Some suggestions for Magicka Nightblade skills overhaul

BlissfulDeluge · October 2019

Welcome, reader, and thank you for checking out this thread.

In the hopes that this will not devolve into a dumpster fire of incivility, I would first refer you to the forum community rules, that which I believe it is the duty of every forum denizen to at the very least briefly go through, in order to maintain a hospitable and welcoming environment. Feedback is always welcome, but lay out your arguments for why you agree or disagree below in a constructive and non-hostile manner.

Nightblades have, in comparison to other classes, some of the hardest rotations to master, some of the worst passives, and some of the worst skills I have seen in my almost four years of playing. To establish some ground to stand on I am going to tell you that I have, during this time, mained a Magicka Nightblade, tackling some of the more difficult content in the game, included, but not limited to all the HMs for veteran trials including the Sunspire dragons, all the dungeon challenger achievements up to and including Scalebreaker, and a host of other content. I have seen the glimmers of hope in the Morrowind patch (v3.0.5), and the Nightblade's rise during Summerset (v4.0.5). From there I have seen this class, Magicka Nightblades in particular, spiral way out of control. Stamina Nightblades do well, really well, but Magicka Nightblades do not.

These changes have been justified because of PvP, and because of the ill-informed desire to keep PvE and PvP, as well as the balance thereof united. Because of this, because of players' inability to use detection potions easily bring Nightblades out of stealth, PvPers have shrieked at this class to the point where a wet noodle has more mass to it than the Nightblade's toolset.

I will provide an example of this, at first, Death Stroke and its morphs stunned a target on cast. As did Teleport Strike. The stun was removed from the latter and changed with the former. All of sudden, you needed 120 ultimate to stun with Incapacitating Strike. People were still upset.They demanded more nerfs, so the Incap strike was given Reave, for sustain, and lost the stun. Now it silences players, at 120 ultimate, and it has a .4 second cast time that can easily be avoided. Soul Harvest, on the other hand? It has remained inferior.

As is, in PvP Nightblades need to cast a gap closer. then a stun, then they can use Death Stroke, then they can pull off their combo and hope to burst them down. By the time you can begin bursting, three global cooldowns (GCDs) have passed by, during which any competent player is able to break free and dodge roll to avoid the Death Stroke being cast at the speed of my uncle's motorized wheelchair.In short? All but the most skilled Nightblade mains, especially Magicka Nightblade mains, have given up on the class. While the PvP community has gotten things their way, the PvE community has been given the cold shoulder. Why is this acceptable?

Balancing this class, particularly Magicka Nightblades, will take many adjustments to undo the headache it has been turned into, but I do have some suggestions to revert and rebalance the skills.

There are four skills in particular that irk me, these are as follows:

Cripple, and its morphs
Dark Cloak (Shadow Cloak morph)
Path of Darkness, and its morphs
Dark Vigor (passive skill)

DARK VIGOR

Let us have a look at Dark Vigor, first of all. With two points invested, this skill gives you a 3% multiplicative health bonus for every Shadow ability slotted. This skill used to require slotting the same ability on both bars, and was later changed to balance out with other Shadow abilities. However it still dictates having Shadow abilities slotted, much like how every other Nightblade passive demands the slotting of x amounts of abilities for y value of buff. In fact, Nightblades and Wardens have the highest amount of passives that require slotting more abilities for a greater effect, three in total if not counting passives that require slotting just one ability from the associated skill line. Comparatively, Dragonknights have one (Elder Dragon), Templars have none, Necromancers have two (Death Knell and Health Avarice) and Sorcerers have a very unique passive that increases their damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted (Expert Mage).

While this is horribly balanced, let's go back to Dark Vigor. 3% health per Shadow ability slotted, and for your health pool to even out on both bars, you need at least one Shadow ability slotted on each one. This dictates how your bar setup will look to take advantage of the passives. MEANWHILE, Necromancers have a very nice health buff passive skill called Last Gasp, which gives... 1250 HEALTH. AND IT DOESN'T REQUIRE SLOTTING A DAMNED THING!

My point is, pls make Dark Vigor comparable to Last Gasp, plsnthnx.

CRIPPLE (and its morphs)

Moving on to Cripple, this line is under the skill line Siphoning. Siphoning implies to draw power from something else, and empowering yourself with it. That was the Nightblade's main shtick. No self-heals, you gotta steal health from your enemies to heal yourself. Then this bomb was dropped in the PTS Patch Notes for v5.0.0:

"Oh, my, Nightblades have too many sources of Major Expedition, let's remove the most reasonable one that fits its niche, haha!"

Kindly remove Major Expedition from Path of Darkness, and reintroduce it to Cripple and its morphs, as this will maintain the feel of the Nightblade's "siphoning" gimmick. Thnx.

SHADOW CLOAK (and its morphs)

Shadow Cloak is a very interesting ability in that it is the only ability to give players the option to stealth at will. However, Dark Cloak has become a self-healing option in recent iterations of the game. It also provides Minor Protection, which is a very powerful buff. That said, Magicka Nightblades lack any proper self-heal. As such, I would suggest removing the Minor Protection buff, and turning Dark Cloak into a self-heal healing 11% per second for three seconds (as one past iteration did). This would be comparable to the Sorcerer's Clannfear, the Warden's Arctic Wind and the Dragonknight's Dragon Blood. This will give players the option to either pick the stealth option, which in PvP will let players slip away to lick their wounds, or an outright self-heal, which as I have said is comparable to other percentage-based self healing abilities.

