End of Loot Boxes in UK?

MJallday · September 2019

it would seem the law is about to change

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49661870

redspecter23 · September 2019

It's another step forward. We'll see how this works out as time goes by. I guarantee that game companies will only ever do the bare minimum required to adhere to the laws so we'll have to see what sort of loopholes they come up with next.

Danikat · September 2019

Since it's aimed at protecting children it's unlikely to affect ESO as the game is rated 18+ in the UK.

The only way it's likely to have an impact is if ZOS are required to buy a gambling licence and decide that's not worth doing, in which case they'll most likely block UK players from purchasing crown crates like many companies did when Belgium outlawed loot boxes.

Personally I think it's a step in the right direction (if it actually goes through - bear in mind the UK parliament isn't in session right now so MPs can't pass any laws and seemingly couldn't organise a *** up in a brewery when they were in session) but it's unlikely to directly affect ESO.

MJallday · September 2019

Danikat wrote: »

Since it's aimed at protecting children it's unlikely to affect ESO as the game is rated 18+ in the UK.

The only way it's likely to have an impact is if ZOS are required to buy a gambling licence and decide that's not worth doing, in which case they'll most likely block UK players from purchasing crown crates like many companies did when Belgium outlawed loot boxes.

Personally I think it's a step in the right direction (if it actually goes through - bear in mind the UK parliament isn't in session right now so MPs can't pass any laws and seemingly couldn't organise a *** up in a brewery when they were in session) but it's unlikely to directly affect ESO.

from my understanding, the law is aimed at the principle of loot boxes, so the age of 18+ doesnt matter. - it will be a blanket ban.
however as you say, getting it through parliment at the moment would be like trying to shove an octopus through a venitian blind.

Delparis · September 2019

Tandor · September 2019

What a lot of people don't get is that there are all manner of different types of "loot boxes" across the MMO genre, and they are aimed at all manner of different markets.

ESO's crates aren't pure gambling in the sense that some games' lootboxes are, in that they all contain contents that have an estimated value (your mileage may vary but that's not the point, it merely affects your decision to buy or not) that covers the cost, with an added chance of something better in them. Moreover, they're in a game that has a maturity rating that takes it outside the category of "kids' games" covered by the article.

In any event, which follower of UK politics seriously thinks that MPs are currently capable of doing anything, let alone legislating against lootboxes?

Also, if you want them gone, and personally I have no interest in them but don't object to them existing for those that do want them in an adult-rated game, be sure to come up with an alternative source of revenue such as paying for levels through the crown store, or buying keep unlock tokens in the crown store etc. We already have skill points in the crown store so if you want to dump a significant source of revenue then be careful what you wish for.

Hallothiel · September 2019

The article doesn’t really explain just what they mean by a ‘loot box’ - as far as I can see they are talking about ones on sale in free games that are for items that are necessary to progress. So may not affect crates.

Also, how will this proposed legislation affect things such as trading card packs?

But annoyed to see that the article then goes on to talk about gaming addiction & the quite dubious decision of the WHO to accept this as a real thing without a decent definition; no mention of recent research that has shown that gaming has positive benefits.

Huyen · September 2019

MJallday wrote: »

it would seem the law is about to change

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49661870

The law is already in place in belgium and the netherlands. But how is one to enforce it when the game is worldwide?

MJallday · September 2019

Huyen wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

it would seem the law is about to change

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49661870

The law is already in place in belgium and the netherlands. But how is one to enforce it when the game is worldwide?

They either have to comply, or break the law
Usual my it’s the former.
I think they’ll generalise the statement tbh - but they won’t get it through parliament in the next 6 months at least

spekdah · September 2019

All lootboxes fall under the definition of gambling, as far as the dictionary is concerned. Gambling, when written into law books is quite a different matter. And thats the crux. You only need to make a few changes;
* use a virtual currency
* offer some base items
The list goes on but just a few minor redirections are needed, and hey, they no longer fall under gambling laws.

If I stick a jacket on my dog and write CAT in large lettrs on it, guess what? it's still a dog!

IT companies do this all the time. I work in finance software, international banks, and finance companies create products to skirt tax laws all the time. They read legislation, for example to tax partial withdrawals on some products. So in turn when a new customer comes for that particular they create 20 accounts instead of one for you. That way your partial withdrawals are actually full closure of accounts. So many years later, new legislation comes in to close that loophole.

