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'Maelstrom' Arena for Healers and Tanks
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We have to perform all roles in vMA. Believe me, we are healing ourselves and there is no one else to hold the agro of the bosses.
I do not do vMA in my raid spec. I change it up since it is not the same type of content. The same should be expected for healers and tanks that they would change it up to clear vMA.
To the specific request OP is making, healing, providing buffs and resources, and mitigating damage is not a challenge. That is very easy. Heck, Craglorn trials are extremely easy to heal and heal well. Keeping taunt up and interrupting from time to time is easy as well in a vacuum of not having to be concerned about anything else.
So OP has not suggested what would make these arenas a challenge. And no, I am not saying healing and tanking are easy, but what OP describes is easy.
Edit: to be frank, DPS is easy as well. What makes vMA a challenge is that we must deal with various threads from all directions constantly. We must be offensive and defensive at the same time. Each arena has different threats, different mechanics that offer the various challenges that make it much more than doing a rotation as OP has left out of their suggestion.Edited by idk on October 21, 2019 10:08PM3 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭soochie52_ESO wrote: »I would like to see ZOS make a couple Maelstrom-type arenas that are designed to test the skills of and give bragging rights to healers and tanks. The Healer arena can involve multiple NPC's that the player has to keep buffed, healed, give resources to, shield, mitigate damage etc - all the things awesome healers do. The tank arena can involve the player moving mobs, keeping up taunt and interrupting etc to protect NPC's and of course taking and avoiding huge damaging attacks.
Just think of how fun it would be for healers and tanks to have the same bragging rights and go thru the same challenges the DPS get to - it would be so much fun!
I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
I'd argue it's not a dps-race, in fact for certain fights burning things too fast can be risky, because of stacking mechanics, like the final boss in stage 5. You need to kill things, sure, but unless you're going for score, you can absolutely take your sweet time. As for design, it's still one of the best pieces of content in ESO, and although somewhat outdated for the current meta and veteran end-gamers, it's still a great place to test builds.5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank with low damage and see how far you get. That will pretty much put an end to this particular debate.Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 10:02PM1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time else you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 10:10PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭soochie52_ESO wrote: »I would like to see ZOS make a couple Maelstrom-type arenas that are designed to test the skills of and give bragging rights to healers and tanks. The Healer arena can involve multiple NPC's that the player has to keep buffed, healed, give resources to, shield, mitigate damage etc - all the things awesome healers do. The tank arena can involve the player moving mobs, keeping up taunt and interrupting etc to protect NPC's and of course taking and avoiding huge damaging attacks.
Just think of how fun it would be for healers and tanks to have the same bragging rights and go thru the same challenges the DPS get to - it would be so much fun!
But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS.
It does. There is not one there to tank and interrupt for us for us so we must manage the agro and interupts. There is no one there to heal for us so we must manage the healer. I have cleared it on my trial healer which some tweaks of course. Went well.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭soochie52_ESO wrote: »I would like to see ZOS make a couple Maelstrom-type arenas that are designed to test the skills of and give bragging rights to healers and tanks. The Healer arena can involve multiple NPC's that the player has to keep buffed, healed, give resources to, shield, mitigate damage etc - all the things awesome healers do. The tank arena can involve the player moving mobs, keeping up taunt and interrupting etc to protect NPC's and of course taking and avoiding huge damaging attacks.
Just think of how fun it would be for healers and tanks to have the same bragging rights and go thru the same challenges the DPS get to - it would be so much fun!
But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS.
It does. There is not one there to tank and interrupt for us for us so we must manage the agro and interupts. There is no one there to heal for us so we must manage the healer. I have cleared it on my trial healer which some tweaks of course. Went well.
No it doesn't.
Any character who goes into VMA expecting to use healing or defensive strategies to beat it is going to disappointed. VMA requires a good offense and will shun any character build that does not have one.Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 10:15PM0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.
https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQ
https://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran. And anything that is not group content will be harder for a healer or tank, because, like I said, you can't heal stuff to death.Edited by LadyNalcarya on October 21, 2019 10:22PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU4 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
If you want to tell people they can beat VMA as a defensive tank with low damage then be my guest. Just don't expect me to agree with you or participate in the fraud. I prefer to give more more accurate information.
Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 10:25PM1 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time else you die.
