Separating PvP and PvE balance changes (yes im bringing it up again)

Matthew_Galvanus · September 2019

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

Aurie · September 2019

@Matthew_Galvanus well said!

Matthew_Galvanus · September 2019

Aurelle1 wrote: »

@Matthew_Galvanus well said!

thank you. I'm not willing to give this up without a fight, i really feel like it'd be of great benefit to the game now

FierceSam · September 2019

I think there appears to be an underlying philosophy behind the changes - that all skills of a similar type (spammables, executes, DoTs) should have a similar power and a similar cost over all classes. That seems sensible.

They are clearly saying that the process of balancing will take a number of patches. That is a pain because it means we will all be changing up gear etc.

Why are they doing it in PvP? Because that’s where the whining comes from. Almost no one in PvE cares whether a sorc plays better or has slightly better numbers than a templar, the vast majority are playing that class because it’s fun not because it’s the meta. But in PvP a slight imbalance means that you will die more often, a single unbalanced skill means suddenly everyone ‘has’ to be an orc ice warden with Sload’s (or whatever the meta becomes). And PvP is where it becomes obvious that skill X is 5% over or under balanced really quickly.

It’s a shame that changes being made to appease the whiners will have such a painful effect on everyone else. Making it easier and cost free to swop between sets, skills, morphs and CP as you can on PTS would be a helpful start.

Heimpai · September 2019

If you watched the stream they stated the DoT nerf is for PvE diversity

But continue to blame pvp like always

However i do agree, then DoT‘s would only be useless in PvE instead of both

Foxhearted · September 2019

yes, yes, and a zillion times yes
Please consider this, ZOS

Coatmagic · September 2019

So wish the community would pull their heads out of their own little worlds and get behind this.
ZoS is just making a mess because they are too stubborn to give up on something that can never be done.

Either make a separate server or disable certain sets/skills in PvP like other games do and let everyone get on with their gaming in peace, ffs.

dagrdagaz_5912 · September 2019

GW1 and GW2 have a long history of having seperate PvP and PvE versions of some skills, with a minor difference to make them better suited for their playstyle.

Very wise imo.

So yeah, why ZoS refuses to do this ...........

Heimpai · September 2019

dagrdagaz_5912 wrote: »

GW1 and GW2 have a long history of having seperate PvP and PvE versions of some skills, with a minor difference to make them better suited for their playstyle.

Very wise imo.

So yeah, why ZoS refuses to do this ...........

FF14 does it, wish they’d come out and tell us why..I believe we deserve that much

Narvuntien · September 2019

Tl;DR

PVE and PVP literally want completely different stats and utility its not actually that hard to make something a PVP skill or a PVE skill.

PVE: DPS, DOT, Crit

PVP: Sustain, Self-healing, Burst, SD/WD, Mobility, stealth, purges

Honestly, PVE is super straight forward does it do the most damage.

Matthew_Galvanus · September 2019

Heimpai wrote: »

If you watched the stream they stated the DoT nerf is for PvE diversity

But continue to blame pvp like always

However i do agree, then DoT‘s would only be useless in PvE instead of both

really? for PvE Diversity? if that's the case, why is it that it that all stamina builds are all basically the same? Why is it that they are always fiddling with magicka builds whereas it takes an eternity and a half for them to even look in stamina's general direction (except when they want to give stamina a new ability)?

I was also under the impression that the changes made to Dots was headed up by the lead of the PvP team, which is awfully suspicious if its for "PvE Diversity"

Malyck · September 2019

Is there anyone that doesn't want this? If so, I would like to understand their reason why.

It only makes sense, yet the developers refuse to speak to the reason why they won't do this. Maybe it is not possible within the current game, or maybe they don't believe it is necessary. It seems that there is a growing divide between the PvE and PvP community about "who is responsible" for each successive nerf. One group says they are doing too much damage or that damage is out of control, while the other group says it is from whining on the forum. Who knows the truth...

I think it would be interesting to hear from the development team on this subject. One thing we can do as players is submit this topic as a question on the next ESO live.