Gambling laws have been really slow to close the loopholes called lootboxes. I would say mainly around how complicated the lootbox systems can be. Mix of mobile, virtual currencies, free to play systems, rewards the list goes on.

On the topic of minors, the concept of cosmetic only items that gets thrown around annoys me. Minors are not mature enough to know the difference and in some ways, the cosmetic items are more important and are be what kids are judged on among peers. I have three kids, the classroom today is very different form when I grew up. Kids get excluded, bullied and judged on what Fortnight skins they have among peers. Sad, yes, shouldn't happen, but it does. It's pretty brutal out htere.

Arca94 · September 2019

Tandor wrote: »

What a lot of people don't get is that there are all manner of different types of "loot boxes" across the MMO genre, and they are aimed at all manner of different markets.

ESO's crates aren't pure gambling in the sense that some games' lootboxes are, in that they all contain contents that have an estimated value (your mileage may vary but that's not the point, it merely affects your decision to buy or not) that covers the cost, with an added chance of something better in them. Moreover, they're in a game that has a maturity rating that takes it outside the category of "kids' games" covered by the article.

In any event, which follower of UK politics seriously thinks that MPs are currently capable of doing anything, let alone legislating against lootboxes?

Also, if you want them gone, and personally I have no interest in them but don't object to them existing for those that do want them in an adult-rated game, be sure to come up with an alternative source of revenue such as paying for levels through the crown store, or buying keep unlock tokens in the crown store etc. We already have skill points in the crown store so if you want to dump a significant source of revenue then be careful what you wish for.

The more I read your posts on this forum, the more I think you're just a bot created by ZoS to defend them in any argument, at any cost.

leepalmer95 · September 2019

Tandor wrote: »

What a lot of people don't get is that there are all manner of different types of "loot boxes" across the MMO genre, and they are aimed at all manner of different markets.

ESO's crates aren't pure gambling in the sense that some games' lootboxes are, in that they all contain contents that have an estimated value (your mileage may vary but that's not the point, it merely affects your decision to buy or not) that covers the cost, with an added chance of something better in them. Moreover, they're in a game that has a maturity rating that takes it outside the category of "kids' games" covered by the article.

In any event, which follower of UK politics seriously thinks that MPs are currently capable of doing anything, let alone legislating against lootboxes?

Also, if you want them gone, and personally I have no interest in them but don't object to them existing for those that do want them in an adult-rated game, be sure to come up with an alternative source of revenue such as paying for levels through the crown store, or buying keep unlock tokens in the crown store etc. We already have skill points in the crown store so if you want to dump a significant source of revenue then be careful what you wish for.

They are pure gambling though, you pay money and get randomised loot.

Ackwalan · September 2019

Goodbye loot boxes, hello monthly subs.

Hamish999 · September 2019

I'll just leave this here ...

Edit for clarification: The MPs are asking for the restriction of the sale of loot boxes to minors only.

Tandor · September 2019

Arca94 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

What a lot of people don't get is that there are all manner of different types of "loot boxes" across the MMO genre, and they are aimed at all manner of different markets.

ESO's crates aren't pure gambling in the sense that some games' lootboxes are, in that they all contain contents that have an estimated value (your mileage may vary but that's not the point, it merely affects your decision to buy or not) that covers the cost, with an added chance of something better in them. Moreover, they're in a game that has a maturity rating that takes it outside the category of "kids' games" covered by the article.

In any event, which follower of UK politics seriously thinks that MPs are currently capable of doing anything, let alone legislating against lootboxes?

Also, if you want them gone, and personally I have no interest in them but don't object to them existing for those that do want them in an adult-rated game, be sure to come up with an alternative source of revenue such as paying for levels through the crown store, or buying keep unlock tokens in the crown store etc. We already have skill points in the crown store so if you want to dump a significant source of revenue then be careful what you wish for.

The more I read your posts on this forum, the more I think you're just a bot created by ZoS to defend them in any argument, at any cost.

You obviously haven't read my posts on the trading system, or the ones on skill points being sold in the Crown Store, then.

