Are all endgame builds similar?

kralskritek · September 2019

Hello,
I am fairly new player and I dont have any character max leveled. But I was interested in end-game builds so I decided to look up some.

My main is DPS stamplar, so I found this build:
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-templar-build-pve/

There are only 3 class based skills (and all mostly buffs), which fairly sucks to be honest, I enjoy templar skills (like jabs).

Ok, so I tried another build - warden
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-build-pve/
Again, 4 skills and the other skills are almost identical as the skills in the templar build...

DK - https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-build-pve/
Again, 4 unique skilss and the rest very similar as all stamina builds...

I really enjoy the game because of the class diversity... I have 3 chars at lvl 30 magicka templar, stamina templar, and DK, warden.
I am using as much as possible of the class skills right now and that feels like you really play unique class and that is what I find extremely enjoyable.
But i am also interested in end game content (group content, not housing) and meta builds for raids/dungeons are awfuly similiar for stamina classes. I dont know how it is
for magicka, but... i am fairly dissapointed..

How endgame builds works? Do you have to follow the best dps builds in order to be useful in trials? Or are the builds somehow different?

If the game cannot offer me some kind of build diversity, I will not enjoy the end game and that means, i will not enjoy this game to carry on...

How is it with magicka based classes? Is is the same story? And pvp? Same meta builds without big diversity?

As I said, I enjoy most group-content and experimenting with all classes and builds... but this really scares me...
Do you enjoy playing the same skills all over? That is question for people who have been playing ESO for x years?
Would you recommend some classes and type (magicka x stamina) where the meta builds for PvE are diverse? I would definitely play them..

Thank you

mairwen85 · September 2019

Yes.

You answered your own question with your research.

Idinuse · September 2019

It didn’t use to be this way entirely, but what you experience is ZOS’s shiny new “balancing” feature of ESO, effectively killing the class’s uniqueness and with that a huge portion of the fun in the game.

“Play As You Want” might actually be a typo, It might be it should have read “Pay as you want”...

TheUrbanWizard · September 2019

Pvp is different, much more diversity and unique builds that fit individual play styles,

OwnerOfSuccuby · September 2019

I change my gear so many times - that i spend much more than 1000+transmutations, a lot of gold and i hate zos.

So may be it is more simple to play like imbecill with fluffy+dot, than make some thing unique.

They change sets, skills and even race skills.

No balance and no stability becouse of this stupid changes. I already tired to farm this shiit , and with each update want to change game more and more.

You make build? Spend 5000 hours on it, ok now we remake it.

Do all this garbage again.

Burn in hell *** !!!

Even lore master run away from ZOS, and i think a lot of programmists too.

Becouse they see garbage that game go to.

Each update - you think it is bad, but it is even worse than you think about it.

MajBludd · September 2019

Class, racial, and skill line passives should not be changed almost every major dlc or patch. It's starting to wear thin with people. Make a build and then 2 months later its screwed up and you have to start over.

If they werent so quick with their changes and spread them out over a period of time it wouldn't be as bad. But recently they want to change everything in one dlc. Then in a few months they are doing it again.

Very frustrating and I guess that's why some people have taken a break or left for good.

kralskritek · September 2019

OwnerOfSuccuby wrote: »

I change my gear so many times - that i spend much more than 1000+transmutations, a lot of gold and i hate zos.

So may be it is more simple to play like imbecill with fluffy+dot, than make some thing unique.

They change sets, skills and even race skills.

No balance and no stability becouse of this stupid changes. I already tired to farm this shiit , and with each update want to change game more and more.

You make build? Spend 5000 hours on it, ok now we remake it.

Do all this garbage again.

Burn in hell *** !!!

Even lore master run away from ZOS, and i think a lot of programmists too.

Becouse they see garbage that game go to.

Each update - you think it is bad, but it is even worse than you think about it.

