently driving away players. The actual content is fun, but the combat team is just awful.

Not really. If the content becomes boring because everyone is doing too much damage (which is what was starting to happen) I could care less if there is more content or not at that point. If players want to leave they can. But these changes have been good for the game. And this is coming from someone who lost nearly half their damage in the last patch.

Have you cleared vSS hard mode yet? Where's your time run achievement?
Don't have it? Then let's stay simple: where's your hm vMOL achievement?

Because if you don't have them, how can you be bored at doing too much damage if you didn't do the content that requires it?

Also, last but not least, read the 7 pages of this thread and find where anyone complained about "too much damage".
The game gets boring because you have spend your life with static, stale heavy attacks.

Even if you did 200k in solo with 2 heavy attacks per rotation, the game would be way more boring than when I did 10k DPS never using heavy attacks and being able to cast, hack and dodge all the time.

Edit:
plus, other guys are annoyed because they achieve <results> and now their progress has been rolled back.

I know some in this thread will dismiss it as "fair weather players", but imagine yourself in the shoes of a guy who just got hired in an high level trial guild. He had to leave his old guild / stop running with them and all and; now he's possibly going to get kicked from the new guild because his class has been severely hit by the sustain nerfs.

Do you know what they have told me past Tuesday, when I asked if I could drop Liquid Lightning (required for Alkosh buff, now ultra-nerfed and massively expensive) and use Soul Splitting Trap? "No, because then we don't have a reason to bring a magsorc in the trial any more".

There you go, 5 (five) years worth of effort and then you get told this. They told it while joking, but one day a joke can suddenly become serious.

"Have you cleared vSS hard mode yet? Where's your time run achievement?
Don't have it? Then let's stay simple: where's your hm vMOL achievement?"

I thought this patch was affecting Average Joe the most according to you? Why is it every time the average joe seems to tell you the reality of the situation from their view point you suddenly launch into a personal tirade? We get it, you do high end trials, you are the top percent that the patch is designed for and you don't like that. Instead of being honest about it you mask it as fighting for the little guy until they have a different opinion. Then they don't know what they're talking about because they haven't cleared everything you have. That doesn't mean you are right, if anything we're on page 9 of this thread and if you read your answers from page 1 to now they show quite the opposite.

"Because if you don't have them, how can you be bored at doing too much damage if you didn't do the content that requires it?"

Because if you actually were fighting for the Average Joe you'd understand that most of them aren't chasing numbers and dps. They are playing to have fun and (I'm going to really need you to follow me here) most of them have other things to do in real life so their PVE content lasts a lot longer then yours. Imagine this scenario. A player has a life, a job, a family, etc. and he still plays ESO. He doesn't do trials because he doesn't have the time but he plays the game for the overland PVE content. He used to love it because he'd pay and it'd take say a full month to get the story and the side quests done. That's changed with the natural power creep of the game. Content that previously took a month now takes a 50-60% less time to do and is cleared in a week or two. That player is now bored with doing too much damage and feels like there is less value for the content he purchased. This player over time decides that his money and time is limited and better spent on other games.

Have you ever considered that all of the power creep and overpowered skills are what's making players leave and not reeling them back in? If the average joe is running through content at a faster rate and getting into content they weren't meant to be into yet because of crutches within the game isn't that worse for the game?

"The game gets boring because you have spend your life with static, stale heavy attacks."

You spent an entire post talking about how the best time in your life of ESO was doing 10k damage. Enough with the hyperbole, we get it you don't want to have to do anything in the game. Skills should be point and target, do more damage and you shouldn't ever have to sustain. Throwing in a heavy attack isn't spending your life heavy attacking. I'd also like to point out that for someone talking about boring static gameplay you have that screen shot where you think LA weaving shouldn't exist
https://i.ibb.co/CKJ1Q3W/2019-10-25-2.png
If you could maybe take a position and stick with it that'd be great because it seems like in your own words you don't want boring stale static gameplay but in the same breath you want to take out part of the dynamic part of that system. Which is it because if wanted to play WoW I'd just redownload WoW.

"I know some in this thread will dismiss it as "fair weather players", but imagine yourself in the shoes of a guy who just got hired in an high level trial guild. He had to leave his old guild / stop running with them and all and; now he's possibly going to get kicked from the new guild because his class has been severely hit by the sustain nerfs."

I've never met a raider that couldn't adapt or didn't have like 5 other characters they could roll with especially at that level. If you're going to use a strawman at least make it a good one.

"Do you know what they have told me past Tuesday, when I asked if I could drop Liquid Lightning (required for Alkosh buff, now ultra-nerfed and massively expensive) and use Soul Splitting Trap? "No, because then we don't have a reason to bring a magsorc in the trial any more""

I mean if you're at that competitive of a level that's pretty common to hear from guilds. This isn't a common occurrence for any guild outside of the top 1% of any endgame pve MMO.

"There you go, 5 (five) years worth of effort and then you get told this. They told it while joking, but one day a joke can suddenly become serious."

Convenient for you to bring up the joking part after you've made your points. Even if they weren't this is a pretty common ask from guilds. You think a min max high lvl end game guild that already tells you what cp/armor/skills to use also wouldn't want you to min max your race/class? Come on, do you really expect me to believe that?

Jhalin · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Well, I am talking about that nice practice that involves having Dragonhold running since a couple of days, while the patch notes about it are still not out as of today.