A dps race involves a mechanic that will one-shot wipe you unless you kill the target within a certain time frame, or a mechanic/phase in a fight that will eventually wipe you, unless you do enough damage to move past it; if that's not a parameter, then it's not a dps race. You can do vMA with a heavy armour 1 bar-rotation build--if you know what you're doing, you can even do it with a broom and bucket. No, you can't do it with a fully defensive character (althouth with proc sets and enough patience, who knows
), but that still doesn't make it a dps race.
2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time else you die.
A dps race involves a mechanic that will one-shot wipe you unless you kill the target within a certain time frame, or a mechanic/phase in a fight that will eventually wipe you, ...
That is exactly right.
And that is exactly what you will encounter in VMA.Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 10:28PM0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
I didn't compare the difficulty, I compared the concept of using offensive skills. Please re-read my first post:
And why did you ignore my question about dps races?LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time else you die.
A dps race involves a mechanic that will one-shot wipe you unless you kill the target within a certain time frame, or a mechanic/phase in a fight that will eventually wipe you, ...
That is exactly right.
And that is exactly what you will encounter in VMA.
No, it's really not
With mitigation, you can just stand there and tank all the things, now if you can't interrupt a troll every now and then, that's another issue... 3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
I didn't compare the difficulty, I compared the concept of using offensive skills. Please re-read my first post:
And why did you ignore my question about dps races?LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
I didn't ignore it. I said it was ridiculous.
Having some offensive capabilities is not the same as requiring a certain amount of it otherwise you die. You cannot "outlast" enemies in VMA through attrition or by effectively defending yourself. It requires an offensive strategy.Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 10:34PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time else you die.
A dps race involves a mechanic that will one-shot wipe you unless you kill the target within a certain time frame, or a mechanic/phase in a fight that will eventually wipe you, ...
That is exactly right.
And that is exactly what you will encounter in VMA.
No, it's really not With mitigation, you can just stand there and tank all the things, now if you can't interrupt a troll every now and then, that's another issue...
I only hope no one actually takes this comment seriously and attempts to defeat VMA by just standing there and tanking everything. Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you.Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 10:37PM0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
I didn't compare the difficulty, I compared the concept of using offensive skills. Please re-read my first post:
And why did you ignore my question about dps races?LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
I didn't ignore it. I said it was ridiculous.
Having some offensive capabilities is not the same as requiring a certain amount of it otherwise you die. You cannot "outlast" enemies in VMA through attrition or by effectively defending yourself. It requires an offensive strategy.
It's essentially the same thing when this "required amount" is so small. Especially when you have access to dps boost and reflective shield.
There's no enemy in game that you can "outlast", and Maelstrom is no different. You can take your time killing mobs, but in the end you'll have to kill them anyway.
Actually, treating vMA as a dps race might cause more harm than good: I've heard many horror stories about people getting stuck on the giant boss because they tried to burn her down asap, causing her minions to swarm them to death.
I'm not saying that tank setup is optimal for vMA (though ww hp regen build used to be popular for a reason) but it's not really comparable to what people usually mean when they talk about dps races. And if we're talking about semantics, then even a simple harvester is a dps race.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sure sounds fun, heal things to death or puncture things to death lol
I agree that healing things to death or puncturing things to death would be lame.
But having the option to where you could actually employ healing or defensive strategies to outlast your opponents would go a long way to making VMA more individual build-friendly. Because as it is now - the DPS race mechanics make it to where you need a healthy offense and aggressive play style to progress, and that leaves out a lot of different character builds and combat styles that are otherwise very effective.
The idea on this thread that every tank on the game is walking around with 15k dps just isn't based in reality.Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 10:57PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
I didn't compare the difficulty, I compared the concept of using offensive skills. Please re-read my first post:
And why did you ignore my question about dps races?LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
I didn't ignore it. I said it was ridiculous.
Having some offensive capabilities is not the same as requiring a certain amount of it otherwise you die. You cannot "outlast" enemies in VMA through attrition or by effectively defending yourself. It requires an offensive strategy.
It's essentially the same thing when this "required amount" is so small. Especially when you have access to dps boost and reflective shield.
There's no enemy in game that you can "outlast", and Maelstrom is no different. You can take your time killing mobs, but in the end you'll have to kill them anyway.
Actually, treating vMA as a dps race might cause more harm than good: I've heard many horror stories about people getting stuck on the giant boss because they tried to burn her down asap, causing her minions to swarm them to death.
