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It's NOT about the General META.
Ysbriel
✭✭✭✭✭
With all the recent changes that have been brought upon this game in a short period of time there has been this hug backlash against the combat team or ZOS in general.
As usual on the complaint posts there are people who are quick to attempt to shut down the posters arguments specifically with the term "META CHASER". Well lets break down
the Most Effective Tactic Available" for a moment which is what that means, it certainly does not mean the strongest, newest gear out there it means. Your
"META" might not even be my "META".
For example I play on PC and since I played on console for the longest time action games some games are hard for me to get the coordination right to play with the keyboard so I use a PS4 controller, this being said I setup a rotation simple enough to get me to about 32K DPS with my stam charactes and be able to finish the 3Mil Dummy with no help.
To achieve this with both my Stamblade and Stamsorc I was using 2 Velidredth, 5 of the good old Hundings and 5 VO. I had to tank my way so many freaking times on vHRC to get that gear. and there I had it, both characters where on the 32K with enough sustain to complete the dummy. When using both Characters i was able to damage and follow mechanics while being effective. That is my META and it was just fine, it gave me a good enough character for both pug and guild raid effective participation. And if you are wondering, I am at 1020cp, top players were able to achieve that way before 810 was a thing 2 years ago, just to give you an idea.
A lot of people want just that "effective participation" within their capabilites and the META they found to achieve this. Not everybody in this game has nimble hands to weave their way to 60k and above DPS or 16 hours a day everyday to to go back to the notepad and whatever took them weeks or months and let alone sudden changes that promtply get pulled back. Every single person in the guilds i belong to has a 40 hours a week job or kids, there some that are even older.
Being frustratred because a particular content is hard and one needs to learn the mechanics well to overcome the challenge for instance the Maelstrom Arena, which i see a lot of people complain and rant about and even bash any build that has been made to make it possible, well thats one thing. Having to feel frustrated because everytime you have a competitive PvP build,
you have at least a good enough PvE build setup, the devs decide to screw you over and over again that is not even close to being acceptable.
Final note, people who come here to claim every single person that has reached potentially high, achievement unlocking DPS numbers is a "power creep" you are not being helpful at all.
Because after any potential changes come, your complaints and attacks will only affect the people who are on the lower side of actually being able to complete things, while the top players will figure it out even from the PTS and their four man groups will continue to roll all over you like a steam roller down the line.
As usual on the complaint posts there are people who are quick to attempt to shut down the posters arguments specifically with the term "META CHASER". Well lets break down
the Most Effective Tactic Available" for a moment which is what that means, it certainly does not mean the strongest, newest gear out there it means. Your
"META" might not even be my "META".
For example I play on PC and since I played on console for the longest time action games some games are hard for me to get the coordination right to play with the keyboard so I use a PS4 controller, this being said I setup a rotation simple enough to get me to about 32K DPS with my stam charactes and be able to finish the 3Mil Dummy with no help.
To achieve this with both my Stamblade and Stamsorc I was using 2 Velidredth, 5 of the good old Hundings and 5 VO. I had to tank my way so many freaking times on vHRC to get that gear. and there I had it, both characters where on the 32K with enough sustain to complete the dummy. When using both Characters i was able to damage and follow mechanics while being effective. That is my META and it was just fine, it gave me a good enough character for both pug and guild raid effective participation. And if you are wondering, I am at 1020cp, top players were able to achieve that way before 810 was a thing 2 years ago, just to give you an idea.
A lot of people want just that "effective participation" within their capabilites and the META they found to achieve this. Not everybody in this game has nimble hands to weave their way to 60k and above DPS or 16 hours a day everyday to to go back to the notepad and whatever took them weeks or months and let alone sudden changes that promtply get pulled back. Every single person in the guilds i belong to has a 40 hours a week job or kids, there some that are even older.