Using the example above, imagine if in real life people would be stopped by the police and car confiscated... while the law about it is still in draft and not public yet!

Also, drama = "that thing that happens when somebody I don't care about gets hit by some bad thing I don't really care about, I really don't understand why all the fuss".

Given it got pushed live. Given that there were huge, screaming notices saying, "patch dropped today," the whole idea that "it's in draft," is frankly ludicrous. It's also the problem with this entire analogy. You're arguing that the law shouldn't be enforceable if someone chooses to remain ignorant of it. That's not how any of this works.

Much like with the "laws in the real world" example, there was a lot of discussion about this patch. Hell, we did weekly coverage on the podcast and it broke me, Kyle, and Xynode. It was a grueling PTS cycle. The only way you'd be completely unaware of it is if you chose to ignore it until after the last moment. At which point, wait for it? They still didn't take the keys away from you. You're still able to run the same content as before, if you're good enough to clear it.

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Because, this is a, "won't someone think of the children," argument, redressed for forum consumption. It's the same reason when they decide they can't win on actual logic, and revert to an analogy, their first thought process leads them to age examples.

Too bad this is a game and it's paid exactly like other forms of entertrainment / services.

What do you get with your logic, defending a terrible movie or an awful restaurant? People just get sick and tired of it!

You hammer on the minority who are actually so nice to provide feedback instead of just leaving like most others.

Not sure if you've actually paid attention to any critique before. There's a huge subgenre of film criticism that runs around the idea of, "sure, this move is ****ing horrible, but it's also so damn good."

You think Drive Angry is a bad film? Sure, it is, but it's also ****ing brilliant.

What's genuinely hilarious about this is, your complaints cover a relatively minor element when it comes to evaluating the game as a whole. It's like watching Drive Angry and going, "how can you defend this movie, it's utter trash, the color temperature shifts are way too extreme!?"

You got that example very backwards there. There are absolutely bad movies that I love to watch. They don’t have flawless acting or perfectly presented plot lines, but they’re fun to watch. Scary Movie is a great film even if it’s full of lame tropes, logical vertigo, and awful acting.

A game can be unbalanced and a little buggy and still have a fun factor, but when it’s unbalanced, buggy, boring, and monotonous, no one calls that a worthwhile game. That’s the kind of game ESO is turning into. All this “standardization” does it remove the fun aspects that made the bad performance and hamster wheel bearable.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Well, I am talking about that nice practice that involves having Dragonhold running since a couple of days, while the patch notes about it are still not out as of today.

Using the example above, imagine if in real life people would be stopped by the police and car confiscated... while the law about it is still in draft and not public yet!

Also, drama = "that thing that happens when somebody I don't care about gets hit by some bad thing I don't really care about, I really don't understand why all the fuss".

Given it got pushed live. Given that there were huge, screaming notices saying, "patch dropped today," the whole idea that "it's in draft," is frankly ludicrous. It's also the problem with this entire analogy. You're arguing that the law shouldn't be enforceable if someone chooses to remain ignorant of it. That's not how any of this works.

Much like with the "laws in the real world" example, there was a lot of discussion about this patch. Hell, we did weekly coverage on the podcast and it broke me, Kyle, and Xynode. It was a grueling PTS cycle. The only way you'd be completely unaware of it is if you chose to ignore it until after the last moment. At which point, wait for it? They still didn't take the keys away from you. You're still able to run the same content as before, if you're good enough to clear it.

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Because, this is a, "won't someone think of the children," argument, redressed for forum consumption. It's the same reason when they decide they can't win on actual logic, and revert to an analogy, their first thought process leads them to age examples.

Too bad this is a game and it's paid exactly like other forms of entertrainment / services.

What do you get with your logic, defending a terrible movie or an awful restaurant? People just get sick and tired of it!

You hammer on the minority who are actually so nice to provide feedback instead of just leaving like most others.

Not sure if you've actually paid attention to any critique before. There's a huge subgenre of film criticism that runs around the idea of, "sure, this move is ****ing horrible, but it's also so damn good."

You think Drive Angry is a bad film? Sure, it is, but it's also ****ing brilliant.

What's genuinely hilarious about this is, your complaints cover a relatively minor element when it comes to evaluating the game as a whole. It's like watching Drive Angry and going, "how can you defend this movie, it's utter trash, the color temperature shifts are way too extreme!?"

You got that example very backwards there. There are absolutely bad movies that I love to watch. They don’t have flawless acting or perfectly presented plot lines, but they’re fun to watch. Scary Movie is a great film even if it’s full of lame tropes, logical vertigo, and awful acting.

A game can be unbalanced and a little buggy and still have a fun factor, but when it’s unbalanced, buggy, boring, and monotonous, no one calls that a worthwhile game. That’s the kind of game ESO is turning into. All this “standardization” does it remove the fun aspects that made the bad performance and hamster wheel bearable.

Exactly. You just described ESO in 2014 (buggy but really fun and engaging) and how it's turning into a sad copycat of BFA WoW, the worst expansion since WoD.

Vahrokh · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Given it got pushed live. Given that there were huge, screaming notices saying, "patch dropped today," the whole idea that "it's in draft," is frankly ludicrous. It's also the problem with this entire analogy. You're arguing that the law shouldn't be enforceable if someone chooses to remain ignorant of it. That's not how any of this works.

