How to make PvP more friendly and inviting to PvErs?

Morgul667 · September 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Not everyone plays games to compete with other players. A lot of people aren’t wired that way. They’re not better or worse players than people who do, just different kind of players. Just accept it. It also doesn’t mean that they’re “scared” of PvP. Some people just don’t like it.
Me? You’ll never get me to like the PvP in this game unless it changes drastically, which is unreasonable, so I stay out of it unless I need warhorn/Vigor.
I don’t mind PvP in some other games in medium doses but I just hate competing with other players, that’s not why I play video games. I do however like to co op with players, hence why I like dungeons and trials.
Different people like different things.

I think the problem is mainly with whiners who complain about pvp all the time

Different people love different things is pretty normal

Doesnt mean you have to criticize others and spill hate all over the other players

And i honestly dont think we can help those people enjoy pvp

True, but there are whiners on both sides.
Another problem is the people on both sides who look down their nose at players who prefer the other style, there’s a lot of that going on and it has to stop. A bit more respect needed on both sides.

Agreed

I seldomly see pvpers complaining about pvers though

Toxic is on both side and i dont think we can help people who feel they are entitled to have it easy in pvp

Same way i think we cant help a pvpers who walks into a vhof and makes a scene because he dies

Wolfchild07 · September 2019

By not nerfing werewolf.

VaranisArano · September 2019

PVPers, don't exploit. Duh. Play PVP as intended.

PVEers, you queued into PVP of your own free will. It's your responsibility to prepare for it. It is not your opponent's responsibility to make sure you have a good time.

That's the bare minimum.

Now, as they are able, PVPers can take new players under their wing and into their groups, offering advice that comes from experience with PVP. And as they are able, PVEers can put that advice into practice.

But it starts with taking responsibility. PVPers, play as intended without exploits. PVEers, prepare for PVP.

AhPook_Is_Here · September 2019

Permadeath would be cool, if you could perform a finisher on their corpse and delete their character that would provide an exciting risk reward scenario that would bring a new layer of thrilling to pvp.

JusticeForJilarga · September 2019

Can't you also get Event Tickets from the Dungeons in the Imperial City?

Denyiir · September 2019

Why do you need PvErs in cyro? You just need to fix things that drove people who actually enjoyed PvP away. Cyrodill was way more populated in the past. Fix damn lag and don't make so many stupid balance changes and maybe it will be full once again.

MattT1988 · September 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Not everyone plays games to compete with other players. A lot of people aren’t wired that way. They’re not better or worse players than people who do, just different kind of players. Just accept it. It also doesn’t mean that they’re “scared” of PvP. Some people just don’t like it.
Me? You’ll never get me to like the PvP in this game unless it changes drastically, which is unreasonable, so I stay out of it unless I need warhorn/Vigor.
I don’t mind PvP in some other games in medium doses but I just hate competing with other players, that’s not why I play video games. I do however like to co op with players, hence why I like dungeons and trials.
Different people like different things.

I think the problem is mainly with whiners who complain about pvp all the time

Different people love different things is pretty normal

Doesnt mean you have to criticize others and spill hate all over the other players

And i honestly dont think we can help those people enjoy pvp

True, but there are whiners on both sides.
Another problem is the people on both sides who look down their nose at players who prefer the other style, there’s a lot of that going on and it has to stop. A bit more respect needed on both sides.

Agreed

I seldomly see pvpers complaining about pvers though

Toxic is on both side and i dont think we can help people who feel they are entitled to have it easy in pvp

Same way i think we cant help a pvpers who walks into a vhof and makes a scene because he dies

I agree with all of that but from my experience I find almost as many PvPers complaining about PvEers. You love obviously had a different experience but that’s just what I’ve seen.

Your spot on with the rest of the post.

heaven13 · September 2019

The_Lex wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

You can't. The problem is not with PvP itself.

I think you've got it.

From what I've seen in other threads, plus the less than fun experiences I've had when I had to go to IC for crafting purposes, the problem isn't with pvp.

The problem is with *some* of the pvp *players*.

