End of Loot Boxes in UK?

idk · September 2019

Parrot1986 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lol, people hating loot boxes are like healthy people hating MacDonalds. DONT BUY THEM THEN! It literally does not affect you whatsoever

If you dont like something, dont buy it. Simples

Look at the link. It appears they are looking at a different type of lootbox that has an actual effect on gameplay. Runescape, that is mentioned, has a very different type of lootbox. Even the Getty Image inserted in the article specifically refers to loot boxes that can affect gameplay which is not the case with ESO Crown Crates. Even the previous article

I think people are grasping at straws here based on what is in the article. I see nothing in there that makes it seem ESO will be affected. Personally, I could care less as I am smart enough to avoid purchasing crown crates as they are pretty pointless.

Agree, there’s been a lot of focus on FIFA in the UK as that’s a game with a low age restriction but loot boxes/cards are key for getting better players. Those are the 2 key things the report recommended shouldn’t be allowed. ESO has neither of those things technically so I don’t think you could assume a change to one that affects FIFA would affect ESO.

I don’t see it changing anytime soon in the UK, these reports happen all the time. Getting a law passed is a whole other beast. Especially when this government are incapable of passing wind never mind laws.

Not to forget that loot crates could very well be the least of the UKs problems

Taloros · September 2019

Some points:
- Great news. Some regulation on this (or application of current gambling laws by the administration) is needed.
- The article explicitly cites "young adults" getting into debt. This is not a problem of children alone, and the MPs seem to have realized that.
- ESO may have a "18+" sticker on it. Nobody checked my ID before playing the game or spending money on it.
- Even if loot boxes should only be restricted to adults, it's possible that ZOS will decide to remove them altogether, as age verification is pretty difficult over the internet. The cost of implementing an age verification system (and/or paying the occasional fine for system failure) may be greater than the earnings from loot boxes.
- People who argue against regulation on principle should take a look on their daily life and think how it'd be without legislation. No labor law, no product safety law, no protection against fraud or violence. Those that argue these points, in my experience, often are those who profit the most from legislation, but don't realize they do.
- Nice to hear that the British parliament isn't completely consumed by Brexit. Hopefully, they'll manage to get the administration in line, thereby get past that shameful affair and return to their regular duties of keeping people safe instead of... whatever Brexit is about nowadays.

labambao · September 2019

Crown chests aka lootboxes can't be banned because you can't trade anything you got from it. So it's legal.

Narvuntien · September 2019

The question is "Are loot boxes Gambling" and the answer in the UK is yes. Since the items clearly have value even if that value cannot be turned into a monetary payout which was the loophole gaming companies have been walking through.

For ESO its 18+ and the lootboxes do not affect gameplay so in the short term this doesn't affect ESO since the report wants PEGI/ESRB to give games with lootboxes 18+.

Do the items in lootboxes have value? that is where it gets suppppper tricky because that value is not fixed when it's just to look cool since beauty is in the eye of the beholder so the value of the items fluctuates.

Personally, I would like to see the odds on crates published, that is simple enough.
You can reduce the issue if every crate always produce the same gems worth of items in which case you are getting random rewards of the same "value" which is how trading card game work always 1 rare, 3 uncommons and 10 commons but they have different real world value.

idk · September 2019

Narvuntien wrote: »

The question is "Are loot boxes Gambling" and the answer in the UK is yes. Since the items clearly have value even if that value cannot be turned into a monetary payout which was the loophole gaming companies have been walking through.

For ESO its 18+ and the lootboxes do not affect gameplay so in the short term this doesn't affect ESO since the report wants PEGI/ESRB to give games with lootboxes 18+.

Do the items in lootboxes have value? that is where it gets suppppper tricky because that value is not fixed when it's just to look cool since beauty is in the eye of the beholder so the value of the items fluctuates.

Personally, I would like to see the odds on crates published, that is simple enough.
You can reduce the issue if every crate always produce the same gems worth of items in which case you are getting random rewards of the same "value" which is how trading card game work always 1 rare, 3 uncommons and 10 commons but they have different real world value.