PATH OF DARKNESS (and its morphs)

So assuming these changes were to be implemented, Path of Darkness just lost its Major Expedition. What does it get? What would its use be? My suggestion is simple; give Path of Darkness the Minor Protection morph. This will improve the quality of life for NB healers, and make the ability into a defensive AoE comparable to Circle of Protection and its morphs, or Bone Totem and its morphs.

To summarize

Nightblades, especially Magicka Nightblades, are in an awful spot, and I think they ought to be pulled out. These suggestions for changes aren't going to resolve all the Nightblade's problems, they aren't infallible. They're open to scrutiny and to critique, and while I think you might agree, dear reader, that these changes would be nothing short of homogenization, that is where Zenimax is going.

And honestly, with the difficulty of playing Nightblades and its *** passives, between that and homogenization, I much prefer the latter.

Thank you for reading.

Firebrand10 · October 2019

Agreed. Also remove the cast time on Soul Havrest and Incap. And remove the travel time from Bow, thanks.

Czekoludek · October 2019

These changes are good for start. When you see amount of major/minor buffs that NB lost in last year, you can see how unfair the nerfs were. They destroy not only our utility (for which changes in your post would do a lot of good) but also our damage and healing. Any good changes since Summerset were only for NB tanks. There is no reason why we don't have at least half templars snare potential, half warden buffs in our toolkit or just a good single target damage (our dps is one of the lowest, with hard rotation and no group utility except crit passive that Nb tank can provide to the group)

GhostofDatthaw · October 2019

The removal of cripple major exp was a huge nerf when it comes to bar space because we are already hamstrung by all the stated x skill on both bars for passives. Now I need to slot rat, which imo is a cheap way to push psijic but that's neither here or there. I slot rat for speed I still need a siphon and a shadow skill on my back bar just to even out passives. I'm tied already to 3 skills I absolutely need from a specific line

Iskiab · October 2019

Class does need a rework but from a pvp perspective people need to realize NBs are a counter to glass canon ranged specs.

Most complaints stem from glass canon ranged players getting hard countered. Right now what we have is NBs being overnerfed and a huge amount of ranged burst specs trying to dot and run around trees. The nerf requests for cloak are actually buff requests by noobs playing noob specs.

They’ve nerfed NBs and buffed dots. The results weren’t pretty, most people hate this meta.

PvP is like an ecosystem of players countering each other. The problem right now is an imbalance of playstyles where some are just better than others, and the game is moving to imbalance it more.

GhostofDatthaw · October 2019

Also what people need to understand is that magnb does not have the upfront burst like stamnb did. The only thing that gives magnb upfront burst is caluurians and I feel it's very unfair to balance and form opinions on a class based on one specific set.

Royalthought · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Class does need a rework but from a pvp perspective people need to realize NBs are a counter to glass canon ranged specs.

Most complaints stem from glass canon ranged players getting hard countered. Right now what we have is NBs being overnerfed and a huge amount of ranged burst specs trying to dot and run around trees. The nerf requests for cloak are actually buff requests by noobs playing noob specs.

They’ve nerfed NBs and buffed dots. The results weren’t pretty, most people hate this meta.

PvP is like an ecosystem of players countering each other. The problem right now is an imbalance of playstyles where some are just better than others, and the game is moving to imbalance it more.

Tbh, nightblades arent a hard counter to anything. The difference is the class is more so forced to selectively focus squishy targets because solid builds exceed them in damage and survivability.

The class has been nerfed to the point that it flat out lacks in all combat scenarios and it's losing fights at high levels. (Better players can still mash potatoes ofc)

The people complaining about cloak, are the same that got it nerfed to be disadvantaged in fights. They simply want to prevent nightblades from escaping those losing fights. The "cloak rework" they want honestly is a nail in the coffin.

J2JMC · October 2019

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideas in terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

Royalthought · October 2019

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

J2JMC · October 2019

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

Major ward is approximately 8% of your resistances. Assuming my suggested changes to dark vigor went through as well, you'd be exchanging 6 seconds of an 8% resistance buff for a 28 second X% resistance buff. Even if that resistance buff was only 4% (and I really don't think it should be higher than that) that's a massive buff imo since it ignores the armor cap and last 22 seconds longer. Honestly, I'd prefer it was a damage increase instead of a resistance increase, but I tried to keep the theme of dark vigor.

That being said, nightblades having a hard time accessing resistances should be a class weakness. If classes have actual weaknesses, we can justify making them stronger in what they're good at.

Daddysadface · October 2019

Cry Louder! Zos still has a smile saying, We only gave you exactly what the community asked for..

