ZOS, the playerbase has made it clear that flat dps nerfs aren't acceptable, so stop it

MojaveHeld · September 2019

Vet trials groups are furious right now. Making us adjust our rotation and adapt to a new, but equally as good one, is one thing. But just flat out nerfing the amount of dps? Completely unacceptable. That idea was always a non-starter. So who on earth thought it was okay to clearly aim for doing exactly that with the latest design changes? This wasn't a direction the playerbase was willing to go, so whoever at ZOS thought this was a good idea probably shouldn't have a job anymore. Absolutely despicable. The only way to fix it is to admit you were wrong and immediately scrap these plans. Hopefully ZOS will come to its senses and do just that, but most of us aren't real hopeful.

wavingblue · September 2019

Meh, the playerbase made it clear to ZOS multi-bidding wasn't ready for primetime nor really wanted at many levels by many people on many different threads.. they did it anyways.

khajiitNPC · September 2019

The player base is furious huh? Interesting. You mean the forum goers are furious. Most of us will roll with the changes. Do some of them suck? Yeah. But this is only PTS cycle 1. More can change. Maybe it’s time to sign off for a while, get your bearings. Go have fun in real life. Come back see if you still like it, if not find a game that suits you.

Marcus684 · September 2019

Across the board dps nerfs are really the only was to combat the power creep that has been allowed to run unchecked for years. It just means that dungeon and trial groups will have to start dealing with some mechanics that they’ve been able to avoid by burning down bosses quickly. It’s not the end of the world.

tmbrinks · September 2019

Ironically... patch after patch people complain about "nerfs" Yet DPS seems to go up most patches

(it may not this one, I don't know... haven't tested yet)

VaranisArano · September 2019

tmbrinks wrote: »

Ironically... patch after patch people complain about "nerfs" Yet DPS seems to go up most patches

(it may not this one, I don't know... haven't tested yet)

Generally speaking, DPS at the top tier goes up, while progression groups feel the brunt of nerfs. So depending on your perspective as a player, both are true.

Skullstachio · September 2019

Clearly we need a new combat designer because “Left, Right and center,” Mistakes are being made.

Like Boneyard for example in this pts patch note: Instead of Increasing it’s cost and reducing damage, Why not just reduce the damage but leave the cost as it is.

Because as far as I am concerned, an active ability should Only have its ability cost increased if its damage numbers are high, but if it has low damage numbers, then the cost should be reduced. But instead, they just make one butchered mess that results in a raging community that they possibly won’t even listen to. (It’s basically Todd Howard all over again.)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YPN0qhSyWy8

Mathius_Mordred · September 2019

Gives less, costs more, that just about sums up these changes.

rotaugen454 · September 2019

Tastes great!
Less filling!

(Old timer commercial, for all you kids)

tmbrinks · September 2019

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Tastes great!
Less filling!

(Old timer commercial, for all you kids)

That's an "old timer" commercial?

How old does that make me then?

rotaugen454 · September 2019

tmbrinks wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Tastes great!
Less filling!

(Old timer commercial, for all you kids)

That's an "old timer" commercial?

How old does that make me then?

As old as me.

ShellaSunshine · September 2019

The changes haven't been that bad. Just adapt. It's not that hard.

FierceSam · September 2019

given its PTS v1, why not give constructive feedback, which might have some effect.

Going rage quit at this point seems somewhat counterproductive.

MojaveHeld · September 2019

FierceSam wrote: »

given its PTS v1, why not give constructive feedback, which might have some effect.

Going rage quit at this point seems somewhat counterproductive.

This is the constructive feedback. Going for flat nerfs overall is so monumentally bad that the only constructive response to it is to point out its sheer stupidity and advise the immediate withdrawal of these changes.

ShellaSunshine · September 2019

MojaveHeld wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

given its PTS v1, why not give constructive feedback, which might have some effect.

Going rage quit at this point seems somewhat counterproductive.

This is the constructive feedback. Going for flat nerfs overall is so monumentally bad that the only constructive response to it is to point out its sheer stupidity and advise the immediate withdrawal of these changes.