TelvanniWizard · September 2019

This is the way it should have been from the begining.

hakan · September 2019

Yeah im tired of pve causing pvp nerfs. MagNB losing a lot of heal potential and nb in general losing most of their buffs, Morrowind sustain nerfs because it is too easy, Shield changes because people dont want healers in trials escaping trial mechanics(same with magnb heal)..

Rain_Greyraven · September 2019

I think Matt Firor wants this game to be the spiritual successor to DAoC despite Camelot Unchained already nicely filling that void. (example I hate ESO PVP but love CU) so don't expect him to make any UN-DAoC changes.

Emma_Overload · September 2019

You've got it backwards, OP. Battle Spirit should be a buff/debuff on PvE MOBs, not players.

All they have to do is get the balance right for PvP, and then they can adjust mob health and effectiveness all they want without bothering players.

Huyen · September 2019

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

Reducing DoT damage far to much? Try a bg right now for once, and be ashamed of your comment. All you see right now is sorcerers spamming their dots, and any stamina-based class spamming snipe and poison arrow. Thats all that is happening right now, because every damn DoT is so overpowered in pvp, you dont need anytthing else. I welcome this change, and I hope it hits the live servers soon.

Matthew_Galvanus · September 2019

Huyen wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

Reducing DoT damage far to much? Try a bg right now for once, and be ashamed of your comment. All you see right now is sorcerers spamming their dots, and any stamina-based class spamming snipe and poison arrow. Thats all that is happening right now, because every damn DoT is so overpowered in pvp, you dont need anytthing else. I welcome this change, and I hope it hits the live servers soon.

typical PvP player, only looks at it from the player vs player aspect, doesn't even think about what the heavy handed nerfs will do to endgame PvE content.

making some adjustments so DoTs aren't the end all be all for PvP? Sure i can live with that, but the nerfs they are proposing are going to drop the skill floor and make end game content even more difficult to complete.

Schattenfluegel · September 2019

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Huyen wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

Reducing DoT damage far to much? Try a bg right now for once, and be ashamed of your comment. All you see right now is sorcerers spamming their dots, and any stamina-based class spamming snipe and poison arrow. Thats all that is happening right now, because every damn DoT is so overpowered in pvp, you dont need anytthing else. I welcome this change, and I hope it hits the live servers soon.

typical PvP player, only looks at it from the player vs player aspect, doesn't even think about what the heavy handed nerfs will do to endgame PvE content.

making some adjustments so DoTs aren't the end all be all for PvP? Sure i can live with that, but the nerfs they are proposing are going to drop the skill floor and make end game content even more difficult to complete.

He is actually right, the Dot DPS in PvE is higher than a Spammable DPS. All Dots, Spammables and Light Attacks have to be in Line to perform good. Maybe something a little more there or less there, but not how its on the pts now. Or, generelly...50% Buffs and 70% Nerfs, these are too high percentagenumbers. Smaller Nerfsteps would have been better.

Matthew_Galvanus · September 2019

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Huyen wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

Reducing DoT damage far to much? Try a bg right now for once, and be ashamed of your comment. All you see right now is sorcerers spamming their dots, and any stamina-based class spamming snipe and poison arrow. Thats all that is happening right now, because every damn DoT is so overpowered in pvp, you dont need anytthing else. I welcome this change, and I hope it hits the live servers soon.

typical PvP player, only looks at it from the player vs player aspect, doesn't even think about what the heavy handed nerfs will do to endgame PvE content.

making some adjustments so DoTs aren't the end all be all for PvP? Sure i can live with that, but the nerfs they are proposing are going to drop the skill floor and make end game content even more difficult to complete.

He is actually right, the Dot DPS in PvE is higher than a Spammable DPS. All Dots, Spammables and Light Attacks have to be in Line to perform good. Maybe something a little more there or less there, but not how its on the pts now. Or, generelly...50% Buffs and 70% Nerfs, these are too high percentagenumbers. Smaller Nerfsteps would have been better.

Thank you. it is ridiculous how the vocal pvp minority behaves

Coatmagic · September 2019

^^ this is why we can't have nice things.

Even in a thread having nothing to do with nerfing anyone, the community choose to attack one another than request the obvious *sigh*

Balancing apples and oranges, it cannot be done, ZoS, please stop mucking about and do what needs to be done.