Now when the question "Hey do we want a NB for the last DPS" the only response is a baby crying in the background while the women on discord cringe with a feeling of violation. Then the response comes... "Sorry Filled=\ And so the Mblade looks at his monkey, and he kicks him, he freaken kicks him as hard as he can across Grahtwood. He then puts his head down, a tear swells in his eyes, he inputs the magical letters to meditate on what just happened /kneelpray. With people in joy and laughter all around him, alone he is silent, he has given up. His gold bloodthirsty jewls mean nothing now, his staff only a weight on his back, his cloth armor, beautiful and perfected. In this moment he decides to end it all. He holds alt, this is the first step in the magical silence prayer, and with his heart pulsing, tears now falling onto his lap, his mind is finally silent, the only thought is regret. And with the one thought still screaming regret, regret, regret, he pushes the saddest finger on F4. The air has left his body, sound is now fading into the distance, darkness takes over the light, his eyes close with the last tears still glistening on his cheeks. It is over. He is defeated, not by sword, nor bow, but by sadness, by his earnests attempts at being the best, he has found himself abandoned in darkness only to be remembered on the Toon select screen under a sorc and necro and a level 4 inventory toon.

This is the current "power fantasy" of playing a Night Blade. An Abandoned class, by player and developer as they keep clawing out his skills, tearing his abilities to pieces. R.I.P Assassin, you weren't hated because your were bad, only because you outclassed everyone else and beat them at their own game.

May you live forever in our memories, you will be missed by those that loved you, and most of all, by those who were skilled enough to make you the best class in game in both pvp and pve. May the shadows give you comfort as your eternal resting place. Let us have a moment of silence for our fallen brothers and sisters as we remember their slot in our next vTrial.

Royalthought · October 2019

J2JMC wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

Major ward is approximately 8% of your resistances. Assuming my suggested changes to dark vigor went through as well, you'd be exchanging 6 seconds of an 8% resistance buff for a 28 second X% resistance buff. Even if that resistance buff was only 4% (and I really don't think it should be higher than that) that's a massive buff imo since it ignores the armor cap and last 22 seconds longer. Honestly, I'd prefer it was a damage increase instead of a resistance increase, but I tried to keep the theme of dark vigor.

That being said, nightblades having a hard time accessing resistances should be a class weakness. If classes have actual weaknesses, we can justify making them stronger in what they're good at.

Nightblades have plenty of weaknesses. They lack strengths.

They aren’t the best at anything combat wise. Viewing the buffs other classes have gotten were without drawbacks. It’s interesting hearing different viewpoints for improvements. That’s a good thing. But I’d be careful giving a class that currently excels at nothing more disadvantages.

J2JMC · October 2019

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

Major ward is approximately 8% of your resistances. Assuming my suggested changes to dark vigor went through as well, you'd be exchanging 6 seconds of an 8% resistance buff for a 28 second X% resistance buff. Even if that resistance buff was only 4% (and I really don't think it should be higher than that) that's a massive buff imo since it ignores the armor cap and last 22 seconds longer. Honestly, I'd prefer it was a damage increase instead of a resistance increase, but I tried to keep the theme of dark vigor.

That being said, nightblades having a hard time accessing resistances should be a class weakness. If classes have actual weaknesses, we can justify making them stronger in what they're good at.

Nightblades have plenty of weaknesses. They lack strengths.

They aren’t the best at anything combat wise. Viewing the buffs other classes have gotten were without drawbacks. It’s interesting hearing different viewpoints for improvements. That’s a good thing. But I’d be careful giving a class that currently excels at nothing more disadvantages.

The particular thing I addressed is already a disadvantage for nightblades. In it's current iteration, the only in class way for a nb to gain the major resistance buffs is to use a shadow skill every 6 seconds if they are not wearing heavy armor. That wouldn't change with any of my suggestions. And I'm personally fine with that being a weakness, provided our damage and deception abilities are allowed to be sufficiently strong.

And if you are using heavy armor, my suggestions are a straight buff imo. You could either use reapers mark for the passive which is free, or you could use mirage which also gives the minor version of the buff.

BlissfulDeluge · October 2019

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideas in terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

The closest thing we have to the Shadow skill line debuffing enemies is the Minor Maim of Summon Shade, which... yeah, I agree it were something else, since most tanks run Talons/Low Slash. I wish it would give Minor Vulnerability, like Teleport Strike (and Growing Swarm next patch) does. On the topic of passives, though, as others have said in this thread I think the NB is too reliant on slotting multiple abilities from its skill lines to get any value out of them.

I agree with your idea of reorganizing the Nightblade skills, though. Why Blur is not a Shadow skill is beyond me, though I think Mark fits the Assassination idea. Personally I'd only want to swap Veiled Strike with Blur.

When it comes to Dark Cloak (or Shadow Cloak in general), if it were up to me I'd make Dark Cloak both stealth you and give you a burst heal on-par with, or close to Breath of Life (with an appropriate resource cost, of course), and Shadowy Disguise both stealth you and make all your attacks critically strike for x amount of seconds (5, at max, imo). That way PvPers (and PvEers) could have a choice between either using it as a defensive skill to heal yourself and slip away, or as a way to power you up as you prepare to strike. Activating Shadow Cloak and its morph does give you the all too short Major Ward/Resolve buff for six seconds, though, so imo defensive buffs is not it's issue.

Daddysadface wrote: »

Cry Louder! Zos still has a smile saying, We only gave you exactly what the community asked for..