Much like with the "laws in the real world" example, there was a lot of discussion about this patch. Hell, we did weekly coverage on the podcast and it broke me, Kyle, and Xynode. It was a grueling PTS cycle. The only way you'd be completely unaware of it is if you chose to ignore it until after the last moment. At which point, wait for it? They still didn't take the keys away from you. You're still able to run the same content as before, if you're good enough to clear it.

The difference is that in real world a debated law gets vetted by opposition and if it proves to be imbalanced then it's adjusted afterwards.

In ESO you get slammed a nerf bomb. Many react. Minor adjustments are made, unless true revolt happens (like when they put cast time on shields) and then the new piece of garbage goes live. Still bugged, still awful and well knowing that 3 months later a new weird patch will get out, totally inverting values by 50% and making your newly acquired gear and skills pointless.

starkerealm wrote: »

Not sure if you've actually paid attention to any critique before. There's a huge subgenre of film criticism that runs around the idea of, "sure, this move is ****ing horrible, but it's also so damn good."

You think Drive Angry is a bad film? Sure, it is, but it's also ****ing brilliant.

What's genuinely hilarious about this is, your complaints cover a relatively minor element when it comes to evaluating the game as a whole. It's like watching Drive Angry and going, "how can you defend this movie, it's utter trash, the color temperature shifts are way too extreme!?"

Like another guy above, I love imperfect movies that are fun and engaging, with novel ideas and so on. I don't watch horrible movies, nor SJW garbage like the last Star Wars Disney movies or Batwoman and similar.
About the latter, you seem to be the on the side of 72% Rotten Tomatoes Critics, while I am on the 12% (twelve!) of "random guys score".

Furthermore, nerfing sustain is not "****ing brilliant". It's Morrowind 2 all over again. It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's not dynamic. That is, it's not the ESO I loved in 2014.

starkerealm wrote: »

Let's be blunt, for a moment. If someone is joining a guild because of their DPS and only their DPS, and that guild will kick them if their DPS drops. That guild is doing them a favor. Guilds are about their community. Numbers are great and all, but you're not there to push numbers, you're there to share time with friends. A raw mechanical progression through content may satisfy some of the most hardcore OCD raid humpers, but that's not a community. A half-decent guild will stick with you, and if you're hurt by a nerf, they'll help you to adapt and overcome. A guild worth being a member of will not abandon you because your numbers dipped.

This is not Average Joe stuff but I have been through it too. What happens is dictated by how nice the GM / officers are (very competitive guilds are not exactly "social" until the true top, where players are all so godly that they can afford being social).
It's true that they do help to adapt and overcome.

However here is not (just) a damage nerf or something. It's once again slapping players with less dynamic and fun yawnrotations. They can help me all day long but if the game is less fun, it's less fun, period.

That been said, if a class is just doomed by a patch, they can't help you. You are better to have a good alt or you cannot just drag everyone else down with your runt.

starkerealm wrote: »

Debatable, but also worth remembering that the average player doesn't run endgame content.

But they all want to have fun and feel they are progressing, which this thread is about.

Vahrokh · October 2019

@Rave the Histborn

You broke the quoting, so I skip the resulting weird wall of text.

Suffice to say that you keep trying to put my personal ESO "career" side by side with "Average Joe" to try smear and diminish my points.

No, my "career" is not Average Joes, I created this thread because they are annoyed AND I feel their stress because I've done that path too.

Not only that, both them and I want a fun, dynamic, quick paced ESO experience. The same experience we enjoyed for years, it's not something new.

You might have noticed I don't complain about Dragonbones, when another string of weird nerfs happened. Why? Because gameplay did not change.
We could "adapt and overcome" and slot another skill or 3.

But you can't adapt to crappy heavy attack oriented gameplay patches. You get less damage AND clunky, static "sitting duck" mechanics.

Seperatist · October 2019

Jones or Joes, but yeah looking at constant changes with elswhere - gamebreaker - dpshold zos seems to just don't know what they want, buffing stuff as hell then nerfing it to the ground and so on.

Rykoth · October 2019

"The Sky is Falling."

"Dead Game."

Bored now. Same old narrative. The game isn't dying. Stop getting so upset.

starkerealm · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

vamp_emily · October 2019

The sky is falling. Whoever removed knock back's from Scatter shot and Dizzy Swing should not be creating MMO games, they should be pealing potato's in prison. They totally removed the fun factor.

starkerealm · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

The difference is that in real world a debated law gets vetted by opposition and if it proves to be imbalanced then it's adjusted afterwards.

If you think you have any real input on the laws that govern you, that is tragically naive.

Vahrokh wrote: »

In ESO you get slammed a nerf bomb.

Where?

There was no nerf.

I mean, I get that's how you keep looking at it.

That's what you're crying about.

But, the damage set you're complaining about was just buffed. It's still up from where it was.

Now, I understand, you started getting your feet wet in content you weren't ready for. You jumped into vet, and crowed about how awesome you were, without actually taking the time to improve. And, you know what? Fine, you can still go back and run content on normal if it's really impossible for you to improve further.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Many react. Minor adjustments are made, unless true revolt happens (like when they put cast time on shields) and then the new piece of garbage goes live.

If you think this was on the scale of shield cast times, you're sadly mistaken. You listened to Alcast, and started crying because he told you to. Thing is, it doesn't matter. Not really. It doesn't matter for the people you claim to speak for, who are quite able to voice their opinion if they feel strongly enough on the subject.

