ZOS, the playerbase has made it clear that flat dps nerfs aren't acceptable, so stop it

Skullstachio · September 2019

If I may point out a suggestion, maybe The cost of abilities should have a base value and Increase when a threshold is reached on the resource it uses. Basically, Make Ability costs have a base value and that base value scales accordingly and increases/decreases the cost of that ability when it’s resource reaches a marginal number.

In short: DPS/Resource scaling.

Ability costs should also scale to the Damage per second of abilities, low DPS = Less resources used. High DPS = High Resource Cost. A high ability cost should be the indication of just how powerful that ability can be, while a less powerful move costs less which indicates it’s possible spammability to compensate for lack of damage(especially if it comes down to instant damage abilities.)

Darkenarlol · September 2019

flat dps nerf will lead to nothing but

decrease the amount of med-skilled players in vet content

you can easily take someone with barely 30k

when you can parse 50+ on the encounter

but you won't take same guy with now barely 20

when you struggle to make ~35 yourself

just *sorry low dps l2p bb* situation

TirantLoBlanch · September 2019

it´s not only a gap between good and bad players. It´s the gap between profesional players and mere mortals having a life. If everyone had eight hours to beat a skeleton at day, there will be any problem.
I could even consider specializing in a class if they did not *** two of them randomly every month.

Reinvent yourself es a player can be fun and challenging. But first you have to invent yourself. And there is no time, because the changes are too much and too fast.

Do maybe the new come will not see the difference and the veteran can adapt, but the people one year old in the game simply had no chance to catch a whole picture that changes every month

drkfrontiers · September 2019

MasterSpatula wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

I'm not up on the PTS changes and haven't seen the data on what the results will be yet. But I do know that the last two years have been a string of attempts to address the excesses of the few by punishing the many who are not guilty of those excesses. This is a thing that you do when you're bad.

Simple solution it seems would have every skill and ability damage have a ceiling.

Top players hit the ceiling but cannot get higher. e.g 100k

Average players do not loose out because they will struggle to reach ceiling anyway.

LedJack · September 2019

Such negativity. You're all looking at it the wrong way. Every three months you get a brand new game...

And if you have ESO plus, over the years it may only amount to the price of a used car, a fantastic deal!

reprosal · September 2019

LedJack wrote: »

Such negativity. You're all looking at it the wrong way. Every three months you get a brand new game...

And if you have ESO plus, over the years it may only amount to the price of a used car, a fantastic deal!

Used cars are more predictable than ZOS combat changes.

lemonizzle · September 2019

In my opinion, animation canceling has to be abolished. It would not only solve dps ceiling problems, but technical ones as well. Get your above average player, who runs the correct build, knows where to lay it, knows to reapply dots on cooldown ideally, and yet in trial environment does 40-50k dps instead of 90k.. where does so much dps come from? Aside perfecting cp and rotation, having superior animation canceling 'skills'. See those top parse videos on youtube, and veteran trial runs - 10 players standing in a group and having an epileptic seizure. You know when your average quester will reach that level of spamming, firing multiple abilities at once.... Which leads to the server having to calculate so much more in 1 second.
Since Zos really want to cut down ability and skill impact on performance, maybe try to avoid "not seeing the forest from the tree in front". Do not nerf the damage of our characters and builds, but make it so that it is not required for harder content to master a finger-jerking gimmick that was easier to make into a "feature" than addressing and removing it altogether.

MJallday · September 2019

MojaveHeld wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

no, one of the best guilds in the world pulling that off is in no way outside the reasonable window. If such runs were the norm for vMoL it would be, but this extreme exception in no way indicates that dps is too high currently.

And this is the problem. You’ve got one off exceptions doing that , and ZOS then treats that as “kill everything with fire”

There are a lot of players that struggle to complete vAA let alone VMOL.

The way round this is not to nerf players but introduce harder new content

Zos are still killing it

SpiderCultist · September 2019

so 100k DPS is acceptable, isnt it?

Mitrenga · September 2019

TelvanniWizard · September 2019

lemonizzle wrote: »

In my opinion, animation canceling has to be abolished. It would not only solve dps ceiling problems, but technical ones as well. Get your above average player, who runs the correct build, knows where to lay it, knows to reapply dots on cooldown ideally, and yet in trial environment does 40-50k dps instead of 90k.. where does so much dps come from? Aside perfecting cp and rotation, having superior animation canceling 'skills'. See those top parse videos on youtube, and veteran trial runs - 10 players standing in a group and having an epileptic seizure. You know when your average quester will reach that level of spamming, firing multiple abilities at once.... Which leads to the server having to calculate so much more in 1 second.
Since Zos really want to cut down ability and skill impact on performance, maybe try to avoid "not seeing the forest from the tree in front". Do not nerf the damage of our characters and builds, but make it so that it is not required for harder content to master a finger-jerking gimmick that was easier to make into a "feature" than addressing and removing it altogether.