I'm not saying that tank setup is optimal for vMA (though ww hp regen build used to be popular for a reason) but it's not really comparable to what people usually mean when they talk about dps races. And if we're talking about semantics, then even a simple harvester is a dps race.
But the required amount isn't "so small". That's what you don't seem to understand. You seem to believe that defensive tank characters are walking around doing 15k DPS no problem and that that's such a "small amount" it's comparable to the amount they need to defeat quest monsters. lol
I'm sorry Narlcarya, but that's just ridiculous. I have probably a half dozen builds easily that don't do 15k DPS yet can solo every (or nearly every) World Boss on this game with ease. You simply cannot compare the offensive requirements for VMA to questing and landscape content. They aren't even remotely on par.
Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 11:09PM0 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭VMA is very easy you can do it on a variety of builds so the question is, why would you be stubborn and saying 'I want to do it on a no damage build that is pointless for solo play?'
Make your tank a wolf and do it on that, very easy.
Is it that you cant do it or that you just want to stand and hold block so things die of boredom?
You make a solo build that is a jack of all trades not Pidgeon hole yourself into uselessness.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VMA is very easy you can do it on a variety of builds so the question is, why would you be stubborn and saying 'I want to do it on a no damage build that is pointless for solo play?'
Make your tank a wolf and do it on that, very easy.
Is it that you cant do it or that you just want to stand and hold block so things die of boredom?
You make a solo build that is a jack of all trades not Pidgeon hole yourself into uselessness.
That's actually the opposite of what I'm saying. I am saying DO NOT attempt VMA on a low damage build because the content is not designed to accommodate it.
The problem on this thread is for some weird reason people just aren't willing to admit this and continue to push this fantasy that VMA welcomes all builds - even defensive builds with poor offenses. IT DOESN'T.
But as far as general soloing outside of VMA - you hardly need 15k DPS to be effective at that and purely defensive builds can solo just fine and tank just fine (which is of course what it's role in group content would be). What would be silly and pointless to me would be for me to respec my defensive characters or tanks every time I want to go solo something when it's not needed (or even preferred, as soloing as a DPS is even more boring because everything basically dies instantly). Unfortunately though if I want to do VMA I have to do just that - because defensive characters with low offenses cannot progress in VMA due to... yes - DPS races! Which is what my point was all along. I also know many players who would disagree with you that my tank or defensive characters are "useless". It's nice to have some defense on hand sometimes - even while doing solo questing content (like when a dragon lands etc.).Edited by Jeremy on October 21, 2019 11:33PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭soochie52_ESO wrote: »I would like to see ZOS make a couple Maelstrom-type arenas that are designed to test the skills of and give bragging rights to healers and tanks. The Healer arena can involve multiple NPC's that the player has to keep buffed, healed, give resources to, shield, mitigate damage etc - all the things awesome healers do. The tank arena can involve the player moving mobs, keeping up taunt and interrupting etc to protect NPC's and of course taking and avoiding huge damaging attacks.
Just think of how fun it would be for healers and tanks to have the same bragging rights and go thru the same challenges the DPS get to - it would be so much fun!
But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS.
It does. There is not one there to tank and interrupt for us for us so we must manage the agro and interupts. There is no one there to heal for us so we must manage the healer. I have cleared it on my trial healer which some tweaks of course. Went well.
No it doesn't.
Any character who goes into VMA expecting to use healing or defensive strategies to beat it is going to disappointed. VMA requires a good offense and will shun any character build that does not have one.
In the same token any player that goes into vMA thinking they will just dps their way through it is going to be disappointing. vMA requires a triple threat which is why it is so challenging.
So yea, it pretty much requires builds specific for that though many solid PvP builds work just fine. So you are very correct but your comment is not a valid point supporting what OP has suggested.
As I said, and you quoted, I have cleared vMA on my healer. Of course I changed up my build but it was not a DPS build. It was very much specifically for vMA to allow me to take the damage (tank), heal myself (healer) and kill what needed to be killed). I did what was needed and no different that what I did on my dps characters.
So to think that there could be a solo instance where a player could simply heal, buff and such some NPCs and call it a challenge equivalent to vMA, not possible because the healer is clearly not at any risk as long as they simply do what healers do normally.Edited by idk on October 21, 2019 11:24PM1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
I didn't compare the difficulty, I compared the concept of using offensive skills. Please re-read my first post:
And why did you ignore my question about dps races?LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
I didn't ignore it. I said it was ridiculous.
