Why are all stam builds top dps?

Yuffie91 · October 2019

Looking at the rankings on https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bw0fs9/current_dps_rankings_in_veteran_sunspire/ (not sure if it is still like this could not find one for this or last month) it shows stam classes are all way ahead of mag..why is this? Any particular reason? Seems kind of sad as I like playing mag myself

Grandesdar · October 2019

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

Yuffie91 · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

But not all mag classes have pets do they? Mag dk, magblade and magplar dont have pets. And mag classes have to avoid things also

SipofMaim · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

My magDK stands right where your stamDK stands, only I'm wearing light armor. Tell me more about how low-risk my playstyle is, and my pets and endless shields.

There are a lot of reasons stamina is outperforming magicka right now, but "higher risk, higher reward" isn't one of them.

Sanguinor2 · October 2019

People will like telling you that it is because of melee vs ranged, which of Course doesnt hold up since there is melee mag dds that are behind in dps and everyone stands in melee in most boss fights anyway no matter if its a mag or stam dps.

It just Comes down to game balance and sets, we had Patches a few years ago where mag was ahead in dps and These days stam is since quite some time, if you look at recent sets for example in the boss fights where stam can use rele stam will be ahead since the 5 piece alone is around 11k dps and lokke is an incredibly strong sets too giving you potentionally 100% Major Slayer aka 15% increased Damage done with up to 100% uptime alltho something like 75% is more realistic.

Juhasow · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

What is incorrect is to make vMA comparition in the thread about vSS. Good luck trying to pull numbers comparable to other DDs on magsorc in easy vMA build.

pharlex · October 2019

Yeah the whole oh stam has to be in melee range thing is a joke most trials you end up stacking either literally right on top of each other(pixel stack/hard stack) or really close to one another(soft stack) for most fights and in other fights that it isnt required you still end up close to the boss anyways because the arenas arent really all that big.

Mag tend to be just as close to the boss as stam for most boss fights, and like many have said there are melee range mag builds and one of the top performing mag monster sets, za'an, has to be used in melee range.

The only argument that has any validity I've seen is shields but even then not every build has room for you to slot a shield and most trials you end up relying on good healers and shields only end up coming into play if they mess up or you are standing in the wrong place.

Overall there isnt really much of an actual reason to have mag doing less damage than stam. Unless someone can give me another reason and back it up with evidence to support their argument, I dont see why we should have mag doing less damage.

KillsAllElves · October 2019

Higher damage.

Heatnix90 · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

Shields have been irrelevant since murkmire when they began respecting resistance values and scaling off Health as well as Magicka, and pets are irrelevant these days. Stam has always been at the top because they benefit more from stacking pure weapon damage as opposed to mag stacking magicka for stronger light attacks.

Even places like Asylum Sanctorium, which used to be the domain of mag classes has become a stam dominate trial, with the current world record run being held by an all stamcro group.

robpr · October 2019

Highier weapon damage (that scale from passives) with very high crit chance, innate execute with dual wield, Relequen that does hands-free damage and high Major Slayer uptime from Lokkestiz. And Major Vulnerability to the mix.

Iskiab · October 2019

robpr wrote: »

Highier weapon damage (that scale from passives) with very high crit chance, innate execute with dual wield, Relequen that does hands-free damage and high Major Slayer uptime from Lokkestiz. And Major Vulnerability to the mix.

Yup, main reason is DW daggers giving more weapon damage with the crit. Then with raid buffs it multiplies.

I think when they initially designed the game they thought magicka status effects would balance the weapon damage difference between weapon types, but with time and power creep it hasn’t.

