Put A Number On It

kylewwefan · October 2019

Finer Details Of Combat

How much damage do you really need?

The only answer I can seem to get from players is 1,000,000. But seriously, if you have to be figuring out a groups DPS, how do you put a number on it?

Where the heck are these crazy 90k DPS numbers coming from? Ok, some groups are doing it. But is it necessary for completion? Or to even bother trying?

What is the floor? Thats what I want to know. Where could you really start?

Back some time ago it was commonly required 25k DPS for Vanilla Vet Craglorn trials. It could be done with less if mechanics were followed but you would often find players with less DPS also seemed to have problems doing some mechanics. So, having more DPS allows to skip some things, making content easier.

It also eludes to the possibility that many endgame level player are far under even 20k as some content seems nearly impossible with less.

In VAS saint ohms has 100,000,000 million health. Roughly figured out, a player needs about 15k DPS for a quick 15 minute run. That’s a group DPS of 120k give/take
But there’s a catch. Mechanics that cannot be ignored, or DPS through.

15k?

Ok, at vet level; 15k DPS is pretty slow. I think most would agree to that. say you double it to 30k. Now your playing with Fire. But is that enough? Or could you go with less even? What about 20k or 25k? When does real damage and skill start coming in to play?

But it doesn’t work like that. DPS is a game of inches. You go from 15 to 17, to 20, to 22, to 25 etc. Throw some mechanics in and those numbers go all over the place.

90k?

90k happens in an ideal situation on a very special test dummy. No doubt, players that do that will still do quite well on any other number of dummies, but not to that extent.

So Where Does That Leave Us?

Wow! I’m really lacking conviction on this and getting myself lost in my own querry. I guess somewhere in between?

Back in the day

Some time ago 30k was considered really good. It still is imo. Some players would get 40k+ and some few are beyond 50k. It’s that game of inches thing.

3 mil or 6 mil?

Well, everyone used to practice the 3 mil, but then at some time started changing to the 6 mil to measure sustain or e-peen

The Super Dummy

Then along came the Super Dummy! This thing gives you, all major and minor buffs, Major and minor de-buffs, synergies for resources. Basically everything you should have in a very well run trial. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it realistic?

Well, I argued against till I was blue in the face; but it appears the super dummy is the way to go because of the standardization of the buffs and de-buffs.

Now, I think this thing sets us even farther apart from where we want to be; meaning some hit it for 30k and others hit for 100k or so and many in between. It’s a very large gap. I’m not hitting no 100k, but I play with people that do. Are they carrying me? By all means they should be, but no. It’s why I argued against it. You only get numbers like that in an ideal situation. Witch does not usually exist inside of content.

So What Causes Group Wipes? Incomplete

I’ve recently had a string of failed VSS, Vet Crags, VMoL etc.

It’s usually The Mechanics. I play in high DPS trials groups often, but failed mechanics will bring all that to a halt.

For example: No one wants to interrupt the flame spinner bosses. They’re gonna wipe your group. Take the tanks cleansing pad? You can’t figure out conversions? You’re gonna wipe the group. The support has to take a hit here. Can’t hold a couple Atro’s? You can’t keep a will from enrage circle. Keep dying to dragons breath? Guess what happens. You’re gonna wipe the group.

In dungeons I pug with questionable DPS. They’re different. Like getting overran by King Narlimor copies. Or can’t damage the blue tree thing enough and get overran by stranglers in Maerlok. Or getting a dozen Deadroth in BC2. That’s definitely not enough damage issues afaic.

What are we to do?

Is there a happy median in here? Am I just the most unfortunate player ever? Am I just experiencing one extreme to another in game?

Btw, When I play with high level trials group people, you won’t even see mechanics like that in dungeons. Everything is just dead and you race through it other than forced mechanics.

So Put A Number On It Already

Thank you, I will. 30k on both 3 mil and 6 mil. You won’t have any problem with any vet content if with players that hit 30k. This is solid. It’s what the game was built around imo.

What does that convert to on the super dummy? That jumps up to near 50k on the raid dummy for my characters. I imagine many are falling somewhere around here.

That doesn’t necessarily mean It’s good. But good enough. I’ve been on the fence about it. Having a hard time really nailing it down. But I’ve done dungeons with a friend that hits about 30k and I hit about 30k and we smoke everything in the place so fast. It’s all about mechanics at that point. There’s some that you just can’t skip.