Getting killed isn't a problem. Happens all the time in questing in pve, in dungeons, in pledges, and trials. What doesn't happen in pve is the insults, trash talk, and other happy stuff. Not one world boss ever told me what my Mom said last night. Not one critter in a delve ever sent a "Learn2Play, expletive deleted no0b" whisper. And not one boss, monster, or critter ever followed me across the zone to keep killing me because I didn't want to fight, only get to the crafting station. There may be pvpers that actually do want a fair fight, who won't take getting beaten as a personal insult, but I have yet to run into one.

I get enough random abuse in RL; work, traffic, even just grocery shopping sometimes. I really don't need that in my "for fun and enjoyment" activity.

Vapirko wrote: »

How can you make something more friendly when the ones who are on here crying about it don’t even want to try? They say they hate PvP and dont want to ever do and that they’re forced to even though they’re not. They don’t want to make it more fun they want PvE only versions of Cyro and IC.

Ever consider that some players really aren't competitive and don't really care whether anyone else's character can beat theirs? It's not so much I don't want to try, I just don't see the point in it at all. You can kill me, good on you, congrats, gold star. Really makes not the slightest bit of difference in anything. See, while I don't pvp, I will help out guildies who want to try out a character by dueling. If they win, good for them. If I win, I show them what I did, so they can figure out how to beat it. Getting beaten is not a personal insult. If I want to do quests, talk to npcs, play the story, then getting killed by another player who feels a need to trash other players just because, is an annoyance and an interruption. A pve only version of Cyro and IC *would* be fun for me because I would have to deal with the npc monsters and enemies, and not the hyper competitive players who have to kill everyone everywhere constantly.

Gimme a break. Of course you're not going to hear trash talk from a scripted boss. But there are countless posts about toxic PvEers. Being kicked from a dungeon, bring called a noob for dying to mechanics, being told to l2p, being told that you're trash if you don't wear meta gear, being called a noob for not hitting at least 40k on a dummy hump parse...the list goes on. PvEers have their own brand of toxicity. Just stop

While I agree with you regarding PvE toxicity, there is a difference between it and PvP toxicity. You can ignore someone in PvE, drop group, and still complete your objective. I haven't participated in IC this event, choosing instead to do dungeons (because I typically find it faster) but I imagine it's the same environment as during the anniversary event where you have PvP jerks camping objectives and actively preventing completion and then being rude on top of it. Unless you completely change campaigns and get lucky that there aren't people doing the same thing over there, you're at the mercy of those jerks and the people in your alliance to try to fight back (and some of them are just as rude) and maybe, hopefully, complete the objective you need. So yes, PvP is not the issue. It's some of the people that are an issue.

That said, this event can be completed either through dungeons or through participating in the PvP areas of Imperial City so it's not necessary for those who want tickets to go there.

Inaya · September 2019

I won't do it as a general part of my game play because I don't like it. I will, however, do it when there is something I want that is PVP related and I don't cry or whine about it.

I've PVP'd in WOW as the pocket healer for the # 1 tank on the server and that was fun, but only because I was protected lol. What I didn't like was the way people talked to others people and it was a HUGE turn off. (Don't know if it's like that in ESO or not) I have no desire to be berated and called names, or watch others be berated and called names after a long stressful day at work.

Long story short, I'll go to a PVP area, do my best to stay away from people and for the most part just stand there if someone wants to kill me, then move on.

VaranisArano · September 2019

Denyiir wrote: »

Why do you need PvErs in cyro? You just need to fix things that drove people who actually enjoyed PvP away. Cyrodill was way more populated in the past. Fix damn lag and don't make so many stupid balance changes and maybe it will be full once again.

Players who are new to PVP would certainly have a better time if BG queues weren't periodically bugged, if Cyrodiil didn't crash in large fights, and ZOS actually fixed our persistent performance issues.

And hey, maybe some of the dedicated PVPers ZOS drove away through neglect of those issues would come back!

Kadoin · September 2019

Making skills work is a great start. They can start with magelight and evil hunter or w/e that fighter's guild skill is. Both meme skills in a real fight against an NB, you're better slotting ice wall or another ground AoE every time.

rpa · September 2019

PvE only player (this far) here. Before I even tried MMO genre I played a PvP game for years and it was great simple fun until the game got a serious case of bloat. In that particular game a total newbie could just jump in and (before bloat which added lots of more or less balanced options to collect) had no other disadvantage than lack of skill. I was medicore solo player but better than average in group.