Thing is, most people, and I do mean, most people, don't care. It's a handful of people crying about a change that is a partial reversal of a previous adjustment.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Still bugged...

Balance changes aren't bugs.

Vahrokh wrote: »

...still awful and well knowing that 3 months later a new weird patch will get out, totally inverting values by 50% and making your newly acquired gear and skills pointless.

Well, if we're talking about the numbers going down, then an inversion would be numbers going up. But, you think numbers going up is a bad thing now?

Is this like that time you were arguing that this meant casuals wouldn't be able to do vSS HM?

Vahrokh wrote: »

Furthermore, nerfing sustain is not "****ing brilliant". It's Morrowind 2 all over again. It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's not dynamic. That is, it's not the ESO I loved in 2014.

Nice of you to bring that up, because no one else was talking about it.

And you know the best part? For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the sustain changes in Morrowind? The community survived.

People kept playing.

The world didn't end.

For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over Morrowind? It was a brilliant change. Or, at least, a necessary one.

See, I was running endgame content back then. The problem with pre-Morrowind sustain was, you could do sustained bursts. It was stupid. It grossly inflated combat damage. It meant future content would be pigeonholed into a smaller and smaller subset of builds. People would lose options moving forward as their choices diminished down to a true BiS situation.

So, they deep sixed the sustain that made that possible. Said, "you need to choose, burst or sustain."

Numbers have been coming up since then, but the Morrowind era changes were necessary for the long term health of the game.

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Let's be blunt, for a moment. If someone is joining a guild because of their DPS and only their DPS, and that guild will kick them if their DPS drops. That guild is doing them a favor. Guilds are about their community. Numbers are great and all, but you're not there to push numbers, you're there to share time with friends. A raw mechanical progression through content may satisfy some of the most hardcore OCD raid humpers, but that's not a community. A half-decent guild will stick with you, and if you're hurt by a nerf, they'll help you to adapt and overcome. A guild worth being a member of will not abandon you because your numbers dipped.

This is not Average Joe stuff but I have been through it too. What happens is dictated by how nice the GM / officers are (very competitive guilds are not exactly "social" until the true top, where players are all so godly that they can afford being social).
It's true that they do help to adapt and overcome.

Yeah, this kind of toxic behavior shouldn't be catered to. If you've got a guild that's going to kick people because DPS goes down in a balance change? **** 'em. The people they remove will be better off without them, and we're not talking about people who were ever in contention for true competitive PvE. They're petty little despots, taking out their own frustrations on others.

Don't defend them.

And for the record, I've never been in that position. Only raid guild that removed me did so because of a post I made about a catastrophically bad run they attempted.

Vahrokh wrote: »

However here is not (just) a damage nerf or something.

It's literally about a damage nerf.

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's once again slapping players with less dynamic and fun yawnrotations. They can help me all day long but if the game is less fun, it's less fun, period.

So the rotation where everyone was using the same AoEs all the time, and refreshing them, while getting coffee to stave off the boredom of watching enemies slowly dissolve into goo is more interesting than a direct damage build that requires you to prioritize what you're doing.

Right.

Vahrokh wrote: »

That been said, if a class is just doomed by a patch, they can't help you. You are better to have a good alt or you cannot just drag everyone else down with your runt.

Hey, this one I have experienced. I ran stamblades back when they took a hit to the kneecaps. So, you know what I did? Took my stamsorc, took my stamden, took my magplar. Took other builds.

If you're playing at a level where your class really isn't viable, in your hands, you can switch to other classes. I should know, I have.

Getting a new character endgame relevant doesn't really take that much time.

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Debatable, but also worth remembering that the average player doesn't run endgame content.

But they all want to have fun and feel they are progressing, which this thread is about.

No, your posts in this thread is about endgame players while screaming, "think of the children," as frequently as possible.

The average player running overland content is making progress. They're doing quests, they're leveling up (because, statistically, they haven't hit 50 yet.) They're mostly unaffected by this.

This isn't about those players. They're still having fun. They're still running content. And, because they're still having fun and progressing, they're not posting here.

BlueRaven · October 2019

FierceSam wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

.

There is ample proof people are leaving the game, just look at the forums. ?

And yet they have had to implement a one out one in queue system for the PC EU server....

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498922/login-queues-turned-on-for-pc-mac-servers-oct-24

Queues because Zos messed up the server or the code.... Or both.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

@Rave the Histborn

You broke the quoting, so I skip the resulting weird wall of text.

Suffice to say that you keep trying to put my personal ESO "career" side by side with "Average Joe" to try smear and diminish my points.

No, my "career" is not Average Joes, I created this thread because they are annoyed AND I feel their stress because I've done that path too.

Not only that, both them and I want a fun, dynamic, quick paced ESO experience. The same experience we enjoyed for years, it's not something new.

You might have noticed I don't complain about Dragonbones, when another string of weird nerfs happened. Why? Because gameplay did not change.
We could "adapt and overcome" and slot another skill or 3.

But you can't adapt to crappy heavy attack oriented gameplay patches. You get less damage AND clunky, static "sitting duck" mechanics.

The only person smearing and diminishing you is you. I'm just using your quotes and your words, I'm not doing anything more than that and I'm not the only person that's mentioned it.