In a trial group environment that jumps up significantly. Eight x 30k= 240k group DPS jumps to nearly 400k under ideal circumstances. Let the math wizards figure it out. Would 700k DPS be overkill? Yes. Is it possible they’d still have biG problems with mechanics? Also yes.

It’s like there’s a window or a threshold of a minimum and maximum of where content can be done. There’s mechanics that can’t be ignored. Then some that can be completely skipped.

When would be a good place to stop focusing on more damage and add to survivability? Can you tell clearly what is a one shot mechanic and what could be lived through with a more defensive build?

As a damage dealer role, there’s so much emphasis on adding more damage, that all survivability is foregone. This may be alright and ok for some really good players, but others could really benefit from adding defensive stats maybe.

Here We Go Again

Sorry, feels like I keep coming back to the same issue over and over. It’s a non stop problem in my ESO gaming experience. So many of my fellow gamers push the limits of what they see high end players doing, and get frustrated when it’s not connecting. Progression is halted. Gaming experience is turned sour. There’s got to be a better way to work through this.

Joxer61 · October 2019

someone gets it!!

Nestor · October 2019

The main issue is ZOS keeps uping the DPS needed for new Vet Trials Clears and Achievements. And, that makes sense really. However, the group think for some reason becomes, if you can't do Vet Trial Hard Mode levels of DPS, in any content, then go home.

BNOC · October 2019

DPS numbers are historically based on an bosses enrage timer and wouldn't be met until some way into the patch, as opposed to being met on PTS before it's even released.

I.e.
Boss has 10M health with an enrage timer of 2mins
10 Raiders (7 DPS)
10M / 7 = 1.4M each player in 2mins
1.4M / 120 = 11,666 DPS

The HIGH targets people set now are for score runs (which are essentially unique trial-group defined enrage timers based on existing leaderboard scores) as well as for purely skipping mechanics.

I know it's Solo but think of @Supernatural's VMA last boss clips from time, or any of the guys that were doing it on NB's - They had to hit X DPS or they'd lose X minutes up the top platform and with it like ~4k score (Difference between placing 1st and 15th) - Obviously and it's usually the case, that there was more setup involved in it than just raw DPS and being able to do it wouldn't ultimately dictate completion or failure for the average player but for anyone in that "bracket" or aspiring to be in that "bracket", it was the new minimum requirement.

High DPS does make content easier, there's no doubt, but like in VMA, a lot of setup and other knowledge is crucial as well.

Alidel · October 2019

When I found that 30-40k is enough for most things in eso - I started ignoring meta and creating my own weird builds. Granted, I can't reach 50k on 3-6m dummy or 100k on 21m, but I'm proficient enough for the content I do and I'm having so much more fun like this.

kylewwefan · October 2019

We have to focus on completion before we can work on score. The problems I see is leaders want score ready type group without the skills for completion. It often ends in failure and frustration.

Take for example something a bit simpler like VDSA. Go with a tank, healer, and two 20k DPS.

Been there done that, got the t-shirt. Won’t complete it. Will not pass the seventh round. Witch coincidentally, those bosses have enrage timers. Forego a healer and bring another 20k DPS along, you might have a shot.

Few bosses in game have enrage timers that I can think of. HelRa Warrior has 5 minutes to get from %75 To %25 health before he calls all statues to life. So, 48mil to 16 mil In 5 minutes puts 8 damage dealers at right about 20k DPS each.

But if I recall right, I couldn’t get into a group without 25k. And many of those would fail anyways. To mechanics.

BNOC · October 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

We have to focus on completion before we can work on score. The problems I see is leaders want score ready type group without the skills for completion. It often ends in failure and frustration.

Take for example something a bit simpler like VDSA. Go with a tank, healer, and two 20k DPS.

Been there done that, got the t-shirt. Won’t complete it. Will not pass the seventh round. Witch coincidentally, those bosses have enrage timers. Forego a healer and bring another 20k DPS along, you might have a shot.

Few bosses in game have enrage timers that I can think of. HelRa Warrior has 5 minutes to get from %75 To %25 health before he calls all statues to life. So, 48mil to 16 mil In 5 minutes puts 8 damage dealers at right about 20k DPS each.

But if I recall right, I couldn’t get into a group without 25k. And many of those would fail anyways. To mechanics.

