Theory: The Vestige is Molag Bal's Champion.

LukosCreyden · October 2019

I believe that our character, our Vestige is Molag Bal's Champion and that this will play into the story at some point in the future of the game. Here's my reasoning;

Molag Bal, the Dominator. Now, remember, Daedric Princes are not "evil". They do not abide to that sense of morality. They are what they are, what sphere they represent. Sheogorath is madness. for example. So, why is this important? After all, we fought directly against Bal and foiled his "plans". Well, that is exactly my point. Molag Bal likes it when you resist, when you fight back. After all, isn't that what domination is all about? Molag Bal likes it when people struggle.
So, after defeating Bal (or maybe even before), what does the Vestige do? They travel Tamriel and beyond, defeating any opposition they encounter. Mannimarco? The fallen Celestials in Craglorn? Rakkhat in the Maw of Lorkhaj? Barbas? Nocturnal's Champion? The opposing factions in Cyrodiil? The Dragons? All defeated. All dominated.

Molag Bal, the God of Schemes. Bal has plans within plans within plans. We know this. The Planemeld was only part of a grander scheme. What was this scheme? Maybe we won't ever know, maybe we will. What we DO know, however, is that Bal and Meridia do NOT get along. Interesting that the story seems to be leading to us facing off against Meridia sometime soon, isn't it? In fact, we've been doing that a lot, recently, with Clavicus Vile, Nocturnal etc... The Vestige has been going around, ruining the Prince's plans all over the place. Molag Bal is probably loving it.

Is the Vestige a part in Molag Bal's grand scheme? Did Bal intentionally set us on this path? At this point, only time will tell.

"One last thing. Why did Molag Bal leave Lyris any possibility of escape?
"Perhaps it was simply arrogance. Perhaps it was all part of his grand scheme. Who can know the logic of a Daedric Prince?
I will call upon you again when the time is right. Farewell, Vestige.""

SO. Thoughts? Do you think this theory has any weight?

VaranisArano · October 2019

I think you could roleplay it that way, but I don't think I buy it as a canon explanation, beyond the fact that Molag Bal would like us to believe that he didn't actually get his butt kicked by an empowered mortal.

Its a little like saying "Mehrunes Dagon is the Prince of change and destruction, and by stopping the Oblivion Crisis, you ushered in an era of massive change and destruction, so therefore the Champion of Cyrodiil was actually the champion of Mehrunes Dagon even though they and Martin Septim utterly crushed Dagon's plan to take over Nirn."

Its an interesting interpretation, but completely contrary to what we actually did in the game. And pretty contrary to how Mehrunes Dagon treats us in game. Its entirely possible to usher in an era of change and destruction without being a Champion of Mehrunes Dagon.

In this case, I find a much more convincing explanation to be that Molag Bal, Prince of Domination, just cannot stand to admit he lost. His loss has to be part of a bigger plan that means he didnt actually lose...which he'll boast about as soon as he figures it out.

In contrast, there's Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC, where we do actually get played as pawns by Hermaeus Mora to replace Miraak as his champion because we're now obligated to his service in return for his aid, and its made pretty clear that's what's going on. Or TES 3 Morrowind, where we are explicitly fulfilling Azura's prophecy. Or the other champions ofNocturnal, Mephala, and Clavicus Vile we've met, all of whom knew what they were doing and intended to be their champion.

That being said, I think it's perfectly valid to roleplay as a Vestige who takes Molag Bal's words at face value and starts feeling like they might actually be acting as his champion by dominating everything.

RaddlemanNumber7 · October 2019

One of my character's storylines is based around a logic similar to the one you describe. Schemes within schemes.

I found that explicitly making the Vestige an agent of Molag Bal offers a refreshing change of perspective. I've had quite a lot of fun working out the story, and the schemes, setting up my character and his home, and playing the role.

I don't see any problem with this from a lore point of view. I have had no problems with it fitting into the Vestige's in-game experience either.