Bashev · September 2019

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

You are so wrong that most of the changes are because PvP. I could say that most of the major changes are because of PvE.

PvP players complain mainly for utility skills which do not affect so much group PvE.

jcm2606 · September 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

You've got it backwards, OP. Battle Spirit should be a buff/debuff on PvE MOBs, not players.

All they have to do is get the balance right for PvP, and then they can adjust mob health and effectiveness all they want without bothering players.

For once, something we agree on. This approach is really the one that's needed. Balance for PvP, adjust for PvE, not the other way 'round.

Heimpai · September 2019

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Huyen wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

Reducing DoT damage far to much? Try a bg right now for once, and be ashamed of your comment. All you see right now is sorcerers spamming their dots, and any stamina-based class spamming snipe and poison arrow. Thats all that is happening right now, because every damn DoT is so overpowered in pvp, you dont need anytthing else. I welcome this change, and I hope it hits the live servers soon.

typical PvP player, only looks at it from the player vs player aspect, doesn't even think about what the heavy handed nerfs will do to endgame PvE content.

making some adjustments so DoTs aren't the end all be all for PvP? Sure i can live with that, but the nerfs they are proposing are going to drop the skill floor and make end game content even more difficult to complete.

He is actually right, the Dot DPS in PvE is higher than a Spammable DPS. All Dots, Spammables and Light Attacks have to be in Line to perform good. Maybe something a little more there or less there, but not how its on the pts now. Or, generelly...50% Buffs and 70% Nerfs, these are too high percentagenumbers. Smaller Nerfsteps would have been better.

Thank you. it is ridiculous how the vocal pvp minority behaves

Idk about the others but I’m tired..Even when the nerfs are a result of pve we still get blamed..Some are so nice they kick us from trials/dungeons after seeing we pvp a lot..

1 pvp event got replaced with a pve event so we only had 1 instead of 2 yet pve‘rs still complained about having to do a pvp event..oh no, 1 for the year..

I do both but main pvp and all the constant adapting to both is getting tiresome..Yes they should have separated pvp/pve long ago..Now they have no idea what direction to go.

Emmagoldman · September 2019

Regardless if pvp or pve, at this point, the games balance should be made in small steps instead of huge sweeping changes. This patch is pve centered and really hitting hard depending on your preference. ( though I feel these nerfs are a good thing overall) In general, while some ability changes are pvp focused, the overall direction for the last patches has been pve centered with standardizing classes along dps parses as a tool to adjust skills.

The idea that the pve community is some type of united front is not the true reality and ignore the differences that all communities have. This patch is presenting this dilemma and bringing the contradictions to surface

There is a part of the community that wants the open world to be more then cheese sauce. They get a new dlc, step out into the world and map excited. They find the game play is laughably easy and boring. There is zero challenge and the dlcs offer little besides a story. Dlcs keep stacking up but the lack of challenge makes the dlc just another chore chart and pizza run from some not in distress. They want old dungeons to still have a tad bit of challenge and healers to have a purpose. For them, the game is overturned and the lack of challenge is disappointing

Yet another group that doesn’t see an issue with power creep. A critique from the pvp side towards this group is that they aren’t concerned about balance. Huge dmg, unlimited sustain, and getting through as much as possible as fast as possible is the focus. Years ago, 30-40k parses were viewed as top tier. We now have builds hitting off at 100k and somehow, this hasn’t been alarming. They see new sets come out that are obviously way too strong and don’t complain. Once hitting huge numbers, the thought of coming back down is unbearable. 70 k, oh no!,,,

There is also a division between normalizing classing, in which each class, both stam and mag, should parse the same, all tank at the same ability, heal, and of course each race should pull similar numbers. So why can’t my magden dps the same with an ice staff? Why cant my magden, hit like mydk, which should hit like a magsorc equal to my stam by. This class has an execute, we need one too!

On the other end is a group that wants diversity and uniqueness. So what if a class stands out. Some abilities should stand on their own and effects by very specific. Wings were awesome and fun, third bar on sorc, etc.

