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Fake Tanks: Why can't the finder automatically determine Tank/Heals/DPS?
StabbityDoom
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Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.Edited by VaranisArano on September 8, 2019 2:03AM9 -
StabbityDoom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.0 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
It wont Because ZOS appears to be committed to removing roles from the game. I am totally expecting that with the next update for them to expect us all to self heal, self tank, and self deal damage.4 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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Lol, you are overlooking the obvious thing: no matter what gear and skill loadout someone has, and no matter if they are locked into it after the dungeon starts or not... there's still nothing preventing them from just standing way out in the bushes and spamming light attack without using any abilities whatsoeverStabbityDoom wrote: »Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
And good luck if that kind of player queues in with their friend, because then you won't even be able to kick them.9 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If they are tanking then you're good, if not then just leave. It is better to run with your friends or guildies then to get so upset. Or just at least have one other person with you to kick the problem child.
Zos can't adequately manage their game as it is. What your asking for is not really possible. Just because someone does dps, that doesn't make them a decent dps and with a tanky a taunt does not make a good tanky and so on.
If you want a good dungeon group then make one in a guild or with friends, just three other people that's simple. That will save you lots of aggravation. Good luck
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redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unless they actually force the player to use that taunt, it won't accomplish much. You'll just get a dps with 9 actual skills on their bar and a taunt they never use or a healer with a resto back bar that they never swap to.
Basically, players will find a way to work around anything ZOS puts in place to force roles. If you can suggest something that has no edge case workarounds that players will use, please share that idea.2 -
StabbityDoom✭✭✭✭✭
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Lol, you are overlooking the obvious thing: no matter what gear and skill loadout someone has, and no matter if they are locked into it after the dungeon starts or not... there's still nothing preventing them from just standing way out in the bushes and spamming light attack without using any abilities whatsoeverStabbityDoom wrote: »Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
And good luck if that kind of player queues in with their friend, because then you won't even be able to kick them.
well, can't that happen now anyway?0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
This is correct. Fake tanks are so prevalent because people rarely vote kick them. Creating a thread is so much more effective in reaching the wrong people.StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
This would be the most horrid choice one could make. It means if a group is failing on a boss they are not permitted to change any skills and have to abandon the entire instance as a result.
The realities is that it is very common, especially with a dungeon is new to someone, to change skills. Sometimes even change skills for a specific fight.
So not very well thought out.8 -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
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Well it is already implemented into the group finder. With the role check, sadly to have the group finder enforce the roll check would be a complete rework to ensure those that are "fake tanks / healers" would already pro long the queue timer much more.StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
This would be the most horrid choice one could make. It means if a group is failing on a boss they are not permitted to change any skills and have to abandon the entire instance as a result.
So not very well thought out.
Most who wish for the idea or similar, have the concept of everyone queues equally using desired / required role; if player doesn't match requirements under specific roles (i.e: tank/healer) they remain in queue forever until appropriate skills are placed onto both bars and weapons equipped - and when in said dungeon(s) players are locked into their role until completion / group disbands.
While i am for this concept, realistically it would be a massive overhaul, and as you said most likely a horrid due to misinterpretations on developer side and possible abuse player side (queue up and sit afk while in combat locking them from a kick as petty revenge.)
Unfortunately, best course of action is vote kick and possible report if it becomes more and more apparent when similar names appear doing the same thing over and over again.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
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Well it is already implemented into the group finder. With the role check, sadly to have the group finder enforce the roll check would be a complete rework to ensure those that are "fake tanks / healers" would already pro long the queue timer much more.StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
This would be the most horrid choice one could make. It means if a group is failing on a boss they are not permitted to change any skills and have to abandon the entire instance as a result.
So not very well thought out.
Most who wish for the idea or similar, have the concept of everyone queues equally using desired / required role; if player doesn't match requirements under specific roles (i.e: tank/healer) they remain in queue forever until appropriate skills are placed onto both bars and weapons equipped - and when in said dungeon(s) players are locked into their role until completion / group disbands.
While i am for this concept, realistically it would be a massive overhaul, and as you said most likely a horrid due to misinterpretations on developer side and possible abuse player side (queue up and sit afk while in combat locking them from a kick as petty revenge.)
Unfortunately, best course of action is vote kick and possible report if it becomes more and more apparent when similar names appear doing the same thing over and over again.
The statement you quoted was in reply to something that is not already implemented into the group finder. Please make accurate statements. The role selector is not an actual role check. If it is merely the role we select and it would be horrible if we could not change gear or skills once we were in a dungeon via the GF.