On bosses where people die to lack of mechanical understanding, the higher the static DPS your guys are putting out, the more leeway there are for those mistakes as the time and DPS required (above the requirement, if there's one) will be safely covered by the rest.

The targets people want now for PUG's and lower progression teams is OTT tho.

Sergykid · October 2019

for casual players that do random dungeons, it's enough 5k. I know cuz i carry this kind daily and my group has 10k dps all of them combined. Total group dps 40k while 30k is my own.

Bobby_V_Rockit · October 2019

I just use the lazy man’s dummy (the precursor) and score a handy 30k+ without really doing a whole rotation, so I’m happy with that.

ZeroXFF · October 2019

The absolute minimum requirement for vSS hm on Nahviintaas is 38k, based on an enrage timer. Considering that the mini boss downstairs doesn't just let you stand still and run down your rotation, and you have to move around, can't spend a lot of time in melee range, and you have to stop doing damage to do a dodge roll, heal yourself, or to free the people from pins, the actual requirement is closer to 50k, just so you can maintain the 38k while interrupting your rotation to do mechanics.

And I'm talking about the 50k equivalent on the 3M dummy.

So here you go, that's the minimum requirement if you want to complete the entire game at this time.

ThePedge · October 2019

20k on 6m dummy

kylewwefan · October 2019

20k DPS = 1,200,000 Damage per minute

30k DPS = 1,800,000 Damage per minute

So your looking at 600,000 damage disparity. It’s another 30 seconds added to the marathon. Far as gaming goes, that really shouldn’t make that much difference I would think. So it just takes you a little longer to kill something. Part of the game.

20k DPS is interesting to me because I find many players right about there. And just to get there, they likely have 2 full sets, gold weapons, right mundus, food, jewelry/weapon enchants, rotation, etc. A lot of stuff has to be right to even get 20k DPS.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

The absolute minimum requirement for vSS hm on Nahviintaas is 38k, based on an enrage timer. Considering that the mini boss downstairs doesn't just let you stand still and run down your rotation, and you have to move around, can't spend a lot of time in melee range, and you have to stop doing damage to do a dodge roll, heal yourself, or to free the people from pins, the actual requirement is closer to 50k, just so you can maintain the 38k while interrupting your rotation to do mechanics.

And I'm talking about the 50k equivalent on the 3M dummy.

So here you go, that's the minimum requirement if you want to complete the entire game at this time.

Is it possible that’s one reason there’s Only 36 players in the world with Godslayer achievement?

ZeroXFF · October 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

20k DPS = 1,200,000 Damage per minute

30k DPS = 1,800,000 Damage per minute

So your looking at 600,000 damage disparity. It’s another 30 seconds added to the marathon. Far as gaming goes, that really shouldn’t make that much difference I would think. So it just takes you a little longer to kill something. Part of the game.

20k DPS is interesting to me because I find many players right about there. And just to get there, they likely have 2 full sets, gold weapons, right mundus, food, jewelry/weapon enchants, rotation, etc. A lot of stuff has to be right to even get 20k DPS.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

The absolute minimum requirement for vSS hm on Nahviintaas is 38k, based on an enrage timer. Considering that the mini boss downstairs doesn't just let you stand still and run down your rotation, and you have to move around, can't spend a lot of time in melee range, and you have to stop doing damage to do a dodge roll, heal yourself, or to free the people from pins, the actual requirement is closer to 50k, just so you can maintain the 38k while interrupting your rotation to do mechanics.

And I'm talking about the 50k equivalent on the 3M dummy.

So here you go, that's the minimum requirement if you want to complete the entire game at this time.

Is it possible that’s one reason there’s Only 36 players in the world with Godslayer achievement?

I doubt it. I think the main reason is that doing the last boss while not killing the statues upstairs is extremely difficult, but they only have a very short vulnerability window, so it takes forever to actually get them down if you want to play it safe. And the speedrun timer for Godslayer is also very tight. But there are actually quite a few guilds that completed Naviintaas hm, it's just that not many have been able to do it fast enough or without dying.

By the way, for the groups that did complete Godslayer, that mini boss downstairs is a joke, they are finishing him off before the 2nd pins (puts in perspective how big a jump it is again between the average progression guild that is happy with a completion of the hm and the actual top players). He is just a roadblock for the average progression group that needed a few months to even get so far that they can do the other 2 hard modes there fast enough to get to try Naviintaas hm within a single session.

