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Dungeon finder desperately needs requirements for vet dungeons
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »
I presented you the factsdaedalusAI wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »You can probably pull 50 other threads (some with multiple pages of discussion) about this topic. There is no easy solution.
Either you increase queue time by restricting access to certain dungeons, or you keep things the way they are and hope the community handles it.
Define handle.
You have limited options:- You kick the abysmal players right away and hope RNG is on your side to get a suitable replacement
- You suffer through the dungeon with abysmal players, taking twice the time or more
- You yourself leave the group
- You never touch the dungeon finder again
I don't think there is an easy solution, but you did outline a few options.
On top of that, you could also communicate to that person that their actions are hurting the group. I'm sure some people are going to reply and say "that's useless to do as that person probably doesn't even care" but that's an easy cop-out to do nothing and let status quo be the way it is. There is a chance that the person doesn't know they are making a mistake. When I first started tanking, I was using a 2h and didn't really taunt a lot. I got called out and someone pointed me to some references on how I could properly tank. I wasn't salty, I took the criticism and learned from it. So I'd say there is a chance you could help other players without taking the route of kicking them.
People don't know what they're doing and they also don't care if you tell them, if they even understand English or can be bothered to read chat - they just want a convenient carry.
You have to be in the tiniest minority possible as you did listen to criticism as a means to improve.
How do you help someone who deliberately queued into the hard parts of the dungeon finder, but clearly lacks even the most basic of understanding?
How did you come to that conclusion? Honestly, it seems like you just want an easy solution. There is not one. Either take some time and energy to help other people out, or just deal with how the DF currently works.
This. Also, with how they are coming off here I wonder how abrasive they came off in the dungeon and how well they actually explained things when they comment like this. There are two sides to every story.
Regardless, with this attitude the best suggestion is form your own group.
Now you have my curiosity: what's the story of a Reverse Slice spamming person as his AoE tool of choice who tells you he doesn't care when you point out the low damage, considering he deliberately queued for vet?
LOL. I suppose the same person who after three failed GF attempts in BC II would think I can read minds.
You want to ensure you have a decent group form it yourself instead of expecting Zos to hold your hand in GF. We pretty much realize that people who come to the forums to complain about failed GF groups were part of that group, part of the failure, yet choose to blame the other three.
You presented us your version of the story. You call them facts but have nothing to back them up.
Considering you admitted to two failed GF groups attempts in BC II and still went to GF for a totally random group for a third attempt vs the sound idea of forming your own group your judgement can safely be called into question. Hence your version of the story.5 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »Isn't the dungeon finder supposed to hold my hand due to requirements in place to determine the kind of player which is allowed to queue for something, you know, like ilvl requirements in FF14 or WoW for certain content using their dungeon finder?
If I wanted “hand-holding” I might play those other MMOs ... but I play ESO.1 -
IndianaJames7✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »You can probably pull 50 other threads (some with multiple pages of discussion) about this topic. There is no easy solution.
Either you increase queue time by restricting access to certain dungeons, or you keep things the way they are and hope the community handles it.
Define handle.
You have limited options:- You kick the abysmal players right away and hope RNG is on your side to get a suitable replacement
- You suffer through the dungeon with abysmal players, taking twice the time or more
- You yourself leave the group
- You never touch the dungeon finder again
I don't think there is an easy solution, but you did outline a few options.
On top of that, you could also communicate to that person that their actions are hurting the group. I'm sure some people are going to reply and say "that's useless to do as that person probably doesn't even care" but that's an easy cop-out to do nothing and let status quo be the way it is. There is a chance that the person doesn't know they are making a mistake. When I first started tanking, I was using a 2h and didn't really taunt a lot. I got called out and someone pointed me to some references on how I could properly tank. I wasn't salty, I took the criticism and learned from it. So I'd say there is a chance you could help other players without taking the route of kicking them.
People don't know what they're doing and they also don't care if you tell them, if they even understand English or can be bothered to read chat - they just want a convenient carry.
You have to be in the tiniest minority possible as you did listen to criticism as a means to improve.
How do you help someone who deliberately queued into the hard parts of the dungeon finder, but clearly lacks even the most basic of understanding?