The reason fake tanks are so prevalent is because people chose to not vote kick them very often from the start. They rather enable those players in game and complain in the forums.
The only thing Zos can do is make sure one taunt is unlocked in their skills. Nothing can guarantee they will actually try to tank. There is nothing Zos can reasonably do otherwise since the only thing that defines a tank in this game is having a taunt.
Edit: I can heal or tank on all my DPS characters and some of them can do all three roles. Empower yourself. Kick the fank and tank for the group. That is a win/win scenario that solves all issues.Edited by idk on September 8, 2019 4:24AM1 -
Ardan147✭✭✭✭Then there's the fact that even on one of my tanks I might not be in my proper tanking configuration when I queue up, and plan to switch to the gear and skill bars I intend to use for tanking a dungeon once the queue pops (though usually it is instantaneous or nearly so, but not always). Having the damage output of a wet noodle is a real pain when I'm doing something solo and don't have dps around me to burn everything down for me.This creature called a songbird. What a devious creation! This winged nuisance erodes sanity with its incessant chirping. What a brilliant form of torture!2
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StabbityDoom✭✭✭✭✭
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This would be the most horrid choice one could make. It means if a group is failing on a boss they are not permitted to change any skills and have to abandon the entire instance as a result.
...
So not very well thought out.
I appreciate the first part of this, where you go into why it'd be a problem, but the snark could be done without. I'm not a dungeon-y type of player in ESO, but I remembered how it used to work in other games I've played and was wondering about this option. So maybe I wasn't as familiar with the difficulties presented as you, and for that, I'm appreciative of the information.
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StabbityDoom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The reason fake tanks are so prevalent is because people chose to not vote kick them very often from the start. They rather enable those players in game and complain in the forums.
Hey, if this is aimed at me, you're dead wrong. I'd kick a fank in a heartbeat.
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StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
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Well it is already implemented into the group finder. With the role check, sadly to have the group finder enforce the roll check would be a complete rework to ensure those that are "fake tanks / healers" would already pro long the queue timer much more.StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
This would be the most horrid choice one could make. It means if a group is failing on a boss they are not permitted to change any skills and have to abandon the entire instance as a result.
So not very well thought out.
Most who wish for the idea or similar, have the concept of everyone queues equally using desired / required role; if player doesn't match requirements under specific roles (i.e: tank/healer) they remain in queue forever until appropriate skills are placed onto both bars and weapons equipped - and when in said dungeon(s) players are locked into their role until completion / group disbands.
While i am for this concept, realistically it would be a massive overhaul, and as you said most likely a horrid due to misinterpretations on developer side and possible abuse player side (queue up and sit afk while in combat locking them from a kick as petty revenge.)
Unfortunately, best course of action is vote kick and possible report if it becomes more and more apparent when similar names appear doing the same thing over and over again.
The statement you quoted was in reply to something that is not already implemented into the group finder. Please make accurate statements. The role selector is not an actual role check. If it is merely the role we select and it would be horrible if we could not change gear or skills once we were in a dungeon via the GF.
The reason fake tanks are so prevalent is because people chose to not vote kick them very often from the start. They rather enable those players in game and complain in the forums.
The only thing Zos can do is make sure one taunt is unlocked in their skills. Nothing can guarantee they will actually try to tank. There is nothing Zos can reasonably do otherwise since the only thing that defines a tank in this game is having a taunt.
Edit: I can heal or tank on all my DPS characters and some of them can do all three roles. Empower yourself. Kick the fank and tank for the group. That is a win/win scenario that solves all issues.
Calm down there killer, not suggested, nor aimed shade at you. As well my statement is accurate, and as such. A statement. Despite if you agree with it or not.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »
It is aimed at anyone who complains about it but does not vote to kick them. That does not mean the vote would be successful but if they do not bother they are just as much part of the problem as the fank themselves.0 -
SoLooney✭✭✭✭✭If you're gonna put a check for fake tanks, then there better be a test for dps. If you pull anything lower than 15k for vet dungeons, then you are considered fake dps and cannot join the queue 4
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Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake tanks are so prevalent because people rarely vote kick them.
And the reason for this?
Sometimes you don't know because the dps are so good that you don't really see the tanking, or lack thereof. Fake tanks and fake heals really only show up when the group is in trouble, and then I'm sure people will kick because they have no choice except to either abandon the run or get proper role replacements.