Now when the question "Hey do we want a NB for the last DPS" the only response is a baby crying in the background while the women on discord cringe with a feeling of violation. Then the response comes... "Sorry Filled=\ And so the Mblade looks at his monkey, and he kicks him, he freaken kicks him as hard as he can across Grahtwood. He then puts his head down, a tear swells in his eyes, he inputs the magical letters to meditate on what just happened /kneelpray. With people in joy and laughter all around him, alone he is silent, he has given up. His gold bloodthirsty jewls mean nothing now, his staff only a weight on his back, his cloth armor, beautiful and perfected. In this moment he decides to end it all. He holds alt, this is the first step in the magical silence prayer, and with his heart pulsing, tears now falling onto his lap, his mind is finally silent, the only thought is regret. And with the one thought still screaming regret, regret, regret, he pushes the saddest finger on F4. The air has left his body, sound is now fading into the distance, darkness takes over the light, his eyes close with the last tears still glistening on his cheeks. It is over. He is defeated, not by sword, nor bow, but by sadness, by his earnests attempts at being the best, he has found himself abandoned in darkness only to be remembered on the Toon select screen under a sorc and necro and a level 4 inventory toon.

This is the current "power fantasy" of playing a Night Blade. An Abandoned class, by player and developer as they keep clawing out his skills, tearing his abilities to pieces. R.I.P Assassin, you weren't hated because your were bad, only because you outclassed everyone else and beat them at their own game.

May you live forever in our memories, you will be missed by those that loved you, and most of all, by those who were skilled enough to make you the best class in game in both pvp and pve. May the shadows give you comfort as your eternal resting place. Let us have a moment of silence for our fallen brothers and sisters as we remember their slot in our next vTrial.

This is the most heart-wrenching thing I have ever read on these forums. It hurts because it's true.

WTB Class Change Tokens for 15k Crowns

BlissfulDeluge · October 2019

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

I agree with the poor uptime of Shadow Barrier passive. Imo the best idea is to not make it rely on heavy armor, and give it a duration on-par with the fire-and-forget abilities other classes have (20 seconds).

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · October 2019

I'm going to put in yet another plug for Concealed Weapon applying a 6-second Minor Breach to the target.

Iskiab · October 2019

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

Major ward is approximately 8% of your resistances. Assuming my suggested changes to dark vigor went through as well, you'd be exchanging 6 seconds of an 8% resistance buff for a 28 second X% resistance buff. Even if that resistance buff was only 4% (and I really don't think it should be higher than that) that's a massive buff imo since it ignores the armor cap and last 22 seconds longer. Honestly, I'd prefer it was a damage increase instead of a resistance increase, but I tried to keep the theme of dark vigor.

That being said, nightblades having a hard time accessing resistances should be a class weakness. If classes have actual weaknesses, we can justify making them stronger in what they're good at.

Nightblades have plenty of weaknesses. They lack strengths.

They aren’t the best at anything combat wise. Viewing the buffs other classes have gotten were without drawbacks. It’s interesting hearing different viewpoints for improvements. That’s a good thing. But I’d be careful giving a class that currently excels at nothing more disadvantages.

Well there are some small advantages for being a NB:
1. Highest possible mitigation in game
2. Damage boost from cloak

One was good but if it isn’t backed up by self healing then it has limited benefit outside pve tanks. As a pvp healer it used to be enough but burst is up so the class doesn’t have enough mitigation and self healing to capitalize on the advantage

Two is the reason I think NB abilities are underwhelming. I have a hunch the devs looked at NB burst/damage and intentionally keep it down to stop ganking being able to global people. Whenever there’s anything close to a NB buff on PTS old snipe cloak videos are always linked for example. If the class is being balanced around that burst it’d be best to get rid of that passive entirely.

Royalthought · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

Major ward is approximately 8% of your resistances. Assuming my suggested changes to dark vigor went through as well, you'd be exchanging 6 seconds of an 8% resistance buff for a 28 second X% resistance buff. Even if that resistance buff was only 4% (and I really don't think it should be higher than that) that's a massive buff imo since it ignores the armor cap and last 22 seconds longer. Honestly, I'd prefer it was a damage increase instead of a resistance increase, but I tried to keep the theme of dark vigor.

That being said, nightblades having a hard time accessing resistances should be a class weakness. If classes have actual weaknesses, we can justify making them stronger in what they're good at.

Nightblades have plenty of weaknesses. They lack strengths.

They aren’t the best at anything combat wise. Viewing the buffs other classes have gotten were without drawbacks. It’s interesting hearing different viewpoints for improvements. That’s a good thing. But I’d be careful giving a class that currently excels at nothing more disadvantages.

Well there are some small advantages for being a NB:
1. Highest possible mitigation in game
2. Damage boost from cloak

One was good but if it isn’t backed up by self healing then it has limited benefit outside pve tanks. As a pvp healer it used to be enough but burst is up so the class doesn’t have enough mitigation and self healing to capitalize on the advantage

Two is the reason I think NB abilities are underwhelming. I have a hunch the devs looked at NB burst/damage and intentionally keep it down to stop ganking being able to global people. Whenever there’s anything close to a NB buff on PTS old snipe cloak videos are always linked for example. If the class is being balanced around that burst it’d be best to get rid of that passive entirely.

