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Separating PvP and PvE balance changes (yes im bringing it up again)
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Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »You do realize that even if they did separate these things, that you would still get nerfs? The DoT changes weren’t just about PvP. It was also about the fact that every single stamina build was using soul trap and that parses were way up with that and entropy, and the overall power creep. Additionally a LOT of PvE threads were asking for harder content. I know the hardcore PvErs like to blame all the nerfs on PvP but it’s simply not true.
harder content =/= nerfing skills until they are no longer viable to use.
Harder content would be adding new mechanics that force players to think, to position themselves to avoid or mitigate the most damage possible, to avoid attacks that reduce their effectiveness in combat ( no more 1-shot mechanics), etc.
To ZOS it does. Point is you can’t blame this on PvP.2 -
Dreyloch✭✭✭✭✭Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »If you watched the stream they stated the DoT nerf is for PvE diversity
But continue to blame pvp like always
However i do agree, then DoT‘s would only be useless in PvE instead of both
really? for PvE Diversity? if that's the case, why is it that it that all stamina builds are all basically the same? Why is it that they are always fiddling with magicka builds whereas it takes an eternity and a half for them to even look in stamina's general direction (except when they want to give stamina a new ability)?
I was also under the impression that the changes made to Dots was headed up by the lead of the PvP team, which is awfully suspicious if its for "PvE Diversity"
I agree with your original post, but don't start sniping at people in the same thread. Not the way to have your suggestions get legs if ya know what I mean. We have to be a unified front. I'm mainly doing PvP and only PvE when needed to get updated sets to what is the "new thing". So If I have to change EVERY character to continue my own ideals of how to play the game, then it's really really bad. So in order to keep my PvP stuff up, I need to change all my PvE too!?!? If we as a playerbase only do one style. We should only have to adjust (within reason) for that style. Not the sweeping back and forth that we're all seeing(AGAIN, agreeing with you). It's too much and it needs to stop. I've posted many times over the past 4 years (been playing since beta) that this separation needs to happen. Pretty much every single other MMO i've ever played that has PvE and PvP has found a way to do this. Someone up top at ZoS thinks we should all be able to just jump into either style on a whim. They are totally and utterly clueless."The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"2 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.
Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.
It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.
You are so wrong that most of the changes are because PvP. I could say that most of the major changes are because of PvE.
PvP players complain mainly for utility skills which do not affect so much group PvE.
so i must have imagined the weeks of outrage for the very vocal minority decrying DoTs and how they are ruining PvP because they are just so op? Or how about when they complained about how colossus was too OP because of its bash? Or how about when they complained about Sorcerer pets being too op?
Do you not see a pattern here? vocal minority complains and almost the very next patch we see nerfs to said things they complained about. Community develops new rotations and skill bars to deal with new meta, Vocal minority finds something in the new rotation to complain about until it gets nerfed.
it's disgusting how so many skills and sets have been made obsolete because of this kind of behavior.
DoTs are nerfed because PvE players are not happy with their new rotations and they dont like that gameplay and because they overperform in PvE and in PvP they are just zerg friendly.
Now the necro bash, the issue is that the necro got 50k hp. Damage was really strong but if the heallth wasnt buffed it could be tolerated. Pet sorcs, the dmage was not the problem. The targeting was. ZoS could not fix it so they nerfed them.Because I can!1 -
Matthew_Galvanus✭✭✭✭✭
✭maddiniiLuna wrote: »Hello,
I don't think that this is necessarily wrong. Having 2 groups to test those things is a good idea. However there is also some issues and some facts that weren't accounted for. First of all if it's the same skill, how would you go and have 2 groups for it? One group could say this, the other said that?
Secondly - and this is important - yes it's the pvp lead designer, but the skills were actually tested in vet pve conditions and not pvp conditions.
Those skills that were overperforming in pvp mostly knock back skills and such got their knock back removed, which is a skill that is primarily used and abused in pvp and not pve and most dots were not just doing to good in pvp but were doing too good in pve also, causing a huge gap between different players.
