3 faction PvP is not working

Wing · October 2019

history lesson for those that don't know, a lot of the lead Dev's for ESO during creation / launch (some are still here ^_^) were previously lead Dev's on another MMO called dark ages of Camelot. this MMO was based around mass 3 faction pvp combat with sieges and relics you could steal from the other faction.

ring any bells?

it worked very well for DaoC, in fact with a focus on pvp and the agency that form of gameplay provides the game held very consistent player numbers despite classic content luls, but the pvp kept players around.

if anyone was around for ESO launch they could tell you that the same was true for ESO, the PvP was a big selling point of the game, the trailers all focus on the factions fighting each other, and fighting for the imperial city, one of the first things people did was head into PvP and engage in mass combat, patch notes contained lists of fixes and improvements for pvp, and one of the first big DLC's was a PvP zone (IC) the engine and game was designed around needing to support mass 50+ 50+ 50+ battles.

fast forward to now, comparatively pvp is dead.

kind of interesting considering no game came out that really stole the PvP thunder, nothing came out that did the mass PvP better in an MMO space, ZOS just kind of abandoned it.

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so the reason 3 way PvP is not working is that the idea was that if 1 faction was dominating, that the other 2 would gang up on it. . .this does not happen, what happens more often then not is if faction 2 sees faction 1 gating faction 3, they also jump on the easy win and also attack faction 3.

next DaoC had more of a focus on the fights rather then objectives, and maps were more linear in nature. ESO prioritizes what we call PvDoor, its more effective to avoid fights and zerg empty keeps before a fight takes place then it is to fight itself (downfall 1)

elder scrolls / relics. in ESO its FAR and away more simple to get an elder scroll then a relic, in ESO terms you would have to stand at a scroll temple in 3 separate glowing rings for 5 minutes to lower the wards on a relic, when you did this a message notified the server what was going on, relic carrier were also unable to be effected by speed buffs of any kind.

further more captured relics were stored in frontier keeps only (front line keeps) and factions were still able to steal relics even when their own was stolen.

in ESO:
-elder scrolls are very easy to back door / zerg.
-you cannot steal any without your own
-scroll carriers are often purpose built to outrun anything but a sprinting horse.
-scrolls are often placed in backline keeps

all these changes cripple the system, it easy to steal scrolls without a fight / give the defender little chance to react, and once a scroll is picked up, in almost all cases that person is gone, we don't really get fights over scrolls anymore. if you don't have scrolls you cannot go on offense and try and steal opposing scrolls in kind (you lose a strategic option, and the enemy faction knows this)

EMPEROR!

a unique inclusion to ESO (and a selling point at launch) this was kind of part of their idea that if a faction was winning (had emperor) that the others would gang up on it (dethrone) it works as much as it fails. if a faction is in a position to emp they get another bonus. dethrone throws all tactics out the window.

-emp loss requires loss of ALL keeps, obviously the emp faction stacks the last keep. considering that an attacking force already requires an advantage of some kind, giving the defending force the advantage of:
-having emp
-knowing where they are going to attack
-forcing them to take the keep.

just ends up having factions marching into a firing squad in an attempt to not even win, but re level the playing field. lets not even mention that assuming the 2 losing factions will come together to dethrone assumes a situation the SERVERS CANNOT HANDLE. you included a design feature that plans for the situation of all 3 factions fighting at one keep, something the game itself is no longer capable of handling. a quick fix would probably be requiring 2 keeps to be emperor, that would split the defense and put a bit of agency on the defenders needing to move between keeps and not sit and wait at one with firing line ready.

campaigns.

need to be removed but players should still receive rewards of some kind. what happens is once the winning faction gets to a point (literally) where the other factions cannot compete, the other factions stop fighting and try to screw each other over for second. this results in week(s) of the dominant faction not only being dominant in the first place but running riot for the final week(s) and this once again compound the problem of when the winning faction is gating another, the faction not being targeted gangs up on the loser to reinforce a second place "finish".

not really going to get into time zones and groups.

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PvP obviously needs server and game design changes to function period, but also needs an overhaul of map / mechanics to play well. if none of that is possible, could we drop it to just two factions. could even make a lore / update about it where the factions group up VS IC and it becomes inner keeps vs outer keeps or something.

literally any update would be more interesting then what we get now, because what we get now, is nothing.

Iskiab · October 2019

Have you ever played a 2 faction pvp game? I don’t think so. 3 faction pvp is just better, in almost all aspects. I get the impression that those who like 2 factions came from WoW or have never played a 2 faction game, they’re horrible.