Austinseph1 · October 2019

If I had to say the biggest difference is the current stam sets are very strong... Relequen can pull upwards of 10-11k dps from the 5 piece bonus alone without any real requirement other than a small wind up. Compare that to a the BIS mag equivalent Siroria which does a similar thing but just gives you the spell damage so it requires you to continuously expend resources to take full advantage. Lokk gives you a strong buff for just taking a synergy which is easier than ever with orbs giving an entire group synergies. When False god's devotion was released it was seen as a very loaded set and its just a copy of an old stam set so that should tell you something about how much can come with a good stamina set. Given the trend mag may see a light armor version of these sets and they will also be seen as overloaded because of how much utility tends to come from them. This isn't the only reason stam is top, There are many other possible reasons as well, but I've been playing for about 2 years now and as far as Ive known stam has always occupied most of the top dps classes In organized play.

Alcast · October 2019

One of the reasons stamina is superior currently is because they have sets that carry them really hard.

https://eso-sets.com/set/perfected-tooth-of-lokkestiiz
https://eso-sets.com/set/arms-of-relequen

Now these statistics there are nice, but please remember they don't really represent all people and no clue how correct they are either. If you look for the same data currently the result already looks a bit different:

Vanos444 · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

malistorr · October 2019

The answer is obviously because this is how the dev wants things to be right now. It is a fact that DPS is much higher on stam characters overall. So the dev made things this way and they are choosing not to correct anything.
End of story. Unless people keep complaining about it, they have no reason to even things out. Even if we do complain, they seem to ignore us, as it's been going on for well over a year, if not 2.

Donny_Vito · October 2019

#1 Reason: Necromancer

Heatnix90 · October 2019

Vanos444 wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

lmao what? You do realize that it's super easy to weave on a mag toon, and they literally have an arena weapon designed boost their weaves, right?

p00tx · October 2019

Vanos444 wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

Wut? No we don't...

The problem is the way things are set up and the set availability. Mag is very limited at the top end when it comes to sets. All specs wear the same gear, and have been for a long time, barring the addition of PFG, which is just a slightly nicer version of a stam set that has been out since forever. Add to that, we have to be incredibly judicious about our rotation so we can sustain since we can't use sustain food without losing a ton of either health or dmg, while stam can dump attribute points into health while running Lava Foot and still do insane amounts of dmg. Someone at the top either looooves stam to the exclusion of all else, or just doesn't get it when it comes to the dmg disparity.

We came close to closing the mag/stam gap with this latest patch, and we'll see how it looks once the newest batch of parses start rolling in, but stam is still the dps king for almost all content.

Joy_Division · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

Keep telling yourself that, you might even begin to believe it when all the magica DDs stack right on top of the stam specs fighting the Sunspire dragons.

Nestor · October 2019

I think the intention was to compensate for how the resource pools are used. Blocking and Roll Dodge and Sprinting use up Stamina. So, they gave a boost to Stamina as your using up your resource pool to move around and stay alive.

However, this is mostly a factor in PvP, not Trials and Cheese Production.

So, blame PvP balance for the imbalance in PvE.

Waffennacht · October 2019

Nestor wrote: »

I think the intention was to compensate for how the resource pools are used. Blocking and Roll Dodge and Sprinting use up Stamina. So, they gave a boost to Stamina as your using up your resource pool to move around and stay alive.

However, this is mostly a factor in PvP, not Trials and Cheese Production.

So, blame PvP balance for the imbalance in PvE.

I haven't heard that logic in 3+ years.

Compensation of resources has long since gone by

Clearly, as proven with mathematical evidence above, the sets that deal 11k dps for you make the significant difference.

Vanos444 · October 2019

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

lmao what? You do realize that it's super easy to weave on a mag toon, and they literally have an arena weapon designed boost their weaves, right?

Lol! I have played this game for 4 years and I know what I am saying....
It may be easy for you but it's difficult to weave compared stamina beacuse are less punishing compared to magicka builds and in stamina I can weave faster and bring out more DPS. ( Except for magSorc)
I sometimes miss an attack because of mechanics...

p00tx wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

Wut? No we don't...

The problem is the way things are set up and the set availability. Mag is very limited at the top end when it comes to sets. All specs wear the same gear, and have been for a long time, barring the addition of PFG, which is just a slightly nicer version of a stam set that has been out since forever. Add to that, we have to be incredibly judicious about our rotation so we can sustain since we can't use sustain food without losing a ton of either health or dmg, while stam can dump attribute points into health while running Lava Foot and still do insane amounts of dmg. Someone at the top either looooves stam to the exclusion of all else, or just doesn't get it when it comes to the dmg disparity.