Having some offensive capabilities is not the same as requiring a certain amount of it otherwise you die. You cannot "outlast" enemies in VMA through attrition or by effectively defending yourself. It requires an offensive strategy.
It's essentially the same thing when this "required amount" is so small. Especially when you have access to dps boost and reflective shield.
There's no enemy in game that you can "outlast", and Maelstrom is no different. You can take your time killing mobs, but in the end you'll have to kill them anyway.
Actually, treating vMA as a dps race might cause more harm than good: I've heard many horror stories about people getting stuck on the giant boss because they tried to burn her down asap, causing her minions to swarm them to death.
I'm not saying that tank setup is optimal for vMA (though ww hp regen build used to be popular for a reason) but it's not really comparable to what people usually mean when they talk about dps races. And if we're talking about semantics, then even a simple harvester is a dps race.
But the required amount isn't "so small". That's what you don't seem to understand. You seem to believe that defensive tank characters are walking around doing 15k DPS no problem and that that's such a "small amount" it's comparable to the amount they need to defeat quest monsters. lol
I'm sorry Narlcarya, but that's just ridiculous. I have probably a half dozen builds easily that don't do 15k DPS yet can solo every (or nearly every) World Boss on this game with ease. You simply cannot compare the offensive requirements for VMA to questing and landscape content. They aren't even remotely on par.
I mean, I never argued that it's hard if your character is not optimized for it (or if you're unexperienced). But there's no technical handicaps that make it impossible with low dps. Otherwise people would be unable to clear it on tanks, naked chars, hp regen werewolves etc. If you look at dps counters in challenge run videos, you'll see that their damage often dips below 15k, yet they still manage to clear it... Which means that even if there is a hardcoded dps threshold, it's extremely low.
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭soochie52_ESO wrote: »I would like to see ZOS make a couple Maelstrom-type arenas that are designed to test the skills of and give bragging rights to healers and tanks. The Healer arena can involve multiple NPC's that the player has to keep buffed, healed, give resources to, shield, mitigate damage etc - all the things awesome healers do. The tank arena can involve the player moving mobs, keeping up taunt and interrupting etc to protect NPC's and of course taking and avoiding huge damaging attacks.
Just think of how fun it would be for healers and tanks to have the same bragging rights and go thru the same challenges the DPS get to - it would be so much fun!
But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS.
It does. There is not one there to tank and interrupt for us for us so we must manage the agro and interupts. There is no one there to heal for us so we must manage the healer. I have cleared it on my trial healer which some tweaks of course. Went well.
No it doesn't.
Any character who goes into VMA expecting to use healing or defensive strategies to beat it is going to disappointed. VMA requires a good offense and will shun any character build that does not have one.
In the same token any player that goes into vMA thinking they will just dps their way through it is going to be disappointing. vMA requires a triple threat which is why it is so challenging.
So yea, it pretty much requires builds specific for that though many solid PvP builds work just fine. So you are very correct but your comment is not a valid point supporting what OP has suggested.
As I said, and you quoted, I have cleared vMA on my healer. Of course I changed up my build but it was not a DPS build. It was very much specifically for vMA to allow me to take the damage (tank), heal myself (healer) and kill what needed to be killed). I did what was needed and no different that what I did on my dps characters.
So to think that there could be a solo instance where a player could simply heal, buff and such some NPCs and call it a challenge equivalent to vMA, not possible because the healer is clearly not at any risk as long as they simply do what healers do normally.
I said VMA has DPS race mechanics (and it does) and it shuns defensive builds with low offenses (it does). I never said you could walk into VMA as a glass cannon and destroy it. I tried to make that clear in a previous post when I said VMA is like a mini game that forces players to tailor their build to accommodate its - what I would describe as gimmicky and lame - trial and error mechanics.
In respect to the OP's idea - he is suggesting adding NPC groups into the mix so players could function as a tank or a healer instead of a"well-rounded" soloing DPS confined by the demands of the content. And I believe that's a good idea. I also disagree with you that creating challenging content for a healer or tank isn't possible. I believe it could be.