Then again, which part of my comment do you disagree with? People tar every game with the same brush where lootboxes are concerned, yet they vary enormously from one game to another. I'd personally not be bothered if crates disappeared from ESO, but I'm not going to lobby for that because I don't have an acceptable alternative way of raising the revenue they generate. I don't want core game features sold in the Crown Store and few players would tolerate a return to fixed subscriptions let alone increased subscription rates.

Besides, I don't like crates so I don't buy them, but I don't have a problem with those that do. That doesn't mean I'm defending ZOS, I'm just saying people who want to change things always need to be careful what they wish for, they may end up with something worse that isn't purely optional in the way that crates are.

Hapexamendios · September 2019

So loot boxes take priority over Brexit? Interesting.

InvictusApollo · September 2019

I hope that lootboxes get banned everywhere and ZOS will be forced to start selling their content like. I'd instantly buy some mounts that are only available for gems.

AcadianPaladin · September 2019

Like most things in life, I'd rather make my own choices than have choices removed by legislators that are no smarter than I am and likely know little about gaming.

Diclaimer: I don't do crown crates because I don't buy stuff unless I know exactly what it is before I buy it. But that is my choice. Others can make whatever choice best suits their needs - that is called personal accountability.

idk · September 2019

It seems people are very confused. UK is looking at loot crates like what runescape has which does not even compare to what we have in ESO. If UK, or any government, bans what Runescape offers it is a stretch to think they will entangle what we have in ESO. The differences are astounding and barely anything that is comparable.

Glurin · September 2019

"Loot boxes should not be sold to children and should instead be earned as rewards for game-play, the MPs said."

If that's really what they are aiming at, I can somewhat get behind it. Banning them outright is a huge overreaction. I don't care at all for legislators of any sort dictating what people can and can't do with their own money. But on the other hand, there's EA.

Arca94 · September 2019

Tandor wrote: »

You obviously haven't read my posts on the trading system, or the ones on skill points being sold in the Crown Store, then.

Then again, which part of my comment do you disagree with? People tar every game with the same brush where lootboxes are concerned, yet they vary enormously from one game to another. I'd personally not be bothered if crates disappeared from ESO, but I'm not going to lobby for that because I don't have an acceptable alternative way of raising the revenue they generate. I don't want core game features sold in the Crown Store and few players would tolerate a return to fixed subscriptions let alone increased subscription rates.

Besides, I don't like crates so I don't buy them, but I don't have a problem with those that do. That doesn't mean I'm defending ZOS, I'm just saying people who want to change things always need to be careful what they wish for, they may end up with something worse that isn't purely optional in the way that crates are.

The comment was purely meant as a joke. I mostly PvP and therefore am used to reading and complaining about server performance, where I've noticed you often comment stating that you're having no issues with performance - which is a very frustrating comment to read in those threads. But that's all off topic.

I disagree with you in that I regard Crown crates as gambling, perhaps not as extreme gambling as casinos/betting etc, but you are nonetheless, paying money for something which is completely randomised. People buy crown crates to get a select few items from them, but the chances of people getting exactly what they want for their money are extremely slim. I'd also go further and propose that most people who do buy these crates would much rather a different system to get their items without having to risk an unknown sum of money to get what they want.

Ok, so don't buy them - that's fine, I personally don't. But what is annoying is when exclusive content, much of which seems to be a strong focus of the dev team is locked behind these crates. Not only do you have to pay for something which should ideally be unlockable in game, but you also potentially have to risk a large amount of money to get that item.

I also disagree with the idea that ZoS will not get enough revenue to continue maintaining and adding content to the game if crates are removed. Just having the store alone with previously crown store exclusive items listed at appropriate prices should be enough for them. If not, then I'm not against a subscription only model similar to other MMOs - at least I know what I'm getting with my money.

I personally believe that the loot box model for games has been spiralling out of control in games over the past few years and I think it's great that countries are starting to take action against it. I just don't understand how anyone can take a stance to defend any company doing this.

The only thing I do agree with, is that the UK government really do have a lot more pressing concerns on their hands right now than this!

daemonios · September 2019

Tandor wrote: »

Also, if you want them gone, and personally I have no interest in them but don't object to them existing for those that do want them in an adult-rated game, be sure to come up with an alternative source of revenue such as paying for levels through the crown store, or buying keep unlock tokens in the crown store etc. We already have skill points in the crown store so if you want to dump a significant source of revenue then be careful what you wish for.