It still DOES matter that they faked roles because they are cutting in front of all the dps who are queuing legitimately. I'm just saying it can be hard to tell. Only certain dungeons will expose a fake tank right away. Like 35k hits from Mighty Chudan.Edited by Dusk_Coven on September 8, 2019 7:28AM0 -
O_LYKOS✭✭✭✭✭
✭When you're level 10 and have no idea how to play the game how is it going to determine what role you are when you dont even know what skills you have and have no gear...
I've fake tanked tons of dungeons and simply equipped an ice staff to taunt. If the game can recognise that you're build has some form of taunt then great. If it can see you dont have a taunt then sure, refuse role entry. If it was at all possible.PC NA - GreggsSausageRoll0 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you're gonna put a check for fake tanks, then there better be a test for dps. If you pull anything lower than 65k for vet dungeons, then you are considered fake dps and cannot join the queue
FTFY
"If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Fake tanks are so prevalent because people rarely vote kick them.
And the reason for this?
Sometimes you don't know because the dps are so good that you don't really see the tanking, or lack thereof. Fake tanks and fake heals really only show up when the group is in trouble, and then I'm sure people will kick because they have no choice except to either abandon the run or get proper role replacements.
We are not talking about a dps that is using a taunt to they hold agro as they are actually tanking. This is about those who do not use a taunt at all and that is pretty obvious.
1. Vote kick fake tanks. Those who do not are just as much part of the problem.
2. Have a second spec for your characters. Every character can tank and/or heal as well as DPS. Kick the fake, change spec and get a dps to fill the spot.
3. Form your own group with at least one or both support roles. Take the randomness out of it.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
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Well it is already implemented into the group finder. With the role check, sadly to have the group finder enforce the roll check would be a complete rework to ensure those that are "fake tanks / healers" would already pro long the queue timer much more.StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
This would be the most horrid choice one could make. It means if a group is failing on a boss they are not permitted to change any skills and have to abandon the entire instance as a result.
So not very well thought out.
Most who wish for the idea or similar, have the concept of everyone queues equally using desired / required role; if player doesn't match requirements under specific roles (i.e: tank/healer) they remain in queue forever until appropriate skills are placed onto both bars and weapons equipped - and when in said dungeon(s) players are locked into their role until completion / group disbands.
While i am for this concept, realistically it would be a massive overhaul, and as you said most likely a horrid due to misinterpretations on developer side and possible abuse player side (queue up and sit afk while in combat locking them from a kick as petty revenge.)
Unfortunately, best course of action is vote kick and possible report if it becomes more and more apparent when similar names appear doing the same thing over and over again.
The statement you quoted was in reply to something that is not already implemented into the group finder. Please make accurate statements. The role selector is not an actual role check. If it is merely the role we select and it would be horrible if we could not change gear or skills once we were in a dungeon via the GF.
The reason fake tanks are so prevalent is because people chose to not vote kick them very often from the start. They rather enable those players in game and complain in the forums.
The only thing Zos can do is make sure one taunt is unlocked in their skills. Nothing can guarantee they will actually try to tank. There is nothing Zos can reasonably do otherwise since the only thing that defines a tank in this game is having a taunt.
Edit: I can heal or tank on all my DPS characters and some of them can do all three roles. Empower yourself. Kick the fank and tank for the group. That is a win/win scenario that solves all issues.
Calm down there killer, not suggested, nor aimed shade at you. As well my statement is accurate, and as such. A statement. Despite if you agree with it or not.
I laughed at the calm down killer part because of how silly it is . Since you are defending your comment I can only guess that you misunderstood what was being said. I suggest you go back and read a little of the history of that conversation, including what I quoted the OP as saying, and you just might under that the OP why the first sentence of your reply to me is wholly inaccurate.
If I am not understanding you correctly then please enlighten us with your explanation of how the GF prevents a player changing gear after you have taken the queue pop which is exactly what you said is already implanted in the GF. That is exactly what OP was suggesting in their follow up comment I quoted.0 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
But then, what if we decide as a group that we need other strategies? Other skills, other buffs, or, say.. An off healer or off tank? You gotta have a chance to adapt after a wipe, or even before if you already know the fights... Wouldn't you agree?1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
But then, what if we decide as a group that we need other strategies? Other skills, other buffs, or, say.. An off healer or off tank? You gotta have a chance to adapt after a wipe, or even before if you already know the fights... Wouldn't you agree?
Exactly and good you brought that point up again.