As someone who’s played a lot of two faction games let me tell you how it goes:

My last two faction pvp games here’s how they went. You start the game in a pvp guild all excited. Then the game releases so what do you do - you pvp as a hardcore pvp guild. What happens when hardcore pvp guilds play? They dominate.

Warhammer:

Started on Avelorn and coordinated with other guilds for competition. Still did well and dominated the server. Then casual players rerolled onto the winning faction and competition dried up.

BGs: Constant gate camping even solo queuing. There was a mechanic with guards so pulling guards would kill lots of people letting the other team push back, but then right back to spawn camping.

Rift:

Server capacity was an issue so we couldn’t roll on the same server as other pvp guilds. Since the server was lower pop total domination and no competition, people left in droves.

BGs were bad too. No MMR system at launch, it was a game to see if you could shutout the entire other team.

I see people talk about two faction cyrodiil a LOT, but it’s all from inexperience imo. 3 factions is infinitely better. It’s like democracy to use an analogy, it has issues but is the best system there is BY FAR. Every system has issues, but there are far less in 3 faction pvp.

Wing · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Have you ever played a 2 faction pvp game? I don’t think so. 3 faction pvp is just better, in almost all aspects. I get the impression that those who like 2 factions came from WoW or have never played a 2 faction game, they’re horrible.

we would get fights, that's the theory behind PvP, that's why its not called PvDoor.

SeaGtGruff · October 2019

I wasn't playing ESO back when it launched, so I don't know what I'm talking about (isn't it refreshing to hear someone say that instead of having to tell them that that?

), but wasn't the Imperial City DLC added later, as opposed to being available from the initial launch? I thought it went as follows:

04/04/2014 -- The Elder Scrolls Online
08/31/2015 -- The Elder Scrolls Online: Imperial City

EDIT: Sorry, I'm not trying to quibble, or shift focus away from your point. It's just that you made it sound like Imperial City AvA PvP was part of ESO from the very beginning, which is confusing me.

VaranisArano · October 2019

ESO 3-way PVP works pretty well when campaigns are populated and competitive.

The major reason they aren't populated is that performance sucks, has sucked for years, and shows every sign of getting worse unless ZOS somehow puls off something amazing in their promised performance updates.

If PVP is going to survive in any form in Cyrodiil in particular, ZOS has got to fix the performance, the lag, anf the bugs. Its crippling PVP.

fastolfv_ESO · October 2019

you cannot make a pvp game 2 factions, it has never been successful. Most 2 faction games fallback on bgs as a last ditch effort, its why we knew eso was doomed to fail when they went ah hell here guys have bgs that should make you happy right?

RebornV3x · October 2019

I hate the three faction war in ESO its sounds great on paper but this community just craps all over it

they might want to experiment with something like Planetside 2 does where you get bonus exp for being in the undermanned faction in this case it would be more exp, gold and AP

maybe a system with territory instead of keeps or just take out a few keeps out where there are certain links from one territory to the next that have to be taken in order for you to actually cap the zone
they could learn alot from the way Planetside 2 handles a three faction war.

another idea is to have some events that happen to one of the other alliances if one alliance is gated in order to get the other 2 to fight each other for example let say Blue and Yellow are gating red at Kings/Farra some super weapon or something will spawn at lets say Fort Ash in 30 minutes giving Blue a buff if someone can't take the keep withen that time frame. this would get yellow to back off and attack blue and blue will have to defend giving red time to get back into the fight.

region locked servers sadly without a Oceanic server this really isn't a possibility and would alienate players

idk · October 2019

While OP is correct that the first DLC was PvP based, the first two pieces of content added to the game was 100% PvE focused. The game has always leaned more towards PvE. The 3 banner war story OP speaks of is in both PvE and PvP.

Further, when you look at the busy times for PvP the three sides have large populations. It is common to see two alliances working together but we tend to notice when it is the two alliances we are fighting against vs when our alliance is working with one. It has been this way since the early months of this game.

Further, two factions is worse, much worse, than two factions as any imbalance becomes much more obvious.

Thx for your opinion though.

TheDarkShadow · October 2019

"faction 2 sees faction 1 gating faction 3, they also jump on the easy win and also attack faction 3"

Then what happens when all the keeps of faction 3 were taken? Faction 1 will turn to faction 2 and while they're busy fighting each other faction 3 will take back their keeps, at least the 3 that holding gates. Yes sometime you will log in Cyrodiil and see 1 color map, but that's just because the other factions went to sleep. You log in at the wrong time doesnt mean the system is not working. And after they took everything they will get bored and log out too. Then tomorrow the others 2 will log back and change the map.