Lol balancing a game never ends and if you cannot adapt then maybe this isn't the game for you.

None of the supposed nerfs has ever affected my gameplay in the last 4 years of playing this game.

TequilaFire · September 2019

Nope just continue to stand in the Rosey Lion and pretend the mead is real!

MojaveHeld · September 2019

ShellaSunshine wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

given its PTS v1, why not give constructive feedback, which might have some effect.

Going rage quit at this point seems somewhat counterproductive.

This is the constructive feedback. Going for flat nerfs overall is so monumentally bad that the only constructive response to it is to point out its sheer stupidity and advise the immediate withdrawal of these changes.

Lol balancing a game never ends and if you cannot adapt then maybe this isn't the game for you.

None of the supposed nerfs has ever affected my gameplay in the last 4 years of playing this game.

Been adapting for 3+ years now. Never seen a proposed change this monumentally stupid. Usually, when they nerf one thing, they buff something else. With these patch notes, it's just flat-out major nerfs with nothing to compensate for them. No way to adapt to that, because it's so incredibly stupid that even beginning game designers know that's not an okay approach to take. The fault is 100% on ZOS here, they broke a cardinal rule of game design, and showed their complete disdain for their own playerbase in doing so.

WrathOfInnos · September 2019

I don’t mind meta shifts, and changing skills/gear/class every few months, but I agree that this patch looks disappointing. There’s nothing to shift to if everything is getting weaker (exceptions being maybe Purifying Light crit and the new Bound Armaments).

norrisnick · September 2019

MojaveHeld wrote: »

ShellaSunshine wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

given its PTS v1, why not give constructive feedback, which might have some effect.

Going rage quit at this point seems somewhat counterproductive.

This is the constructive feedback. Going for flat nerfs overall is so monumentally bad that the only constructive response to it is to point out its sheer stupidity and advise the immediate withdrawal of these changes.

Lol balancing a game never ends and if you cannot adapt then maybe this isn't the game for you.

None of the supposed nerfs has ever affected my gameplay in the last 4 years of playing this game.

Been adapting for 3+ years now. Never seen a proposed change this monumentally stupid. Usually, when they nerf one thing, they buff something else. With these patch notes, it's just flat-out nerfs with nothing to compensate for them. No way to adapt to that, because it's so incredibly stupid that even beginning game designers know that's not an okay approach to take. The fault is 100% on ZOS here, they broke a cardinal, rule of game design and showed their complete disdain for their own playerbase in doing so.

When the problem they are trying to fix is dmg that has gotten completely out of hand what do you suggest? Buff something not currently used (a la soultrap and entropy) to shift the problem but not fix it?

mikemacon · September 2019

LOL.

MojaveHeld · September 2019

norrisnick wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

ShellaSunshine wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

given its PTS v1, why not give constructive feedback, which might have some effect.

Going rage quit at this point seems somewhat counterproductive.

This is the constructive feedback. Going for flat nerfs overall is so monumentally bad that the only constructive response to it is to point out its sheer stupidity and advise the immediate withdrawal of these changes.

Lol balancing a game never ends and if you cannot adapt then maybe this isn't the game for you.

None of the supposed nerfs has ever affected my gameplay in the last 4 years of playing this game.

Been adapting for 3+ years now. Never seen a proposed change this monumentally stupid. Usually, when they nerf one thing, they buff something else. With these patch notes, it's just flat-out nerfs with nothing to compensate for them. No way to adapt to that, because it's so incredibly stupid that even beginning game designers know that's not an okay approach to take. The fault is 100% on ZOS here, they broke a cardinal, rule of game design and showed their complete disdain for their own playerbase in doing so.

When the problem they are trying to fix is dmg that has gotten completely out of hand what do you suggest? Buff something not currently used (a la soultrap and entropy) to shift the problem but not fix it?

I advise them to realize that the problem doesn't actually exist. They're not getting scrubs completely breezing through vCR +3. The dps is still very much in a reasonable window for the content they have currently put out. If they were experienced vet trials players, they would know this. But they evidently have no clue.