Kelces: Yet again, this condescending stance won't advance your goal for a better experience at all

You keep saying you "created this for the Average joes" but you didn't. Look if you did it wouldn't be another doom and gloom hysteria patch. They come with every. single. patch. We get it, things are different. If it was really meant to help people and empathize with stress you'd be here telling them how it's not that bad, change a set and some skills and put a day into your new rotation and you're golden. wh

I think it's obvious we've both been playing for a long time so my question to you is: In the grand scheme of patches how bad is this patch really? Is it worse then Morrowind? Didn't players make it through Morrowind? Do you think these players are incapable of doing that same thing here?

I think everyone wants that but at the same time I want it within reason. You should still have to have basic game knowledge and at this point that includes rotating and sustaining.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Rykoth wrote: »

"The Sky is Falling."

"Dead Game."

Bored now. Same old narrative. The game isn't dying. Stop getting so upset.

Thank you for stopping by and not even reading the OP.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

@Rave the Histborn

You broke the quoting, so I skip the resulting weird wall of text.

Suffice to say that you keep trying to put my personal ESO "career" side by side with "Average Joe" to try smear and diminish my points.

No, my "career" is not Average Joes, I created this thread because they are annoyed AND I feel their stress because I've done that path too.

Not only that, both them and I want a fun, dynamic, quick paced ESO experience. The same experience we enjoyed for years, it's not something new.

You might have noticed I don't complain about Dragonbones, when another string of weird nerfs happened. Why? Because gameplay did not change.
We could "adapt and overcome" and slot another skill or 3.

But you can't adapt to crappy heavy attack oriented gameplay patches. You get less damage AND clunky, static "sitting duck" mechanics.

The only person smearing and diminishing you is you. I'm just using your quotes and your words, I'm not doing anything more than that and I'm not the only person that's mentioned it.

Kelces: Yet again, this condescending stance won't advance your goal for a better experience at all

You keep saying you "created this for the Average joes" but you didn't. Look if you did it wouldn't be another doom and gloom hysteria patch. They come with every. single. patch. We get it, things are different. If it was really meant to help people and empathize with stress you'd be here telling them how it's not that bad, change a set and some skills and put a day into your new rotation and you're golden. wh

I think it's obvious we've both been playing for a long time so my question to you is: In the grand scheme of patches how bad is this patch really? Is it worse then Morrowind? Didn't players make it through Morrowind? Do you think these players are incapable of doing that same thing here?

I think everyone wants that but at the same time I want it within reason. You should still have to have basic game knowledge and at this point that includes rotating and sustaining.

Did I complain at the last nerfs? Or the ones before them? No.

I raid since 2001, maybe - just maybe - I have seen how MMOs go. They are dynamic environment where constant rebalance is done.

Now, enter ESO 2019 or WoW BFA: both have pushed non class specific gameplay. Both have become boring (WoW more than ESO, they actively removed 40% of the skills we had at MoP). Both are less fun, because instead of nerfing (or in addition to nerfing) they made the gameplay boring.

And here is where @starkerealm is wrong: he writes that:

So the rotation where everyone was using the same AoEs all the time, and refreshing them, while getting coffee to stave off the boredom of watching enemies slowly dissolve into goo is more interesting than a direct damage build that requires you to prioritize what you're doing

like what he have now is better than that. No, it's not. Because now I have to do the very SAME rotation (just switching a couple of skills) PLUS additional "getting coffee to stave off the boredom" heavy attacks.

Boring ^2

I know, English is my 4th language so I probably write some concepts wrong, but I can't believe people read the opposite of the meaning I wanted to show.

I want *LESS* heavy attacks and boring rotations, not more.

Separated from me and from that, there are the other guys ("Average Joes") who experience a different effect: whereas I get bored, they get less damage on top of that.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

In the grand scheme of patches how bad is this patch really? Is it worse then Morrowind? Didn't players make it through Morrowind?

In the grand scheme, this is a step in the wrong direction. It's not "worse" than Morrowind, it's a sequel of it. And people do get through everything, does not mean this is good, especially when they are not asked to "go through" WW2 famine, but through an AAA subscription game.

Yormula · October 2019

MasterSpatula wrote: »

...Have you guys done any dragons in the Dragonhold updated now?...

Done them, and would disagree. Northern dragons have physical attacks on top of all the special stuff that are hard to cope with even on a vMA-capable build. Need a healer paying attention, or gotta be facing them in tank spec.

New ones don't. Sure, the special stuff is a bit nastier, and you could use some dps for those 15 mln + adds not to take forever, but 3-4 players with mediocre competence can do it in a stride. And I find it hard to believe you won't find a few more guys around during peak hours even when the next chapter drops.

As for the topic: imo, there's a big issue with medium-level players being cut from vet trial/harder DLC dungeons, etc. I.e., the gap between solid medium and hardcore raider is widening. Which stems not from changes to sustain/dps/identity by itself, but rather from the ultimate role of dps in encounter design: MOAR DAKKA = easymode mechanic skip. You can do almost any content with, say, 35k dps, but it will be miles and miles harder.

I don't see "average joes" (described as casual players) suffering though. As already mentioned, pretty much any build without pots can pull 20k+. That already covers Craglorn, non-DLC vet 4-mans, vMA and any and all overland content.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

@Rave the Histborn

You broke the quoting, so I skip the resulting weird wall of text.

Suffice to say that you keep trying to put my personal ESO "career" side by side with "Average Joe" to try smear and diminish my points.

No, my "career" is not Average Joes, I created this thread because they are annoyed AND I feel their stress because I've done that path too.