How did you come to that conclusion? Honestly, it seems like you just want an easy solution. There is not one. Either take some time and energy to help other people out, or just deal with how the DF currently works.
This. Also, with how they are coming off here I wonder how abrasive they came off in the dungeon and how well they actually explained things when they comment like this. There are two sides to every story.
Regardless, with this attitude the best suggestion is form your own group.
Now you have my curiosity: what's the story of a Reverse Slice spamming person as his AoE tool of choice who tells you he doesn't care when you point out the low damage, considering he deliberately queued for vet?
I can’t speak for others, but here is my other side of the story for spamming reverse slice.
This is obviously not the most effective strategy for pve, however reverse slice is a very common skill for Stam pvp players. I personally just use my pvp build/setup for overland content because the rapids/movement speed actually allow me traverse more quickly than my dungeon damage build.
I know first hand that it is possible to get decent damage (not amazing but decent) using a rotation that primarily spams reverse slice on all enemies below 50% (or even up to full health if you are using it for it for aoe damage on a pack of adds). Adding caltrops and poison injection to the above mentioned strategy I can solo WBs for 30-40k+ dps. This is more than enough for vet banished cells 2.
I can fully understand how a player who exclusively pvps and doesn’t have a proper dps build would enter a vet dungeon and use the above mentioned strategy if they needed to get gear. That is all the effort a lot of pvp players put into pve content and it is often more than sufficient.4 -
Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos just needs to remove the 15 minute penalty timer. Getting punished for trying to trust and interact with this community and getting thrown into dlc dungeons where everyone just stands still in every aoe possible and does nothing but light attack isn't fair. And that's coming from a healer main who gets decent queue times for random normals. I imagine dps players have it worse because they have to wait 30+ minutes to get into a group, and then have to eat the 15 minutes of watching a short bus trying to drive with a missing axle, or leave and do something else until they can queue again.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |2 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good Lord, are people STILL whining about this? Either form your own group, or PUG and take the luck of the draw. I enjoying PUGing because it forces me to improve my own play to make up for the inevitable lack of skill on other's parts...you never get better if your group is all elite players who just burn through all content...you only get better when you are challenged.6 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, and no its an major difference between normal and vet dungeons but player skills is also better.Donny_Vito wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »xpixelatedtkox wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »You can probably pull 50 other threads (some with multiple pages of discussion) about this topic. There is no easy solution.
Either you increase queue time by restricting access to certain dungeons, or you keep things the way they are and hope the community handles it.
This.
How to avoid abysmal players:- Form your own group.
Simple as that.
That indeed is one option, but it doesn't even attempt to solve the underlying issues:- People don't have to learn anything about how the combat works while during overland content
- People can queue for the hardest dungeon content right away as there are 0 requirements other than being lvl 50
This is not necessarily true. Vet DLC dungeons have a CP 300 requirement, so really you'll only get stuck with low CP characters in the base game Vet dungeons. I won't try to be too "elitist" but let's be honest, the base game vet dungeons feel like normal dungeons with how much DPS we can put out right now (might change next patch though).
Best way to do it is do dungeons in order, don't try to play the random vet game.
They are not very pugable, yes you can pug the older ones but not the newer.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭"Form your own group, don't pug, join a guild" replies are just as fallacious and vapid in this thread as they always are in similar threads.
FACT: This thread is about the Group Finder, and feedback suggesting changes to it, not OP's play style, friends, guilds, attitude, etc. SIMPLE.
FACT: People who are using the Group Finder are not "forming their own group." That should be plain to any adult human being not in a coma, but apparently it is not. People using the group finder ALMOST CERTAINLY ALREADY KNOW that forming their own group, joining a guild, building a friends list or just not pugging are play options that they have available.
FACT: One way in which most multiplayer games ARE judged, and rightfully so, is how well they put together random players such that the chance of having a positive experience for all is as high as possible. This is one VALID metric that busy people with limited play time use to decide which games to play. ESO currently FAILS this bigtime, but with just a few relatively low resource tweaks, could pass with flying colors.