Iskiab · October 2019

Alidel wrote: »

When I found that 30-40k is enough for most things in eso - I started ignoring meta and creating my own weird builds. Granted, I can't reach 50k on 3-6m dummy or 100k on 21m, but I'm proficient enough for the content I do and I'm having so much more fun like this.

This is a good attitude to have. If you aren’t pushing scores go for 30k and who cares.

There will always be dummy specs that perform better on a dummy then in game. When I did pve trials I remember being frustrated like hell because I was low CPs and having problems breaking 30k. Guild was full of players talking about their 50k dps... blah blah blah.

Anyways, while raiding I noticed I was consistently 15% of the raid’s dps. Optimizing for a dummy is not the same thing as optimizing in game. Just do what works and focus on mechanics, not optimizing dps.

JinMori · October 2019

The dummy is there to standardize, that's it, it's the best thing to eliminate all barriers between solo parses.

Is it realistic? Kinda, even though the 100% major force uptime is not realistic, it is realistic to get 90 k dps on some bosses because some of the buffs that are in a top tier raid are not on the dummy.

Should it be removed? No.

But even if it was completely unrealistic, and has literally all buffs and debuffs at 100% uptime it doesn't matter, because the point of the dummy is not to make an unrealistic parse, it's to standardize all parses so we can see which class performs the best and which the worst.

IonicKai · October 2019

I agree there has been a problem with the elite not letting people in because they don't hit a number on a test dummy however as others have pointed out there can math put up to support that you should bring stronger DPS for higher chance of clear.

To attempt to answer your question I would say 35k+ on a 3 mil or 50k + on the 21 mil is the floor for dlc trials excluding hm. That is the tipping point where the players of the group understand enough about how to play the game to clear the actual damage checks while engaged in mechanics. Anything lower and they will likely not be able to put out the damage required to get to the next step. That said this number assumes that your supports are fairly strong and that the group doesn't make a lot of mistakes as they margin for error dramatically shrinks the longer and more punishing a fight can be.

JinMori · October 2019

IonicKai wrote: »

I agree there has been a problem with the elite not letting people in because they don't hit a number on a test dummy however as others have pointed out there can math put up to support that you should bring stronger DPS for higher chance of clear.

To attempt to answer your question I would say 35k+ on a 3 mil or 50k + on the 21 mil is the floor for dlc trials excluding hm. That is the tipping point where the players of the group understand enough about how to play the game to clear the actual damage checks while engaged in mechanics. Anything lower and they will likely not be able to put out the damage required to get to the next step. That said this number assumes that your supports are fairly strong and that the group doesn't make a lot of mistakes as they margin for error dramatically shrinks the longer and more punishing a fight can be.

I agree with your point, but your second point which is correct, basically invalidates your first, it's not that's it's the big evil elitist not legging people in, it's just that you need at least that dps.

Pelican · October 2019

"You aren't a good DPS if you're pulling a zero"

IonicKai · October 2019

JinMori wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

I agree there has been a problem with the elite not letting people in because they don't hit a number on a test dummy however as others have pointed out there can math put up to support that you should bring stronger DPS for higher chance of clear.

To attempt to answer your question I would say 35k+ on a 3 mil or 50k + on the 21 mil is the floor for dlc trials excluding hm. That is the tipping point where the players of the group understand enough about how to play the game to clear the actual damage checks while engaged in mechanics. Anything lower and they will likely not be able to put out the damage required to get to the next step. That said this number assumes that your supports are fairly strong and that the group doesn't make a lot of mistakes as they margin for error dramatically shrinks the longer and more punishing a fight can be.

I agree with your point, but your second point which is correct, basically invalidates your first, it's not that's it's the big evil elitist not legging people in, it's just that you need at least that dps.

To be clear first point was that too many people say that if you don't hit within 5k of the top parses you aren't in. There are groups where that makes sense since the goal is score pushing but way too many groups think that it is the only way. Example would be requiring everyone be stam hitting 95k+and mag hitting 90k+ as a requirement. For score pushing this is fine but it's well beyond what is required for running the content. There is a minimum skill level required for vet but too many people require close to the top of what's possible and that is the elitist behavior I was referring to.

kathandira · October 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

Finer Details Of Combat

How much damage do you really need?

The only answer I can seem to get from players is 1,000,000. But seriously, if you have to be figuring out a groups DPS, how do you put a number on it?