But, I don't expect that the devs will ever clarify the Vestige's relationship with Molag Bal any further inside the game, either ruling things in or ruling them out. I'm hoping they'll stick to their practice of keeping things vague in order to give players the greatest possible range of opportunities for making up their own backstories, just like this one.

And I'm definitely looking forward to the day we get to confront Meridia, or at least her new champion.

beadabow · October 2019

Daedric Princes are (for the most part) considered "evil" by the general population of Tamriel, with the exception of Meridia and Azura as well as I can remember. This statement is evidenced by the taboos placed upon daedra worship in the various cultures throughout Tamriel. In Morrowind, for example, the Tribunal is the mainstream religion, and daedra worshipers are treated as outcasts, though many would agree that Azura seems to be a benevolent deity and has a strong following.

Molag Bal's intentions are never benevolent, or designed for the intention of furthering the well being of the greater good. Fortunately, his hubris seems to get in his way, and by its nature, prevents the deity from seeing his machinations achieve fruition. Even if the vestige is susceptible to playing the pawn in a grand scheme of Molag Bal's creation, the hubristic nature of Molag Bal's personality will allow even the cleverest of plans to be thwarted by the powers of good.

Aliyavana · October 2019

I think that we will end up teaming up with molag bal to fight meridia in a future dlc. they have been setting up meridia as a big bad.

Aigym_Hlervu · October 2019

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I believe that our character, our Vestige is Molag Bal's Champion and that this will play into the story at some point in the future of the game.

Hello, Lukos! I'm a type of a role-player, as some of my esteemed opponents here on the forums called, a rare one (actually I think I'm alone here who plays games the way I do) and your theory turns out to be true within the concept of role-playing I stick to with only one thing to mention: within this role-playing model it is not just the Vestige who is Molag Bal's Champion, but firstly, it is a Prisoner - a name given to a player within the lore. All the Vestiges who faught Molag Bal in ESO are the Prisoners but since certain game changes not all the Prisoners are such Vestiges.

The Prisoner concept was validated by Sotha Sil during our conversations in his City. That concept is based on the following: in order to be distinguished from an NPC, a PC (a player or the Prisoner as Sil calls us) must apprehend two critical insights. As Sotha Sil said, first, they must face the reality of their imprisonment (to understand that the world is a video game). They must see the determinative walls - the chains of causality that bind them to their course. The second insight states the Prisoner must see the door to their cell (actually a computer and/or its software we use to interact with virtual world). They must gaze through the bars and perceive that which exists beyond causality and beyond time - only then can they escape this video game. Speaking from the lore perspective, according to Sotha Sil there are few heroes like the Prisoners among all those Tamriel inhabitants, but not all Prisoners may become the one who saves the world.

Thus a Prisoner who started his or her travels in 3E 389 and went further on, travels back in time to the ESO time period of 2E 582-583. It becomes clear why your theory turns out to be true, a fact. Our travels started 25 years ago IRL in the Tamriel's year of 3E 389. In 3E 405 some of us became Bal's Champions for the first time by murdering a spellcaster who had incurred Bal's wrath. In 3E 427 we once again served his will at Kora-Dur while banishing Menta Na and at the Dubdilla cave banishing Molag Grunda (whom we meet again in ESO) back to Oblivion. We were his Champions both in 3E 433 and 4E 201. Thus travelling back 750-950 earlier into the Second Era we become his enemy for the first time of our interaction with him. It's an interesting time paradox that is not paradox at all however. The Prisoner being the Nerevarine first slayed Molag Grunda in 3E 427 and met her secondly in ESO in 2E 582 being the Vestige this time. But from her perspective those two meetings change their order in time. This is a part of what I see is meant to be "They must gaze through the bars and perceive that which exists beyond causality. Beyond time."

So, I think you are absolutely right though I explain your ideas a bit differently. From the perspective of a Prisoner our Vestige has already been a Molag Bal's Champion from the very beginning and this also has already happened in the future of the game - in TES II, III, IV and V by this moment. Bal's not a Prisoner, so from his perspective those events are only to come.

Anyway, this is only my point of view, my style of role-playing, I do not convince any traditional role-players with all their headcanon and army of characters to stick to it.