While you are correct that Crown Crates do not affect game play which is what UK seems to be focused on, ESO ESRB rating is Mature which is age 17+.

Coolits · September 2019

labambao wrote: »

Crown chests aka lootboxes can't be banned because you can't trade anything you got from it. So it's legal.

This is precisely what companies are abusing currently, the fact the legal definition of gambling isn’t fit for purpose and doesn’t cover this situation.

What this report does is open the door in the UK to put a bill through parliament and make a change to the law. It’s part of parliaments job to make these types of changes and it’s actually a routine parliamentary process.

It’s highly likely it’s only a matter of time before the law is changed and the key thing here is how the bill will be worded. I have no doubt the lobbyists representing the game companies will be out in force trying to influence the wording.

We shouldn’t be in this situation in the first place, game companies should not be abusing and taking advantage of their fans in this way, it’s disgusting.

There are a few Youtubers who summarise the situation quite well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIvHMcT-3e0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBueZGyXJ-s

Tommy_The_Gun · September 2019

I am just gonna leave it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIvHMcT-3e0

This is a kinda "small" victory for us, gamers and for those of us who dont want this kind of crap in our video games.
Although ESO has some of it, it is not the worst case. If we will see any further actions, law corrections (because as always, legal law can not keep up with technology) I really do hope that it will be a "snow ball" effect, so we will see similar actions in other Countries across the world.

Edit up: LOL.. we posted the same video... lel

idk · September 2019

Coolits wrote: »

labambao wrote: »

Crown chests aka lootboxes can't be banned because you can't trade anything you got from it. So it's legal.

This is precisely what companies are abusing currently, the fact the legal definition of gambling isn’t fit for purpose and doesn’t cover this situation.

What this report does is open the door in the UK to put a bill through parliament and make a change to the law. It’s part of parliaments job to make these types of changes and it’s actually a routine parliamentary process.

It’s highly likely it’s only a matter of time before the law is changed and the key thing here is how the bill will be worded. I have no doubt the lobbyists representing the game companies will be out in force trying to influence the wording.

We shouldn’t be in this situation in the first place, game companies should not be abusing and taking advantage of their fans in this way, it’s disgusting.

First of all you are oversimplifying the process in a manner that makes it look like it is a done deal. Just as it is routine for Parliament to change and make new laws it is even more routine they choose to not do it. There are more ideas that never make it to a final vote than actually do and that is pretty much a fact.

Further, you should probably read the article linked in the OP as there a couple key points that you seem to have missed./

1. The focus seems to be more on kids being able to purchase these loot crates vs that they are available in general. The title clearly indicates that but there is also more in the article itself.
2. The specific publisher the mention is Jagex and they have a very different type of loot crate then we have here. The crates they offer in Runescape have a direct effect to improve gameplay. Something ESO crates do not.

Also, you mention lobbyist will likely be involved. That much should be obvious. The lawmakers are not idiots and know they have much to learn. They are not going to ban crates outright because that would be dumb. They will regulate them at best which would restrict how they can be used and information presented, maybe even an age restriction. In other words, something that makes sense. For the most part ESO will see little effect.

Vlad9425 · September 2019

Yes get them banned immediately. I have no problem paying for quality stuff that you can just buy straight up but the exploitative gambling RNG bs needs to go and the whole gaming industry would benefit from it.

Hallothiel · September 2019

Don’t hold your breath waiting for this to be passed into law - the UK parliament has slightly more pressing matters to deal with at the moment!

But if they do legislate, I hope they do it with a bit more consideration and nuance than they have done in the past.

And could not ignore this:
“England is already investing in thoughtcrime prosecution”
WTF? News to me & I live here 😆

Mathius_Mordred · September 2019

There is a certain inevitability to the banning or regulation of loot boxes. It can often take years for parliament to catch up with new systems, technology or cultural practices, but once they are sighted as a health risk then things move much faster. Remember those legal highs you used to be able to buy, well they were banned in short order very quickly once the evidence against them was gathered.