Where the heck are these crazy 90k DPS numbers coming from? Ok, some groups are doing it. But is it necessary for completion? Or to even bother trying?

What is the floor? Thats what I want to know. Where could you really start?

Back some time ago it was commonly required 25k DPS for Vanilla Vet Craglorn trials. It could be done with less if mechanics were followed but you would often find players with less DPS also seemed to have problems doing some mechanics. So, having more DPS allows to skip some things, making content easier.

It also eludes to the possibility that many endgame level player are far under even 20k as some content seems nearly impossible with less.

In VAS saint ohms has 100,000,000 million health. Roughly figured out, a player needs about 15k DPS for a quick 15 minute run. That’s a group DPS of 120k give/take
But there’s a catch. Mechanics that cannot be ignored, or DPS through.

15k?

Ok, at vet level; 15k DPS is pretty slow. I think most would agree to that. say you double it to 30k. Now your playing with Fire. But is that enough? Or could you go with less even? What about 20k or 25k? When does real damage and skill start coming in to play?

But it doesn’t work like that. DPS is a game of inches. You go from 15 to 17, to 20, to 22, to 25 etc. Throw some mechanics in and those numbers go all over the place.

90k?

90k happens in an ideal situation on a very special test dummy. No doubt, players that do that will still do quite well on any other number of dummies, but not to that extent.

So Where Does That Leave Us?

Wow! I’m really lacking conviction on this and getting myself lost in my own querry. I guess somewhere in between?

Back in the day

Some time ago 30k was considered really good. It still is imo. Some players would get 40k+ and some few are beyond 50k. It’s that game of inches thing.

3 mil or 6 mil?

Well, everyone used to practice the 3 mil, but then at some time started changing to the 6 mil to measure sustain or e-peen

The Super Dummy

Then along came the Super Dummy! This thing gives you, all major and minor buffs, Major and minor de-buffs, synergies for resources. Basically everything you should have in a very well run trial. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it realistic?

Well, I argued against till I was blue in the face; but it appears the super dummy is the way to go because of the standardization of the buffs and de-buffs.

Now, I think this thing sets us even farther apart from where we want to be; meaning some hit it for 30k and others hit for 100k or so and many in between. It’s a very large gap. I’m not hitting no 100k, but I play with people that do. Are they carrying me? By all means they should be, but no. It’s why I argued against it. You only get numbers like that in an ideal situation. Witch does not usually exist inside of content.

So What Causes Group Wipes? Incomplete

I’ve recently had a string of failed VSS, Vet Crags, VMoL etc.

It’s usually The Mechanics. I play in high DPS trials groups often, but failed mechanics will bring all that to a halt.

For example: No one wants to interrupt the flame spinner bosses. They’re gonna wipe your group. Take the tanks cleansing pad? You can’t figure out conversions? You’re gonna wipe the group. The support has to take a hit here. Can’t hold a couple Atro’s? You can’t keep a will from enrage circle. Keep dying to dragons breath? Guess what happens. You’re gonna wipe the group.

In dungeons I pug with questionable DPS. They’re different. Like getting overran by King Narlimor copies. Or can’t damage the blue tree thing enough and get overran by stranglers in Maerlok. Or getting a dozen Deadroth in BC2. That’s definitely not enough damage issues afaic.

What are we to do?

Is there a happy median in here? Am I just the most unfortunate player ever? Am I just experiencing one extreme to another in game?

Btw, When I play with high level trials group people, you won’t even see mechanics like that in dungeons. Everything is just dead and you race through it other than forced mechanics.

So Put A Number On It Already

Thank you, I will. 30k on both 3 mil and 6 mil. You won’t have any problem with any vet content if with players that hit 30k. This is solid. It’s what the game was built around imo.

What does that convert to on the super dummy? That jumps up to near 50k on the raid dummy for my characters. I imagine many are falling somewhere around here.

That doesn’t necessarily mean It’s good. But good enough. I’ve been on the fence about it. Having a hard time really nailing it down. But I’ve done dungeons with a friend that hits about 30k and I hit about 30k and we smoke everything in the place so fast. It’s all about mechanics at that point. There’s some that you just can’t skip.

In a trial group environment that jumps up significantly. Eight x 30k= 240k group DPS jumps to nearly 400k under ideal circumstances. Let the math wizards figure it out. Would 700k DPS be overkill? Yes. Is it possible they’d still have biG problems with mechanics? Also yes.