We came close to closing the mag/stam gap with this latest patch, and we'll see how it looks once the newest batch of parses start rolling in, but stam is still the dps king for almost all content.

I agree about the sets. But stam are easy to execute. Even if you mess up your rotation. While for magicka, it's a huge DPS loss..

That's the reason, I don't like magicka builds.
Now don't get me wrong, if you only play a magSorc then things change. MagSorc are easier to execute compared to other magicka classes and stam builds.

I have a Magnb as my main and I know, how frustrating it is, compared to my stamcro...

Yuffie91 · October 2019

I thought it was because maybe stam is seen as a full dps while mag is sort of hybrid because they can easily switch to heal. If it's just gear then I wonder why zos doesn't balance it out more..

mocap · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields

instead they have infinite dodge roll, which can prevent most of one shot mechanics where shields are more like wet noodle.

InvictusApollo · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

All magicka classes that use Zaan also have to stand in the same spot as stamina classes. Sure they have shields and even burst heals but on the other hand stamina have Vigor for awesome self healing hot that is so short that it is almost a burst heal.

SipofMaim · October 2019

Yuffie91 wrote: »

I thought it was because maybe stam is seen as a full dps while mag is sort of hybrid because they can easily switch to heal. If it's just gear then I wonder why zos doesn't balance it out more..

Yes, they do seem to think magicka DDs are really just healers-in-waiting. Worse for some classes than others, but give them time.

Schattenfluegel · October 2019

Austinseph1 wrote: »

If I had to say the biggest difference is the current stam sets are very strong... Relequen can pull upwards of 10-11k dps from the 5 piece bonus alone without any real requirement other than a small wind up. Compare that to a the BIS mag equivalent Siroria which does a similar thing but just gives you the spell damage so it requires you to continuously expend resources to take full advantage. Lokk gives you a strong buff for just taking a synergy which is easier than ever with orbs giving an entire group synergies. When False god's devotion was released it was seen as a very loaded set and its just a copy of an old stam set so that should tell you something about how much can come with a good stamina set. Given the trend mag may see a light armor version of these sets and they will also be seen as overloaded because of how much utility tends to come from them. This isn't the only reason stam is top, There are many other possible reasons as well, but I've been playing for about 2 years now and as far as Ive known stam has always occupied most of the top dps classes In organized play.

If you can equip and play relequen on bosses, yes. In the newer Raids like vSS except Fireboss, VCR and vAS Relequen is just crap. If you have to change targets, this set becomes crap. Lokke need good synergy uptimes for being a good set (it rewards it at 71% uptime, not before). Its not so easy, if you think - but you have to play with the proccondition of this sets, too. You dont get that much uptime on Zmaja, if you miss a LA on it all 5 seconds.

But if you can play with Rele or Lokke on Bosses, it carries you. Its the same as siroria can do.

Heatnix90 · October 2019

Vanos444 wrote: »

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

lmao what? You do realize that it's super easy to weave on a mag toon, and they literally have an arena weapon designed boost their weaves, right?

Lol! I have played this game for 4 years and I know what I am saying....
It may be easy for you but it's difficult to weave compared stamina beacuse are less punishing compared to magicka builds and in stamina I can weave faster and bring out more DPS. ( Except for magSorc)
I sometimes miss an attack because of mechanics...

p00tx wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

Wut? No we don't...

The problem is the way things are set up and the set availability. Mag is very limited at the top end when it comes to sets. All specs wear the same gear, and have been for a long time, barring the addition of PFG, which is just a slightly nicer version of a stam set that has been out since forever. Add to that, we have to be incredibly judicious about our rotation so we can sustain since we can't use sustain food without losing a ton of either health or dmg, while stam can dump attribute points into health while running Lava Foot and still do insane amounts of dmg. Someone at the top either looooves stam to the exclusion of all else, or just doesn't get it when it comes to the dmg disparity.