The UK courts and Parliament are evidence-based, it will require serious study to determine any likely societal or individual health risks, even if they are highly suspected, however, once that evidence is in then the MPs will move fast and lobby groups in the UK have little chance of influencing MPs if the science is solid. I'd estimate they have about 5 years left before banning with regulation coming in the next couple of years with a caveat of +/- 3 years on that due to Brexit tying up the house.

Knightpanther · September 2019

I watched the article the Beeb ran yesterday (maybe more coming with 'Click' on Sunday?) as many have said the regulation seems to be aimed at protecting minors.
UK law has no issue with Loot Boxes, its solely down to our tight regulation of gambling which these systems are deemed to be part of due to the rng of the boxes.
BUT how long have we had trading card games in the shops? those football cards? are they rated 18? isn't that the same thing?

There is always a reluctance to not restrict freedom of choice in the UK (quiet rightly) so I doubt loot boxes (like other ways to gamble) will ever be banned.
Also its big business, lots of bank transactions and basically its money for nothing (literally the item doesn't exist outside of the game).

ESO's loot box system is crap, lets face it its a cash grab with very low chance of getting anything for a reasonable price.
The best system I have come across is SWTOR, buy crates and sell items on the GTN what you don't want, get credits and buy what you DO want, I wish ESO had this platform.

Be safe

redlink1979 · September 2019

Danikat wrote: »

Since it's aimed at protecting children it's unlikely to affect ESO as the game is rated 18+ in the UK.

It will afect all, regardless if the content produced is or not for +18.

Deathlord92 · September 2019

Good it is disgusting to encourage kids to gamble and imo loot boxes ruin games because all the content that should be in the game is in a loot box instead. EA imo is the worst for it.

Nemesis7884 · September 2019

it is simply ridiculous that nowadays you might pay as much or even more for mounts, pets etc than you pay for full expansions or even full games....

the gaming industry simply exaggerated with their greed and predatory practices and now the chicken are coming home to roost...

LuxLunae · September 2019

I always talk to my bro about the possible second gaming crash occurring just before the next great depression which will happen around the 100 anniversary of the first. Indie devs will flourish....then some will become big companies...then the cycle repeats itself...

EmEm_Oh · September 2019

I propose...BRESOXIT!

Tigerseye · September 2019

Danikat wrote: »

Since it's aimed at protecting children it's unlikely to affect ESO as the game is rated 18+ in the UK.

We all know people under the age of 18 play the game, regardless of that, though.

Parents talk about their kids playing and kids admit to their age, occasionally, when people are comparing ages in guild chat.

I think loot boxes need to be banned entirely, or it won't really work.

In fact, I would go further and say that casinos and other gambling venues should only be physical venues, ideally in out of town locations, you have to choose to go to.

Otherwise, for the problem gambler, online gambling is like having a casino permanently attached to their person, wherever they go.

Failing that, gambling should at least be removed from non-gambling online venues, as people may come to these games to get away from online gambling and then find themselves faced with it, again.

Coolits · September 2019

redlink1979 wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Since it's aimed at protecting children it's unlikely to affect ESO as the game is rated 18+ in the UK.

It will afect all, regardless if the content produced is or not for +18.

Exactly, in the report the committee have looked at the bigger picture which is not limited to kids or just loot boxes. Below is a quote from the official findings surrounding loot boxes, so considering we are at the end of the current parliamentary session it certainly doesn’t sound like we are a million miles away from the start of regulation in the UK.

"The Government should bring forward regulations under section 6 of the Gambling Act 2005 in the next parliamentary session to specify that loot boxes are a game of chance. If it determines not to regulate loot boxes under the Act at this time, the Government should produce a paper clearly stating the reasons why it does not consider loot boxes paid for with real-world currency to be a game of chance played for money's worth."

For anyone interested you can check out the official parliamentary documentation here.

TelvanniWizard · September 2019

If scam crates are finally deleted we could get the huge permanent crown store we deserve.

