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does ZOS have an intended target dps?
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Muzzick✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »The problem is, I think, and I've said this before, that the range of dps is too wide.
My character is a hybrid, with no attention paid to rotations or buffs. I choose skills for RP or thematic reasons, and because I like how they look. My average dps on this character is somewhere between 2000 and 5000... and I'm able to solo most anything in overland, short of world bosses (and I can still solo a few of those). However, I'm ENTIRELY incapable of contributing to even the basic dungeons, let alone the veteran content. I simply can't tank enough, dps enough or heal enough to be of use, or even to survive, because that content was created for the people doing 30k+ dps.
Meanwhile, those people who are able to do that content are left with a fraction of a game, as EVERYTHING else is rendered entirely trivial. These people will go into a public dungeon, gather up EVERY foe they can find, and obliterate them all in less than a second (I'm not even sure how it's possible, but I've seen it often).
It shouldn't be that way.
There shouldn't be content that is too difficult for players like me to do, and there shouldn't be content that is too easy for the top dps players to do.
My thinking is that the upper level of damage needs to be reined in, probably through some mechanism of diminishing returns. The top dps should be somewhere around 10k. The veteran and group content would need to be scaled back some to account for this, but I think that's manageable.
This way, players like me can still be challenged without being overwhelmed, and dps players can still be challenged by content that would otherwise be trivial to them.
This just sounds like you're not trying at all0 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think people are missing my point.
My character can make his way through almost everything in the game with relative ease, and he's FAR from being optimally built. That means people who ARE optimally built will utterly steamroll almost everything in the game. It shouldn't BE that way.
Now, there's two ways this can be done. First, you could increase the difficulty of most of the content in the game. However, this would be counterproductive and would drive away players who can't or won't adapt (for whatever reason). The alternative is to reduce the upper level of damage output so that regular content can still be somewhat challenging.
This would allow low dps characters like mine to continue regular content as they're used to, and when the harder content is scaled back a bit to compensate for lower overall dps, they would be able to contribute to that harder content.
In addition, it would make regular content less trivial to the high dps players, which can only be a good thing, as it would allow them to be challeneged (somewhat) by more than JUST the high end content.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I think people are missing my point.
My character can make his way through almost everything in the game with relative ease, and he's FAR from being optimally built. That means people who ARE optimally built will utterly steamroll almost everything in the game. It shouldn't BE that way.
Now, there's two ways this can be done. First, you could increase the difficulty of most of the content in the game. However, this would be counterproductive and would drive away players who can't or won't adapt (for whatever reason). The alternative is to reduce the upper level of damage output so that regular content can still be somewhat challenging.
This would allow low dps characters like mine to continue regular content as they're used to, and when the harder content is scaled back a bit to compensate for lower overall dps, they would be able to contribute to that harder content.
In addition, it would make regular content less trivial to the high dps players, which can only be a good thing, as it would allow them to be challeneged (somewhat) by more than JUST the high end content.
So in short lets punish good players for being good and lets reward bad player for being bad ? Great idea.
Oh and btw if You cannot hit high end of the DPS without hitting low end of it or without completly redesigning combat which atm is one of the reasons many people play this game so that would be actually counterproductive.Edited by Juhasow on September 6, 2019 2:42AM2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That thread again ? 20k is hard to get ? Let me show You something https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484128/scalebreaker-ready-setup-for-dd-no-dlc-sets-guaranteed-dps-to-complete-veteran-content/p1
If people cannot reach minimum DPS for group content then problem is not in the game , problem is in the people.Edited by Juhasow on September 6, 2019 2:51AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In a game where dps is not as simplistic as older games like WoW , FF, and SWTOR many have challenges getting some basics down. Most proabally are not worried about it and carry on without a care as long as they are not dying all to often. As a result the range of dps greatly.
I recall the first guild I was in the leadership promoted ignorance. The guild leader could not heal Gaymne Bandu in vet FG (what is now vFG2). It was really sad but is an example of the attitude that can be found in some areas of the game.Edited by idk on September 6, 2019 3:42AM0 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I think people are missing my point.
My character can make his way through almost everything in the game with relative ease, and he's FAR from being optimally built. That means people who ARE optimally built will utterly steamroll almost everything in the game. It shouldn't BE that way.
Now, there's two ways this can be done. First, you could increase the difficulty of most of the content in the game. However, this would be counterproductive and would drive away players who can't or won't adapt (for whatever reason). The alternative is to reduce the upper level of damage output so that regular content can still be somewhat challenging.
This would allow low dps characters like mine to continue regular content as they're used to, and when the harder content is scaled back a bit to compensate for lower overall dps, they would be able to contribute to that harder content.
In addition, it would make regular content less trivial to the high dps players, which can only be a good thing, as it would allow them to be challeneged (somewhat) by more than JUST the high end content.