In short, good luck even if you could balance pvp and pve separately making people happy. These forums will still run full of complaints. For whoever tries to make the “community” happy, good luck!

Vapirko · September 2019

You do realize that even if they did separate these things, that you would still get nerfs? The DoT changes weren’t just about PvP. It was also about the fact that every single stamina build was using soul trap and that parses were way up with that and entropy, and the overall power creep. Additionally a LOT of PvE threads were asking for harder content. I know the hardcore PvErs like to blame all the nerfs on PvP but it’s simply not true.

GreenhaloX · September 2019

I been harping about this for years. Other folks have been harping about this for years. I think they will implement flying mounts before they separate PvE and PvP entirely (which should be the right thing to do.) Oh, but it's power creeping (sarcastically speaking.) Hell yeah, give us the damn power creep. It's freaking character forward progression! With damn final bosses of vet trials with 80 mil+ hp, give me the damn power creep! Ha ha

Matthew_Galvanus · September 2019

Bashev wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

You are so wrong that most of the changes are because PvP. I could say that most of the major changes are because of PvE.

PvP players complain mainly for utility skills which do not affect so much group PvE.

so i must have imagined the weeks of outrage for the very vocal minority decrying DoTs and how they are ruining PvP because they are just so op? Or how about when they complained about how colossus was too OP because of its bash? Or how about when they complained about Sorcerer pets being too op?

Do you not see a pattern here? vocal minority complains and almost the very next patch we see nerfs to said things they complained about. Community develops new rotations and skill bars to deal with new meta, Vocal minority finds something in the new rotation to complain about until it gets nerfed.

it's disgusting how so many skills and sets have been made obsolete because of this kind of behavior.

Matthew_Galvanus · September 2019

Heimpai wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Huyen wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

As most people who watch or test the latest changes on the PTR have already said, ZoS has once again had a kneejerk reaction and (in my opinion) overcorrected on DoT damage; reducing their damage by far too much and causing another big meta shift. This wouldn't be such a big issue if we hadn't already had a major change in the meta less than two months ago. Throwing in so many major changes all at once and then reverting or making some skills less effective than they were before within a timespan of only a month is not good for the game. If you don't give players time to adjust and learn the new meta, or adjust skills over a long period of the time so the meta changes gradually, you put the players in a position where they begin to stop having fun because they are constantly having to rebuild their character from the ground up and are always fearing the axe constantly looming over their heads, making them anxious about whether or not the next big patch is going to destroy their playstyle or not.

Now a big part of this is problem is caused by the fact that we only have one balance team and the changes that are made affect both PvE and PvP, this is a substantial issue because it is literally impossible to balance one without hurting the other. Take for example the current changes in the PTR, these reductions in DoT damage were headed up (as far as i know) by the lead of the PvP team because they were overperforming. Now if we were balancing PvE and PvP separately this would be a nonissue to change because what they changed in PvP wouldn't affect PvE, but unfortunately that isn't how things are run right now. By drastically reducing the damage for these skills for PvP, they have effectively crippled another playstyle for PvE, this coming after the fact they already crippled a lot of playstyles after Scalebreaker went live. The biggest problem with this, lies in the fact that almost all changes made to skill damage, or set effects is primarily because it is overperforming in PvP, but because the two aren't separate, it ends up reducing the overall dps in PvE, making end game content like Trials, DLC dungeons, etc more difficult. It lowers the skill floor and thus turns players away from the game because it is so much more difficult to master a class.

It's because of this that i am (yet again) suggesting the formation of two balance teams, one for PvE, and one for PvP. If we separate the two modes so that changes to skills, sets, etc affect only one and not the other then the threat of having a playstyle made ineffective becomes substantially lessened. Not only that but it will allow them to raise the skill floor to a manageable level while still ensuring that difficulty is consistent without having to hurt another aspect of the game to do so. They already have a very basic form of this in PvP via Battlespirit, but it isn't enough. A change like this needs to be done for the health and longevity of the game. The game isn't in a tough position like it had been when it first released, it is incredibly successful despite the serious (but fixable) flaws. At this point, separating PvE and PvP would only make the game better as people would have a much easier time learning one and then the other. More players would join and more money would be coming into the game, allowing ZoS to make even more amazing content.