Being frustratred because a particular content is hard and one needs to learn the mechanics well to overcome the challenge for instance the Maelstrom Arena, which i see a lot of people complain and rant about and even bash any build that has been made to make it possible, well thats one thing. Having to feel frustrated because everytime you have a competitive PvP build,
you have at least a good enough PvE build setup, the devs decide to screw you over and over again that is not even close to being acceptable.
Final note, people who come here to claim every single person that has reached potentially high, achievement unlocking DPS numbers is a "power creep" you are not being helpful at all.
Because after any potential changes come, your complaints and attacks will only affect the people who are on the lower side of actually being able to complete things, while the top players will figure it out even from the PTS and their four man groups will continue to roll all over you like a steam roller down the line.
7
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Austinseph1✭✭✭✭✭Whether they believe what they are doing is the right thing or not they will see in the player drops and loss of crown sales. Ill wait till last real pts notes are out but current combat swings have me feeling exhausted trying to keep up and pushing me away. Even from a simple enjoyment of completing normal content the changes are felt at pretty much every level I have played at casually and veteran. I've never seen a game make 30-60% combat changes to core components every 3 month period. Its doesn't inspire confidence that it wont continue.2 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some comforting words then, starting with some non-comforting ones:
ESO was a bit of a screw-up from the start. Fundamental game mechanics (like 'what constitues a melee attack') not explained, IIRC staff attacks scaling from weapon damage but staff skills from spell damage... andwhathaveyounot.
You have traits like weighted being removed, other traits that weren´t interesting got removed... and we all know skills get changed around a lot.
Now, for the first time actually, they are taking a fundamental look at things to balance long-term.
And that means fundamentally changing things.
We don´t even know what will happen with the CP system. (That got completely changed a while back of course, taking out cost reduction).
To be blunt; I think some people aren´t as good as they think they are. You can put on crafted sets and finish vMA. It is hard, but not that hard. You can finish every trial in the game on normal. In fact, you can finish every trial on veteran.
The only thing you maybe can´t do is complete some hardmodes, and get the very hardest achievements in the game. To me, that seems fine. Means you have something to strive for, if that´s what you want.
I guess people will have to see why they play the game. If you are playing for achievements and are expecting DPS and stats to go up, up, up... guess this isn´t the game for you at the moment. If you are looking for a PvP experience... to be honest, I don´t think PvP has changed much at all since the beginning. Screwy builds, healbots, lag, teabaggers (I have no idea how they can be 18+, do some people just stop developing?), zergs. Sometimes fun.
My friendly advice is take a break and see where things are headed.
In the words of Michael Fassbender´s David: "Sometimes to create, one must first destroy."Edited by MaleAmazon on September 25, 2019 9:12AM2 -
Frostystuff✭✭They do seem to respond, and as witness 9ver respond.
I suspect most of the pts will go through to live u changed and next patch we lll se something more sensible.
In the meantime i ll have 3 months to finish some queesting and level some alts (finally got my vMA staffs on my 40th run today which has been occupying most of my play time since the week before the orsinium event), i have not even finished elswyr.
Just hope there will be a population left0 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭With all the recent changes that have been brought upon this game in a short period of time there has been this hug backlash against the combat team or ZOS in general.
As usual on the complaint posts there are people who are quick to attempt to shut down the posters arguments specifically with the term "META CHASER". Well lets break down
the Most Effective Tactic Available" for a moment which is what that means, it certainly does not mean the strongest, newest gear out there it means. Your
"META" might not even be my "META".
For example I play on PC and since I played on console for the longest time action games some games are hard for me to get the coordination right to play with the keyboard so I use a PS4 controller, this being said I setup a rotation simple enough to get me to about 32K DPS with my stam charactes and be able to finish the 3Mil Dummy with no help.