I pointed that out earlier and got a response that it is already implemented into the group finder which I found odd since I have always been able to change skills and gear after entering a dudgeon via GF. Heck, back when I solo queued as a tank to help GF I often had to change my setup depending on how good or bad the group was.0 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
But then, what if we decide as a group that we need other strategies? Other skills, other buffs, or, say.. An off healer or off tank? You gotta have a chance to adapt after a wipe, or even before if you already know the fights... Wouldn't you agree?
Exactly and good you brought that point up again.
I pointed that out earlier and got a response that it is already implemented into the group finder which I found odd since I have always been able to change skills and gear after entering a dudgeon via GF. Heck, back when I solo queued as a tank to help GF I often had to change my setup depending on how good or bad the group was.
And I'm not saying I'm opposed to some solution, fanks are indeed ruining it for lots of people. Just don't think that's the one.
And again.. If it was easy, it would have been done already.1 -
VaxtinTheWolf✭✭✭✭✭I believe that type of system only works best with predetermined setups, where your chosen class determines your role in a much larger weight than it does in this game. Even more if the gear is class specific as well, and with other restrictions like that.|| AD - Rah'Jiin Lv50 Khajiit Nightblade (Damage) || EP - Generic Argonian Lv50 Argonian Nightblade (Tank) || DC - Zinkotsu Lv50 Breton Nightblade (Healer) ||
|| DC - Ja'Kiro Feral-Heart Lv50 Khajiit Dragonknight (Damage) || EP - VaxtinTheWolf Lv50 Redguard Templar (Tank) || AD - Velik Iranis Lv50 Dark Elf Sorcerer (Tank ) ||
|| EP - Einvarg The Frozen Lv50 Nord Warden (Tank/Healer) || EP - Keem-Ja Lv4 Argonian Necromancer (Healer/Tank) ||PC - North American Server (Champion 1300+)0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I've fake tanked tons of dungeons and simply equipped an ice staff to taunt.
Strictly speaking, if you can taunt the enemy and survive having him pound on you while the group takes him down, you are a real tank regardless of whatever your gear or build looks like. Fake tanks are the ones that queue as a tank to skip the line and then can't/won't do the job."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
But then, what if we decide as a group that we need other strategies? Other skills, other buffs, or, say.. An off healer or off tank? You gotta have a chance to adapt after a wipe, or even before if you already know the fights... Wouldn't you agree?
Exactly and good you brought that point up again.
I pointed that out earlier and got a response that it is already implemented into the group finder which I found odd since I have always been able to change skills and gear after entering a dudgeon via GF. Heck, back when I solo queued as a tank to help GF I often had to change my setup depending on how good or bad the group was.
And I'm not saying I'm opposed to some solution, fanks are indeed ruining it for lots of people. Just don't think that's the one.
And again.. If it was easy, it would have been done already.
And I was saying exactly, that is not a solution.
However, there really is no solution beyond requiring that a taunt be unlocked. Having a taunt is the only requirement the game design has for a tank. Zos could require having one unlocked or even slotted on the bar but all the "fake tanks' will comply, then take it off their bar or not use it.
Thing is they do not care about you and will fulfil that minor inconvenience to get past the only requirement Zos could make for queuing as a tank.
In the end the best, and pretty much the only, solution, is to take control yourself and not allow a computer to chose your fate. I have made multiple pointes above about how to do that. Forming your own group. or most of it including the support roles, is the most successful means to avoid fake tanks. Zos cannot do it for you.1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
Thats silly... My sorc sometimes does vFV as a tank, his cp is dd cp, his gear ebon+jorvulds. And at vault protector, the pug killer, he many times swaps to dd. That's the extreme example i have for the need to swap gear in dungeons, other than that there are many gear changes in dungeons people like to do... Skill changes even more... You cant determine fake tanks. Stop trying to. Just kick those fake tanks at last boss as a community, and they will stop.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
Thats silly... My sorc sometimes does vFV as a tank, his cp is dd cp, his gear ebon+jorvulds. And at vault protector, the pug killer, he many times swaps to dd. That's the extreme example i have for the need to swap gear in dungeons, other than that there are many gear changes in dungeons people like to do... Skill changes even more... You cant determine fake tanks. Stop trying to. Just kick those fake tanks at last boss as a community, and they will stop.
A good point here. Many tanks will swap to DD builds for fights like the Engine Guardian and Drodda because the bosses are untauntable, and the adds only require some crowd control.2 -
TiZzA93✭✭✭I do pledges/ events/ gear farming on my stamsorc dps all the time as tank, i just equip SnB n taunt. My dps still better than the pugs but im also keeping aggro, i dont see a need for a tank except trials/arenas.1