Jaimeh · October 2019

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"One last thing. Why did Molag Bal leave Lyris any possibility of escape?
"Perhaps it was simply arrogance. Perhaps it was all part of his grand scheme. Who can know the logic of a Daedric Prince?
I will call upon you again when the time is right. Farewell, Vestige.""

I always thought this was for plot forwarding reasons, so the Vestige could rescue/bring together again all the Companions (minus Mannimarco) so they could get another shot and redeem themselves. It's a common plot feature in adventure stories.

VaranisArano · October 2019

Jaimeh wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"One last thing. Why did Molag Bal leave Lyris any possibility of escape?
"Perhaps it was simply arrogance. Perhaps it was all part of his grand scheme. Who can know the logic of a Daedric Prince?
I will call upon you again when the time is right. Farewell, Vestige.""

I always thought this was for plot forwarding reasons, so the Vestige could rescue/bring together again all the Companions (minus Mannimarco) so they could get another shot and redeem themselves. It's a common plot feature in adventure stories.

In terms of storyteling and plot, yes, that's exactly what it is. The scriptwriters made him do it, or there would be no plot.

In terms of why Molag Bal does what he does, we can speculate as the Prophet does, but we don't really know. Arrogance? A grand plan yet to be revealed? Bond Villain Stupidity? Failure to read the Evil Overlord List? We dunno.

Jaimeh · October 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"One last thing. Why did Molag Bal leave Lyris any possibility of escape?
"Perhaps it was simply arrogance. Perhaps it was all part of his grand scheme. Who can know the logic of a Daedric Prince?
I will call upon you again when the time is right. Farewell, Vestige.""

I always thought this was for plot forwarding reasons, so the Vestige could rescue/bring together again all the Companions (minus Mannimarco) so they could get another shot and redeem themselves. It's a common plot feature in adventure stories.

In terms of storyteling and plot, yes, that's exactly what it is. The scriptwriters made him do it, or there would be no plot.

In terms of why Molag Bal does what he does, we can speculate as the Prophet does, but we don't really know. Arrogance? A grand plan yet to be revealed? Bond Villain Stupidity? Failure to read the Evil Overlord List? We dunno.

Molag Bal is a little bit of a caricatoure-ish villain in my mind, especially going by his threats during dolmens (he tries so hard at being an evil overlord--I have a inner joke that one of his hobbies is coming up with malicious retorts for his enemies

), so I could picture him making Bond villain-esque fallible decisions, or perhaps he was keeping her for future usefulness/leverage, or something else altogether, and the prophet's plan, combined with the Vestige power, was something he hadn't forseen.

RaddlemanNumber7 · October 2019

This is briefly how I see Molag Bal's scheming:

What dominators like Molag Bal hate the most is disloyalty. The entire soul burst is part of a vindictive scheme to play the traitor Mannimarco. Bal lets Mannimarco run with his little scheme of betrayal, triggering the soul burst, and even getting within sight of the Amulet of Kings, before he finally takes him down. In the end Bal gets what he really wants the most, which is Mannimarco screaming on that electric wrack knowing that Bal has been playing him along all the time.

A side-effect of the soul burst is that Coldharbour and Bal himself become infested with a huge number of highly-Anuic souls and other trash from the Mundus. Bal has to get rid of that lot, or he'll catch an even worse case of Destiny than he actually does. Bal uses the Vestige, the Prophet, Lyris, Tharn and Sai to get that detox done. Bal is inside The Prophet's mind and uses him as the puppet master in this scheme. Bal does everything to make sure it happens, setting up little scenes to make sure the team stays motivated, providing the information, portals and other support they need to get the Amulet, letting them use it on him to end the soul burst, and so they free Bal of all that Anuic clutter.

Job done, Bal then has the opportunity to go on using the Vestige(s) he has made to thwart the other Princes and to keep the 3 banners war running on Tamriel.

From Bal's point of view it's win, win, win, all the way.