In terms of highest mitigation in the game, what are you basing that claim on? I ask because I personally have some interesting mitigation setups in other classes is like to compare that to.

In terms of holding a class back due to ganking than we already know it's a failed approach. Ganking isn't a nightblade thing. All classes can do it.

Iskiab · October 2019

Royalthought wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

Major ward is approximately 8% of your resistances. Assuming my suggested changes to dark vigor went through as well, you'd be exchanging 6 seconds of an 8% resistance buff for a 28 second X% resistance buff. Even if that resistance buff was only 4% (and I really don't think it should be higher than that) that's a massive buff imo since it ignores the armor cap and last 22 seconds longer. Honestly, I'd prefer it was a damage increase instead of a resistance increase, but I tried to keep the theme of dark vigor.

That being said, nightblades having a hard time accessing resistances should be a class weakness. If classes have actual weaknesses, we can justify making them stronger in what they're good at.

Nightblades have plenty of weaknesses. They lack strengths.

They aren’t the best at anything combat wise. Viewing the buffs other classes have gotten were without drawbacks. It’s interesting hearing different viewpoints for improvements. That’s a good thing. But I’d be careful giving a class that currently excels at nothing more disadvantages.

Well there are some small advantages for being a NB:
1. Highest possible mitigation in game
2. Damage boost from cloak

One was good but if it isn’t backed up by self healing then it has limited benefit outside pve tanks. As a pvp healer it used to be enough but burst is up so the class doesn’t have enough mitigation and self healing to capitalize on the advantage

Two is the reason I think NB abilities are underwhelming. I have a hunch the devs looked at NB burst/damage and intentionally keep it down to stop ganking being able to global people. Whenever there’s anything close to a NB buff on PTS old snipe cloak videos are always linked for example. If the class is being balanced around that burst it’d be best to get rid of that passive entirely.

In terms of highest mitigation in the game, what are you basing that claim on? I ask because I personally have some interesting mitigation setups in other classes is like to compare that to.

In terms of holding a class back due to ganking than we already know it's a failed approach. Ganking isn't a nightblade thing. All classes can do it.

Minor and major protection is available to everyone, though it’s easier for some classes than others.

The merciless mitigation is a unique potential 10% damage reduction no one else can get.

Other classes might have mitigation passives or whatnot, but with onslaught it’s not a big difference. I think the only class that can compete are DKs and other classes with added block mitigation, but that’s only while blocking.

Classes like DKs play tanky because of lots of self healing and added block mitigation, plus the earthen heart passive that gives stamina back when you use that skill line. It lets you regain stamina while blocking. NBs can have high mitigation but lack the self healing to capitalize on the mitigation.

Royalthought · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

I agree that dark vigor should be changed to a flat health increase if they insist on keeping it a generic defense focused passive . That being said, I'd much prefer they change the passive to something more unique. Something like "enemies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken increased by X%. Allies effected by a shadow ability have their damage taken reduced by X%". The stat affected doesn't have to be damage taken. Could be a health modifier, weapon/spell damage modifier, speed modifier, etc...Just something that requires interaction with the shadow class line without necessitating the skills needing to be slotted on both bars. This passive would also allow the nightblade to bring extra utility to groups.

One additional sidebar to the above, I would also like reapers mark and blur to be moved to the shadow line, while surprise attack and shades are moved to the assassination line. I think this should be done regardless, since the current placement of SA and Blur does not make sense thematically in my opinion. Theme aside, nightblades would gain more out of their passives with those skills switched if my suggested change from earlier went through.

Dark cloak changes I disagree with. Not because they're bad. If we're being honest, they're great ideasin terms of satisfying all play styles. That being said, I am a class identity shill who hates the current concept of dark cloak to begin with. Why people want to tank with the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs is beyond me. Why the assassin class that avoids damage through mobility, deception, and debuffs needs minor protection and a hot based off of max health is also beyond me. I'd much prefer if dark cloak was a stealth morph that took the concealed weapon passive. You would then choose between speed or extra damage for your stealth morph. Then give concealed weapon a different, damage focused passive. I mean you could literally just give concealed the spell resist version of the debuff SA attack already has.

I have nothing to add to your cripple or Path suggestions. I think they would be great changes.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to switch blur and veiled strike. However if done the passive Shadow barrier becomes a bigger disadvantage to the class.

One of the reasons nightblades are often easier to kill is because their limited access to major resistance is shadow barrier and it’s 6 seconds at base. Lowest uptime in game. They have to “spam” a shadow skill on its cool down.

Switching out the cheapest shadow skill would result in major ward/resolve costing nightblades 3500-4000 magic every 6 or so seconds to maintain. Meanwhile every other class has a skill that grants it for 20 seconds plus other benefits. The myth is that nb have free resistance. Lowest uptime is the reality.

Major ward is approximately 8% of your resistances. Assuming my suggested changes to dark vigor went through as well, you'd be exchanging 6 seconds of an 8% resistance buff for a 28 second X% resistance buff. Even if that resistance buff was only 4% (and I really don't think it should be higher than that) that's a massive buff imo since it ignores the armor cap and last 22 seconds longer. Honestly, I'd prefer it was a damage increase instead of a resistance increase, but I tried to keep the theme of dark vigor.