Took few years before I got into PvP in my previous MMO of choice. In that game PvE and PvP were separated. PvE gear was useless in PvP and vice versa. I was was wary of the gear progression in PvP (which actually was pretty short and cheap). When I finally did it, it was fun. Later a PvE powercreep spilled over to PvP and made everyone too tanky. Too bad.

In my limited experience, PvP is fun if newbs either have no game-imposed disadvantage at all or if there must be PvP power progression it is very short. PvP with progression from PvE and unchecked veteran power advantage is something I don't believe in.

Starlock · September 2019

As someone who hates PvP in this game, my number one piece of advice is:

Join a guild, get to know them as friends, and do PvP with people who you enjoy spending time with anyway.

That's the only way I enjoy PvP. The one and only way. It's not because I enjoy the PvP, it's because I enjoy the company and camaraderie. That makes it fun. Even if I was actually interested in competitive gaming these days, the PvP in this game is such garbage I would never select over a game properly designed for such things. I would far sooner return to playing Overwatch than waste my time on this game's PvP modes.

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

MattT1988 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Not everyone plays games to compete with other players. A lot of people aren’t wired that way. They’re not better or worse players than people who do, just different kind of players. Just accept it. It also doesn’t mean that they’re “scared” of PvP. Some people just don’t like it.
Me? You’ll never get me to like the PvP in this game unless it changes drastically, which is unreasonable, so I stay out of it unless I need warhorn/Vigor.
I don’t mind PvP in some other games in medium doses but I just hate competing with other players, that’s not why I play video games. I do however like to co op with players, hence why I like dungeons and trials.
Different people like different things.

I think the problem is mainly with whiners who complain about pvp all the time

Different people love different things is pretty normal

Doesnt mean you have to criticize others and spill hate all over the other players

And i honestly dont think we can help those people enjoy pvp

True, but there are whiners on both sides.
Another problem is the people on both sides who look down their nose at players who prefer the other style, there’s a lot of that going on and it has to stop. A bit more respect needed on both sides.

Agreed

I seldomly see pvpers complaining about pvers though

Toxic is on both side and i dont think we can help people who feel they are entitled to have it easy in pvp

Same way i think we cant help a pvpers who walks into a vhof and makes a scene because he dies

I agree with all of that but from my experience I find almost as many PvPers complaining about PvEers. You love obviously had a different experience but that’s just what I’ve seen.

Your spot on with the rest of the post.

I think it's fundamentally different. PVPers complain about PVEers because PVEers because they refuse to improve themselves, they want the game to cater to them. A lot of PVP players have to experience PVE and are therefore at least moderate enough that they can get the gear needed. PVE players are the opposite, they refuse to join PVP unless there's a reason (skill lines, the event, etc.) and when they do there's a flood of the inevitable "Nerf skill, PVP players cheat, make IC/Cyro PVE, etc." and I think this is why there's such a divide.

TLDR: PVP players want you to "git gud" like they had to while PVE players want the fundamentals of zones changed to better cater to their own ineptitude.

Starlock · September 2019

Also, after reading the post above this one, I'm going to add:

Stop making false generalizations about people who play various game modes.

Katahdin · September 2019

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Permadeath would be cool, if you could perform a finisher on their corpse and delete their character that would provide an exciting risk reward scenario that would bring a new layer of thrilling to pvp.

If that was a thing there would be a great many players who pvp now that would never set foot in pvp ever again let alone any pve player.

I pvp 2 or more times per week. During this event or midyear mayhem, I'm there every day. I personally wouldn't set foot in there at all if death meant my character is deleted. Many of us spend alot of time, gold (sometimes real money) leveling and gearing our characters. To negate that with one fell swoop is way too harsh, no thanks

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Also, after reading the post above this one, I'm going to add:

Stop making false generalizations about people who play various game modes.

What part is false?

jircris11 · September 2019

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Well, opie, you started off by insulting PvE players, so bravo.... a guaranteed way to get people on side.