To achieve this with both my Stamblade and Stamsorc I was using 2 Velidredth, 5 of the good old Hundings and 5 VO. I had to tank my way so many freaking times on vHRC to get that gear. and there I had it, both characters where on the 32K with enough sustain to complete the dummy. When using both Characters i was able to damage and follow mechanics while being effective. That is my META and it was just fine, it gave me a good enough character for both pug and guild raid effective participation. And if you are wondering, I am at 1020cp, top players were able to achieve that way before 810 was a thing 2 years ago, just to give you an idea.
A lot of people want just that "effective participation" within their capabilites and the META they found to achieve this. Not everybody in this game has nimble hands to weave their way to 60k and above DPS or 16 hours a day everyday to to go back to the notepad and whatever took them weeks or months and let alone sudden changes that promtply get pulled back. Every single person in the guilds i belong to has a 40 hours a week job or kids, there some that are even older.
Being frustratred because a particular content is hard and one needs to learn the mechanics well to overcome the challenge for instance the Maelstrom Arena, which i see a lot of people complain and rant about and even bash any build that has been made to make it possible, well thats one thing. Having to feel frustrated because everytime you have a competitive PvP build,
you have at least a good enough PvE build setup, the devs decide to screw you over and over again that is not even close to being acceptable.
Final note, people who come here to claim every single person that has reached potentially high, achievement unlocking DPS numbers is a "power creep" you are not being helpful at all.
Because after any potential changes come, your complaints and attacks will only affect the people who are on the lower side of actually being able to complete things, while the top players will figure it out even from the PTS and their four man groups will continue to roll all over you like a steam roller down the line.
In this case, it actually seems to be the combat team calling out the "meta chasers"
https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ 1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some of this comes down to accepting the reality that there's a couple aspects to why ZOS changes how the game works on a regular basis.
1. ZOS doesnt want the game to stagnate. This means that they use horizontal progression (often enough, "change for the sake of change") to keep the game feeling "fresh." This is why someone has to change their build every update. So even if you don't follow the end game meta, your personal meta might change. That's by design.
Yes, players eventually get tired of this. But before they reach their breaking point, they spend a lot more time grinding to get back to the same level of effectiveness as they had before, more time than they would have if they did everything and then got bored with no progression. That's more time spent in game, and that's to ZOS' benefit.
2. Power Creep at its simplest is when PVE DPS outpaces the difficulty of content. Old content becomes obsolete while new content gets prohibitively hard. Neither of those are a good thing for the longevity of a game's content. Its rather obvious when looking at the disparity between base game dungeons vs DLC dungeons, and how those are received by ESO players.
With buffs to light attacks, powerful DPS sets, and other changes, PVE DPS has largely increased since Morrowind, which was the last major across-the-board nerf of PVE DPS. There have been plenty of small, spot nerfs, but none that changed the overall trajectory for the majority of the playerbase.
If ZOS doesnt want to be trapped in that place where old content becomes obsolete and boring while new content is too challenging for the vast majority, an overall DPS nerf keeps that power creep in check.
Okay, so that's why ZOS does it.
Why doesn't it work?
Its not perfect. That's because Power Creep and Nerfs impact players unevenly depending on their level of experience and skill. Experienced players who can already complete hard content tend to benefit the most from power creep and suffer the least from nerfs. Players in progression groups tend to benefit the least from power Creep and suffer more from nerfs. There's no real way around that because all PVE content gets easier the more times you complete it.
How to change it?
We can't.
Seriously, we can't. Horizontal Progression has been ZOS' business model since One Tamriel, and it works. It really keeps players engaged in busy work so they don't get bored, and they finally quit after a very lengthy period of realization that "huh, all I'm doing is busy work after every update." In the meantime, they've been adding to the population of the game and probably spending money. And there's plenty of bright-eyed new players to replace the ones who quit.
Horizontal Progression works extraordinarily well at keeping most players busy, if not necessarily entertained, in between quarterly content releases. That's why ZOS does it.
So the constant changes?
Aren't going to stop coming.
(Yes, that's more than a little depressing.)Edited by VaranisArano on September 25, 2019 1:41PM2