To the actual topic, here are some possible fixes. 1. Impose DPS metrics on a standardized "starter dummy boss" at the beginning of the dungeon. If X Team DPS is not achieved, ANY players may leave the team without penalty from that point on and the remainder can decide whether to continue or requeue. 2. Require minimum HP (say 22k), resists (say 20k) and a taunting skill on one bar to queue into vet as a tank. 3. Require a restoration staff equipped to queue as a healer. 4. Require X% of fully leveled, morphed skills to queue as ANY role in vet. 5. Require completion of the normal version of the dungeon X times before vet is unlocked. 6. A solo "dungeon tutorial" zone/quest with an innate DPS meter that explains the roles in greater depth, MAKES the player block, roll dodge, interrupt, and plain run out of red or they fail. Prompts the DPS player to lay dots then apply spammables in a sequence. Tank and Heal versions could do similar. This would not cost much in resources to set up. 7. "Simulacrum" rooms accessible to players where they can practice, select different scenarios, etc., that are more than boring dummy humping. Several games, some far older than this one, have such functionality. Warframe and the old "Champions Online" come to mind off the top of my head.
Are the above perfect? or the only solutions? Neither, but they are better than nothing and would be steps in the right direction. Good games have good random team formation functionality, bad games do not. There is no reason whatsoever why ESO cannot be a "good" game in this respect with some tweaking.
6 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I have a simpler, although not perfect solution.
Just add a 3rd DPS for crying out loud and make dungeons and vdungeons 5 man.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FACT: This thread is about the Group Finder, and feedback suggesting changes to it
The OP does not actually suggest any changes. Being there is a minimum requirement for each dungeon via GF that were changes not long ago after feedback from players what they are requesting is essentially there. OP is basically just complaining because they were part of some failed groups.
Fact: In every MMORPG I have played I have been able to get better groups consistently forming my own group vs having a computer form a random group for me. To call suggesting such a sound (and easy) advice as fallacious is rather fallacious itself.4 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FACT: One way in which most multiplayer games ARE judged, and rightfully so, is how well they put together random players such that the chance of having a positive experience for all is as high as possible. This is one VALID metric that busy people with limited play time use to decide which games to play. ESO currently FAILS this bigtime, but with just a few relatively low resource tweaks, could pass with flying colors.
snip
Are the above perfect? or the only solutions? Neither, but they are better than nothing and would be steps in the right direction. Good games have good random team formation functionality, bad games do not. There is no reason whatsoever why ESO cannot be a "good" game in this respect with some tweaking.
There are no games that are good at matching random teams. Some are just easy enough that you are not too bothered that the skill of your average PUG teammate is somewhere between plain potato and freshly picked blueberry. Which leads to "positive experience".
The only fix to groupfinder woes is to cut dungeon difficulty to overland levels. But then no decent player will be interested in it of course.3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FACT: One way in which most multiplayer games ARE judged, and rightfully so, is how well they put together random players such that the chance of having a positive experience for all is as high as possible. This is one VALID metric that busy people with limited play time use to decide which games to play. ESO currently FAILS this bigtime, but with just a few relatively low resource tweaks, could pass with flying colors.
snip
Are the above perfect? or the only solutions? Neither, but they are better than nothing and would be steps in the right direction. Good games have good random team formation functionality, bad games do not. There is no reason whatsoever why ESO cannot be a "good" game in this respect with some tweaking.
There are no games that are good at matching random teams. Some are just easy enough that you are not too bothered that the skill of your average PUG teammate is somewhere between plain potato and freshly picked blueberry. Which leads to "positive experience".
The only fix to groupfinder woes is to cut dungeon difficulty to overland levels. But then no decent player will be interested in it of course.
There are games that are much easier because their builds are pretty much limited and mechanics are pretty simple. WoW and FF are two such games. So it is hard to get a really bad group as a result.
Edit; But you are correct that having a computer form your group from random players is still far from ideal in any game.Edited by idk on October 11, 2019 9:52PM0 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FACT: One way in which most multiplayer games ARE judged, and rightfully so, is how well they put together random players such that the chance of having a positive experience for all is as high as possible. This is one VALID metric that busy people with limited play time use to decide which games to play. ESO currently FAILS this bigtime, but with just a few relatively low resource tweaks, could pass with flying colors.
snip
Are the above perfect? or the only solutions? Neither, but they are better than nothing and would be steps in the right direction. Good games have good random team formation functionality, bad games do not. There is no reason whatsoever why ESO cannot be a "good" game in this respect with some tweaking.