It’s like there’s a window or a threshold of a minimum and maximum of where content can be done. There’s mechanics that can’t be ignored. Then some that can be completely skipped.

When would be a good place to stop focusing on more damage and add to survivability? Can you tell clearly what is a one shot mechanic and what could be lived through with a more defensive build?

As a damage dealer role, there’s so much emphasis on adding more damage, that all survivability is foregone. This may be alright and ok for some really good players, but others could really benefit from adding defensive stats maybe.

Here We Go Again

Sorry, feels like I keep coming back to the same issue over and over. It’s a non stop problem in my ESO gaming experience. So many of my fellow gamers push the limits of what they see high end players doing, and get frustrated when it’s not connecting. Progression is halted. Gaming experience is turned sour. There’s got to be a better way to work through this.

My view is similar. I like to think the average DPS requirement is roughly 20k on a 3/6 mil dummy to do Vet Content. Hardmode, i'd kick up higher pending on the encounter.

kathandira · October 2019

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just use the lazy man’s dummy (the precursor) and score a handy 30k+ without really doing a whole rotation, so I’m happy with that.

The Precursor is basically a Normal (Non-DLC) Version 1 Boss. As long as you stick to Normal Difficulty, no worries. But don't be fooled in thinking that your DPS in Vet Content will also be 30k+.

This is why people use the 3/6 Million HP dummies. They have Resistance that needs to be overcome, just like Vet bosses.

p00tx · October 2019

@kylewwefan

The content you mentioned having difficulty with isn't high level content. It is now mid level PvE content. The 90k dps that you mentioned isn't needed to complete MoL or vSS or ANY of the Craglorns. That can be done easily by players who can hit 40k minimum on the 3m, and with a bit more of a struggle by those with lower dps. The 90k+ bit of content are the hardmodes and the achievement runs, which a lot of players have been pushing lately now that damage is so much more easily accessible by the average player. You've probably seen a lot more silver skins and Immortal Redeemers lately? Bringers of Light? Dromathra Destroyers and Extinguisher of Flames? 30-40k dps can't touch any of that content (Barring maybe DD or IR in a really well practiced group, since people did it back when high end dmg averages were around 35-40k, but that was pretty rare) without a considerable carry and without being a huge detriment to the rest of the group.

**Before PC folks skewer me, we don't have CmX logs on Xbox, so we use dummy parses to determine someone's dps capability before they're cleared to raid. I know the actual dps output is significantly lower in actual raid.

El_Borracho · October 2019

Been saying it for a while. Give me a group that hits 30K and knows mechanics over a group that hits 40-50K that does not. Ideally, you'd want the high DPS and knowledge of the trial, but that seems to be less frequent outside of the guild run setting. Burning down a stationary dummy that doesn't hit back does nothing to prepare your for anything VMOL throws at you. 100K DPS parses don't mean much when you're dead because you were on the wrong side of the room in the twins.

Bobby_V_Rockit · October 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just use the lazy man’s dummy (the precursor) and score a handy 30k+ without really doing a whole rotation, so I’m happy with that.

The Precursor is basically a Normal (Non-DLC) Version 1 Boss. As long as you stick to Normal Difficulty, no worries. But don't be fooled in thinking that your DPS in Vet Content will also be 30k+.

This is why people use the 3/6 Million HP dummies. They have Resistance that needs to be overcome, just like Vet bosses.

Oof, but those take like 10 minutes to kill, so long and boring

ZeroXFF · October 2019

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just use the lazy man’s dummy (the precursor) and score a handy 30k+ without really doing a whole rotation, so I’m happy with that.

The Precursor is basically a Normal (Non-DLC) Version 1 Boss. As long as you stick to Normal Difficulty, no worries. But don't be fooled in thinking that your DPS in Vet Content will also be 30k+.

This is why people use the 3/6 Million HP dummies. They have Resistance that needs to be overcome, just like Vet bosses.

Oof, but those take like 10 minutes to kill, so long and boring

If your DPS is indeed 30k, the 3M dummy will die in 1 min 40s.

mague · October 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

The only answer I can seem to get from players is 1,000,000. But seriously, if you have to be figuring out a groups DPS, how do you put a number on it?

I am playing now for like 15 years. Raiding, set farming, pulling guildies through the harder quest content. I remember days without sets, when all was about the fun and finishing the content...