We came close to closing the mag/stam gap with this latest patch, and we'll see how it looks once the newest batch of parses start rolling in, but stam is still the dps king for almost all content.

I agree about the sets. But stam are easy to execute. Even if you mess up your rotation. While for magicka, it's a huge DPS loss..

That's the reason, I don't like magicka builds.
Now don't get me wrong, if you only play a magSorc then things change. MagSorc are easier to execute compared to other magicka classes and stam builds.

I have a Magnb as my main and I know, how frustrating it is, compared to my stamcro...

Clearly you don't know what you're doing, because you're just making stuff up at this point? Stam is easier to weave because they're closer? lol, everyone is the same distance when they're stacking on bosses.

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

But if you can play with Rele or Lokke on Bosses, it carries you. Its the same as siroria can do.

Siroria isn't even comparable to Lokke, much less Rele.

Iskiab · October 2019

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

lmao what? You do realize that it's super easy to weave on a mag toon, and they literally have an arena weapon designed boost their weaves, right?

Lol! I have played this game for 4 years and I know what I am saying....
It may be easy for you but it's difficult to weave compared stamina beacuse are less punishing compared to magicka builds and in stamina I can weave faster and bring out more DPS. ( Except for magSorc)
I sometimes miss an attack because of mechanics...

p00tx wrote: »

Vanos444 wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Higher risk, higher reward. Stams don't have the pets, the endless shields, etc. It's not incorrect to say a magsorc is the easiest character to do maelstrom.

It's not that...
Magicka as a hard time pulling light and heavy attack DPS with Animation cancelling for PvE. Also, not many try or have the patience to perform those skills as a mag.
While for stamina, it's easy to perform because the boss is right in front of you.

Wut? No we don't...

The problem is the way things are set up and the set availability. Mag is very limited at the top end when it comes to sets. All specs wear the same gear, and have been for a long time, barring the addition of PFG, which is just a slightly nicer version of a stam set that has been out since forever. Add to that, we have to be incredibly judicious about our rotation so we can sustain since we can't use sustain food without losing a ton of either health or dmg, while stam can dump attribute points into health while running Lava Foot and still do insane amounts of dmg. Someone at the top either looooves stam to the exclusion of all else, or just doesn't get it when it comes to the dmg disparity.

We came close to closing the mag/stam gap with this latest patch, and we'll see how it looks once the newest batch of parses start rolling in, but stam is still the dps king for almost all content.

I agree about the sets. But stam are easy to execute. Even if you mess up your rotation. While for magicka, it's a huge DPS loss..

That's the reason, I don't like magicka builds.
Now don't get me wrong, if you only play a magSorc then things change. MagSorc are easier to execute compared to other magicka classes and stam builds.

I have a Magnb as my main and I know, how frustrating it is, compared to my stamcro...

Clearly you don't know what you're doing, because you're just making stuff up at this point? Stam is easier to weave because they're closer? lol, everyone is the same distance when they're stacking on bosses.

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

But if you can play with Rele or Lokke on Bosses, it carries you. Its the same as siroria can do.

Siroria isn't even comparable to Lokke, much less Rele.

I agree with him, I’ve found some weapons are easier to weave on then others. I don’t think it’s intentional though, I think it has something to do with the animation.

When I first started I struggled with animation cancelling big time so paid close attention. Even the skills you’re weaving plays a part.

ChunkyCat · October 2019

Swords and Axes vs Magic Sticks....

Gee-Wiz.

itsfatbass · October 2019

"Melee has more risk so that's why" is the biggest lie and misdirection ever! Melee doesnt have any more risk than ranged. There are plenty of mechanics and things in fights that pose a risk to ALL players in the raid, regardless of your positioning. The reason they're so far ahead is because zos has no idea how to balance. Each time they attempt to do it they make wild swings in the dark without a vision of the overall effects these changes make. I'm pretty sure most of the dev team needs to smoke a little less marijuana.