There are no games that are good at matching random teams. Some are just easy enough that you are not too bothered that the skill of your average PUG teammate is somewhere between plain potato and freshly picked blueberry. Which leads to "positive experience".
The only fix to groupfinder woes is to cut dungeon difficulty to overland levels. But then no decent player will be interested in it of course.
There are games that are much easier because their builds are pretty much limited and mechanics are pretty simple. WoW and FF are two such games. So it is hard to get a really bad group as a result.
LOL, you think wow mechanics are simple?!?! You have clearly not played wow in some time. Their raids are infinitely more intimidating...and that is knowing someone can make up for poor DPS because of the number of people in the raid.
You can get PLENTY of bad groups in wow if you pug. In fact I would say most pugs are painful, esp in pvp.0 -
bmnoble✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For Vet you really really should form your own group, most time normal not DLC dungeons are fine with PUG groups but if you want a smooth run in a Vet dungeon you really need people you know, will be able to handle the content.
Its a random group finder at the end of the day, it gives you exactly that, its not set to give someone a good group.
Unless they come up with something similar to the MMR in battlegrounds for Vet PVE content don't see that changing, since people have been complaining about this for as long as the queues have existed.1 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Considering you admitted to two failed GF groups attempts in BC II and still went to GF for a totally random group for a third attempt vs the sound idea of forming your own group your judgement can safely be called into question.
What's that 'Einstein' quote about the definition of insanity?2 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭The OP does not actually suggest any changes.
Irrelevant. Just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.Being there is a minimum requirement for each dungeon via GF that were changes not long ago after feedback from players what they are requesting is essentially there.
Another completely irrelevant red herring and non sequitur wrapped into one. Just because the GF has been changed in the past or even yesterday does not invalidate OP's concerns and right to feedback about it today without being CONSTANTLY fallaciously derailed by you and yours. And those changes obviously do not address OP's concerns invalidating the "essentially there" nonsense.OP is basically just complaining because they were part of some failed groups.
aaannnnd, let's wrap it all up with a straw man. OP did not post anything like the above.Fact: In every MMORPG I have played I have been able to get better groups consistently forming my own group vs having a computer form a random group for me. To call suggesting such a sound (and easy) advice as fallacious is rather fallacious itself.
Utterly nonresponsive to my my post. Do you have anything to say about the actual thread topic? The group finder in ESO? or just more fallacies and hollow post count fluffing?
3 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭There are no games that are good at matching random teams.
Incorrect. Maybe next time avoid the universal claim and leave yourself some wiggle room.The only fix to groupfinder woes is to cut dungeon difficulty to overland levels. But then no decent player will be interested in it of course.
Disagree. Listed several ways to make GF better. Some players will always game the system, but by and large, if the game tells players what a role is supposed to do and how to do it, puts a few simple tools in the game to help them get better at it before they can queue into vet dungeons, adds in some minor tests or requires a record of completion before going to a higher mode, etc., a vast majority will take the game at face value and improve. ESO has nothing whatsoever in meaningful role training, is full of unregulated experience caves, and those two things together lead to a sea of bad players. This is ZOS's fault and could be easily improved.
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witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭... just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.... just as fallacious and vapid in this thread as they always are in similar threads.
Wow. You come off as a tad bit hostile.
Also just because you capitalise it, and put it in bold, opinion is not 'fact.' Any adult not in a coma should probably know that.
Also, none of your ideas are particularly new, and come with any number of issues.1. Impose DPS metrics on a standardized "starter dummy boss" at the beginning of the dungeon. If X Team DPS is not achieved, ANY players may leave the team without penalty from that point on and the remainder can decide whether to continue or requeue.
So each dungeon now requires an additional dummy parse before the start? What if the problem in that particular PUG is not the DPS, but the tank or healer?2. Require minimum HP (say 22k), resists (say 20k) and a taunting skill on one bar to queue into vet as a tank.
This has been beaten to death in every 'fake' thread. Unless skills are locked to the bar, it won't solve anything. Locking skills would be a bad idea because, at a minimum, changing skill loadouts between AOE trash and ST boss fights is a good option.3. Require a restoration staff equipped to queue as a healer.