DPS was never enough for the DPS crowd. Now we even have different achievements for fast and flawless and this supports the DPS-mania. And anyone wants to play in the pro camp ofc. This wont change ever.

The answer about the number is: any. All dps checks and single fail mechanics belong exclusively and only into the achievement runs starting with HM. Any other content up to veteran should not have such limitations. This rather old-school tank'n spank approach is better when it is about the story-telling or set farming.

Shantu · October 2019

35k on a 3/6 mil, 60k on a trial dummy. That's pretty much the baseline for our vet progression group. But equally important, if not more so, is the willingness and ability to understand trial mechanics and group dynamics. Insistence on being a lone wolf doing your own thing will get you kicked quicker than mediocre DSP.

Bobby_V_Rockit · October 2019

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just use the lazy man’s dummy (the precursor) and score a handy 30k+ without really doing a whole rotation, so I’m happy with that.

The Precursor is basically a Normal (Non-DLC) Version 1 Boss. As long as you stick to Normal Difficulty, no worries. But don't be fooled in thinking that your DPS in Vet Content will also be 30k+.

This is why people use the 3/6 Million HP dummies. They have Resistance that needs to be overcome, just like Vet bosses.

Oof, but those take like 10 minutes to kill, so long and boring

If your DPS is indeed 30k, the 3M dummy will die in 1 min 40s.

Math checks out

kylewwefan · October 2019

I’ll stand by what I said. Even new content that’s come out Isn’t requiring any crazy high damage increases to complete it. In fact many mechanics I’ve seen have a break where bosses stop taking damage.

Bad Real World example:

There’s a Set of stop lights near where I live. If you speed through one, the other will turn red. In a 1/8 mile distance. 25 mph zone. Gets people to slow down all the time. Maybe if you go 70 mph through, you can beat them both. Now your going 70 mph in a 25 mph zone and if you get caught you’re going to jail and get your car impounded.

It’s no secret, everyone knows it’s there. But the cops get people doing dumb stuff every day. Trying to push the limits.

It’s a forced mechanic.

Solo or Group Damage

Now in this game, dungeons are a bit different than trials. You bring your damage with you and you get buffed up and mobs and bosses de-buffed to raise your damage. Group composition also comes into play. Expect far less support in dungeons.

Support roles are very important. They need to be coordinated. We have them get specific sets to buff us up.

So when you as a DPS see the Olorime circle straight on top the tank the whole time, never hear a single warhorn, or worse you hear 3 of them go off at the exact same time. Every time. Know your support needs to get their head on straight.

A meat shield and a healbot May very well be necessary for content, but they can provide so much more when well organized.

Coordinated Ultimates

Alkosh is up. Infused crusher applied. Major slayer is up. Major/minor fracture and breech. Warhorn. The boss just became vulnerable again. This is Burn time. You got to capitalize on this.

Your raid lead knows when to call out for certain ultimates. She’s watching the boss health bar to know when to build Ult and hold it or when to drop it.

It doesn’t matter how much damage you have, if the coordination is messed up things get Very difficult.

With enough experience players will know when to drop Ult and when to sit on it. There is a strategy going on in content that is a bit different from straight nuke. It’s when to strike at the right time. Often, waiting a few seconds Could make a Significant difference.

Identify The Problem

In order to progress, you have got to figure out what is going wrong. And develop a strategy to fix it. Record it and watch it back if you have to. Sounds like fun right? Not. It’s what top groups do.

While your at it maybe you could figure out what your buff times are. Like if you only have major force for %20 of the fight, is it really worth building so much into Crit? I’m sure the math wizards could figure the break even spot.

Is it not enough damage? Group not coordinated? Stacking or enraged ads? Mechanics?

Develop a Solution

For us, popping a barrier at the right time helped tremendously. That’s right. Defensive Ult. Getting support to group up the right ads helps. Pop another barrier as needed. And nuke the right ad and save an Ult for the other.

Take on the right targets first. Prioritize what must go and what next. Break up the group if you have to. You’ve got to come up with some kind of strategy to get this done.

The damage is there, but the turbo button need to be controlled. Coordination is a must in group activity. At least while you’re learning it. Maybe some are fortunate enough to get into groups that can do this stuff blindfolded, but none that I’ve ever been in. You have to learn it and earn it from beginning to end.

Back to this Damage Thing

By now it should be clear that you can’t just out DPS everything in game. While it is important to have an entry level, I don’t think it’s nearly as high as many would have us believe. And there are many variables that will change things.