This. Animation cancelling has to go. Then they will be able to start balancing the game.

BNOC · September 2019

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

That is the exception that proves the rule. It is possible in most games, given enough experience and enough testing to find a build that the vast majority of the player base would never work out and wouldn't understand if you gave it to them. Most of our guild is nowhere near that and are still struggling on any vet trial, we are learning and adapting to the last changes, this is just going to make it more difficult and remove some of the fun.

Remember that this is our leisure time, we do it to have fun not become frustrated that it's just too difficult. Frustrated players are easy to split into two camps, those who will persevere and adapt, but even they will never be able to return to levels they previously had, and those, the vast majority, who will say screw this and go play something else.

I'm ok at this game, but not an expert, I was an expert in my previous game, Star Trek Online, and where most would struggle to hit 20-30K DPS and good players would get 100K, my build was achieving over a million DPS burst and over 200K sustained. Should they then nerf the entire game because someone with 9 years experience and every legendary item in the game found a way to push DPS to its limits? Even after I shared the build only a couple of guys could get close, most couldn't afford the gear to even try it.

So because one group of extremely talented and well-geared players can manage to pull off a fast dungeon or trial is no basis for nerfing the fun for everyone else.

I would posit that these changes will be dialled back after testing on PTS, if not then I see trouble ahead.

You are not entitled to compete and or complete, just because you own the game.

Until you said let's wait and see, all you talked about was entitlement.

Those that persevere and adapt won't return to the level that they came from, of course.
Those that don't, don't deserve to be competing with those same players in endgame content, simple as that - Good luck to them on other games which almost all adopt the same stance on endgame and require just as much or actually, usually much more work than ESO to be competitive.

aetherial_heavenn · September 2019

vgabor wrote: »

As many people multiple times said, the main problem is not the power creep or increasing dps numbers, but the ever widening gap between floor and ceiling. While the top groups simply breeze through the content, your average player has much more difficulty clearing vet content. Just go to a vet crag trial pug and see what's the pug dps there, it's not something which really need to be nerfed...

Flat dps nerfs not gonna do anything good, if ZOS want to solve the "dps in the sky" issue, they need to make nerf in a way which cuts top dps much more than average players dps, to bring the ceiling closer to the floor. Which would require a bit more thoughtful approach, like actually looking at the trial logs and analyse what the major sources of the differences in the dps between top and average groups, and find measurements which would affect the type of damages more prevalent in top groups.

One very radical idea as an example, taking that light attack weaving contribute to much bigger part of the damage in top groups than in average player groups is to either put the light attack under the GCD which would effectively remove light attack weaving or drastically cut down the light attack damage to be like 10-15% of the normal one if there was a skill cast in the previous 1-2 seconds. Steps like this would reduce the gap between floor and ceiling but since they would cause a very loud protest from influencer top players, they never going to happen...

My bold for emphasis: A bunch of us say this frequently

Then a bunch say the new content (VTrials hard mode) would be unachievable without the 100k dps achieved by necro stacking and perfect LA weaving.

Then another bunch say LA weaving 'raises the floor' because light attack /one click spam is what new players do so they should get more damage from clicking to make dungeons accessible. (I like your suggestion because it counters this argument.)

Then it goes around again.

Meanwhile people with fast brains but slow fingers (ie can learn best skill/set combos but can't LA weave due to physical shortcomings) people with bad lag (have you tried weaving with oceanic ping?) and people who love difficult group content and are prepared to practice but cannot play 15 hours a week with the same 11 people to 'git gud' all get left further behind.

I would implement your suggestion in a heartbeat. I would also introduce story mode for the mouse clickers/play how I want players. And I would retune the last years' trials down to be achievable by the top 10% of players...not just 36 people. (The number who have got vSS no death speedrun hardmode done is 3 groups as far as i know.)

Then new players, progression players, high ping players would all be happier.