But in the spirit of being productive - I do understand (I think) what you took issue with. When I said VMA was made for DPS I did not mean to imply damage was a player's only concern and they would not need to consider their own survival. So if that was the rub, I hope I clarified that for you.Edited by Jeremy on October 22, 2019 12:11AM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
I didn't compare the difficulty, I compared the concept of using offensive skills. Please re-read my first post:
And why did you ignore my question about dps races?LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
I didn't ignore it. I said it was ridiculous.
Having some offensive capabilities is not the same as requiring a certain amount of it otherwise you die. You cannot "outlast" enemies in VMA through attrition or by effectively defending yourself. It requires an offensive strategy.
It's essentially the same thing when this "required amount" is so small. Especially when you have access to dps boost and reflective shield.
There's no enemy in game that you can "outlast", and Maelstrom is no different. You can take your time killing mobs, but in the end you'll have to kill them anyway.
Actually, treating vMA as a dps race might cause more harm than good: I've heard many horror stories about people getting stuck on the giant boss because they tried to burn her down asap, causing her minions to swarm them to death.
I'm not saying that tank setup is optimal for vMA (though ww hp regen build used to be popular for a reason) but it's not really comparable to what people usually mean when they talk about dps races. And if we're talking about semantics, then even a simple harvester is a dps race.
But the required amount isn't "so small". That's what you don't seem to understand. You seem to believe that defensive tank characters are walking around doing 15k DPS no problem and that that's such a "small amount" it's comparable to the amount they need to defeat quest monsters. lol
I'm sorry Narlcarya, but that's just ridiculous. I have probably a half dozen builds easily that don't do 15k DPS yet can solo every (or nearly every) World Boss on this game with ease. You simply cannot compare the offensive requirements for VMA to questing and landscape content. They aren't even remotely on par.
I mean, I never argued that it's hard if your character is not optimized for it (or if you're unexperienced). But there's no technical handicaps that make it impossible with low dps. Otherwise people would be unable to clear it on tanks, naked chars, hp regen werewolves etc. If you look at dps counters in challenge run videos, you'll see that their damage often dips below 15k, yet they still manage to clear it... Which means that even if there is a hardcoded dps threshold, it's extremely low.
But it is impossible with low dps.
Try doing VMA on a defensive character with say 5k DPS. You won't get very far I promise you. If players are clearing it on tanks - then they are clearing it as offensive tanks (not defensive ones) and anyone who clears VMA naked is cheating.
15k DPS (even if it occasionally can dip below that) is not "extremely low" for defensive builds and tanks. 15k only sounds extremely low to you because you most-likely are used to playing offensive characters.Edited by Jeremy on October 22, 2019 12:16AM0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭soochie52_ESO wrote: »I would like to see ZOS make a couple Maelstrom-type arenas that are designed to test the skills of and give bragging rights to healers and tanks. The Healer arena can involve multiple NPC's that the player has to keep buffed, healed, give resources to, shield, mitigate damage etc - all the things awesome healers do. The tank arena can involve the player moving mobs, keeping up taunt and interrupting etc to protect NPC's and of course taking and avoiding huge damaging attacks.
Just think of how fun it would be for healers and tanks to have the same bragging rights and go thru the same challenges the DPS get to - it would be so much fun!
But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS.
It does. There is not one there to tank and interrupt for us for us so we must manage the agro and interupts. There is no one there to heal for us so we must manage the healer. I have cleared it on my trial healer which some tweaks of course. Went well.
No it doesn't.
Any character who goes into VMA expecting to use healing or defensive strategies to beat it is going to disappointed. VMA requires a good offense and will shun any character build that does not have one.
In the same token any player that goes into vMA thinking they will just dps their way through it is going to be disappointing. vMA requires a triple threat which is why it is so challenging.
So yea, it pretty much requires builds specific for that though many solid PvP builds work just fine. So you are very correct but your comment is not a valid point supporting what OP has suggested.
As I said, and you quoted, I have cleared vMA on my healer. Of course I changed up my build but it was not a DPS build. It was very much specifically for vMA to allow me to take the damage (tank), heal myself (healer) and kill what needed to be killed). I did what was needed and no different that what I did on my dps characters.
So to think that there could be a solo instance where a player could simply heal, buff and such some NPCs and call it a challenge equivalent to vMA, not possible because the healer is clearly not at any risk as long as they simply do what healers do normally.