Heyodude · October 2019

I agree with alot of this but the one thing that I think you have wrong is that other games did come out and steal the player base. Its not just one game it was a bunch of different games that isolated and capitalized the pvp experience this gaming generation.

It really started with over watch, thats when i jumped ship on eso pvp the first time. Then forkknife restructured its self from a coop group survival sim into the pvp power house it is today, that move alone took the majority of pvp players out of almost every other game. Rainbow Siege followed in the live service model and kept maintaining their game until it began to break through from a rough start.

And all of these games among their clones have one real specific thing going for them, its that they all make a clear stand to be pvp they craft the experience for it.

ESO on the other hand is half in and half out on any one idea its had since morrowind. ZOS cant tell you anything definetively about their product. They cant even settle on what their class system means and how its supposed to be implemented. Hell. light attack weaving, the most essential part of the game. is illuminated in a very brief loading screen flavor text that actually is a *** poor descriptor when read from a veteran players point of view.

Its ZOS's inability to commit to any one decision for more than 12 weeks at a time that is killing pvp.

Sahidom · October 2019

Tamriel One's wonder child release ruined the 3-way faction PVP. They should have never allowed cross faction character creation. Instead, once characters were created (or existing) the whole world opened up without the Cadwell's mission. These same faction characters would have been able to group up with other factions for running and completing PVE content. Their decision for not adhering to strict factions with character creation demonstrates the short-sighted vision of the developers that caused permanent, and irreversible, harm to the ESO product. . Sorry, it's the harsh truth.

@Wing You were right. PVP was an original selling point of the game and 3-way faction warfare would have been strong and consistent with more long-term vision when Tamriel One was released. Meanwhile, those players wanting to participate in PVE content would have been able to group with their cross faction friends without effecting the 3-way faction war in Cyrodiil/IC. Irreversible harm has been done by their own hands; Tamriel One could have simply removed the Cadwell's mission requirements to open up the world and unlocked the restriction that enabled cross faction character to group for running PVE content.

NOW... We have faction locks illustrates the gravity of their previous mistake. Unfortunately, even campaign faction locks won't fully remedy the irreversible harm published in Tamriel One. IF they only disallowed the cross faction character creation than it would have prevented so many campaign pain points: team green, team magenta, faction hopping, etc. on the servers.

The developers caused this problem and players abused it. This is why ESO will not be able to compete against upcoming games like Camelot Unchained.

idk · October 2019

@Sahidom

I hope you are not suggesting the PvP was the major selling point of the game as the game at launch was clearly PvE focused ith some PvP.

Yes, Zos talked about PvP but they also talked about PvE and spent time in dungeons and open world showing the different aspects of PvP. Heck, the mere fact the map was mostly PvE at launch and the first two expansions where PvE focused. Few major MMORPGs of this style are PvP focused as they tend to not do great financially in today's market.

Further, I found your suggestion that changes in PvE had an impact on PvP. If it is suggesting players created characters in different factions as a result of T1 then that is debunked since many had already created characters in different factions well before T1 was even a thought. Seems odd. Maybe it was just not explained very well.

Sahidom · October 2019

idk wrote: »

@Sahidom

I hope you are not suggesting the PvP was the major selling point of the game as the game at launch was clearly PvE focused ith some PvP.

You're right. I'll correct myself. The 3-way faction battle to be Emperor was a key point about the Cyrodiil, and the motive to siege, defend and claim keeps for your faction's behalf. Please do not take my statements out of context when I'm here discussing the state of the 3-way faction PVP; and not really PVE.

For clarification on my statement, you're correct how the Tamriel One changes to benefit PVE resulted in irreversible harm to the PVP 3-way faction warfare. This was not "at fault" of the PVE players; but how the developers went about allowing cross faction players to group up together for running PVE content.

The_Old_Goat · October 2019

Pvp isn't dead because there are 3 factions or even faction locks. I'd say it has almost everything to do with Cryodiil performance and the constant shifting of class and ability buffing(or a lack thereof) and nerfing.

kpittsniperb14_ESO · October 2019

chainlink01 wrote: »

Pvp isn't dead because there are 3 factions or even faction locks. I'd say it has almost everything to do with Cryodiil performance and the constant shifting of class and ability buffing(or a lack thereof) and nerfing.

Good point but faction locks exacerbating the problem when the game doesn't have the population to support it or any sort of dynamic population balancing. Also gimmicky mechanics such as the artifacts aren't exactly helpful. But agreed, if they can somehow miraculously fix performance issues and grow the pvp pop back then faction lock won't be an issue.