Reducing DoT damage far to much? Try a bg right now for once, and be ashamed of your comment. All you see right now is sorcerers spamming their dots, and any stamina-based class spamming snipe and poison arrow. Thats all that is happening right now, because every damn DoT is so overpowered in pvp, you dont need anytthing else. I welcome this change, and I hope it hits the live servers soon.

typical PvP player, only looks at it from the player vs player aspect, doesn't even think about what the heavy handed nerfs will do to endgame PvE content.

making some adjustments so DoTs aren't the end all be all for PvP? Sure i can live with that, but the nerfs they are proposing are going to drop the skill floor and make end game content even more difficult to complete.

He is actually right, the Dot DPS in PvE is higher than a Spammable DPS. All Dots, Spammables and Light Attacks have to be in Line to perform good. Maybe something a little more there or less there, but not how its on the pts now. Or, generelly...50% Buffs and 70% Nerfs, these are too high percentagenumbers. Smaller Nerfsteps would have been better.

Thank you. it is ridiculous how the vocal pvp minority behaves

Idk about the others but I’m tired..Even when the nerfs are a result of pve we still get blamed..Some are so nice they kick us from trials/dungeons after seeing we pvp a lot..

1 pvp event got replaced with a pve event so we only had 1 instead of 2 yet pve‘rs still complained about having to do a pvp event..oh no, 1 for the year..

I do both but main pvp and all the constant adapting to both is getting tiresome..Yes they should have separated pvp/pve long ago..Now they have no idea what direction to go.

it wouldn't be such an issue if it didn't feel like whatever the vocal minority cries about gets nerfed almost immediately. There is more to balancing a game than just nerfing a skill until its no longer used in one or both forms of gameplay.

they could have adjusted the damage slightly and reduced the effectiveness of DoTs in pvp via battlespirit, but they instead chose to cut damage for them across the board by about 60%.

that is an absolutely ridiculous nerf

Matthew_Galvanus · September 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

You do realize that even if they did separate these things, that you would still get nerfs? The DoT changes weren’t just about PvP. It was also about the fact that every single stamina build was using soul trap and that parses were way up with that and entropy, and the overall power creep. Additionally a LOT of PvE threads were asking for harder content. I know the hardcore PvErs like to blame all the nerfs on PvP but it’s simply not true.

harder content =/= nerfing skills until they are no longer viable to use.

Harder content would be adding new mechanics that force players to think, to position themselves to avoid or mitigate the most damage possible, to avoid attacks that reduce their effectiveness in combat ( no more 1-shot mechanics), etc.

maddiniiLuna · September 2019

Hello,

I don't think that this is necessarily wrong. Having 2 groups to test those things is a good idea. However there is also some issues and some facts that weren't accounted for. First of all if it's the same skill, how would you go and have 2 groups for it? One group could say this, the other said that?

Secondly - and this is important - yes it's the pvp lead designer, but the skills were actually tested in vet pve conditions and not pvp conditions.

Those skills that were overperforming in pvp mostly knock back skills and such got their knock back removed, which is a skill that is primarily used and abused in pvp and not pve and most dots were not just doing to good in pvp but were doing too good in pve also, causing a huge gap between different players.

On the same hand I think the entire dps calculation is a bit well. Stupid. 90k dps they say. Peoples chaws drop down but they don't understand how this damage is calculated. Basically for each monster you were in combat with you get x dps and at the end everything will be added together, but this is not a true or accurate representation of your dps, because on some monsters you'd do 30k dps and on others maybe 5k. More accurate would be to calculate ether only single target dps or the average dps. It still wouldn't be perfect representation but at least more accurate.

Now that you know this, some might question, if we really were doing too much dps? The truth is - no we weren't. But where does the huge gap in dps come from? Well from those people that post 90k dps without understanding it just for being cool and from those that have special weapons like maelstrom bow and perfected sets in perfect traits.

In the end most changes make me quite pleased and happy, especially giving certain classes better abilities. Other changes were not really necessary but instead the focus should lie on how to make content more accessible for everybody.

That's my opinion.