That being said, nightblades having a hard time accessing resistances should be a class weakness. If classes have actual weaknesses, we can justify making them stronger in what they're good at.

Nightblades have plenty of weaknesses. They lack strengths.

They aren’t the best at anything combat wise. Viewing the buffs other classes have gotten were without drawbacks. It’s interesting hearing different viewpoints for improvements. That’s a good thing. But I’d be careful giving a class that currently excels at nothing more disadvantages.

Well there are some small advantages for being a NB:
1. Highest possible mitigation in game
2. Damage boost from cloak

One was good but if it isn’t backed up by self healing then it has limited benefit outside pve tanks. As a pvp healer it used to be enough but burst is up so the class doesn’t have enough mitigation and self healing to capitalize on the advantage

Two is the reason I think NB abilities are underwhelming. I have a hunch the devs looked at NB burst/damage and intentionally keep it down to stop ganking being able to global people. Whenever there’s anything close to a NB buff on PTS old snipe cloak videos are always linked for example. If the class is being balanced around that burst it’d be best to get rid of that passive entirely.

In terms of highest mitigation in the game, what are you basing that claim on? I ask because I personally have some interesting mitigation setups in other classes is like to compare that to.

In terms of holding a class back due to ganking than we already know it's a failed approach. Ganking isn't a nightblade thing. All classes can do it.

Minor and major protection is available to everyone, though it’s easier for some classes than others.

The merciless mitigation is a unique potential 10% damage reduction no one else can get.

Other classes might have mitigation passives or whatnot, but with onslaught it’s not a big difference. I think the only class that can compete are DKs and other classes with added block mitigation, but that’s only while blocking.

On my necro, without any mitigation from sets or guild skills.

Deaden pain: 3% damage reduction while slotted. Major protection when activated.
Disdain harm: 10% damage reduction from Dots. While bone tyrant skill slotted.
Spirit guardian: 10% damage reduction. (Unique like grim focus but requires no stacks)
Bone totem: Minor protection.

Nightblades don’t have the lead in any category.

Deathlord92 · October 2019

Agreed though you forgot about concealed weapon some players do prefer melee magblade and I want concealed weapon buff major breach or heal on contact like swallow soul etc.

Iskiab · October 2019

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Agreed though you forgot about concealed weapon some players do prefer melee magblade and I want concealed weapon buff major breach or heal on contact like swallow soul etc.

Agreed. That’s the weird part about melee magblades that I’ve always had difficulty with. You actually have access to less healing that the ranged playstyle, but require more. Sap isn’t strong enough to help melee survivability without requiring outside healing.

BlissfulDeluge · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Agreed though you forgot about concealed weapon some players do prefer melee magblade and I want concealed weapon buff major breach or heal on contact like swallow soul etc.

Agreed. That’s the weird part about melee magblades that I’ve always had difficulty with. You actually have access to less healing that the ranged playstyle, but require more. Sap isn’t strong enough to help melee survivability without requiring outside healing.

Overall I think Nightblades lack proper healing. Refreshing Path is a decent AoE HoT, but I don't think it's on-par with The Templar's Cleansing Ritual. Malevolent Offering is Breath of Life on steroids, but you can't use it to heal yourself. Swallow Soul is a weird damage/heal hybrid skill that heals for way too little over way too long time, and requires consistent spam on a target to be effective. Sap Essence is a weird, underwhelming AoE heal that requires being surrounded by enemies to keep yourself and others alive with it, not to mention you literally have to stand shoulder to shoulder with your group members to heal them with it. Siphoning Strikes only heals yourself every time you light attack, but requires a consistent target. Soul Siphon is a healing ultimate that you'll waste your ultimate on before you get bursted down .1 seconds before it goes off cause of the moronic cast time. Meanwhile that Templar you tried to burst down just *laughs in Rite of Passage*

hakan · October 2019

As Nb and DK main, ill say you are funny. i agree on some skills, blaming pvp (though it caused soem nerfs, true true) while magblades most of skills nerfed just because pve, is dumb. (healing, sapping etc)

And you cant compare everything on a vaccuum. That necro passive you just give example from. The class' most passives are just trash and you compare one of the good passives to ours?

WacArnold · October 2019

I agree with you. However somebody at zos must be a god at nbs because they seem to think its over performing while templars are under performing and getting crit on potl. Good thing nbs get mowed down before polt goes off by jabs and we wont have to worry about that.

Point is i doubt anything will change for a while.

Zos stay trashy.
BOOM BABY

Sahidom · October 2019

This won't be popular; but here it is. I would like NB to have a different approach to crowd-control (a/k/a disabling opponents) that counters and disables an opponent's sustain.

Replace Transfer passive with Soul Drain,

Damaging a target with a class ability causes the target to gain a "drain effect" and increases the alchemical poison effects by +10/20%. The "drain effect' reduces the opponents stamina/health/magic recovery by 10/20% for 4 seconds.