So what you re basically saying is that the game is not worth playing right now? :O

satanio · September 2019

kralskritek wrote: »

How endgame builds works? Do you have to follow the best dps builds in order to be useful in trials? Or are the builds somehow different?

You don't need to follow the meta, as long as you perform as good as meta builds. You have posted builds that relay heavily on vMA daggers, which are considered to be best for single target damage right now. But that is actually not entirely true, they perform better than normal set only if you have access to more than 4 single target dots (example: stamina dk) or is class completely without identity (example: stamina sorc).

What you can and should do is:
1. do your research online (streamer's websites, www.esologs.com) - you already partially did this, but I really recommend esologs if you are already familiar with the game (if you try really hard you can even copy players rotations

)
2. try following the build and modify it according to your liking, situation and group.

So at the end... no, meta is not that stale. At least I don't think it is. I can swap 2h, for DW or go full bow/bow on my necro and still deliver what I need to. You'll end up swapping only 4-5 skills but that's enought for me.

[/quote]

master_vanargand · September 2019

You can make any weak builds you like.

VaranisArano · September 2019

Before I break down why this happens, I want to make a point about end-game content.

Dungeons: as long as you can effectively tank, heal, or DPS, you don't have to follow the meta builds. It just takes experience to reach that point, and it's easier when you do follow the meta if you aren't at that point.

Trials: most groups prefer that you follow the meta, because when you've got 12 people playing together, its easier when you all bring the most effective builds.

1.Part of the problem is that you are looking at Stamina Builds.

ESO was originally designed for all players to use Magicka with stamina just for flavor, so unique stamina options for each class are severely limited. Stamina builds end up very reliant on their weapon skills because of this, which results in very similar builds. Stam has always suffered from that problem.

Do note that doesn't necessarily mean similar playstyle. Despite this patch being very focused on DOTs for the meta, you can still have unique playstyles. Stam Sorcs remain focused on AOEs due to Hurricane, Stam DKs remain focused on their class DOTs due to Venomous Claw, etc.

Magicka builds will have more distinctness in terms of playstyle because they have more class skills that are useful. However, you still have the same emphasis on the meta skills and a limited skill bar, so certain skills that are excellent this patch will show up again and again.

Aka, everyone and their mother is using Soul Splitting Trap this patch.

2. The other part of the problem is that if you look at end game builds as developed by players for other players, those builds focus on the meta - the most effective tactic/skill/gear available.

The meta for PVE focuses on effective rotations for DDs, and group support that boosts damage for tanks and healers.

If you have enough experience and good enough DPS, you can do end game content with a non-meta build. But in terms of builds that you find online, expect them to focus on the meta and the most effective rotations of skills because what's the point of offering builds that have more variety but are objectively less than the most effective?

So the lack of diversity you see has a two-part cause: end game players want the most effective builds and Stamina has very few choices to begin with.

You don't have to play a meta build...but most groups will appreciate you using either the meta or a build/rotation That's nearly as effective.

ATomiX69 · September 2019

If you look for endgame diversity and class identity dont play this game.

VaranisArano · September 2019

kralskritek wrote: »

OwnerOfSuccuby wrote: »

I change my gear so many times - that i spend much more than 1000+transmutations, a lot of gold and i hate zos.

So may be it is more simple to play like imbecill with fluffy+dot, than make some thing unique.

They change sets, skills and even race skills.

No balance and no stability becouse of this stupid changes. I already tired to farm this shiit , and with each update want to change game more and more.

You make build? Spend 5000 hours on it, ok now we remake it.

Do all this garbage again.

Burn in hell *** !!!

Even lore master run away from ZOS, and i think a lot of programmists too.

Becouse they see garbage that game go to.

Each update - you think it is bad, but it is even worse than you think about it.

So what you re basically saying is that the game is not worth playing right now? :O

If you want to follow the meta builds online AND you don't like changing your builds to fit the new meta every three months with every major update, then no. Its probably wise not to start down that path. Because ZOS changes the meta every update and has been doing so for years since One Tamriel.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean you can't do end game content.