Why pigeon hole. What if a healer using class skills and 2 destro staffs is better/sufficient?4. Require X% of fully leveled, morphed skills to queue as ANY role in vet.
So an experienced player on a new alt cannot queue?5. Require completion of the normal version of the dungeon X times before vet is unlocked.
Same as above.6. A solo "dungeon tutorial" zone/quest with an innate DPS meter that explains the roles in greater depth, MAKES the player block, roll dodge, interrupt, and plain run out of red or they fail. Prompts the DPS player to lay dots then apply spammables in a sequence. Tank and Heal versions could do similar. This would not cost much in resources to set up.
Won't cost much in resources? Says who? You?
It is otherwise a commonly suggested idea. One I also like.7. "Simulacrum" rooms accessible to players where they can practice, select different scenarios, etc., that are more than boring dummy humping. Several games, some far older than this one, have such functionality. Warframe and the old "Champions Online" come to mind off the top of my head.
Yes, as above, a more interactive tutorial may be helpful.
But tying it to the ability to use the GF may prove ... inflamatory ... amongst a segment of the player base.
EDIT to finish: and this is why forming your own group/relying on guild mates is advised. If you PUG, you get PUGs.Edited by witchdoctor on October 12, 2019 1:02AM3 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭witchdoctor wrote: »Wow. You come off as a tad bit hostile.
Wow. You come off as an aardvark. Did I convince you? No? Saved me some time replying, thanks.2 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭witchdoctor wrote: »Wow. You come off as a tad bit hostile.
Wow. You come off as an aardvark. Did I convince you? No? Saved me some time replying, thanks.
So, you ARE just as vapid as you accuse others of being.
Have a great day!3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The OP does not actually suggest any changes.
Irrelevant. Just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.Being there is a minimum requirement for each dungeon via GF that were changes not long ago after feedback from players what they are requesting is essentially there.
Another completely irrelevant red herring and non sequitur wrapped into one. Just because the GF has been changed in the past or even yesterday does not invalidate OP's concerns and right to feedback about it today without being CONSTANTLY fallaciously derailed by you and yours. And those changes obviously do not address OP's concerns invalidating the "essentially there" nonsense.OP is basically just complaining because they were part of some failed groups.
aaannnnd, let's wrap it all up with a straw man. OP did not post anything like the above.Fact: In every MMORPG I have played I have been able to get better groups consistently forming my own group vs having a computer form a random group for me. To call suggesting such a sound (and easy) advice as fallacious is rather fallacious itself.
Utterly nonresponsive to my my post. Do you have anything to say about the actual thread topic? The group finder in ESO? or just more fallacies and hollow post count fluffing?
So if your opinion differs you call it a red herring and when a comment directly addresses what you stated it is irrelevant if it is inconvenient to what you stated.
Fact: we have all given our opinions on the matter and none are more important than the others. By calling other people thoughts on the matter red herrings you are merely being dismissive when offering nothing better of value.Edited by idk on October 12, 2019 4:13AM3 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭The OP does not actually suggest any changes.
Irrelevant. Just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.Being there is a minimum requirement for each dungeon via GF that were changes not long ago after feedback from players what they are requesting is essentially there.
Another completely irrelevant red herring and non sequitur wrapped into one. Just because the GF has been changed in the past or even yesterday does not invalidate OP's concerns and right to feedback about it today without being CONSTANTLY fallaciously derailed by you and yours. And those changes obviously do not address OP's concerns invalidating the "essentially there" nonsense.OP is basically just complaining because they were part of some failed groups.
aaannnnd, let's wrap it all up with a straw man. OP did not post anything like the above.Fact: In every MMORPG I have played I have been able to get better groups consistently forming my own group vs having a computer form a random group for me. To call suggesting such a sound (and easy) advice as fallacious is rather fallacious itself.
Utterly nonresponsive to my my post. Do you have anything to say about the actual thread topic? The group finder in ESO? or just more fallacies and hollow post count fluffing?
So if your opinion differs you call it a red herring and when a comment directly addresses what you stated it is irrelevant if it is inconvenient to what you stated.
Fact: we have all given our opinions on the matter and none are more important than the others. By calling other people thoughts on the matter red herrings you are merely being dismissive when offering nothing better of value.