As a neither PvEer or PvPer, just a player of all parts of the game, my suggestions are:

1. The idiots who spawn camp? Ignore them. They're generally the lowest form of PvPers. The type of goose you see gone dark around the back of flagged keeps leeching ticks. They run at the first sign of real resistance. Either that or they're just plain garden variety fools. Either way, they are atypical of PvPers.

2. Advertise in zone chat you are a newbie to PvP, and are looking for a guild to help you learn. Don't be discouraged by the general responses in zone chat. Most of the big mouth idiots have plenty of time because they're dark at a keep waiting for a tick. The others are proud owners of acquired brain injuries. No success today? Try again tomorrow. When you do find one, ask guildies for build help, and duel. Duel lots.

3. Don't be afraid of dying. Everyone in PvP dies. A lot! You will be outnumbered, often, and despite what all the folks wearing the "Armor of Forum Magnificence" say, if you have 5 players hammering on you, you are going to die.

4. Have some fun. Myself, I don't really like IC, I'll play it, but I really love Cyro. Sieging and taking keeps is fun, but for you, find your own poison.

5. The blokes who teabag you the most enthusiastically are generally the ones who don't appear in your death recap at all.

6. If you do enjoy it, and get good at it, be respectful. Everyone was new once. A lot of PvEers know that holding block is generally a sign for peace. Me, when I'm PvPing, and not doing PvP objectives (like just tooling through a delve or some such), I respect that, and I'll throw up a block in return, and leave you be. A lot of PvPers I know will do the same. Of course, if you ARE doing PvP objectives (like hanging around a keep or resource), you are fair game.

As number 6 says most pvpers I die to are far from respectful nor are the team members. They all tend to be egotistical. Tgen again I have crap luck with randoms

JusticeForJilarga · September 2019

Katahdin wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Permadeath would be cool, if you could perform a finisher on their corpse and delete their character that would provide an exciting risk reward scenario that would bring a new layer of thrilling to pvp.

If that was a thing there would be a great many players who pvp now that would never set foot in pvp ever again let alone any pve player.

I pvp 2 or more times per week. During this event or midyear mayhem, I'm there every day. I personally wouldn't set foot in there at all if death meant my character is deleted. Many of us spend alot of time, gold (sometimes real money) leveling and gearing our characters. To negate that with one fell swoop is way too harsh, no thanks

Change it to 1 life in the special campaign till it boots you off the campaign till reset then that could be interesting.

hakan · September 2019

JKorr wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

You can't. The problem is not with PvP itself.

I think you've got it.

From what I've seen in other threads, plus the less than fun experiences I've had when I had to go to IC for crafting purposes, the problem isn't with pvp.

The problem is with *some* of the pvp *players*.

Getting killed isn't a problem. Happens all the time in questing in pve, in dungeons, in pledges, and trials. What doesn't happen in pve is the insults, trash talk, and other happy stuff. Not one world boss ever told me what my Mom said last night. Not one critter in a delve ever sent a "Learn2Play, expletive deleted no0b" whisper. And not one boss, monster, or critter ever followed me across the zone to keep killing me because I didn't want to fight, only get to the crafting station. There may be pvpers that actually do want a fair fight, who won't take getting beaten as a personal insult, but I have yet to run into one.

I get enough random abuse in RL; work, traffic, even just grocery shopping sometimes. I really don't need that in my "for fun and enjoyment" activity.

Vapirko wrote: »

How can you make something more friendly when the ones who are on here crying about it don’t even want to try? They say they hate PvP and dont want to ever do and that they’re forced to even though they’re not. They don’t want to make it more fun they want PvE only versions of Cyro and IC.

Ever consider that some players really aren't competitive and don't really care whether anyone else's character can beat theirs? It's not so much I don't want to try, I just don't see the point in it at all. You can kill me, good on you, congrats, gold star. Really makes not the slightest bit of difference in anything. See, while I don't pvp, I will help out guildies who want to try out a character by dueling. If they win, good for them. If I win, I show them what I did, so they can figure out how to beat it. Getting beaten is not a personal insult. If I want to do quests, talk to npcs, play the story, then getting killed by another player who feels a need to trash other players just because, is an annoyance and an interruption. A pve only version of Cyro and IC *would* be fun for me because I would have to deal with the npc monsters and enemies, and not the hyper competitive players who have to kill everyone everywhere constantly.

yeah bosses dont insult. but players do there. oh you have 20k dps? get lost. lulw. all the nerfs and pve fights, people quitting in mid dungeon all of it because of this.

you are delusional to think pvp is the toxic one here.

to the topic. they just want it to be easy as daily normal pledges, thats it. you can do NOTHING about it.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · September 2019

I'm sorry, but there is nothing 'friendly' about PVP. It is a fight, and you fight to win.