For Dungeons, you'll only have to change for major gameplay changes, because dungeons are just less challenging than trials.

Probably the best bet if you want to do trials is to find a relaxed guild and run with them for the gear they want. You won't be chasing leaderboard scores, but you are less likely to be constantly changing up your gear every update.

Delparis · September 2019

except 2 or 3 skills proper to the class all builds share the same skill bars and the same meta gear.

Hallothiel · September 2019

Depends if you take all the leaderboard stuff seriously.

If not bothered about it, could just look for a decent guild that enjoys running trials for the hell of it, and have some fun.

Yes, of course you would have to gave an idea about gear/rotation and mechs etc, but it would not be so rigid, and you could still do the content. Even vet.

I belong to a lovely guild and we do vet trials without much drama but lots of laughs.

starkerealm · September 2019

Short answer? A lot of Alcast's stam builds are the same.

A slightly longer answer is: There are a lot of useful common abilities. Enough that you can build characters around them, and then transplant that build to multiple classes.

There is the potential for diversity, but you're not going to find that sticking to a single content creator's builds. At least not one who's preoccupied with being, "the best."

If Alcast's builds feel too samey, I'd suggest looking at @Xynode's work. You'll see some overlap, but there is a lot more variety there.

EDIT: also a StamKnight build that doesn't drive based on class abilities hurts my soul. There's so much good stuff for StamKnights. The only part that should be cookiecutter on them is their bow skills.

Delparis · September 2019

Hallothiel wrote: »

Depends if you take all the leaderboard stuff seriously.

If not bothered about it, could just look for a decent guild that enjoys running trials for the hell of it, and have some fun.

Yes, of course you would have to gave an idea about gear/rotation and mechs etc, but it would not be so rigid, and you could still do the content. Even vet.

I belong to a lovely guild and we do vet trials without much drama but lots of laughs.

No as you'll be unperformaning greatly compared to others.
I tank somethimes in dungeon for pledges and got in group some CP+810 that were doing 10-12k dps. They are maybe some pvp players doing pve or some pve players with bad skills, gear. very annoying to run with.

mitchtheelder · September 2019

yes

how?

Liko You Tube videos (ctrl+c)=(ctrl+ v)=similar builds

cheers

starkerealm · September 2019

Since I'm sitting here waiting...

kralskritek wrote: »

How endgame builds works? Do you have to follow the best dps builds in order to be useful in trials? Or are the builds somehow different?

Put bluntly, Alcast's builds are overkill. Some stuff like Beast Trap is very appealing, and can even show up in mag builds. But you're not going to get kicked from a competent prog group for deviating.

That said, there is a community issue. There are a lot of people who do espouse cookie cutter "best" builds. That's not something about the game itself.

Additionally, the recent changes have been pushing for further class identity. When you look at necro builds, you'll find a lot of the "auto-include" abilities are conspicuously absent.

All of this said, there are a few abilities you'll always see. Tanks will run pierce because they need a taunt, for example. But, as a whole, there is more potential diversity than you'll see from one source.

MLGProPlayer · September 2019

Pretty much. All classes generally use the same skills.

You have a bit of choice when it comes to gear (usually about 5-6 viable sets).

Hallothiel · September 2019

Delparis wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Depends if you take all the leaderboard stuff seriously.

If not bothered about it, could just look for a decent guild that enjoys running trials for the hell of it, and have some fun.

Yes, of course you would have to gave an idea about gear/rotation and mechs etc, but it would not be so rigid, and you could still do the content. Even vet.

I belong to a lovely guild and we do vet trials without much drama but lots of laughs.

No as you'll be unperformaning greatly compared to others.
I tank somethimes in dungeon for pledges and got in group some CP+810 that were doing 10-12k dps. They are maybe some pvp players doing pve or some pve players with bad skills, gear. very annoying to run with.