I said VMA has DPS race mechanics (and it does) and it shuns defensive builds with low offenses (it does). I never said you could walk into VMA as a glass cannon and destroy it. I tried to make that clear in a previous post when I said VMA is like a mini game that forces players to tailor their build to accommodate its - what I would describe as gimmicky and lame - trial and error mechanics.
In respect to the OP's idea - he is suggesting adding NPC groups into the mix so players could function as a tank or a healer instead of a"well-rounded" soloing DPS confined by the demands of the content. And I believe that's a good idea. I also disagree with you that creating challenging content for a healer or tank isn't possible. I believe it could be.
But in the spirit of being productive - I do understand (I think) what you took issue with. When I said VMA was made for DPS I did not mean to imply damage was a player's only concern and they would not need to consider their own survival. So if that was the rub, I hope I clarified that for you.
I replied to you because this idea (that vMA is a dps race) is what causes troubles for most people who are struggling with it. They try to burst everything, fail and then assume it was because their dps wasn't high enough.LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
I didn't compare the difficulty, I compared the concept of using offensive skills. Please re-read my first post:
And why did you ignore my question about dps races?LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
I didn't ignore it. I said it was ridiculous.
Having some offensive capabilities is not the same as requiring a certain amount of it otherwise you die. You cannot "outlast" enemies in VMA through attrition or by effectively defending yourself. It requires an offensive strategy.
It's essentially the same thing when this "required amount" is so small. Especially when you have access to dps boost and reflective shield.
There's no enemy in game that you can "outlast", and Maelstrom is no different. You can take your time killing mobs, but in the end you'll have to kill them anyway.
Actually, treating vMA as a dps race might cause more harm than good: I've heard many horror stories about people getting stuck on the giant boss because they tried to burn her down asap, causing her minions to swarm them to death.
I'm not saying that tank setup is optimal for vMA (though ww hp regen build used to be popular for a reason) but it's not really comparable to what people usually mean when they talk about dps races. And if we're talking about semantics, then even a simple harvester is a dps race.
But the required amount isn't "so small". That's what you don't seem to understand. You seem to believe that defensive tank characters are walking around doing 15k DPS no problem and that that's such a "small amount" it's comparable to the amount they need to defeat quest monsters. lol
I'm sorry Narlcarya, but that's just ridiculous. I have probably a half dozen builds easily that don't do 15k DPS yet can solo every (or nearly every) World Boss on this game with ease. You simply cannot compare the offensive requirements for VMA to questing and landscape content. They aren't even remotely on par.
I mean, I never argued that it's hard if your character is not optimized for it (or if you're unexperienced). But there's no technical handicaps that make it impossible with low dps. Otherwise people would be unable to clear it on tanks, naked chars, hp regen werewolves etc. If you look at dps counters in challenge run videos, you'll see that their damage often dips below 15k, yet they still manage to clear it... Which means that even if there is a hardcoded dps threshold, it's extremely low.
But it is impossible with low dps.
Try doing VMA on a defensive character with say 5k DPS. You won't get very far I promise you. If players are clearing it on tanks - then they are clearing it as offensive tanks (not defensive ones) and anyone who clears VMA naked is cheating.
15k DPS (even if it occasionally can dip below that) is not "extremely low" for defensive builds and tanks. 15k only sounds extremely low to you because you most-likely are used to playing offensive characters.
I guess if I reply to this you'll just move the goalpost to "light attacks only".
As for cheating accusations, I won't even comment on that. Feel free to continue believing that vMA is hard because of dps races, I don't mind.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭soochie52_ESO wrote: »I would like to see ZOS make a couple Maelstrom-type arenas that are designed to test the skills of and give bragging rights to healers and tanks. The Healer arena can involve multiple NPC's that the player has to keep buffed, healed, give resources to, shield, mitigate damage etc - all the things awesome healers do. The tank arena can involve the player moving mobs, keeping up taunt and interrupting etc to protect NPC's and of course taking and avoiding huge damaging attacks.
Just think of how fun it would be for healers and tanks to have the same bragging rights and go thru the same challenges the DPS get to - it would be so much fun!
But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS.
It does. There is not one there to tank and interrupt for us for us so we must manage the agro and interupts. There is no one there to heal for us so we must manage the healer. I have cleared it on my trial healer which some tweaks of course. Went well.
No it doesn't.
Any character who goes into VMA expecting to use healing or defensive strategies to beat it is going to disappointed. VMA requires a good offense and will shun any character build that does not have one.