The reproach disables opponents by damaging their capacity to sustain. In consideration, resource poisons that increase stamina/magic skill cost by +10%; the passive change would have a slight increase to +11/12% to skill costs. Nothing too overbearing but also compliments the "drain effect," to disable opponent's offense capacity i.e. reducing their sustain.

Anyhoo... I'ma voicing and tossing this suggestion into the box.

Also, I like to see the Strife (Funnel Health/Swallow Soul morphs) restore health based on damage inflicted versus the current heal over time effect. At least then the spammable skill offers a healing type effect that doesn't get overwritten.

Sahidom · October 2019

I posted this before here and other older posts were similar. We really need our class skill trees amended and realigned. It's viable to tank or heal with any class but don't damage the class skills and synergies in the process. I agree the developers should not have reciprocated by changing some our skill for NB tank and healers. NB tanks already have limited skills and passives to be fully optimized compared to Dragon Knights. There are other forum posts that discuss classes and the combat triangle. This is a damage role class; tank and healing are viable through gear configurations but they'll never be optimized for these roles. Healing is done primarily through non-class skills in the current meta. Our forte is stealth, surprise attacks, resource management, and evasion/eluding enemies. Gear setups is the meta there.

In my opinion, the developers really need to rearrange/shift skills within our skill trees:

Assassination
- Assassin's Blade
- Veiled Strike < moved from Shadow Tree
- Add Melee DOT < re-purpose Debilitate from Siphoning Tree
- Marked Target
- Grim Focus < increase the speed so it's not SO telegraphed.
Shadow
- Teleport Strike < moved from Assassination Tree (e.g. Shadow Step/Strike)
- Shadow Cloak
- Blur > moved from Assassination Tree
- Aspect of Terror
- Summon Shade
Siphoning - Like to see the concept of "Blood Magic" minimized in the tree.
- Strife
- Malevolent Offering > rework/remove and return our other ST DoT please.
- Malevolent (Shadow) Path > rework and move to Siphoning (PBAoE)
- Siphoning Strikes
- Drain Power

The skill tree reworking places our offense in one tree, gap-closing/utility in one and range/heal in another. This may seem off-topic but it's not really that far off. I feel you need a well defined skill tree (current trees not included) to delve into how to make both Stam/Mag NBs strong and capable in both range/melee build variations.

Edited: Consolidating my posts on the subject here. I do agree that developers shouldn't t hurt the NB identity/class specialization b/c they want to put a circle in a square hole by forcing the circle into a square shape.

Iskiab · October 2019

Sahidom wrote: »

This won't be popular; but here it is. I would like NB to have a different approach to crowd-control (a/k/a disabling opponents) that counters and disables an opponent's sustain.

Replace Transfer passive with Soul Drain,

Damaging a target with a class ability causes the target to gain a "drain effect" and increases the alchemical poison effects by +10/20%. The "drain effect' reduces the opponents stamina/health/magic recovery by 10/20% for 4 seconds.

The reproach disables opponents by damaging their capacity to sustain. In consideration, resource poisons that increase stamina/magic skill cost by +10%; the passive change would have a slight increase to +11/12% to skill costs. Nothing too overbearing but also compliments the "drain effect," to disable opponent's offense capacity i.e. reducing their sustain.

Anyhoo... I'ma voicing and tossing this suggestion into the box.

Also, I like to see the Strife (Funnel Health/Swallow Soul morphs) restore health based on damage inflicted versus the current heal over time effect. At least then the spammable skill offers a healing type effect that doesn't get overwritten.

The ability cost thing would be pretty cool. The up front heal on funnel health would make funnel health similar to the DK shard though, the DK shard is being changed to heal two targets for 10-13k health in a pvp healer spec with major mending. Shard does slightly less damage though.

RavenSworn · October 2019

WacArnold wrote: »

I agree with you. However somebody at zos must be a god at nbs because they seem to think its over performing while templars are under performing and getting crit on potl. Good thing nbs get mowed down before polt goes off by jabs and we wont have to worry about that.

Point is i doubt anything will change for a while.

Zos stay trashy.
BOOM BABY

It's not that the devs think NBs are good, it's that the player base complains so much about Nbs. Zos is just following the crowd right now just like how they changed siphoning attacks in the first place or how they keep changing incap as well. Or how players complained about cloak when it has the single most number of hard counters.

Iskiab · October 2019

RavenSworn wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

I agree with you. However somebody at zos must be a god at nbs because they seem to think its over performing while templars are under performing and getting crit on potl. Good thing nbs get mowed down before polt goes off by jabs and we wont have to worry about that.

Point is i doubt anything will change for a while.

Zos stay trashy.
BOOM BABY

It's not that the devs think NBs are good, it's that the player base complains so much about Nbs. Zos is just following the crowd right now just like how they changed siphoning attacks in the first place or how they keep changing incap as well. Or how players complained about cloak when it has the single most number of hard counters.

Issue with that is there are double or more players of the popular classes. For example, see the recent explosion of Templar dps issues on the forums. If the game devs always act based on forum topics and popularity the game will get more and more imbalanced as time goes on.