Not only that, both them and I want a fun, dynamic, quick paced ESO experience. The same experience we enjoyed for years, it's not something new.

You might have noticed I don't complain about Dragonbones, when another string of weird nerfs happened. Why? Because gameplay did not change.
We could "adapt and overcome" and slot another skill or 3.

But you can't adapt to crappy heavy attack oriented gameplay patches. You get less damage AND clunky, static "sitting duck" mechanics.

The only person smearing and diminishing you is you. I'm just using your quotes and your words, I'm not doing anything more than that and I'm not the only person that's mentioned it.

Kelces: Yet again, this condescending stance won't advance your goal for a better experience at all

You keep saying you "created this for the Average joes" but you didn't. Look if you did it wouldn't be another doom and gloom hysteria patch. They come with every. single. patch. We get it, things are different. If it was really meant to help people and empathize with stress you'd be here telling them how it's not that bad, change a set and some skills and put a day into your new rotation and you're golden. wh

I think it's obvious we've both been playing for a long time so my question to you is: In the grand scheme of patches how bad is this patch really? Is it worse then Morrowind? Didn't players make it through Morrowind? Do you think these players are incapable of doing that same thing here?

I think everyone wants that but at the same time I want it within reason. You should still have to have basic game knowledge and at this point that includes rotating and sustaining.

Did I complain at the last nerfs? Or the ones before them? No.

I raid since 2001, maybe - just maybe - I have seen how MMOs go. They are dynamic environment where constant rebalance is done.

Now, enter ESO 2019 or WoW BFA: both have pushed non class specific gameplay. Both have become boring (WoW more than ESO, they actively removed 40% of the skills we had at MoP). Both are less fun, because instead of nerfing (or in addition to nerfing) they made the gameplay boring.

And here is where @starkerealm is wrong: he writes that:

So the rotation where everyone was using the same AoEs all the time, and refreshing them, while getting coffee to stave off the boredom of watching enemies slowly dissolve into goo is more interesting than a direct damage build that requires you to prioritize what you're doing

like what he have now is better than that. No, it's not. Because now I have to do the very SAME rotation (just switching a couple of skills) PLUS additional "getting coffee to stave off the boredom" heavy attacks.

Boring ^2

I know, English is my 4th language so I probably write some concepts wrong, but I can't believe people read the opposite of the meaning I wanted to show.

I want *LESS* heavy attacks and boring rotations, not more.

Separated from me and from that, there are the other guys ("Average Joes") who experience a different effect: whereas I get bored, they get less damage on top of that.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

In the grand scheme of patches how bad is this patch really? Is it worse then Morrowind? Didn't players make it through Morrowind?

In the grand scheme, this is a step in the wrong direction. It's not "worse" than Morrowind, it's a sequel of it. And people do get through everything, does not mean this is good, especially when they are not asked to "go through" WW2 famine, but through an AAA subscription game.

Maybe you should have complained?

I've raided since 2005 over 5 MMOs I've seen the ebbs and flows. You talk about WoWs combat being boring but state it didn't get boring until BFA. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. WoWs combat has been stale since WotLK, you just had tons of masks over it. The updates are spaced out much further than ESOs so it's a much slower burn but in the end the product is the same. It's the same product you're asking ESO to turn into: unchecked power creep, mindless rotations that involve applying tons of dots sitting back and falling asleep, armors sets designed so once you hit a certain point there are no alternatives. It's already been done and class identity won't be killed by reducing these, it will be killed by allowing it to continue. You talk about boring classes but as content has increased class identity has been sacrificed in the name of what you're asking for. High damage builds with no need to sustain or rotate. The only way you can achieve this is by killing the individuality of the classes. What you're asking for is further homogenization.

It seems odd that you'd be saying builds are boring when you're asking for the builds to become even more boring. Especially if you're trying to compare the Morrowind patch to the Dragonhold patch. They aren't on a comparitive level with the sustain and dps changes.

I agree, no one asks to go through WW2 but at the same time you couldnt ask it to stop. Here's the thing with that analogy: good times make weak men and you're seeing the result. Your end game pve scene is being populated with people that dont have the same skill or drive you did because they had thing handed to them. Once the bad times end you get strong men. Men that are accustomed change and don't see things like this as a personal attack and the end of their fragile worlds. You want those people for endgame content.

Jhalin · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @/Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

No, I definitely referred to you. You can’t defend the state ESO is in. It isn’t about the numbers, it’s about now patch after patch we get worse performance and far less interesting gameplay.

Raideen · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @/Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

No, I definitely referred to you. You can’t defend the state ESO is in. It isn’t about the numbers, it’s about now patch after patch we get worse performance and far less interesting gameplay.

Ohh but he does defend them (he admits to knowing the devs first hand....pure bias). But I am enjoying them getting ratio'd.

aetherial_heavenn · October 2019

Gnome_Saiyan wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Of course, I am meant to somehow screen capture my guilds chats for hours a day every day, so that I can prove a random internet guy that what my guildies have written is true

But you said you "investigated" it. You hinged this entire thread on the weighty, sexy word "investigated." Doesn't investigation involve gathering evidence? Most of your investigation consisted of your eyewitness account. Fine. Great. What were the names of the (your words) "couple of guys?" What were their exact words? What were the circumstances of their dissatisfaction? These are basic investigative questions.

did some pugs. DPS averaged 7k. I did 3 times that on fully specced healer. Last week pugs averaged 15k. The 50% dot reduction plus sustain changes seem to account for this. Also had lots of sustain comments in my social guild.