So in short lets punish good players for being good and lets reward bad player for being bad ? Great idea.
Oh and btw if You cannot hit high end of the DPS without hitting low end of it or without completly redesigning combat which atm is one of the reasons many people play this game so that would be actually counterproductive.
It's not about punishing anyone. It's about making the WHOLE game enjoyable to EVERYONE.
"Good" players will still be good players. Their dps just won't be AS high as it is now. They'll STILL be doing more damage than other players, except that instead of instantly obliterating everything and facing no challenge, they'll occasionally have a challenge from things other than just the veteran content.
"Bad" players won't notice much of a difference, except that they'll be more able to contribute to teams doing higher level content. As it is, these players can't contribute at all. Under my scheme, they wouldn't be contributing as much, but they'd be contributing something, at least. I think that helps EVERYONE.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.2 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭That thread again ? 20k is hard to get ? Let me show You something https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484128/scalebreaker-ready-setup-for-dd-no-dlc-sets-guaranteed-dps-to-complete-veteran-content/p1
If people cannot reach minimum DPS for group content then problem is not in the game , problem is in the people.
if 80% of a class fails a test, it's the problem to the students or to the teacher?-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube1 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That thread again ? 20k is hard to get ? Let me show You something https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484128/scalebreaker-ready-setup-for-dd-no-dlc-sets-guaranteed-dps-to-complete-veteran-content/p1
If people cannot reach minimum DPS for group content then problem is not in the game , problem is in the people.
I mostly agree, but at the same time; it’s so many of them. There’s loads of players that dish out pitiful damage, then like a handful of players that do good/ok and a small few that are like Godly.
I tend to believe most want to do Godly Damage, will even work on putting together a few sets. Maybe develop their own rotation. And fail miserably.
Because the game is not intuitive enough. There’s very important stats that aren’t shown anywhere. Like penetration, Crit Damage( how much is Crit Damage extra) how do jewelry traits really compare? Dot timers...
There’s so much missing information it’s impossible to build your character effectively on intuition alone. Stuff that seems like it should be good isn’t. Stuff that you would pass on is actually really good( looking at you Mother Sorrow, and Alkosh on tank)2 -
SpacemanSpiff1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That thread again ? 20k is hard to get ? Let me show You something https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484128/scalebreaker-ready-setup-for-dd-no-dlc-sets-guaranteed-dps-to-complete-veteran-content/p1
If people cannot reach minimum DPS for group content then problem is not in the game , problem is in the people.
if 80% of a class fails a test, it's the problem to the students or to the teacher?
That analogy doesn't work. Those 80% are in a basic course. The 20% are studying and taking advanced courses to get degrees.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »I think people are missing my point.
My character can make his way through almost everything in the game with relative ease, and he's FAR from being optimally built. That means people who ARE optimally built will utterly steamroll almost everything in the game. It shouldn't BE that way.
Now, there's two ways this can be done. First, you could increase the difficulty of most of the content in the game. However, this would be counterproductive and would drive away players who can't or won't adapt (for whatever reason). The alternative is to reduce the upper level of damage output so that regular content can still be somewhat challenging.
This would allow low dps characters like mine to continue regular content as they're used to, and when the harder content is scaled back a bit to compensate for lower overall dps, they would be able to contribute to that harder content.
In addition, it would make regular content less trivial to the high dps players, which can only be a good thing, as it would allow them to be challeneged (somewhat) by more than JUST the high end content.
So in short lets punish good players for being good and lets reward bad player for being bad ? Great idea.
Oh and btw if You cannot hit high end of the DPS without hitting low end of it or without completly redesigning combat which atm is one of the reasons many people play this game so that would be actually counterproductive.
It's not about punishing anyone. It's about making the WHOLE game enjoyable to EVERYONE.
"Good" players will still be good players. Their dps just won't be AS high as it is now. They'll STILL be doing more damage than other players, except that instead of instantly obliterating everything and facing no challenge, they'll occasionally have a challenge from things other than just the veteran content.
"Bad" players won't notice much of a difference, except that they'll be more able to contribute to teams doing higher level content. As it is, these players can't contribute at all. Under my scheme, they wouldn't be contributing as much, but they'd be contributing something, at least. I think that helps EVERYONE.
I don't really see why you think you can speak for what "good" players want or how they should play.
What if they don't want to be "challenged" in overland content, or base game dungeon content? What if they want there to be content where all of the power they've built up (in gear, CP, and skill) allows them to obliterate everything in sight?
And regardless this is all ridiculous because "bad" players can contribute in higher level content by putting a little bit of effort into it. It takes *very little* thought or effort to go from totally useless to being well-equipped to at least contribute in base game vet content.