Nova Sky · October 2019

I still miss MAG, a wonderful three-faction game ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAG_(video_game)

casparian · October 2019

Sahidom wrote: »

Tamriel One's wonder child release ruined the 3-way faction PVP.

The developers caused this problem and players abused it. This is why ESO will not be able to compete against upcoming games like Camelot Unchained.

Unfortunately, One Tamriel probably likely is the reason we have ESO at all these days. Casuals/PVE questers loved it, and they're now so core to ZOS' revenue model that I have no idea what ESO would look like without it.

Camelot Unchained is never coming out.

starkerealm · October 2019

A major issue with PvP in MMOs is that it take a long time to get a character ready for PvP. So, if you're here the PvP, you're going to look elsewhere when you realize how much downtime it requires to get PvP ready.

Dr_Ganknstein · October 2019

Pvp is dead? What plateform you play on?

Nordic__Knights · October 2019

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I wasn't playing ESO back when it launched, so I don't know what I'm talking about (isn't it refreshing to hear someone say that instead of having to tell them that that? ), but wasn't the Imperial City DLC added later, as opposed to being available from the initial launch? I thought it went as follows:

04/04/2014 -- The Elder Scrolls Online
08/31/2015 -- The Elder Scrolls Online: Imperial City

EDIT: Sorry, I'm not trying to quibble, or shift focus away from your point. It's just that you made it sound like Imperial City AvA PvP was part of ESO from the very beginning, which is confusing me.

I think you misunderstand the OP by his use of saying the Imperial City which is known as Cryodii as he wasn't implying to the DLC at that instant he was speaks about it later on because at release it even said fight for the Imperial City which did become funny when the first released DLC was Imperial City a zone that we were locked out of up until that time

FierceSam · October 2019

PvP may have started out as a major focus of the game, but it’s hard to think that that is the case now. 1 Tamriel saved ESO but meant that the notion that the endgame was PvP was totally dumped. Now PvP is essentially a totally separate mini-game with different class, build and skill requirements crowbarred into a larger PvE world.

Today I would imagine that there are more endgame PvE players than PvP ones (there are certainly way more PvE players than PvP ones). And I would imagine they have more commitment to the ESO lore/world than PvP players (who will go where the PvP is best and are less invested in the ‘story’ of the game). They will spend way more money in buying the game and in the Crown Store. The only place they will be under-represented is in the forums.

That said, 3 faction PvP is way more dynamic than 2 faction. Although just as prone to ‘gaming’. ZOS’s vision was for a never-ending back and forth where no one faction dominates or wins and campaigns only end when their time limit is reached. Players have seen beyond that and developed strategies which lock out a campaign so they have effectively ‘won’ (and can claim all the rewards) long before the campaign ends. ZOS have tried to adapt by adding random cataclysmic weapon drops to disrupt these strategies to varying effect. And the cycle continues.

Dojohoda · October 2019

Without elaborating on any particulars, I like having 3 factions.

Ysbriel · October 2019

Having your fps drop to 17 when the real battle begins is the real reason the 3 faction PvP doesnt work.

Nordic__Knights · October 2019

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

"faction 2 sees faction 1 gating faction 3, they also jump on the easy win and also attack faction 3"

Then what happens when all the keeps of faction 3 were taken? Faction 1 will turn to faction 2 and while they're busy fighting each other faction 3 will take back their keeps, at least the 3 that holding gates. Yes sometime you will log in Cyrodiil and see 1 color map, but that's just because the other factions went to sleep. You log in at the wrong time doesnt mean the system is not working. And after they took everything they will get bored and log out too. Then tomorrow the others 2 will log back and change the map.

Unfortunately to say this ain't always true I can remember a time when the map used to be completely AD, EP would be gated with DC at one gate and AD at the other and we would hold them there for weeks it happened often as everyone was getting ap and no-one really cared for the overall win and I think DC was just happy it wasn't them at their Gates and I believe the reason why AD was left with the map was they had more ground to cover to get to the gates then both EP or DC

Tommy_The_Gun · October 2019

1v1v1 is not working ? What a surprise... In any RTS game (like Star Craft for example), whoever attacks 1st - looses. It is just how things work when you have 3 ppl fighting with no alliance.

1st player attacks - He/She may kill & defeat one opponent, but oh no ! What is this ? 3rd player destroyed my base... I have some units left from the attack, but 3rd dude still has his/her base and a full army left...

ESC -> Surrender

This is how 1v1v1 works in every game...

In eso however and other games where you can actually switch team it is far worse. Ppl re-log to different faction in alliance unlocked campaign, and in alliance locked campaign they either quite or dont care about the map (if they are loosing) and just form small resource troll groups to farm AP killing random PvE-ers....