Learn the mechanics. Develop strategy’s and solutions to problems.

There are indeed entry level type of damage that many aren’t at. You can’t expect someone that is at entry level to carry your bum a$$ through. So get good. It’s not crazy hard. If you can get up to say 20k. And pair up with someone around there or better; any base game vet dungeon should be easy enough. With enough Good support, you could probably do hardmodes.

And if you’re just not gonna get there anytime soon, just do normal. I do normal stuff all the time. Nothing wrong with it.

Sahidom · October 2019

@kylewwefan You get it and you've stated many reasons why many players don't bother trying trials.

p00tx · October 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

I’ll stand by what I said. Even new content that’s come out Isn’t requiring any crazy high damage increases to complete it. In fact many mechanics I’ve seen have a break where bosses stop taking damage.

Bad Real World example:

There’s a Set of stop lights near where I live. If you speed through one, the other will turn red. In a 1/8 mile distance. 25 mph zone. Gets people to slow down all the time. Maybe if you go 70 mph through, you can beat them both. Now your going 70 mph in a 25 mph zone and if you get caught you’re going to jail and get your car impounded.

It’s no secret, everyone knows it’s there. But the cops get people doing dumb stuff every day. Trying to push the limits.

It’s a forced mechanic.

Solo or Group Damage

Now in this game, dungeons are a bit different than trials. You bring your damage with you and you get buffed up and mobs and bosses de-buffed to raise your damage. Group composition also comes into play. Expect far less support in dungeons.

Support roles are very important. They need to be coordinated. We have them get specific sets to buff us up.

So when you as a DPS see the Olorime circle straight on top the tank the whole time, never hear a single warhorn, or worse you hear 3 of them go off at the exact same time. Every time. Know your support needs to get their head on straight.

A meat shield and a healbot May very well be necessary for content, but they can provide so much more when well organized.

Coordinated Ultimates

Alkosh is up. Infused crusher applied. Major slayer is up. Major/minor fracture and breech. Warhorn. The boss just became vulnerable again. This is Burn time. You got to capitalize on this.

Your raid lead knows when to call out for certain ultimates. She’s watching the boss health bar to know when to build Ult and hold it or when to drop it.

It doesn’t matter how much damage you have, if the coordination is messed up things get Very difficult.

With enough experience players will know when to drop Ult and when to sit on it. There is a strategy going on in content that is a bit different from straight nuke. It’s when to strike at the right time. Often, waiting a few seconds Could make a Significant difference.

Identify The Problem

In order to progress, you have got to figure out what is going wrong. And develop a strategy to fix it. Record it and watch it back if you have to. Sounds like fun right? Not. It’s what top groups do.

While your at it maybe you could figure out what your buff times are. Like if you only have major force for %20 of the fight, is it really worth building so much into Crit? I’m sure the math wizards could figure the break even spot.

Is it not enough damage? Group not coordinated? Stacking or enraged ads? Mechanics?

Develop a Solution

For us, popping a barrier at the right time helped tremendously. That’s right. Defensive Ult. Getting support to group up the right ads helps. Pop another barrier as needed. And nuke the right ad and save an Ult for the other.

Take on the right targets first. Prioritize what must go and what next. Break up the group if you have to. You’ve got to come up with some kind of strategy to get this done.

The damage is there, but the turbo button need to be controlled. Coordination is a must in group activity. At least while you’re learning it. Maybe some are fortunate enough to get into groups that can do this stuff blindfolded, but none that I’ve ever been in. You have to learn it and earn it from beginning to end.

Back to this Damage Thing

By now it should be clear that you can’t just out DPS everything in game. While it is important to have an entry level, I don’t think it’s nearly as high as many would have us believe. And there are many variables that will change things.

Learn the mechanics. Develop strategy’s and solutions to problems.

There are indeed entry level type of damage that many aren’t at. You can’t expect someone that is at entry level to carry your bum a$$ through. So get good. It’s not crazy hard. If you can get up to say 20k. And pair up with someone around there or better; any base game vet dungeon should be easy enough. With enough Good support, you could probably do hardmodes.

And if you’re just not gonna get there anytime soon, just do normal. I do normal stuff all the time. Nothing wrong with it.

Why can't we have both competent dps AND competent support, with competency being measured by the player's ability to use the tools available to output their highest potential damage/heals/skill modifiers?