You're assuming loot boxes - and Clown Store sales in general, for that matter - are absolutely necessary to keep the game afloat. People already pay for the base game, for expansions, and for ESO+. For all I know, Clown sales are pure profit. If ZOS want to convince me otherwise, they're free to disclose their detailed finances. I, for one, would love to see those books.

Runefang · September 2019

Can't see EA letting the FIFA cash cow getting killed by an incompetent body like the UK parliament, its like they get to print their own money there.

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Tandor wrote: »

What a lot of people don't get is that there are all manner of different types of "loot boxes" across the MMO genre, and they are aimed at all manner of different markets.

ESO's crates aren't pure gambling in the sense that some games' lootboxes are, in that they all contain contents that have an estimated value (your mileage may vary but that's not the point, it merely affects your decision to buy or not) that covers the cost, with an added chance of something better in them. Moreover, they're in a game that has a maturity rating that takes it outside the category of "kids' games" covered by the article.

In any event, which follower of UK politics seriously thinks that MPs are currently capable of doing anything, let alone legislating against lootboxes?

Also, if you want them gone, and personally I have no interest in them but don't object to them existing for those that do want them in an adult-rated game, be sure to come up with an alternative source of revenue such as paying for levels through the crown store, or buying keep unlock tokens in the crown store etc. We already have skill points in the crown store so if you want to dump a significant source of revenue then be careful what you wish for.

They are pure gambling though lol. I'm not going to say I've never bought crates before but it's a dopamine hit in the same way gambling is.

Why do we have to think of alternatives so a company can make more money? They're monetizing all of this already with that revenue source in the game and if it was taken away they would just monetize the things they are going to monetize anyways with it being in game. Taking them out only benefits you in the end. Remember before crown crates when the crown store showcase was really cool and everything worthwhile wasn't stuck behind a money based system with randomized results, especially we with all the data collected on crown drop rates, which cards actually have chances on better items (not every card has a chance), etc.

Bobby_V_Rockit · September 2019

Lol, people hating loot boxes are like healthy people hating MacDonalds. DONT BUY THEM THEN! It literally does not affect you whatsoever

If you dont like something, dont buy it. Simples

Ydrisselle · September 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

What a lot of people don't get is that there are all manner of different types of "loot boxes" across the MMO genre, and they are aimed at all manner of different markets.

ESO's crates aren't pure gambling in the sense that some games' lootboxes are, in that they all contain contents that have an estimated value (your mileage may vary but that's not the point, it merely affects your decision to buy or not) that covers the cost, with an added chance of something better in them. Moreover, they're in a game that has a maturity rating that takes it outside the category of "kids' games" covered by the article.

In any event, which follower of UK politics seriously thinks that MPs are currently capable of doing anything, let alone legislating against lootboxes?

Also, if you want them gone, and personally I have no interest in them but don't object to them existing for those that do want them in an adult-rated game, be sure to come up with an alternative source of revenue such as paying for levels through the crown store, or buying keep unlock tokens in the crown store etc. We already have skill points in the crown store so if you want to dump a significant source of revenue then be careful what you wish for.

They are pure gambling though lol. I'm not going to say I've never bought crates before but it's a dopamine hit in the same way gambling is.

Why do we have to think of alternatives so a company can make more money? They're monetizing all of this already with that revenue source in the game and if it was taken away they would just monetize the things they are going to monetize anyways with it being in game. Taking them out only benefits you in the end. Remember before crown crates when the crown store showcase was really cool and everything worthwhile wasn't stuck behind a money based system with randomized results, especially we with all the data collected on crown drop rates, which cards actually have chances on better items (not every card has a chance), etc.

I think Tandor has a fair point: an outright ban would mean that any TCG/CCG-type games would be banned too, since their card packs are the same. And I'm not talking about Hearthstone or Faeria or the others, but IRL card games like Magic the Gathering or even Pokemon.

idk · September 2019

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lol, people hating loot boxes are like healthy people hating MacDonalds. DONT BUY THEM THEN! It literally does not affect you whatsoever

If you dont like something, dont buy it. Simples

Look at the link. It appears they are looking at a different type of lootbox that has an actual effect on gameplay. Runescape, that is mentioned, has a very different type of lootbox. Even the Getty Image inserted in the article specifically refers to loot boxes that can affect gameplay which is not the case with ESO Crown Crates. Even the previous article

I think people are grasping at straws here based on what is in the article. I see nothing in there that makes it seem ESO will be affected. Personally, I could care less as I am smart enough to avoid purchasing crown crates as they are pretty pointless.