Nordic__Knights · October 2019

Sahidom wrote: »

Tamriel One's wonder child release ruined the 3-way faction PVP. They should have never allowed cross faction character creation. Instead, once characters were created (or existing) the whole world opened up without the Cadwell's mission. These same faction characters would have been able to group up with other factions for running and completing PVE content. Their decision for not adhering to strict factions with character creation demonstrates the short-sighted vision of the developers that caused permanent, and irreversible, harm to the ESO product. . Sorry, it's the harsh truth.

@Wing You were right. PVP was an original selling point of the game and 3-way faction warfare would have been strong and consistent with more long-term vision when Tamriel One was released. Meanwhile, those players wanting to participate in PVE content would have been able to group with their cross faction friends without effecting the 3-way faction war in Cyrodiil/IC. Irreversible harm has been done by their own hands; Tamriel One could have simply removed the Cadwell's mission requirements to open up the world and unlocked the restriction that enabled cross faction character to group for running PVE content.

NOW... We have faction locks illustrates the gravity of their previous mistake. Unfortunately, even campaign faction locks won't fully remedy the irreversible harm published in Tamriel One. IF they only disallowed the cross faction character creation than it would have prevented so many campaign pain points: team green, team magenta, faction hopping, etc. on the servers.

The developers caused this problem and players abused it. This is why ESO will not be able to compete against upcoming games like Camelot Unchained.

You're 100% right on the fact that 1t is what killed PVP in eso it opened the door to boosting , buying and selling of campaign wins for gold jewelry before 1t every Alliance hated the OTHERS there was no in between we wasn't ABLE to group up and make friends from other alliances i still remember kicking and being kicked from dungeon groups just because you wasnt the same alliance as the majority of the group was are even sometimes just the leader as back then the leader had the chance to just kick you out no vote needed because it was an war between alliances we didn't want to be their friends we have been forced to be

maddiniiLuna · October 2019

We all know that cyrodiil is broken as *** and nobody cares. There is some promising new games coming out, just stick to them like everybody else. Small hype with the next patch until they see pvp still sucks and as soon as some good games come out there will be a huge drop in player numbers as usual.

Cyrodiil and pvp is fundamentally broken in eso. Especially for those that remember how fun it used to be. Who cares? I mean this is known since what a year? Where is the dev comments telling you what is happening or even that they see the problems? There are none. So as op says it's just abandoned and completely neglected.

Hallothiel · October 2019

But before 1 Tamriel you could still make characters on other alliances if you had the ‘any race any alliance’ version.

The reason pvp is ‘dying’, on PS4 at least, is much much more to do with lag, blue screens & disconnecting. It’s the main reason I have virtually stopped that part of my gaming - the frustration of massively interrupted gameplay.

Faction lock or the 3 alliances have very little to do with it.

Nordic__Knights · October 2019

Hallothiel wrote: »

But before 1 Tamriel you could still make characters on other alliances if you had the ‘any race any alliance’ version.

The reason pvp is ‘dying’, on PS4 at least, is much much more to do with lag, blue screens & disconnecting. It’s the main reason I have virtually stopped that part of my gaming - the frustration of massively interrupted gameplay.

Faction lock or the 3 alliances have very little to do with it.

Yes the performance sucks in cyrodiil for ps4 but bigger issues harm the war then it as its not fun at any time to be the 1 getting gated by 2 because after an lil time the 1 becomes just that 1 alliance in an empty area with nothing to do but quest and with the removal of IC theres not much around that ain't easily killed by just light attacks

teladoy · October 2019

I never liked Cyrodill and for me the problem was not the lag, it was simply not fun.

Why was not fun? Because I had to run big distances with my mount to wait till the assault begins to then die quickly and have to travel again, because PVP was zerging, because you don't have any feeling of reward and etc.

I like to do bgs. I liked bgs in wow and I like it here. I liked also in Warhammer despite the lag and the craziness... But... Now that I think it well, I remember start in Warhammer and almost directly they sent you to a place to do quests where the other faction was there and I have to say Warhammer did it very well in what is open world pvp.

I don't understand why ESO was designed in the beginning to make the world separated in 3 parts, where only a determined faction can quest without zones with cross factions. Also every map is instantiated....

I don't know, I think they could do it better... The Pve, lore, dungeons and everything is very fun... Now very easy to do, but the potential is still there.

Kalik_Gold · October 2019

Prefer multi guild politics like Shadowbane was over 2 or 3 faction.

Personally think Cyrodiil would be more fun with the alliance war ending. Then multiple guilds battle over all keeps and towns.

.