In the same token any player that goes into vMA thinking they will just dps their way through it is going to be disappointing. vMA requires a triple threat which is why it is so challenging.
So yea, it pretty much requires builds specific for that though many solid PvP builds work just fine. So you are very correct but your comment is not a valid point supporting what OP has suggested.
As I said, and you quoted, I have cleared vMA on my healer. Of course I changed up my build but it was not a DPS build. It was very much specifically for vMA to allow me to take the damage (tank), heal myself (healer) and kill what needed to be killed). I did what was needed and no different that what I did on my dps characters.
So to think that there could be a solo instance where a player could simply heal, buff and such some NPCs and call it a challenge equivalent to vMA, not possible because the healer is clearly not at any risk as long as they simply do what healers do normally.
I said VMA has DPS race mechanics (and it does) and it shuns defensive builds with low offenses (it does). I never said you could walk into VMA as a glass cannon and destroy it. I tried to make that clear in a previous post when I said VMA is like a mini game that forces players to tailor their build to accommodate its - what I would describe as gimmicky and lame - trial and error mechanics.
In respect to the OP's idea - he is suggesting adding NPC groups into the mix so players could function as a tank or a healer instead of a"well-rounded" soloing DPS confined by the demands of the content. And I believe that's a good idea. I also disagree with you that creating challenging content for a healer or tank isn't possible. I believe it could be.
But in the spirit of being productive - I do understand (I think) what you took issue with. When I said VMA was made for DPS I did not mean to imply damage was a player's only concern and they would not need to consider their own survival. So if that was the rub, I hope I clarified that for you.
That is not what the OP is suggesting. They are not suggesting adding NPCs to fill out the rest of the roles in vMA. To essentially make it a group function with NPCs being the rest of the group. Not that what they are actually suggesting would be a challenge anything like vMA is now but having what you post here would certainly make it a weak version of vMA.
And again, I have cleared vMA on my trial healer just fine. Just like I make build changes to my dps characters when I go into vMA I made changes to my healer to meet the challenge. So anyone can clear vMA on their tank and healer but they obviously need to change the build to one that is appropriate for the instance because it is intended to be more complex than just focusing on one thing as the OP is suggesting.
Edit; And yes, the healer and tank will need to do dps in order to clear vMA. That is part of what they need to change in their build. Any healer or tank worth their salt would also be able to handle adding some dps to their build.Edited by idk on October 22, 2019 2:58AM1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time otherwise you die.
And while it may make perfect sense to you to shun defensive characters in solo content - it certainly doesn't to me.
What are those dps races you speak of?
In fact, vMA requires so little dps that you can do it on tank (yes, really). You can even use magical sigils that significantly boost your damage and tankiness.https://youtu.be/qw_RWyq1LRQhttps://youtu.be/8JlOeQ2q9kg
Also, people do have problems with quest bosses. I recall players having issues with that priest boss in DB dlc, corrupted Mane in Reaper's and others.
Of course, vMA is harder than normal overland content because V stands for Veteran.
Comparing quest bosses to VMA is just absurd. I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.
I didn't compare the difficulty, I compared the concept of using offensive skills. Please re-read my first post:
And why did you ignore my question about dps races?LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
I didn't ignore it. I said it was ridiculous.
Having some offensive capabilities is not the same as requiring a certain amount of it otherwise you die. You cannot "outlast" enemies in VMA through attrition or by effectively defending yourself. It requires an offensive strategy.
It's essentially the same thing when this "required amount" is so small. Especially when you have access to dps boost and reflective shield.
There's no enemy in game that you can "outlast", and Maelstrom is no different. You can take your time killing mobs, but in the end you'll have to kill them anyway.
Actually, treating vMA as a dps race might cause more harm than good: I've heard many horror stories about people getting stuck on the giant boss because they tried to burn her down asap, causing her minions to swarm them to death.
I'm not saying that tank setup is optimal for vMA (though ww hp regen build used to be popular for a reason) but it's not really comparable to what people usually mean when they talk about dps races. And if we're talking about semantics, then even a simple harvester is a dps race.