LukosCreyden · October 2019

Lot's of great replies and counter-points. Thanks for all the responses!
Whilst my theory may miss the mark, I absolutely think we've not seen the last of Molag Bal in ESO.

Aigym_Hlervu · October 2019

Jaimeh wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"One last thing. Why did Molag Bal leave Lyris any possibility of escape?
"Perhaps it was simply arrogance. Perhaps it was all part of his grand scheme. Who can know the logic of a Daedric Prince?
I will call upon you again when the time is right. Farewell, Vestige.""

I always thought this was for plot forwarding reasons, so the Vestige could rescue/bring together again all the Companions (minus Mannimarco) so they could get another shot and redeem themselves. It's a common plot feature in adventure stories.

It's quite simple, no logic of a Daedra Prince is ever needed here to understand why did Molag Bal leave Lyris any possibility of escape. If I was Molag Bal I'd do absolutely the same thing Bal actually did: I suffer a slave loss, a group of escape slaves splits in two with two of them finally escaping and their rescuer trapped. I know who they are. If I kill Lyris, the Prophet sees it and no new rescue team comes to my place (the Prophet said he could see through Bal's eyes and Bal was aware of it and it filled him with rage), so I won't claim those slaves back. Thus I get only one soul enslaved while the slave so special to me walks somewhere out there. But if I leave her imprisoned, there is a fighting chance to claim those slaves back and even a chance to claim some new ones. So I'd force Lyris to make weapons for me in that Foundry of Woe in retaliation for her murder of my Forgemaster Vaekar, I'd also fragment and lock her memories away in different parts of her prison to keep her from escaping and I'd also dispatch some guards like those Ancient Clannfear and Manifestation of Terror to confront the rescuers at certain abrupt positions while they collect her memories. I'd also took my personal attention to possible rescuers so they would never make it. It was a well designed trap which was finally overcome due to Bal's attention focused on the Prophet and due to our skill and cunning only. That trap's presence gives us the answer to why he did it.

vestahls · October 2019

Although I doubt we'll see it realised in game, given that the writing for TES games becomes less wild and more linear as the years go by, your theory is definitely as it should be, ideally. It's certainly very Morrowind-y.

At one point I came across an interpretation of Molag Bal as basically Nietzschean, and it hit the mark so well in my mind that I consider it canon. It probably IS canon. Domination, (self)overcoming, becoming through adversity, these are both Nietzscean themes and Molag Bal themes, and serve as the main counter-argument to anyone who tries to say he's "the most evil daedra" or "he has nothing positive about him".

It can even be argued he's one of the most beneficial, in his own special way, because you can only really grow by facing and surviving adversity. Revolution, insanity, nightmares, plots etc., these things are either destructive or stale, but domination is all about growth, and it is fair and impartial.

You can even get the vague impression of this dynamic from some of the Dark Anchor "taunts", with some of them being even approving of the Vestige(s), so it's not hard to play into it already in the game as an RPer.

Needless to say, I'm really fond of Bal as a character, so I would especially like it if the story took this turn.

tl;dr: I hope your headcanon becomes canon, OP.

VaranisArano · October 2019

vestahls wrote: »

Although I doubt we'll see it realised in game, given that the writing for TES games becomes less wild and more linear as the years go by, your theory is definitely as it should be, ideally. It's certainly very Morrowind-y.

At one point I came across an interpretation of Molag Bal as basically Nietzschean, and it hit the mark so well in my mind that I consider it canon. It probably IS canon. Domination, (self)overcoming, becoming through adversity, these are both Nietzscean themes and Molag Bal themes, and serve as the main counter-argument to anyone who tries to say he's "the most evil daedra" or "he has nothing positive about him".

It can even be argued he's one of the most beneficial, in his own special way, because you can only really grow by facing and surviving adversity. Revolution, insanity, nightmares, plots etc., these things are either destructive or stale, but domination is all about growth, and it is fair and impartial.

You can even get the vague impression of this dynamic from some of the Dark Anchor "taunts", with some of them being even approving of the Vestige(s), so it's not hard to play into it already in the game as an RPer.