It's all very well dismissing this as 'anecdotal evidence' but doing a double blind control tested statistically valid series of experiments is a bit out of the question in an MMO while playing as an ordinary player. As those who do the maths have given some serious numerical (see PTS feedback) and control tested evidence (see streams) on the affect of DoT changes plus sustain changes, combined with the previous changes to aoe's and say it adds up to a dps loss of about 30% in such controlled experiments, I believe OP's observation and investigating wih guildies to be true on the balance of probabilities.

starkerealm · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @/Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

No, I definitely referred to you. You can’t defend the state ESO is in. It isn’t about the numbers, it’s about now patch after patch we get worse performance and far less interesting gameplay.

Oh, I can defend the current state of the game. Performance has increased dramatically with this patch (with a few anomalies.) The current content is far more mechanically interesting than even a year ago. Scalebreaker and Southern Elseweyr is among the most visually engaging content in the game. The last patch may have made DoTs too potent, and diminished overall variety in game, but this patch has brought that back under control. Stamsorcs finally have some flavor. The last event seemed to turn a corner, moving way from mindless grinding to something a bit more coherant.

The game's in a better state now than it was 60 days ago. There've been some serious improvements, and there's more on the way.

Beyond that? I mean, the endgame raiding community is losing it's mind and setting fire to everything it can find, so that's business as usual and mildly entertaining.

I know it doesn't fit with the whole, "ESO will die, unless they cater to my peculiar whims," narrative that's been going around, but the game's in a very good state right now.

Jhalin · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @/Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

No, I definitely referred to you. You can’t defend the state ESO is in. It isn’t about the numbers, it’s about now patch after patch we get worse performance and far less interesting gameplay.

Oh, I can defend the current state of the game. Performance has increased dramatically with this patch (with a few anomalies.) The current content is far more mechanically interesting than even a year ago. Scalebreaker and Southern Elseweyr is among the most visually engaging content in the game. The last patch may have made DoTs too potent, and diminished overall variety in game, but this patch has brought that back under control. Stamsorcs finally have some flavor. The last event seemed to turn a corner, moving way from mindless grinding to something a bit more coherant.

The game's in a better state now than it was 60 days ago. There've been some serious improvements, and there's more on the way.

Beyond that? I mean, the endgame raiding community is losing it's mind and setting fire to everything it can find, so that's business as usual and mildly entertaining.

I know it doesn't fit with the whole, "ESO will die, unless they cater to my peculiar whims," narrative that's been going around, but the game's in a very good state right now.

The EU server imploding is an anomaly in what world? Now NA server is starting to join it in imploding. Everyone in that sparkly new zone is getting out of the blue lag spikes.

The content itself is fine, I enjoyed the story well enough, but the game runs like a dumpster fire and sours the whole experience.

If you can seriously claim that performance is better with this patch, you’re deluding yourself.

It’s no more stable that it was before, and now it’s way less fun.

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @/Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

No, I definitely referred to you. You can’t defend the state ESO is in. It isn’t about the numbers, it’s about now patch after patch we get worse performance and far less interesting gameplay.

Oh, I can defend the current state of the game. Performance has increased dramatically with this patch (with a few anomalies.) The current content is far more mechanically interesting than even a year ago. Scalebreaker and Southern Elseweyr is among the most visually engaging content in the game. The last patch may have made DoTs too potent, and diminished overall variety in game, but this patch has brought that back under control. Stamsorcs finally have some flavor. The last event seemed to turn a corner, moving way from mindless grinding to something a bit more coherant.

The game's in a better state now than it was 60 days ago. There've been some serious improvements, and there's more on the way.

Beyond that? I mean, the endgame raiding community is losing it's mind and setting fire to everything it can find, so that's business as usual and mildly entertaining.

I know it doesn't fit with the whole, "ESO will die, unless they cater to my peculiar whims," narrative that's been going around, but the game's in a very good state right now.

The EU server imploding is an anomaly in what world? Now NA server is starting to join it in imploding. Everyone in that sparkly new zone is getting out of the blue lag spikes.

The content itself is fine, I enjoyed the story well enough, but the game runs like a dumpster fire and sours the whole experience.

If you can seriously claim that performance is better with this patch, you’re deluding yourself.

It’s no more stable that it was before, and now it’s way less fun.

If someone can't see how this last year is probably the worst ESO has been since launch. Its by choice, and you're not going to reach them through that very thick lens of rose tinted glasses they're wearing.

starkerealm · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @/Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

No, I definitely referred to you. You can’t defend the state ESO is in. It isn’t about the numbers, it’s about now patch after patch we get worse performance and far less interesting gameplay.

Oh, I can defend the current state of the game. Performance has increased dramatically with this patch (with a few anomalies.) The current content is far more mechanically interesting than even a year ago. Scalebreaker and Southern Elseweyr is among the most visually engaging content in the game. The last patch may have made DoTs too potent, and diminished overall variety in game, but this patch has brought that back under control. Stamsorcs finally have some flavor. The last event seemed to turn a corner, moving way from mindless grinding to something a bit more coherant.

The game's in a better state now than it was 60 days ago. There've been some serious improvements, and there's more on the way.