TequilaFire · September 2019

Why couldn't they have reduced damage by 25% without the cost increase and see how it went, no they have to slash and hack by 50 to 60% and make abilities cost more on top of that.

norrisnick · September 2019

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

MojaveHeld · September 2019

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

no, one of the best guilds in the world pulling that off is in no way outside the reasonable window. If such runs were the norm for vMoL it would be, but this extreme exception in no way indicates that dps is too high currently.

Nirntrotter · September 2019

They should have balanced sets instead of putting all classes through the meat grinder.

MasterSpatula · September 2019

norrisnick wrote: »

[snippity snip]

When the problem they are trying to fix is dmg that has gotten completely out of hand what do you suggest? Buff something not currently used (a la soultrap and entropy) to shift the problem but not fix it?

I would say the problem isn't fixing damage that's gotten completely out of control.. The problem is that they consistently, consistently, consistently attempt to fix out-of-control damage among top-tier players in ways that barely affect these top-tier players but hit mid-and-lower-tier players, casuals, and newbies the hardest.

I'm not up on the PTS changes and haven't seen the data on what the results will be yet. But I do know that the last two years have been a string of attempts to address the excesses of the few by punishing the many who are not guilty of those excesses. This is a thing that you do when you're bad.

(Of course, I'll admit to some bias, as the Scalebreaker changes negatively affected my enjoyment of the gameplay so severely that I've lost any ability I ever had to give ZOS the benefit of the doubt.)

CipherNine · September 2019

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

Oh look another person that thinks cause the .01% of the player base can do something. That should cause drastic changes. It shouldn't and never should be a reason to change anything.

p00tx · September 2019

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

Who is hitting 141k?

Also, keep in mind that a lot of content has been dumbed down so the less skilled players could have a stab at them (pun very much intended), so it's not too wild to assume skilled groups with a lot of reps in the content (and admittedly much higher dps than before) would start to become more proficient at them.

Dreyloch · September 2019

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why couldn't they have reduced damage by 25% without the cost increase and see how it went, no they have to slash and hack by 50 to 60% and make abilities cost more on top of that.

I agree with this, this right here^^^^, I don't think anyone has a clue at ZoS. The only thing I can even begin to imagine is they're trying to drastically scale back sustain across the board. Less damage, Higher costs, means having to use more skills over time to achieve the same current effect, which means needing more sustain?!? My other thought is absolutely NEEDING the new sets to retain some of the damage we have now?? /shakes head...maybe some number cruncher will youtube some answers, cause I for one am totally lost =/

Mathius_Mordred · September 2019

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

That is the exception that proves the rule. It is possible in most games, given enough experience and enough testing to find a build that the vast majority of the player base would never work out and wouldn't understand if you gave it to them. Most of our guild is nowhere near that and are still struggling on any vet trial, we are learning and adapting to the last changes, this is just going to make it more difficult and remove some of the fun.

Remember that this is our leisure time, we do it to have fun not become frustrated that it's just too difficult. Frustrated players are easy to split into two camps, those who will persevere and adapt, but even they will never be able to return to levels they previously had, and those, the vast majority, who will say screw this and go play something else.

I'm ok at this game, but not an expert, I was an expert in my previous game, Star Trek Online, and where most would struggle to hit 20-30K DPS and good players would get 100K, my build was achieving over a million DPS burst and over 200K sustained. Should they then nerf the entire game because someone with 9 years experience and every legendary item in the game found a way to push DPS to its limits? Even after I shared the build only a couple of guys could get close, most couldn't afford the gear to even try it.

So because one group of extremely talented and well-geared players can manage to pull off a fast dungeon or trial is no basis for nerfing the fun for everyone else.

I would posit that these changes will be dialled back after testing on PTS, if not then I see trouble ahead.

WildRaptorX · September 2019

If you watched the stream, it seems the combat changes were from the Lead combat PvP designers who don’t consider the PvE side