The gap between progression players and those who can complete high end content has got silly. And it's no longer a case of practice and get good and you can close the gap. It's now a case of live near the server, play the latest FOTM class, have the reflexes of an elite athlete, and be wealthy enough to have the latest mouse keyboard and PC. Not a good direction for the long term viability of the game in my opinion.

Emma_Overload · September 2019

Where did all the guys go who were constantly complaining about "power creep"? I'm really curious...

The forum seems like it has multiple personality disorder!

p00tx · September 2019

Eirinin wrote: »

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

No. We just won't run with healers, everyone will slap a self heal or two on their bars, and it'll be three dps and a tank.

This exactly. Damage was so high this patch, it actually started to feel okay bringing a healer into content. We could afford to lose one dps in exchange for heals because two of us combined were hitting nearly 200k and could still easily burn through almost anything. The healer became a nice luxury that allowed us to focus more on the burn and less on self heals. Now, we're going to be back to square one where we need 3 dps to achieve the same burn, especially for timed achievements.

Minyassa · September 2019

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

This is like judging the average person's running skills based on Usain Bolt's new record, and deciding everyone is just too darn fast now.

idk · September 2019

OP has ignored much of the playerbase has complained about the power creep. Granted that some mistakenly blamed CP when most of the power creep came from changes Zos made every 3 months. It trivializes content that has been out for awhile.

So it makes sense that Zos would reduce our total damage to bring it back in line where it should be.

Nyladreas · September 2019

vgabor wrote: »

As many people multiple times said, the main problem is not the power creep or increasing dps numbers, but the ever widening gap between floor and ceiling. While the top groups simply breeze through the content, your average player has much more difficulty clearing vet content. Just go to a vet crag trial pug and see what's the pug dps there, it's not something which really need to be nerfed...

Flat dps nerfs not gonna do anything good, if ZOS want to solve the "dps in the sky" issue, they need to make nerf in a way which cuts top dps much more than average players dps, to bring the ceiling closer to the floor. Which would require a bit more thoughtful approach, like actually looking at the trial logs and analyse what the major sources of the differences in the dps between top and average groups, and find measurements which would affect the type of damages more prevalent in top groups.

One very radical idea as an example, taking that light attack weaving contribute to much bigger part of the damage in top groups than in average player groups is to either put the light attack under the GCD which would effectively remove light attack weaving or drastically cut down the light attack damage to be like 10-15% of the normal one if there was a skill cast in the previous 1-2 seconds. Steps like this would reduce the gap between floor and ceiling but since they would cause a very loud protest from influencer top players, they never going to happen...

I'd love to see this one day. And honestly, who cares about the players at the top, the small percentage? Vast majority of players would be happy and welcome the change. That's how it should be.

leepalmer95 · September 2019

People: Cry about nerf to dps

Also people: Straight out ignore mechanics of fights because of how stupid dps is.

You dont have to be stronger every patch, I know you all enjoy watching content get easier because of changes/ sets that come instead of just getting better to complete the content.

mairwen85 · September 2019

rotaugen454 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Tastes great!
Less filling!

(Old timer commercial, for all you kids)

That's an "old timer" commercial?

How old does that make me then?

As old as me.

Or as young as me.

mairwen85 · September 2019

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

Yes. Taking longer to kill bosses means healer is more useful than before, what with all the one shots we'll have a harder time skipping over... Oh wait, better take that extra dps afterall.

No... No it won't make healers any more relevant at all. Tank in bogdan, 3*dps with self heals - - bis.

p00tx · September 2019

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

vgabor wrote: »

As many people multiple times said, the main problem is not the power creep or increasing dps numbers, but the ever widening gap between floor and ceiling. While the top groups simply breeze through the content, your average player has much more difficulty clearing vet content. Just go to a vet crag trial pug and see what's the pug dps there, it's not something which really need to be nerfed...

Flat dps nerfs not gonna do anything good, if ZOS want to solve the "dps in the sky" issue, they need to make nerf in a way which cuts top dps much more than average players dps, to bring the ceiling closer to the floor. Which would require a bit more thoughtful approach, like actually looking at the trial logs and analyse what the major sources of the differences in the dps between top and average groups, and find measurements which would affect the type of damages more prevalent in top groups.

One very radical idea as an example, taking that light attack weaving contribute to much bigger part of the damage in top groups than in average player groups is to either put the light attack under the GCD which would effectively remove light attack weaving or drastically cut down the light attack damage to be like 10-15% of the normal one if there was a skill cast in the previous 1-2 seconds. Steps like this would reduce the gap between floor and ceiling but since they would cause a very loud protest from influencer top players, they never going to happen...