Beyond that? I mean, the endgame raiding community is losing it's mind and setting fire to everything it can find, so that's business as usual and mildly entertaining.

I know it doesn't fit with the whole, "ESO will die, unless they cater to my peculiar whims," narrative that's been going around, but the game's in a very good state right now.

The EU server imploding is an anomaly in what world? Now NA server is starting to join it in imploding. Everyone in that sparkly new zone is getting out of the blue lag spikes.

The content itself is fine, I enjoyed the story well enough, but the game runs like a dumpster fire and sours the whole experience.

If you can seriously claim that performance is better with this patch, you’re deluding yourself.

It’s no more stable that it was before, and now it’s way less fun.

Yeah, because there's never been login issues before today.

starkerealm · October 2019

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @/Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

No, I definitely referred to you. You can’t defend the state ESO is in. It isn’t about the numbers, it’s about now patch after patch we get worse performance and far less interesting gameplay.

Oh, I can defend the current state of the game. Performance has increased dramatically with this patch (with a few anomalies.) The current content is far more mechanically interesting than even a year ago. Scalebreaker and Southern Elseweyr is among the most visually engaging content in the game. The last patch may have made DoTs too potent, and diminished overall variety in game, but this patch has brought that back under control. Stamsorcs finally have some flavor. The last event seemed to turn a corner, moving way from mindless grinding to something a bit more coherant.

The game's in a better state now than it was 60 days ago. There've been some serious improvements, and there's more on the way.

Beyond that? I mean, the endgame raiding community is losing it's mind and setting fire to everything it can find, so that's business as usual and mildly entertaining.

I know it doesn't fit with the whole, "ESO will die, unless they cater to my peculiar whims," narrative that's been going around, but the game's in a very good state right now.

The EU server imploding is an anomaly in what world? Now NA server is starting to join it in imploding. Everyone in that sparkly new zone is getting out of the blue lag spikes.

The content itself is fine, I enjoyed the story well enough, but the game runs like a dumpster fire and sours the whole experience.

If you can seriously claim that performance is better with this patch, you’re deluding yourself.

It’s no more stable that it was before, and now it’s way less fun.

If someone can't see how this last year is probably the worst ESO has been since launch. Its by choice, and you're not going to reach them through that very thick lens of rose tinted glasses they're wearing.

If someone thinks this is the worst year since launch, they weren't around for 2014 or 2015.

Yormula · October 2019

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

...did some pugs. DPS averaged 7k...

Seeing how heavy attacking with role-proper purple sets does more (and I'm not even talking about IA+Elegant+vMA staff), that's not even casual level of gameplay. We already have tons of "faceroll with anything" content (overland), not sure the mentioned category should be taken into account when balancing with respect to vet and other similar content.

Jhalin · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

You got that example very backwards there.

I think you misunderstand, @/Vahrokh has it backwards, and doesn't really understand how to use an analogy.

No, I definitely referred to you. You can’t defend the state ESO is in. It isn’t about the numbers, it’s about now patch after patch we get worse performance and far less interesting gameplay.

Oh, I can defend the current state of the game. Performance has increased dramatically with this patch (with a few anomalies.) The current content is far more mechanically interesting than even a year ago. Scalebreaker and Southern Elseweyr is among the most visually engaging content in the game. The last patch may have made DoTs too potent, and diminished overall variety in game, but this patch has brought that back under control. Stamsorcs finally have some flavor. The last event seemed to turn a corner, moving way from mindless grinding to something a bit more coherant.

The game's in a better state now than it was 60 days ago. There've been some serious improvements, and there's more on the way.

Beyond that? I mean, the endgame raiding community is losing it's mind and setting fire to everything it can find, so that's business as usual and mildly entertaining.

I know it doesn't fit with the whole, "ESO will die, unless they cater to my peculiar whims," narrative that's been going around, but the game's in a very good state right now.

The EU server imploding is an anomaly in what world? Now NA server is starting to join it in imploding. Everyone in that sparkly new zone is getting out of the blue lag spikes.

The content itself is fine, I enjoyed the story well enough, but the game runs like a dumpster fire and sours the whole experience.

If you can seriously claim that performance is better with this patch, you’re deluding yourself.

It’s no more stable that it was before, and now it’s way less fun.

Yeah, because there's never been login issues before today.

Meanwhile in that quoted statement:

starkerealm wrote: »

Oh, I can defend the current state of the game. Performance has increased dramatically with this patch (with a few anomalies.)
...

The game's in a better state now than it was 60 days ago. There've been some serious improvements, and there's more on the way.

And yet then you admit that the age-old issues haven't been fixed at all.

It's obvious to anyone that still plays that this game is in a terrible state and still on a decline in performance. I played in 2015, it was fun, and yeah it was buggy (I got stuck in trees and knee high walls on occasion), but it didn't crash my game at random. I didn't suddenly drop to 5fps with no one around. I didn't get random load screens in zones that had MAYBE 50 people in that entire shard. I felt like my characters played differently when their classes were different.

Tonight it took 10 minutes to get past character select. Tonight my game crashed when I tried to load into the next Maelstrom stage, a SOLO instance. Tonight it took my group mates 5 minutes in load screens to port into a trial.

What part of that says "dramatically increased performance" to you?

Raideen · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

The game's in a better state now than it was 60 days ago. There've been some serious improvements, and there's more on the way.

LOL, Ohh dear god, you are killing me.....60 days ago the game was in an infinitely better state than today.