On the same hand I think the entire dps calculation is a bit well. Stupid. 90k dps they say. Peoples chaws drop down but they don't understand how this damage is calculated. Basically for each monster you were in combat with you get x dps and at the end everything will be added together, but this is not a true or accurate representation of your dps, because on some monsters you'd do 30k dps and on others maybe 5k. More accurate would be to calculate ether only single target dps or the average dps. It still wouldn't be perfect representation but at least more accurate.
Now that you know this, some might question, if we really were doing too much dps? The truth is - no we weren't. But where does the huge gap in dps come from? Well from those people that post 90k dps without understanding it just for being cool and from those that have special weapons like maelstrom bow and perfected sets in perfect traits.
In the end most changes make me quite pleased and happy, especially giving certain classes better abilities. Other changes were not really necessary but instead the focus should lie on how to make content more accessible for everybody.
That's my opinion.
it's more that balancing in PvE and PvP would be entirely separate from each other this way PvE isn't constantly having skils and gear adjusted to balance it in PvP and vice versa0 -
Matthew_Galvanus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »You do realize that even if they did separate these things, that you would still get nerfs? The DoT changes weren’t just about PvP. It was also about the fact that every single stamina build was using soul trap and that parses were way up with that and entropy, and the overall power creep. Additionally a LOT of PvE threads were asking for harder content. I know the hardcore PvErs like to blame all the nerfs on PvP but it’s simply not true.
harder content =/= nerfing skills until they are no longer viable to use.
Harder content would be adding new mechanics that force players to think, to position themselves to avoid or mitigate the most damage possible, to avoid attacks that reduce their effectiveness in combat ( no more 1-shot mechanics), etc.
To ZOS it does. Point is you can’t blame this on PvP.
i don't blame all of PvP, just the very vocal minority who like to *** and moan about dying because they suck at dodging or cleanse/purge0 -
Matthew_Galvanus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »If you watched the stream they stated the DoT nerf is for PvE diversity
But continue to blame pvp like always
However i do agree, then DoT‘s would only be useless in PvE instead of both
really? for PvE Diversity? if that's the case, why is it that it that all stamina builds are all basically the same? Why is it that they are always fiddling with magicka builds whereas it takes an eternity and a half for them to even look in stamina's general direction (except when they want to give stamina a new ability)?
I was also under the impression that the changes made to Dots was headed up by the lead of the PvP team, which is awfully suspicious if its for "PvE Diversity"
I agree with your original post, but don't start sniping at people in the same thread. Not the way to have your suggestions get legs if ya know what I mean. We have to be a unified front. I'm mainly doing PvP and only PvE when needed to get updated sets to what is the "new thing". So If I have to change EVERY character to continue my own ideals of how to play the game, then it's really really bad. So in order to keep my PvP stuff up, I need to change all my PvE too!?!? If we as a playerbase only do one style. We should only have to adjust (within reason) for that style. Not the sweeping back and forth that we're all seeing(AGAIN, agreeing with you). It's too much and it needs to stop. I've posted many times over the past 4 years (been playing since beta) that this separation needs to happen. Pretty much every single other MMO i've ever played that has PvE and PvP has found a way to do this. Someone up top at ZoS thinks we should all be able to just jump into either style on a whim. They are totally and utterly clueless.
i know i shouldn't, it's just hard to not lose my temper with some of these people who do very little in the way of research. ZoS says a lot of stuff that isn't true, and anyone who takes their word at face value really needs a reality check.0 -
Wolfpaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would like to see the champ system revamped to accommodate pve & pvp balance.
I would also like a qol update that adds dual specialization.
Both could greatly help balancing pve & pvp imo.0 -
Matthew_Galvanus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would like to see the champ system revamped to accommodate pve & pvp balance.
I would also like a qol update that adds dual specialization.
Both could greatly help balancing pve & pvp imo.
reworking the CP system is almost as big an undertaking as it would be to separate PvE and PvP and honestly i don't even know where to start with that0