My bold for emphasis: A bunch of us say this frequently

Then a bunch say the new content (VTrials hard mode) would be unachievable without the 100k dps achieved by necro stacking and perfect LA weaving.

Then another bunch say LA weaving 'raises the floor' because light attack /one click spam is what new players do so they should get more damage from clicking to make dungeons accessible. (I like your suggestion because it counters this argument.)

Then it goes around again.

Meanwhile people with fast brains but slow fingers (ie can learn best skill/set combos but can't LA weave due to physical shortcomings) people with bad lag (have you tried weaving with oceanic ping?) and people who love difficult group content and are prepared to practice but cannot play 15 hours a week with the same 11 people to 'git gud' all get left further behind.

I would implement your suggestion in a heartbeat. I would also introduce story mode for the mouse clickers/play how I want players. And I would retune the last years' trials down to be achievable by the top 10% of players...not just 36 people. (The number who have got vSS no death speedrun hardmode done is 3 groups as far as i know.)

Then new players, progression players, high ping players would all be happier.

The gap between progression players and those who can complete high end content has got silly. And it's no longer a case of practice and get good and you can close the gap. It's now a case of live near the server, play the latest FOTM class, have the reflexes of an elite athlete, and be wealthy enough to have the latest mouse keyboard and PC. Not a good direction for the long term viability of the game in my opinion.

We manage to attain nearly the same dps and complete the same content on console as your top guys on PC, all without the help of the top machine with the best accessories, and while having sometimes half the connection speed PC typically enjoys. We all manage to light attack weave just fine as well. Getting rid of light attacks is not going to suddenly make unskilled players better at the game. There is no magic ingredient that will suddenly get everyone silver and purple skins. However, the desire to improve and actual practice WILL help. That's the only real difference. Those who are completing the content and gaining leaderboard spots do so because we put in the time and the effort. That's it.

SpacemanSpiff1 · September 2019

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

naw it'll just incentivize 3 dps groups even more. you can't heal a 1-shot, more dps can lessen the number of 1-shots.

quadraxis666 · September 2019

Marcus684 wrote: »

Across the board dps nerfs are really the only was to combat the power creep that has been allowed to run unchecked for years. It just means that dungeon and trial groups will have to start dealing with some mechanics that they’ve been able to avoid by burning down bosses quickly. It’s not the end of the world.

Across the board dps nerfs completely devalue the champion points that make it possible to begin with. Lol. Hilariously bad cycle this game goes through...

Runkorko · September 2019

khajiitNPC wrote: »

The player base is furious huh? Interesting. You mean the forum goers are furious. Most of us will roll with the changes. Do some of them suck? Yeah. But this is only PTS cycle 1. More can change. Maybe it’s time to sign off for a while, get your bearings. Go have fun in real life. Come back see if you still like it, if not find a game that suits you.

You rly think PTS feedback MAY change things?
Hardly.
If devs decide, they will change it.
Mine, yours, forums/pts feedbacks means nothing to them.
Fot good or bad they do what they like.

MLGProPlayer · September 2019

Power creep was a problem and it needed to be addressed.

Did they go too far with the nerfs? Probably. But PTS just started. Hopefully they dial back some of the nerfs

MLGProPlayer · September 2019

Eirinin wrote: »

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

No. We just won't run with healers, everyone will slap a self heal or two on their bars, and it'll be three dps and a tank.

That's the current meta. And you can get away with it because 3x DPS can bypass almost all mechanics.

itscompton · September 2019

Keylun wrote: »

If you watched the stream, it seems the combat changes were from the Lead combat PvP designers who don’t consider the PvE side

The thing is these changes suck for PvP as well. Healing and mitigation are largely untouched while everything except direct damage skills were nerfed into the ground. And even some of those took a big hit such as Dizzying losing its stun and 16% of its damage.
It's going to be incredibly boring when the only way to take someone out is to time a stun/burst combo after they are completely out of resources.
Expect people running around towers/trees/boulders for hours on end to be the norm once this hits. It's a stupid play style and strong single target DOTs were the only effective tool that's curtailed it. Now with the super Nerf to those on top of the insane damage reduction/cost increase of AOE DOTs it's going to be nearly impossible to kill someone that kites to constantly lose LOS.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · September 2019

I wouldn't worry about it. It'll all change again in U25.

Agenericname · September 2019

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

That's adorable.