Did you not read the bit where I said you would have to have an idea about gear & rotations? Not suggesting that people go in unprepared or ‘underperform’ but that one does not necessarily have to follow the meta. And to run with a nice guild that plays for fun?

And for the record? Majority of players in my pvp guild can easily do pve content. Without breaking a sweat. Not so the other way around. 😉

Beardimus · September 2019

kralskritek wrote: »

Hello,
I am fairly new player and I dont have any character max leveled. But I was interested in end-game builds so I decided to look up some.

My main is DPS stamplar, so I found this build:
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-templar-build-pve/

There are only 3 class based skills (and all mostly buffs), which fairly sucks to be honest, I enjoy templar skills (like jabs).

Ok, so I tried another build - warden
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-build-pve/
Again, 4 skills and the other skills are almost identical as the skills in the templar build...

DK - https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-build-pve/
Again, 4 unique skilss and the rest very similar as all stamina builds...

I really enjoy the game because of the class diversity... I have 3 chars at lvl 30 magicka templar, stamina templar, and DK, warden.
I am using as much as possible of the class skills right now and that feels like you really play unique class and that is what I find extremely enjoyable.
But i am also interested in end game content (group content, not housing) and meta builds for raids/dungeons are awfuly similiar for stamina classes. I dont know how it is
for magicka, but... i am fairly dissapointed..

How endgame builds works? Do you have to follow the best dps builds in order to be useful in trials? Or are the builds somehow different?

If the game cannot offer me some kind of build diversity, I will not enjoy the end game and that means, i will not enjoy this game to carry on...

How is it with magicka based classes? Is is the same story? And pvp? Same meta builds without big diversity?

As I said, I enjoy most group-content and experimenting with all classes and builds... but this really scares me...
Do you enjoy playing the same skills all over? That is question for people who have been playing ESO for x years?
Would you recommend some classes and type (magicka x stamina) where the meta builds for PvE are diverse? I would definitely play them..

Thank you

Hi @kralskritek there is some truth in what you say to a degree but honnestly its complex.

In short you play how you want to play!!! Plenty of things work in end game, I'm a theory crafter thru and thru and often talk with others on here that do the same. Sure ill see what works for the top guys and ask alot of annoying questions but ill go my own way.

End game issue is people love to copy streamer builds and that 0.01% meta. Then yes as you say options are limited. Is that last bit always needed? Heck no. Is it sometimes - score run, HM, no death, etc perhaps.

I didn't even get my stuff together for the first year, it was vMA that made me sort myself out. Even then i cleared it <20k DPS!! But prior to running it i had <15k!!

Builds matter yes. Absolutely but there a huge amount of flex on the fringe. For all roles.

Also PvP is my end game as you have more flex, lots of niche things work. Like a tool for a specific job!!

You are sub L50, really don't worry about all that. Enjoy the game, play as you want, have fun, let end game come to you. You won't be let down, there's plenty to do.

starkerealm · September 2019

Delparis wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Depends if you take all the leaderboard stuff seriously.

If not bothered about it, could just look for a decent guild that enjoys running trials for the hell of it, and have some fun.

Yes, of course you would have to gave an idea about gear/rotation and mechs etc, but it would not be so rigid, and you could still do the content. Even vet.

I belong to a lovely guild and we do vet trials without much drama but lots of laughs.

No as you'll be unperformaning greatly compared to others.
I tank somethimes in dungeon for pledges and got in group some CP+810 that were doing 10-12k dps. They are maybe some pvp players doing pve or some pve players with bad skills, gear. very annoying to run with.

That's a player issue, not a build issue. You can pull over 15k off of facerolling with a decent weave. When we see people under that, it's frequently players who don't understand that weaving is a thing.

HowlKimchi · September 2019

For PvE, yes. Mind numbingly so. For PvP, it's very very diverse.

Tigerseye · September 2019

I'm no expert, in this game, but I believe in building according to how I think things should be, not how they are and I don't care if it's not, currently, optimal to do so.