Needless to say, I'm really fond of Bal as a character, so I would especially like it if the story took this turn.

tl;dr: I hope your headcanon becomes canon, OP.

I think its worth noting that that Dunmer faith, which is the closest in TES lore to "overcoming through adversity" in particular the Reclamations versions of the Dunmer faith, regards Molag Bal as a member of the House of Troubles who tries to upset the House bloodlines and ruin the gene pool of the Dunmer.

vestahls · October 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think its worth noting that that Dunmer faith, which is the closest in TES lore to "overcoming through adversity" in particular the Reclamations versions of the Dunmer faith, regards Molag Bal as a member of the House of Troubles who tries to upset the House bloodlines and ruin the gene pool of the Dunmer.

Yeah, he's the Thot daedra.

Wa2p · October 2019

I roleplay one of my characters as his champion knowingly, he agrees to all the quests because it furthers some purpose, reason depending on quest.

However, I have been waiting for Meridia to be a baddie since I finished the base game story the first time.

Proof of some kind of link: "[..]For the moment, your world is spared, but my grand scheme has only begun to unfold. Excellent. Your power shall prove useful in the coming conflicts. The dark machinations of Oblivion are far more complex than anything your mortal senses can comprehend. You've made a great and terrible enemy this day. Your world would have been better off if the Planemeld had succeeded. Had you bowed before me and accepted eternal servitude, I would have protected you. There are worse masters than I. Far worse." and from Meridia: "Your story has only begun. Molag Bal still has plans for you."

One could say that it was foreshadowing for the whole story up to Elswyr since they had a lot of it planned, and Nocturnal or Mephala or Vile being worse "Masters"

But I always thought he was referring to Merdia since she gets super defensive afterword, and redirects to the "mortal scrolls" -- then her whole use of Darin as some weird power proxy without regard, assuming that you do care about him in some capacity. Plus Darin's whole warning in his final letter...

I've theorized in my own wild musings that in her desire to "cleanse the world" it becomes a bit too zealous. Like these mortals need to be controlled and contained. I need to guide them very strictly on what they can and can't do. Since she's typically a "good" daedra, I feel like the change would be subtle and insidious.

I left these mortals after saving them form Coldharbour, they were already in some stupid war, then almost fell to the Triad, then dragons and all these necromancers. Someone has to step in, and I'm better than everyone else for this job of cleansing and keeping this place in positive flow. Road to Hell, good intentions, all of that. (Which does really work for the schemey Bal, being like, 'yo champion, Imma make you forget stuff. Follow these orders, and let me get back at this goody goody for a whole lot of BS she's done.' They are enemies after all.]

Also, many things Bal says at anchors after you finish the main quest maybe foreshadowing? Or he is just being real hopeful...
IE "I forged you in the soulfire of Coldharbour to be my tool. Prove your worth." ; "Good. I grant you permission to strengthen yourself with my minions." ; "Your soul is mine. I own you! Come. Let us play." ; The sacrifices you make are all done in my name. You are and will always be my servant." ; "Your strength is mine. Come. Serve me." ; "Mannimarco's failures are your opportunities. You both shall serve me well."

There are others that are him asking: "The Battlemage has the amulet, but you have true power. Fight for me." ; "The time remaining when you can still refuse me is dwindling."

Even if it's not true, which it probably isn't, there is a lot there to help back up the theory. Could just be me though.

Edit to fix the profanity filter.

idk · October 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think you could roleplay it that way, but I don't think I buy it as a canon explanation, beyond the fact that Molag Bal would like us to believe that he didn't actually get his butt kicked by an empowered mortal.

This. It is doubtful that his plans within plans within plans would have included losing to the vestige as well as losing his long time prized possession of cold harbor. It would not make sense.

VaranisArano · October 2019

Wa2p wrote: »

I roleplay one of my characters as his champion knowingly, he agrees to all the quests because it furthers some purpose, reason depending on quest.

However, I have been waiting for Meridia to be a baddie since I finished the base game story the first time.