Dusk_Coven · September 2019

Is it gonna be a huge mess if someone lies about their age to play the game (or parents buy the game and let them log in), buys a bunch of loot boxes, then cries foul (or their parents do) to get a refund because they are underage?

I mean really do you seriously think everyone is 18+ in ESO?

Parrot1986 · September 2019

idk wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Lol, people hating loot boxes are like healthy people hating MacDonalds. DONT BUY THEM THEN! It literally does not affect you whatsoever

If you dont like something, dont buy it. Simples

Look at the link. It appears they are looking at a different type of lootbox that has an actual effect on gameplay. Runescape, that is mentioned, has a very different type of lootbox. Even the Getty Image inserted in the article specifically refers to loot boxes that can affect gameplay which is not the case with ESO Crown Crates. Even the previous article

I think people are grasping at straws here based on what is in the article. I see nothing in there that makes it seem ESO will be affected. Personally, I could care less as I am smart enough to avoid purchasing crown crates as they are pretty pointless.

Agree, there’s been a lot of focus on FIFA in the UK as that’s a game with a low age restriction but loot boxes/cards are key for getting better players. Those are the 2 key things the report recommended shouldn’t be allowed. ESO has neither of those things technically so I don’t think you could assume a change to one that affects FIFA would affect ESO.

I don’t see it changing anytime soon in the UK, these reports happen all the time. Getting a law passed is a whole other beast. Especially when this government are incapable of passing wind never mind laws.

starkerealm · September 2019

MJallday wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Since it's aimed at protecting children it's unlikely to affect ESO as the game is rated 18+ in the UK.

The only way it's likely to have an impact is if ZOS are required to buy a gambling licence and decide that's not worth doing, in which case they'll most likely block UK players from purchasing crown crates like many companies did when Belgium outlawed loot boxes.

Personally I think it's a step in the right direction (if it actually goes through - bear in mind the UK parliament isn't in session right now so MPs can't pass any laws and seemingly couldn't organise a *** up in a brewery when they were in session) but it's unlikely to directly affect ESO.

from my understanding, the law is aimed at the principle of loot boxes, so the age of 18+ doesnt matter. - it will be a blanket ban.
however as you say, getting it through parliment at the moment would be like trying to shove an octopus through a venitian blind.

Given this is a, "think of the children," example, getting it through Parliament will be a lot easier than you might expect. This is compounded by the fact that a number of MPs are pissed about several publisher reps outright lying to them in testimony. There's a lot of moving parts, but, the odds of this getting through UK Parliament are pretty decent.

@Danikat is correct, to an extent. The major focus on this is the games aimed at children with heavy gambling mechanic focuses. Also, sports titles, which often carry... I think it's PEGI 3+ ratings. So, suitable for children, even as the game has a predatory gambling system baked into the core reward loop. In that sense, this is less directed at ESO, though it will probably get caught in that. Though it depends on what exact shape the ultimate legislation takes.

Glurin · September 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

@Danikat is correct, to an extent. The major focus on this is the games aimed at children with heavy gambling mechanic focuses. Also, sports titles, which often carry... I think it's PEGI 3+ ratings. So, suitable for children, even as the game has a predatory gambling system baked into the core reward loop. In that sense, this is less directed at ESO, though it will probably get caught in that. Though it depends on what exact shape the ultimate legislation takes.

The whole "only targets games aimed at children" thing is likely to have the same problem as "assault weapon" though. That being they are going to lump everything under the sun into that category. Basically if it isn't one of "those" games that comes out of Japan once in a while, then it obviously is something sold to children. (They'll get those other games from a slightly different "think of the children" angle.)

"But...but...ESRB! PEGI!!!"

Yeah, that's not gonna matter to them. They start with the premise that games are kids stuff, regardless of rating. The rating system might hold them off for a while, as it for the most part has done in the U.S., but eventually they will ram something through. England is already investing in thoughtcrime prosecution, so I'd think twice about pinning everything on a little number printed on the box.