Have you considered that this is a problem with how you play the game, not with how the game is designed?0 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭For Vet DLC trials a bare minimal of 30k dps for all DDs in the group. And even that pushing the boundaries of failing in vet trials like Vet MOL because DPS is too low for DPS race.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That thread again ? 20k is hard to get ? Let me show You something https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484128/scalebreaker-ready-setup-for-dd-no-dlc-sets-guaranteed-dps-to-complete-veteran-content/p1
If people cannot reach minimum DPS for group content then problem is not in the game , problem is in the people.
if 80% of a class fails a test, it's the problem to the students or to the teacher?
Students mostly. Of course there can be exceptions but in most of the cases I can imagine fault will be on students side. To say definietly whom fault was that You would have to provide more data about teaching and learning procceses in that particular class instead of asking vague question. Context matters. It's like asking if 80% people preffer red apples rather then green is it fault of red or green apples ?Edited by Juhasow on September 6, 2019 7:12PM0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kylewwefan wrote: »That thread again ? 20k is hard to get ? Let me show You something https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484128/scalebreaker-ready-setup-for-dd-no-dlc-sets-guaranteed-dps-to-complete-veteran-content/p1
If people cannot reach minimum DPS for group content then problem is not in the game , problem is in the people.
I mostly agree, but at the same time; it’s so many of them. There’s loads of players that dish out pitiful damage, then like a handful of players that do good/ok and a small few that are like Godly.
I tend to believe most want to do Godly Damage, will even work on putting together a few sets. Maybe develop their own rotation. And fail miserably.
Because the game is not intuitive enough. There’s very important stats that aren’t shown anywhere. Like penetration, Crit Damage( how much is Crit Damage extra) how do jewelry traits really compare? Dot timers...
There’s so much missing information it’s impossible to build your character effectively on intuition alone. Stuff that seems like it should be good isn’t. Stuff that you would pass on is actually really good( looking at you Mother Sorrow, and Alkosh on tank)
The reason most people have crap dps is because all of overland is set to BabyEasy mode where you don’t even need skills, gear, or food to succeed.
Newbies are being taught they never have to improve, and so it’s entirely up to players to correct them when they actually venture into a real game and not the cakewalk.0 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »I think people are missing my point.
My character can make his way through almost everything in the game with relative ease, and he's FAR from being optimally built. That means people who ARE optimally built will utterly steamroll almost everything in the game. It shouldn't BE that way.
Now, there's two ways this can be done. First, you could increase the difficulty of most of the content in the game. However, this would be counterproductive and would drive away players who can't or won't adapt (for whatever reason). The alternative is to reduce the upper level of damage output so that regular content can still be somewhat challenging.
This would allow low dps characters like mine to continue regular content as they're used to, and when the harder content is scaled back a bit to compensate for lower overall dps, they would be able to contribute to that harder content.
In addition, it would make regular content less trivial to the high dps players, which can only be a good thing, as it would allow them to be challeneged (somewhat) by more than JUST the high end content.
So in short lets punish good players for being good and lets reward bad player for being bad ? Great idea.
Oh and btw if You cannot hit high end of the DPS without hitting low end of it or without completly redesigning combat which atm is one of the reasons many people play this game so that would be actually counterproductive.
It's not about punishing anyone. It's about making the WHOLE game enjoyable to EVERYONE.
"Good" players will still be good players. Their dps just won't be AS high as it is now. They'll STILL be doing more damage than other players, except that instead of instantly obliterating everything and facing no challenge, they'll occasionally have a challenge from things other than just the veteran content.
"Bad" players won't notice much of a difference, except that they'll be more able to contribute to teams doing higher level content. As it is, these players can't contribute at all. Under my scheme, they wouldn't be contributing as much, but they'd be contributing something, at least. I think that helps EVERYONE.
I don't really see why you think you can speak for what "good" players want or how they should play.
What if they don't want to be "challenged" in overland content, or base game dungeon content? What if they want there to be content where all of the power they've built up (in gear, CP, and skill) allows them to obliterate everything in sight?
And regardless this is all ridiculous because "bad" players can contribute in higher level content by putting a little bit of effort into it. It takes *very little* thought or effort to go from totally useless to being well-equipped to at least contribute in base game vet content.
Have you considered that this is a problem with how you play the game, not with how the game is designed?
The problem with making it possible for players to obliterate everything is that it takes away that content from everyone else. I can't count the number of times I've been in a dungeon or delve and had nothing to DO because someone rounds up everything on the map and instantly wipes them out.
I'm quite capable of making a character who can do all that damage... but the point is I don't WANT to. First, it trivializes 90% of the game, and I don't want to restrict myself to just a handful of veteran dungeons. Second, I recognize that if I go around killing everything, it means no one else can enjoy that content either.
Sure, there's catharsis and ego stroking in being so powerful you can annihilate everything, but you can only pull the wings off flies for so long before it becomes boring... and that's not good for the game as a whole.
When I say these things, it's not only for my own sake. I suggest these things with an eye toward the game's overall health.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.0