BlissfulDeluge · October 2019

hakan wrote: »

As Nb and DK main, ill say you are funny. i agree on some skills, blaming pvp (though it caused soem nerfs, true true) while magblades most of skills nerfed just because pve, is dumb. (healing, sapping etc)

And you cant compare everything on a vaccuum. That necro passive you just give example from. The class' most passives are just trash and you compare one of the good passives to ours?

No, my dear, self-proclaimed NB main (a claim that I seriously doubt given how you're fine with Magicka Nightblades being in the gutter), Necromancers are outperforming every other class. Yes, it has some bad passives, but it has a ton of others that are awesome, and honestly? I consider Necromancers pay to win. Let's compare, shall we?

Nightblades:

Master Assassin - Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while you are Sneaking or invisible by 10%. Increases the duration of stun from Sneak by 100%. (Only useful for initiating hits from stealth in PvP)
Executioner - When an enemy dies within 2 seconds of being damage by one of your Assassination abilities, you restore 1876 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher. (A decent sustain ability, though it requires the death of a non-critter target)
Pressure Points - Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted. (A good critical increase passive, though it requires slotting multiple Assassin abilities to be effective, of which three can be expected to be front-bared in PvE)
Hemorrhage - Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%. Dealing Critical Damage grants you and your group Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 1320 for 20 seconds. (A strong critical damage increasement passive that provides some minor stam group utility)
Refreshing Shadows - Increases Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15%. (A very well-rounded sustain passive, one of the Nightblade's strong points)
Shadow Barrier - Casting a Shadow ability grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (provides Major resistance buffs with a high uptime if you slot heavy armor, up to a total of 16.5 seconds with all heavy armor which is below the 20 second duration of other class abilities giving the same buff, or if you use Veiled Strike as your spammable)
Dark Vigor - Increases your Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (An incredibly weak health passive that requires slotting multiple Shadow abilities to be effective, and slotting an equal amount of Shadow abilities on both bars to even out your health)
Dark Veil - Increases the duration of your Shadow abilities by 2 second. (Adds 2 seconds to every Shadow DoT, which complicates the rotation more than anything else)
Catalyst - After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate. (A seemingly powerful passive. However, unless you use potion glyphs, this has a 40 second cooldown. 20 : 40 = 0.5, which translates to .5 ult per second, or 1 ult per 2 seconds if using potions on cooldown)
Magicka Flood - Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (A powerful passive that requires slotting a Siphoning ability on both bars)
Soul Siphoner - Increases the effectiveness of your Healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted. (Requires slotting multiple Siphoning Abilities to be effective)
Transfer - Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown. (An ultimate generation passive that translates to 1 ult per 2 seconds if using Siphoning abilities on cooldown)

Necromancers

Reusable Parts - When your Blastbones, Skeletal Mage or Spirit Mender dies, the cost of your next Blastbones, Skeletal Mage or Spirit Mender cast is reduced by 25%. (Persists even if you leave combat, which gives the named abilities a permanent 25% cost reduction after the initial cast)
Death Knell - Increases your critical strike chance against enemies under 25% health by 10% for each Gravelord ability slotted. (Necromancers' answer to Assassin's Blade. Requires front-loading Gravelord abilities of which at least three can be expected to be frontloaded, but doesn't take up unnecessary barspace and doesn't require you to change your rotation in execute)
Dismember - While a Gravelord ability is active, your spell and physical penetration are increased by 1500. (Free armor penetration debuff)
Rapid Rot - Increases your damage done with damage over time effects by 10%. (Empowers all your DoTs for free)
Death Gleaning - With a bone tyrant ability slotted: Whenever an enemy you are in combat with dies within 28 meters of you, you restore 200 Magicka and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 2 seconds. (Tanking ability that gives good sustain)
Disdain Harm - Reduce the damage you take from damage over time abilities by 10% while you have a Bone Tyrant ability active. (Tanking ability that is pretty strong)
Health Avarice - Increase your Healing Received by 2% for each Bone Tyrant ability slotted. (A pretty useless Necromancer passive, comparable to Dark Vigor and Soul Siphoner)
Last Gasp - Increases your Max Health by 1250. (A strong health passive with no requirements)
Curative Curse - While you have a negative effect on you, your healing done is increased by 8%. (A specific ability that increases your healing whenever you'd expect to have to heal yourself)
While you have a Living Death ability slotted, you critical strike chance with all healing abilities is increased by up to 20% in proportion to the severity of the target's wounds. (Not so useless for DPS as it is for Healers, but a strong passive, nonetheless).
Corpse Consumption - When you use an ability on a corpse, you generate 10 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 16 seconds. (An ultimate generation ability for when you use abilities that affect corpses. Used universally by all Necromancer playstyles. Translates to 16 : 10 = 1.6, or 1.6 ultimate per second.)
Undead Confederate - While you have a Necromancer summon active, you Magicka and Stamina Recovery is increased by 200. (Increases your sustain while you have a summon active. Used universally by all Necromancer playstyles.)

As you can see, Necromancers have much better passives than the Nightblade, both in terms of effectivity, and in terms of quantity. Now that said, the examples I provided before aren't cherry-picked, even if the worst examples are highlighted,. Though the rest, you can dedicate your own time to educating yourself on with the links provided here:
Nightblades
Necromancers

Have a nice day.