Tigerseye · September 2019

Danikat wrote: »

...in which case they'll most likely block UK players from purchasing crown crates like many companies did when Belgium outlawed loot boxes.

If they do that, they will be losing income, unless they make the items, that were only available in crates, available to directly purchase.

It would actually be interesting to see if their profits in that area went up, or down, if they did that.

My guess is up, as there is a limit to how much most people want to gamble to get the exact item they want.

Even though the chances of getting what you want (or the gems to buy it) go up exponentially, once you have bought sufficient (as in, way too many!) crates.

Tigerseye · September 2019

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lol, people hating loot boxes are like healthy people hating MacDonalds. DONT BUY THEM THEN! It literally does not affect you whatsoever

If you dont like something, dont buy it. Simples

It affects us all if people are, literally, crying on Youtube about having (once again) spent money they say they can't afford.

Bobby_V_Rockit · September 2019

So how many games you reckon gonna go to subscription models instead? Labour ain’t free

Alucardo · September 2019

Danikat wrote: »

in which case they'll most likely block UK players from purchasing crown crates like many companies did when Belgium outlawed loot boxes.

Maybe if it goes this far they'll end up sticking all the stuff inside the "surprise mechanics" onto the store to be bought directly. They aren't going to want to make a loss, as UK probably makes up a large portion of their player base, so selling the items outright would make the most sense.
I would have liked this from the beginning tbh, as I absolutely detest crown crates and any form of RNG for real money.

nafensoriel · September 2019

Careful what you wish for.
The easiest way to ban loot boxes is not to remove them from the game but simply to ban the game.

Also this law isn't even a paper tiger. I highly doubt anyone will ever use it for an argument in court.
Unless you see a major power group like China, the USA, or the entire EU declare loot boxes as unequivocal gambling nothing will change. Even the UK isnt big enough for the world to care anymore.

Slimebrow · September 2019

Honestly I hope this game gets banned. Can't wait at this point. :l

MJallday · September 2019

Hamish999 wrote: »

I'll just leave this here ...

Edit for clarification: The MPs are asking for the restriction of the sale of loot boxes to minors only.

They are but if you read the article and indeed listened to the MP on Radio 5 yesterday who was presenting it, this legislation will go hand in hand with age verification services , and since there is a belief (which I don’t share btw) that there is no real foolproof worldwide AVS, then a blanket ban would be imposed , affecting both under and over 18s

The interview is on yesterday’s (thursdays)radio 5 live breakfast on i player if you want to listen

Hamish999 · September 2019

MJallday wrote: »

Hamish999 wrote: »

I'll just leave this here ...

Edit for clarification: The MPs are asking for the restriction of the sale of loot boxes to minors only.

They are but if you read the article and indeed listened to the MP on Radio 5 yesterday who was presenting it, this legislation will go hand in hand with age verification services , and since there is a belief (which I don’t share btw) that there is no real foolproof worldwide AVS, then a blanket ban would be imposed , affecting both under and over 18s

The interview is on yesterday’s (thursdays)radio 5 live breakfast on i player if you want to listen

So (mostly) sensible adults will be punished because of bad parenting *shakes head*

randomkeyhits · September 2019

Hamish999 wrote: »

I'll just leave this here ...

Edit for clarification: The MPs are asking for the restriction of the sale of loot boxes to minors only.

Pegi - Enforced in the UK, Its the sale of the game thats illegal, not the playing. A parent right now can buy a game for their child of any rating and let them play. There are groups agitating for this to change but its not in law. A bit like the situation with wine. No one under the age of 18 can buy but its only illegal to give it to a child under five.

ESRB - American industry recommended rating. No legal value and attempts to make it so in state law was deemed unconsitutional and struck off so this is purely an advisory. TL;DR its all on the parents to police their children.

That report was good reading because it acknowledged the actual current situation in a very rational way and said it simply wasn't good enough.

Coolits · September 2019

YongYea has put an excellent video up of him actively reading through the committees findings for anyone interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKhSe6LcW-Q