Quite rich coming from the guy who hides behind a "We" when expressing his opinion.
But you and people like you prefer to utter nothing but red herrings, as evident by your post #32: instead of acknowledging that the dungeon finder and its requirements are utterly lacking you question my judgement for repeatedly trying to do vet BC II through the dungeon finder when I only succeeded to do it on my 3rd try.
Additionally the usual mantra of "Make your own group" is nothing but a workaround for a failed dungeon finder, because all the people who utter it clearly imply that the dungeon finder IS lacking - because why else would you recommend to not use a functionality of a software and instead do it manually?Edited by daedalusAI on October 12, 2019 5:47AM3 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭witchdoctor wrote: »... just another red herring that you and posters like you specialize in.... just as fallacious and vapid in this thread as they always are in similar threads.
Wow. You come off as a tad bit hostile.
Also just because you capitalise it, and put it in bold, opinion is not 'fact.' Any adult not in a coma should probably know that.
Also, none of your ideas are particularly new, and come with any number of issues.1. Impose DPS metrics on a standardized "starter dummy boss" at the beginning of the dungeon. If X Team DPS is not achieved, ANY players may leave the team without penalty from that point on and the remainder can decide whether to continue or requeue.
So each dungeon now requires an additional dummy parse before the start? What if the problem in that particular PUG is not the DPS, but the tank or healer?2. Require minimum HP (say 22k), resists (say 20k) and a taunting skill on one bar to queue into vet as a tank.
This has been beaten to death in every 'fake' thread. Unless skills are locked to the bar, it won't solve anything. Locking skills would be a bad idea because, at a minimum, changing skill loadouts between AOE trash and ST boss fights is a good option.3. Require a restoration staff equipped to queue as a healer.
Why pigeon hole. What if a healer using class skills and 2 destro staffs is better/sufficient?4. Require X% of fully leveled, morphed skills to queue as ANY role in vet.
So an experienced player on a new alt cannot queue?5. Require completion of the normal version of the dungeon X times before vet is unlocked.
Same as above.6. A solo "dungeon tutorial" zone/quest with an innate DPS meter that explains the roles in greater depth, MAKES the player block, roll dodge, interrupt, and plain run out of red or they fail. Prompts the DPS player to lay dots then apply spammables in a sequence. Tank and Heal versions could do similar. This would not cost much in resources to set up.
Won't cost much in resources? Says who? You?
It is otherwise a commonly suggested idea. One I also like.7. "Simulacrum" rooms accessible to players where they can practice, select different scenarios, etc., that are more than boring dummy humping. Several games, some far older than this one, have such functionality. Warframe and the old "Champions Online" come to mind off the top of my head.
Yes, as above, a more interactive tutorial may be helpful.
But tying it to the ability to use the GF may prove ... inflamatory ... amongst a segment of the player base.
EDIT to finish: and this is why forming your own group/relying on guild mates is advised. If you PUG, you get PUGs.
Can I paraphrase your stance on the matter as: "The status quo of the dungeon finder is good enough and doesn't need any change, as you have the workaround of making your own groups"?
Intriguing how you didn't discuss any of his factual points, but instead dismissed all of them with the broad stroke of "opinion is not a fact". Are you sure you want to discuss the matter of the dungeon finder?
My OP is about the dungeon finder and its lacking requirements, and yet the majority in here parrots about "make your own group" or "you should teach them", but that's not even the topic: I want to use the functionality called dungeon finder without getting people who just now learn in a vet dungeon what moving out of bad means.
The quality of the dungeon/group finder is a good metric to go by: I remember when Heroes of the Storm changed their group finder from "Making equally balanced teams" to "Shortest queue time by throwing long-term players and complete beginners in the same group" - and the resulting games were just laughable, as the overwhelming majority of games were just one-sides stomps.
ESO is doing the latter: minimal requirements which don't even deserve to be named so, as it's just the level/CP number as gating mechanism, 0 in-game tools or help to properly learn ESO's combat and then I reckon opting for the "Shortest queue possible".Edited by daedalusAI on October 12, 2019 6:03AM2 -
Zacuel✭✭✭✭✭
✭I drop real pug puppies down sewer drains. That's how terrible pugs are to me in eso.0 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭the only way you can enjoy PUGs is when you have everything you want/can afford, including keys, sets, gold, motifs and at least 3 different fully geared roles. At this moment you can enjoy "farming" PUGs. Found a good one? Go. Bad one? Leave/teach/kick/troll/switch to another role and try again.1 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭daedalusAI wrote: »Can I paraphrase your stance on the matter as: "The status quo of the dungeon finder is good enough and doesn't need any change, as you have the workaround of making your own groups"?