JusticeForJilarga · September 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Also, after reading the post above this one, I'm going to add:

Stop making false generalizations about people who play various game modes.

This One thinks they have good point.

Katahdin · September 2019

I think there needs to be some realization and responsibility on both sides.

PvEers need to understand and accept the fact that it is a pvp zone and yes you are going to die. You have to be willing to educate and prepare yourself just as you have to for any vet trial. Yes the "mechanics" of PvP are a bit more complicated and less obvious than a trial and the learning curve is steeper but the principle is the same nontheless.
If you aren't willing to accept these things, you're gona have a bad time.

PvPers need to understand that new people need to be able to figure things out.
Relentlessly camping the base doors and killing them nonstop will most likely not endear pvp to a new player. Maybe state this in zone to your faction like "Hey guys let's give them a break for 10 minutes and go to the other faction base for a little while". Instead of doing the "hur, dur git gud, L2P noob", maybe offer advice to new players in your alliance at least.

I certainly was killed and rekt enough times when I was new that it's sometimes hard for me to have some empathy when I see an obviously new player. I try to remind myself what it was like and not kill them repeatedly every time I see them.

I love IC, it's an awesome area imo. I'd love for more people to be there more often and to have more things to do there

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · September 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Every time there is a PvP event that is supposed to attract PvErs to PvP, we get an outcry from PvErs that they don't like being killed in PvP. Some person even got "traumatized"...
But I'm not here to tell people how to man up.

I've created this thread so that people - all people: both PvPers and PvErs could post their ideas on how to make PvP more inviting and friendly for PvErs. I'll post my idea in a seperate thread.

End of animation canceling as is abused by macro users, reduce damage taken by dots & poisons with a big timer to re-apply, and put an end to one hit wonders in Cyrodiil.

Kiralyn2000 · September 2019

JKorr wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

You can't. The problem is not with PvP itself.

I think you've got it.

From what I've seen in other threads, plus the less than fun experiences I've had when I had to go to IC for crafting purposes, the problem isn't with pvp.

The problem is with *some* of the pvp *players*.

This.

Not all pvpers are griefers/bullies/budding sociopaths/hypercompetitive jock #$%^&*/etc. But enough of them are to poison the whole experience.

The types who curse & scream & yell. The types who I remember posting on the WoW pvp forums, talking about how their lv80 wandering around lowbie areas crushing lv20's was "true pvp" because there were two players involved; or bragging about how they hounded some quester into logging off in frustration (hoping that they'd pushed so far as to make them quit the game). And so on.

And a bit of that is visible in every "yeah, pvp!" thread, with all the folks bagging on pvers as 'fragile' or 'whiners' or 'traumatized' or somehow lesser, because they just aren't interested in the same kind of competition that the pvpers are, or don't think it's fun to have whatever pve task they're trying to do repeatedly interrupted by random wandering persecution.

Yes, there are some people who don't want to hang out in the highschool locker room, listening to the football team brag & measure their &#$! while periodically pushing around some 'weaklings'. Ooh, what fun.

(personally, I find the "but why are we being forced to pvp!?!" complaint threads to be just as silly as the "but why are we being forced to <pve/dungeon/craft/etc> for this event!??1" complaints. No one is forced to do every event, no one is forced to participate in every kind of content. If you yourself choose to be obsessed with getting 100% of the rewards and therefore feel 'forced' to do every single event - that's on you and your 100% mania, not the game 'forcing' you to do anything. Personally, I skip the pvp events, because I have no interest in pvp. Partially because I'm not that competitive a person, and partially because I have no interest in dealing with the fraction of scum that makes the entire pvp experience awful and gives all the other pvpers a bad name.