But the required amount isn't "so small". That's what you don't seem to understand. You seem to believe that defensive tank characters are walking around doing 15k DPS no problem and that that's such a "small amount" it's comparable to the amount they need to defeat quest monsters. lol
I'm sorry Narlcarya, but that's just ridiculous. I have probably a half dozen builds easily that don't do 15k DPS yet can solo every (or nearly every) World Boss on this game with ease. You simply cannot compare the offensive requirements for VMA to questing and landscape content. They aren't even remotely on par.
I mean, I never argued that it's hard if your character is not optimized for it (or if you're unexperienced). But there's no technical handicaps that make it impossible with low dps. Otherwise people would be unable to clear it on tanks, naked chars, hp regen werewolves etc. If you look at dps counters in challenge run videos, you'll see that their damage often dips below 15k, yet they still manage to clear it... Which means that even if there is a hardcoded dps threshold, it's extremely low.
anyone who clears VMA naked is cheating.
I actually don't care about the rest of your post or your thoughts on vMA, but will you take that bolded statement back?
https://youtu.be/f8PV9N8JBpc 0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
VMA is a DPS race. Most of the mechanics revolve around doing just that and you aren't going to convince me otherwise because I've done it and come to that conclusion myself through my own experiences. Try doing VMA as a low damage defensive tank and see how it works out for you. I'll give you a hint: it won't end well.
I'm glad you like VMA. But I found it incredibly lame trial and error game play reminiscent of ancient video games from the 1980's. So I wasn't impressed with it. If you consider it "excellent design" I think it's safe to say me and you are not going to find common ground here.
Having damage requisite checks does not equal being a dps race. Vma is most definitely not a dps race, that isnt an opinion.
This is turning into a stupid semantic debate over what a "DPS race" is.
If the content shuns defensive characters (as VMA does) and requires you to build offensively (which it does) in order to pass your so-called "requisite damage checks" then yes, I would describe that as DPS-race oriented mechanics. It requires you to kill something quickly before you die - which sums up most of VMA.
The only thing we agree on is that this isn't an opinion. Because it's not. If you don't think VMA is a DPS race - then go in there as a defensive tank and see how far you get.
I mean, you could say the same about quests. It's not possible to tank or heal stuff to death, any character needs some offensive capabilities.
It makes perfect sense that more challenging solo content (such as vMA or soloing world bosses) requires more of that.
That's ridiculous because quests do not require you to focus on reaching certain damage thresholds otherwise you die. That is the logic behind a DPS race: that you must do a certain amount of damage within so much time else you die.
A dps race involves a mechanic that will one-shot wipe you unless you kill the target within a certain time frame, or a mechanic/phase in a fight that will eventually wipe you, ...
That is exactly right.
And that is exactly what you will encounter in VMA.
No, it's really not With mitigation, you can just stand there and tank all the things, now if you can't interrupt a troll every now and then, that's another issue...
I only hope no one actually takes this comment seriously and attempts to defeat VMA by just standing there and tanking everything. Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you.
That's not what I meant, it was a reference to your 'it's a dps race', and I was trying, albeit hyperbolically, to tell you that no, it isn't. Because you can stand there indefinitely, and that's not how dps-race mechanics work. You can reduce your argument to absurdity to make your point all you want, but the truth still stands: it's not a dps race, yes, you have to kill things, but these two things are not the same--and yes, you can do it on a tanky build, or a build with a lot of mitigation (plague doctor 1-bar sorc runs a-plenty), as numerous people have mentioned before. If you feel better about vMA by calling it a dps race, then that's an entirely different matter.0 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭This would be so easy, it's not even worth it.I could care less about bragging rights. But it would be nice if Maelstrom Arena was designed to accommodate all combat roles instead of just DPS. That's one of the reasons I have so little interest in it. It's basically just one long DPS race and that's just not that interesting to me. I've always considered DPS race mechanics a lazy and cheap way to make content challenging. VMA is exhibit A for what I would consider horrid game design, especially in a MMO context and on a game that prides itself on diversity of play. So I like your approach to the arena far better.
Have to correct you on that. VMA is not a dps race and it never was. Granted arenas can feel easier with higher dps but you can still finish it with around 15k dps. High dps won't help you against number of mechanics. I like VMA a lot and especially it's attitude to kill you in plenty ways at the moments you did not expect. VMA has excellent design and each arena feel unique inside with their own flavour and mechanics you need to master.
I'm going to correct you on that one as well. Whilst the whole arena may not technical be a DPS race, there are certainly DPS races in VMA.
Also, high DPS helps with all mechanics in there.
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0