No, not really.daedalusAI wrote: »Intriguing how you didn't discuss any of his factual points, but instead dismissed all of them with the broad stroke of "opinion is not a fact". Are you sure you want to discuss the matter of the dungeon finder?
Again, I dispute he ever gave factual points. He gave his opinion wrapped in a layer of condescension.
Just because he thinks there are other games with better grouping tools does not make it true, and, if you read what you quoted, I did reply to his 7 ideas of what would improve the GF.
Let me come back to you wanting to paraphrase me.
I suspect the fundamental difference between our positions is this:
I see the GF tool as serving one function, and one function only: putting 4 players together into a dungeon, with 1 as tank, 1 as healer, and 2 as DPS.
That's it. In that regard, baring its occasional technical failures, it does exactly that. Nothing more, nothing less.
I see your complaint, and Buttaface's 'facts,' as well as all the other myriad posts about failed PUGs, fake roles, et al., as complaints about the community's use of the GF.
I don't disagree with your complaint in the OP. It would be smashing! if people did not queue for vet dungeons until they had some basic skills.
But, I don't blame the GF for that. The GF didn't promise my lowbie a few hours ago to provide a competent tank. Instead, it gave me someone who had gone out of their way to farm a set of under-level 34 Ebon Armour and who then elected to queue as tank using a 2-handed weapon and never taunting.
Other than making a crack in a guild's Discord, and this comment, I just did what I expect others to do: stay, or adapt. I tanked it. It was DC1, whoppity-doo.
You had issues with 2 groups in vetBC2 HM. You elected to go back to the GF a third time. So, yes, I say the issue was you not putting together a group by other means. I say this for the sole reason that you clearly expected the GF to provide you with success, which is not its function.
You wanted to succeed. Fair enough! The GF cannot give you success.daedalusAI wrote: »My OP is about the dungeon finder and its lacking requirements, and yet the majority in here parrots about "make your own group" or "you should teach them", but that's not even the topic: I want to use the functionality called dungeon finder without getting people who just now learn in a vet dungeon what moving out of bad means.
There it is. Sorry. Until the skill of the player base improves ... you will continue to take your chances every time you click 'join the queue.'daedalusAI wrote: »The quality of the dungeon/group finder is a good metric to go by: I remember when Heroes of the Storm changed their group finder from "Making equally balanced teams" to "Shortest queue time by throwing long-term players and complete beginners in the same group" - and the resulting games were just laughable, as the overwhelming majority of games were just one-sides stomps.
ESO is doing the latter: minimal requirements which don't even deserve to be named so, as it's just the level/CP number as gating mechanism, 0 in-game tools or help to properly learn ESO's combat and then I reckon opting for the "Shortest queue possible".
*If* ESO is doing that, it is because there is no worthy tutorial. Which, if you had read what you quoted, you would see was the one idea that I agreed with.4 -
CAB_LifeClass RepresentativeOn console, at least, you get on mic or you usually get kicked in harder vet content (not by me, necessarily, unless you’re being a total arse—that’s just the status quo). People usually aren’t that terrible, either, they just need real-time instructions. I don’t queue or do any of my “fun with pugs” video-runs without first feeling/ knowing that I’m stepping into a leadership role. I will also run a dungeon several times on PTS to ensure that I—as tank/ leader—know wtf I’m doing and am therefor qualified enough to coach others. I also build my characters for full sustain/ buffing with all points in resources and a minimum of 32K health (capped resistances, too). That way, I’m only a gear swap or monster helm away from filling any weaknesses in the group composition and I don’t require any sort of support or babysitting myself.