If that means I don't do much high end stuff, then oh well.

In my opinion, a DPS in a 5 active skills (at a time) game, should have, on each bar:

1. A dot.
2. A spammable (ideally, a class specific one, for flavour).
3. A self heal.
4. An AOE (ranged, or melee).
5. An immobilise/slow (ranged), or gap closer (melee).

I know that isn't how this game is built to be, but it should be.

I realise not all of these skills would be necessary in every fight, but that is fine too.

Ironically, making people choose from a range of (equally viable) skills, with a certain function, each time (as opposed to allowing them complete freedom) would increase build diversity; not reduce it.

Makes it far easier to balance, too.

Also, ranged weapons should be equally viable, even when used in melee range.

Otherwise, you're basically ruling them out, as an optimal choice, in most situations.

Most MMOs figured all this out years ago, by the way...

HowlKimchi · September 2019

Tigerseye wrote: »

I'm no expert, in this game, but I believe in building according to how I think things should be, not how they are and I don't care if it's not, currently, optimal to do so.

If that means I don't do much high end stuff, then oh well.

In my opinion, a DPS in a 5 active skills (at a time) game, should have, on each bar:

1. A dot.
2. A spammable (ideally, a class specific one, for flavour).
3. A self heal.
4. An AOE (ranged, or melee).
5. An immobilise/slow (ranged), or gap closer (melee).

I know that isn't how this game is built to be, but it should be.

I realise not all of these skills would be necessary in every fight, but that is fine too.

Ironically, making people choose from a range of (equally viable) skills, with a certain function, each time (as opposed to allowing them complete freedom) would increase build diversity; not reduce it.

Also, ranged weapons should be equally viable, even when used in melee range.

Otherwise, you're basically ruling them out, as an optimal choice, in most situations.

Most MMOs figured all this out years ago, by the way...

Yes that is a valid way of playing the game. But if you want to be competitive in end game, which is what the OP is looking at, then in PVE you will be stuck with the same sets.

Fortunately, for PVP, theorycrafting and buildcrafting at max level is always a fun time, and you aren't gimping yourself by not running certain sets. The diversity within and compared to other classes in PVP is really really good.

Wifeaggro13 · September 2019

kralskritek wrote: »

Hello,
I am fairly new player and I dont have any character max leveled. But I was interested in end-game builds so I decided to look up some.

My main is DPS stamplar, so I found this build:
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-templar-build-pve/

There are only 3 class based skills (and all mostly buffs), which fairly sucks to be honest, I enjoy templar skills (like jabs).

Ok, so I tried another build - warden
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-warden-build-pve/
Again, 4 skills and the other skills are almost identical as the skills in the templar build...

DK - https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-build-pve/
Again, 4 unique skilss and the rest very similar as all stamina builds...

I really enjoy the game because of the class diversity... I have 3 chars at lvl 30 magicka templar, stamina templar, and DK, warden.
I am using as much as possible of the class skills right now and that feels like you really play unique class and that is what I find extremely enjoyable.
But i am also interested in end game content (group content, not housing) and meta builds for raids/dungeons are awfuly similiar for stamina classes. I dont know how it is
for magicka, but... i am fairly dissapointed..

How endgame builds works? Do you have to follow the best dps builds in order to be useful in trials? Or are the builds somehow different?

If the game cannot offer me some kind of build diversity, I will not enjoy the end game and that means, i will not enjoy this game to carry on...

How is it with magicka based classes? Is is the same story? And pvp? Same meta builds without big diversity?

As I said, I enjoy most group-content and experimenting with all classes and builds... but this really scares me...
Do you enjoy playing the same skills all over? That is question for people who have been playing ESO for x years?
Would you recommend some classes and type (magicka x stamina) where the meta builds for PvE are diverse? I would definitely play them..