Proof of some kind of link: "[..]For the moment, your world is spared, but my grand scheme has only begun to unfold. Excellent. Your power shall prove useful in the coming conflicts. The dark machinations of Oblivion are far more complex than anything your mortal senses can comprehend. You've made a great and terrible enemy this day. Your world would have been better off if the Planemeld had succeeded. Had you bowed before me and accepted eternal servitude, I would have protected you. There are worse masters than I. Far worse." and from Meridia: "Your story has only begun. Molag Bal still has plans for you."

One could say that it was foreshadowing for the whole story up to Elswyr since they had a lot of it planned, and Nocturnal or Mephala or Vile being worse "Masters"

But I always thought he was referring to Merdia since she gets super defensive afterword, and redirects to the "mortal scrolls" -- then her whole use of Darin as some weird power proxy without regard, assuming that you do care about him in some capacity. Plus Darin's whole warning in his final letter...

I've theorized in my own wild musings that in her desire to "cleanse the world" it becomes a bit too zealous. Like these mortals need to be controlled and contained. I need to guide them very strictly on what they can and can't do. Since she's typically a "good" daedra, I feel like the change would be subtle and insidious.

As a player, I'd be delighted to take on Meridia. I've never had too many illusions about her thanks to TES IV Oblivion. She was the one behind Umaril the Unfeathered in the Knights of the Nine DLC and his murders of the priests of the Divines. ESO seems to be doing a good job of subtly playing up her "Good Daedra is only good relative to the Really Bad Daedra" aspects.

Then again, Knights of the Nine is pretty much the "Good is Not Nice" DLC. Just look at Stendarr! He don't mess around if you disrespect him!

I could gush about that DLC for days.

Wa2p · October 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Wa2p wrote: »

snip

As a player, I'd be delighted to take on Meridia. I've never had too many illusions about her thanks to TES IV Oblivion. She was the one behind Umaril the Unfeathered in the Knights of the Nine DLC and his murders of the priests of the Divines. ESO seems to be doing a good job of subtly playing up her "Good Daedra is only good relative to the Really Bad Daedra" aspects.

Then again, Knights of the Nine is pretty much the "Good is Not Nice" DLC. Just look at Stendarr! He don't mess around if you disrespect him! I could gush about that DLC for days.

I would love it, if people believed Wrothgar was a twist. Then this will be a doozy. Also, totally agree, good is not nice, and that would be a fun or kind of cool thing to mess around with in ESO, I think they're doing a pretty decent job in not really defining "good" with the daedra, more: self involved with less harm or more harm to the common mortal. Play that more in game stories!

Dusk_Coven · October 2019

LukosCreyden wrote: »

They are what they are, what sphere they represent. Sheogorath is madness. for example.

At the risk of derailing the thread, is this statement about "sphere they represent" an assumption about the nature of the Daedric Princes?

For example, does Sheogorath have some sort of "sphere of influence" over "madness", or is he simply a combination of powerful entity + nutjob? That is, because he is powerful and meddlesome, he is an influencer who has gained historical recognition. And because of the nature of his interactions (nutjob) he is associated with madness. But he is not, per se, someone who has a fundamental influence and superior command over the aspects of "madness". He's just a nutjob with a lot of power which he uses in a whimsical way.

So, similarly, Molag Bal being the "Lord of Schemes" -- surely he is not godly-superior with respect to Scheming because otherwise he wouldn't have been outplayed by Meridia planting a base in Coldharbour. But in his history of interactions he must clearly have had more than a few brilliant moves to earn recognition as "Lord of Schemes". Which title he hasn't really demonstrated yet, or at least not in the main story.

In order to be recognized as a Schemer, some schemes must actually come to fruition and be recognized as scheming at least in hindsight.
Maybe ZOS was working up to it but with the shift to Murkmire and Elsweyr, it's more likely they are seeing they can't hold attention long enough to tell a long-game story like that while still maintaining the principles of One Tamriel, which is you can jump in at any point.
How are they going to continue the story with Molag Bal now when people can completely skip the main story?