99% of my runs end in varying levels of success, from “barely made it” to “can’t believe none of us knew each other before this.” I pugged Vet Frostvault, for example, 2 days after (console) release with a CP 199 Australian—omg that ping!—who was actually pretty decent and had just kept getting kicked on account of his CP. Never judge a book by it’s cover, since he was better than most of the other players I’d seen consistently wipe at the 3rd boss. Cleared it in about 1:15h with three totally random people, two of which are now on my friends list.
If I don’t feel like being social or engaging, I’ll put myself in offline mode (to stop the hate-whispers) and go PVP! Main takeaway is that you don’t do—harder—group content unless you feel like, well, grouping!
*None of this really applies to normal or even lower-end Vet dungeons. You don’t need a line of communication for that stuff, which is mostly faceroll.
Fitness/ Gaming/ Fantasy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2qoTV-kge_bU90i2lgkyvA0 -
FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I want to use the dungeon finder to get groups, but having started doing pledges a few days ago I've already seen the abyss in terms of player performance: fake tank, fake heal, low to high CP who shouldn't be near vet content for for at least a couple of months, but can queue for them anyway etc.
How can it be that people who barely got their toes wet in terms of understanding ESO's combat are allowed to queue for the hardest content right away?
Just now I had a CP 260 templar only spamming Jabs, or a 400ish CP DK hitting Reverse Slice on full HP enemies as his means of AoE - and my patience is getting really thin after just a few days.
As the item level caps at CP 160 it's not a suitable metric to go by, and the amount of CP someone accumulated also doesn't tell anything.
Having the normal dungeon being done as the requirement for the vet version could be a metric, but difficulty does spike quite a lot between normal and vet.
You are not able to queue for vet dungeons ‘right away’. You have to be L50.
ZOS does a good job of funnelling players to dungeons from L10 onwards and progressively introduces harder dungeons. It does a rubbish job of introducing players to dungeon skills (or any skills for that matter).
There are some issues, principally that normal dungeons do nothing to prepare players for vet dungeons, and the Undaunted keys/levelling, monster hats and transmute stone benefits of doing vet content mean that players will want to do the harder vet content as soon as possible.
That said, I’ve been doing lots of vet PUGs and I have seen none of the things you have.
My only problem with PUGs has been the long time it takes to actually get in one (which suggests that there is no way whatsoever ZOS will be trying to limit or manage players).
The solution for you (and for me and my PUG queue) is to join an active guild where you will find players who want to do similar content. You can then choose who to play with. If you PUG, you get to play with all kinds of players, some great, some lousy (and I’m not just talking about their personalities here), you don’t get to choose.
I did my first dungeon (a PUG obv) at CP450 and I was rubbish, and there was some guy who rushed off into the distance and was never seen again, and there was zero group coordination, and I had no idea how chat worked.... and yet I had a great time. And that is what it is all about.1 -
FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Dude, you don’t need serious damage for BC2
You do need effective crowd control and tanking. A coordinated and capable group can manage it easily, but it’s one of the harder non-DLC dungeons around.
Personally, I would save myself the aggro and get my own group together. But then I have friends2 -
Huyen✭✭✭✭✭
✭daedalusAI wrote: »I want to use the dungeon finder to get groups, but having started doing pledges a few days ago I've already seen the abyss in terms of player performance: fake tank, fake heal, low to high CP who shouldn't be near vet content for for at least a couple of months, but can queue for them anyway etc.
How can it be that people who barely got their toes wet in terms of understanding ESO's combat are allowed to queue for the hardest content right away?
Just now I had a CP 260 templar only spamming Jabs, or a 400ish CP DK hitting Reverse Slice on full HP enemies as his means of AoE - and my patience is getting really thin after just a few days.
As the item level caps at CP 160 it's not a suitable metric to go by, and the amount of CP someone accumulated also doesn't tell anything.
Having the normal dungeon being done as the requirement for the vet version could be a metric, but difficulty does spike quite a lot between normal and vet.
So how do you want to fix the following problem: I play since the beta. I understand mechanics in vet dungeons. Done alot of them. But my current main (magwarden) is a gutted class. So how do you expect me to follow your implied rules for vet dungeons?Huyen Shadowpaw, dedicated nightblade tank - PS4 (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, nightblade dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Lightpaw, templar healer - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, necromancer dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, dragonknight (no defined role yet)
"Failure is only the opportunity to begin again. Only this time, more wisely" - Uncle Iroh0