Cirantille · September 2019

I don't consider myself PvE or PvP player, I do one or another when I am bored of the content so it spices things up.
But I mean...
That is PvP.
Sometimes you die and sometimes you kill.
That is the whole point.
What I don't condone is people being toxic to new players.
What can be possible fun when you kill something that is not challenging?
Like waiting in front of a spawn door, that is an easy kill.
I want to be challenged, I want the adrenaline

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

You can't. The problem is not with PvP itself.

I think you've got it.

From what I've seen in other threads, plus the less than fun experiences I've had when I had to go to IC for crafting purposes, the problem isn't with pvp.

The problem is with *some* of the pvp *players*.

This.

Not all pvpers are griefers/bullies/budding sociopaths/hypercompetitive jock #$%^&*/etc. But enough of them are to poison the whole experience.

The types who curse & scream & yell. The types who I remember posting on the WoW pvp forums, talking about how their lv80 wandering around lowbie areas crushing lv20's was "true pvp" because there were two players involved; or bragging about how they hounded some quester into logging off in frustration (hoping that they'd pushed so far as to make them quit the game). And so on.

And a bit of that is visible in every "yeah, pvp!" thread, with all the folks bagging on pvers as 'fragile' or 'whiners' or 'traumatized' or somehow lesser, because they just aren't interested in the same kind of competition that the pvpers are, or don't think it's fun to have whatever pve task they're trying to do repeatedly interrupted by random wandering persecution.

Yes, there are some people who don't want to hang out in the highschool locker room, listening to the football team brag & measure their &#$! while periodically pushing around some 'weaklings'. Ooh, what fun.

(personally, I find the "but why are we being forced to pvp!?!" complaint threads to be just as silly as the "but why are we being forced to <pve/dungeon/craft/etc> for this event!??1" complaints. No one is forced to do every event, no one is forced to participate in every kind of content. If you yourself choose to be obsessed with getting 100% of the rewards and therefore feel 'forced' to do every single event - that's on you and your 100% mania, not the game 'forcing' you to do anything. Personally, I skip the pvp events, because I have no interest in pvp. Partially because I'm not that competitive a person, and partially because I have no interest in dealing with the fraction of scum that makes the entire pvp experience awful and gives all the other pvpers a bad name.

But you do sound traumatized. Those players in WoW had to CHOOSE PVPE servers and that was part of the game. People saying it was "true pvp" is obviously a joke/troll of someone going to grief another player, which again is part of the game type all of those players chose to join. WoW had tons of PVE only servers in which none of that would happen at all. This is why people are called fragile or soft, because you read about people killing people in forums, you didn't even experience it yourself, and that traumatized you into never wanting to experience PVP or try it out. You also take situations out of context and try to apply it to every situation which is just completely false. Are there griefers in PVP? Sure. Are there griefers in PVE? Sure. It's part of the experience, you just have to not let those people get to you.

I agree, you don't have to want to hang out in the locker room, but instead of not associating with those people, you're just choosing not to play sports at all instead which I think becomes a bigger loss entirely.

Edit spelling

jircris11 · September 2019

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Permadeath would be cool, if you could perform a finisher on their corpse and delete their character that would provide an exciting risk reward scenario that would bring a new layer of thrilling to pvp.

And you will lose all pvpers other tgen a SMALL handful

Wrexsoul · September 2019

I'm sure quite a few people never get into PvP just for the fact that they have to go get gear for it. Add a new mundus stone (based on a member of The Tribunal) that adds crit resistance so people can go PvP in their divines gear. They won't be on the same level as players wearing inpen trait armor + mundus but it would be a lot better for them then it is now.

Increase exp gain for PvP related activities and killing mobs in PvP zones. Crank it up and then suppress the training trait from working so you don't just end up with a bunch of useless warm bodies clogging up the battlefields.

Add PvP vendors that sell a variety of motifs and housing items for stones and AP. Make the items attractive looking and unique. They don't have to all be grimdark torture devices. You could also add player purchasable Towers, Forts, and Castles to be used as homes.

Add NEW cosmetics. Skins, costumes, mounts, motifs, dyes and non-combat pets to be rewarded by unlocking achievements or doing quests.

Tandor · September 2019

These topics never end well, they always reach a point where the insults to PvEers start. This is, however, the only one I can recall where the insults to PvErs started in the opening post.