Thank you

Welcome to the homogenized dumbed down design.if the game got any easier it would boot it self up and play itself. From 2016 on the game keeps getting incrementally worse with every patch and more financially predatory.

Wifeaggro13 · September 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Since I'm sitting here waiting...

kralskritek wrote: »

How endgame builds works? Do you have to follow the best dps builds in order to be useful in trials? Or are the builds somehow different?

Put bluntly, Alcast's builds are overkill. Some stuff like Beast Trap is very appealing, and can even show up in mag builds. But you're not going to get kicked from a competent prog group for deviating.

That said, there is a community issue. There are a lot of people who do espouse cookie cutter "best" builds. That's not something about the game itself.

Additionally, the recent changes have been pushing for further class identity. When you look at necro builds, you'll find a lot of the "auto-include" abilities are conspicuously absent.

All of this said, there are a few abilities you'll always see. Tanks will run pierce because they need a taunt, for example. But, as a whole, there is more potential diversity than you'll see from one source.

The recent changes are pushing homogenized game play. The latest patches are all but erasing roles and class identity.

billp_ESO · September 2019

I think the fundamental problem is the ridiculous limit of 5 skills at a time, to accommodate console controllers.

Everybody is limited to just a handful of skills, and most people end up with the same ones. If you went magic, you are using a staff. So you have one or two staff skills. Maybe one or two class skills. Oops, that's all you get.

You went stamina? Ok, one or two weapon skills, and one or two class skills. Ooops, that's all you get.

Runkorko · September 2019

dead theme...

starkerealm · September 2019

Tigerseye wrote: »

I'm no expert, in this game, but I believe in building according to how I think things should be, not how they are and I don't care if it's not, currently, optimal to do so.

This will lead you to making fundamental mistakes with games. I should know. That's how I tended to approach games when I was in my teens.

Tigerseye wrote: »

In my opinion, a DPS in a 5 active skills (at a time) game, should have, on each bar:

1. A dot.
2. A spammable (ideally, a class specific one, for flavour).
3. A self heal.
4. An AOE (ranged, or melee).
5. An immobilise/slow (ranged), or gap closer (melee).

I know that isn't how this game is built to be, but it should be.

1 through 4 are fine. Though, honestly, you probably only need 3 on one bar, and can add a buff on the other bar. 1 and 4 are a bit more complicated, because they'll frequently overlap. For example, a sorc is likely to use Liquid Lightning and Wall of Zap. Both are ground based AoEs, that will deal damage over time (though they're not true DoTs.)

Ranged #5 is where you went off the reservation and deserve to be kicked from groups.

So, Crowd Control is the tank's job. I don't care if you want to do it as the DPS, it is not your job, and it will sabotage the group.

When you CC a target, that target gains CC immunity. When the DPS CCs a trash add, that means the Tank cannot manage or reposition them properly.

With #5, you are actively working against your group and messing with the tank. Your ranged #5 will cause wipes in some content. In other content, you will only succeed in making life extremely unpleasant for the tank.

Your melee #5 will get you killed. So, that's fine. It's unnecessary in most situations for the DPS, but, I mean, that's a self correcting problem.

HowlKimchi · September 2019

billp_ESO wrote: »

I think the fundamental problem is the ridiculous limit of 5 skills at a time, to accommodate console controllers.

Everybody is limited to just a handful of skills, and most people end up with the same ones. If you went magic, you are using a staff. So you have one or two staff skills. Maybe one or two class skills. Oops, that's all you get.

You went stamina? Ok, one or two weapon skills, and one or two class skills. Ooops, that's all you get.

No. the problem isn't the cap of 12 skills that can be slotted at a time. That's plenty for a non tab-target action mmo. The problem is the devs choosing to go through the path of least resistance in terms of balance.

i.e: "man balancing unique class mechanics is hard, lets just nerf these class mechanics and make the skills accesible to every class bis.... There everyone is dealing similar damage by using the generic skills! Balance!!!"