Lets Talk About Cast Times And How They Ruin Classes
TheRealSniker
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svUEENMmD-A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqpACubbi0QTL;DR of my video
Nightblades 2 out of 3 offensive skills are delayed and cannot be hit after a traditional stun.
Nightblade is also the only spec that without the help of the CP system has to waste a GCD on a stun, yet after a stun the only skill that can be guaranteed hitting is their spammable...
This ironically makes the most combo focused burst spec the worst class to combo with cause all their burst abilities are delayed and never hit.
Even Magicka DKs have a much easier time landing their burst combo that has 0 counterplay.
Even when the cast time didnt exist people still managed to break free from a stun before getting incapped if they were fast enough.
And if you do not decide to stun ur opponent before trying to land an Incap youre gonna reward your opponent with a free cc immunity because Silence only works when the target is unaware of the effect...
And lets not forget how that mechanic doesnt even work on Stamina specs.Zenimax has to stop treating every class in the game equally when it comes to stuns and burst abilities cause specs who have delayed damage built into them like magsorc and wardens are fine with wasting a GCD to stun, they can time their stun with their delayed damage ability and follow up with something guaranteed resulting in huge burst, and again Nightblades cannot do that.
There is a reason why Magblades have been running the stamina morph of Death Stroke when it still had a stun, its because Nightblades are crippled without at least 1 such ability/mechanic.
In the video im also talking about the Tactician CP perk and how the stamina spec will be crippled if Zenimax ever decides to remove or tweak it even slightly.
Is any of this healthy?
Soul Harvest and Incapacitating Strike dont even feel strong enough for the cast time to be necessary in comparison to ults like onslaught where the ult has a huge impact.
On top of that onslaught is not only in a better spot than incap because its more impactful, but it can also be a guaranteed hit after landing a dizzying swing because you cannot break free from dizzy before u get hit with an onslaught.
Dawnbreaker is in a better spot than incap because it has a stun tied to the skill which doesnt force a player to waste a GCD to stun his opponent and cannot be dodge rolled.
And why didnt Crescent Sweep receive a cast time? Is there possible Bias in the combat balance team?
Easiest solutions:
1.) Give Death Stroke(Both Morphs) its stun back(Could be silence at 70ult and stun at 120ult)
2.) Reduce the cast time by half or remove it completely
3.) Reduce the min. travel time of Grim Focus Proc
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Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me the cast times kills the combat flow while i do not feel i have a better chance to counter what they actually wanted to achieve. I either would have seen them coming either way or not at all independent of the casttime. It just feels terrible to use those cast time ultimates.
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus1 -
TheRealSniker✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me the cast times kills the combat flow while i do not feel i have a better chance to counter what they actually wanted to achieve. I either would have seen them coming either way or not at all independent of the casttime. It just feels terrible to use those cast time ultimates.
Right? Especially when the ult that has a cast time tied to it isnt impactful enough and doesnt allow u to follow up with anything else cause ur target already backed off...0 -
Trandaner✭✭✭Agreed, combat this patch is in a really bad state, the skill cap is lower than it ever was due to the massively over buffed DOTs, aswell as the existence of cast times on burst abilities. As you mentioned Nightblades, I can totally agree with you there. It is supposed to be the most bursty class in the game, but you just simply don't stand a change against a skilled player when your main burst combo, consisting of incap into bow proc which both have a delay, is just dodged or blocked. Also ZOS doesn't want hard hitting skills to have a stun, so what are we gonna do about dizzying swing?4 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Remove cast times from ultimates.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.5 -
I do have to agree with most of the things Sniker talked about in his video.
I highly doubt that this will be fixed by giving a stun to incap/soul harvest. ZOS has moved away from that and I doubt they'll be going back to giving it a stun. I am also not a fan of abilities that do too much and are very cheap. However, removing the cast time and perhaps considering to lower or remove the bow proc travel time could improve the nightblade experience, making it worth "wasting" a gcd on a stun. Nightblades need reliable burst damage combos. We could arguably incentivise towards that by giving abilities a unique interaction with other abilities. For example, when Incap/Soul Harvest are used, any bow procs casted within the next 6 seconds don't have travel time (or have it lowered to the point where it's neglectable and they can reliably land before the oponent breaks free from a stun and rolls away) - that would be an option, so that the bow procs aren't always that strong."You are the universe experiencing itself." - Alan Watts.1 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cast times are not only bad from a gameplay side of view but also come with a huge drawback due to performance.
If you're playing PvP during primetime you'll notice how the .4 seconds casttime of incap, or the casttime on Dawnbreaker become longer, a lot longer.
On Pc EU we're talking about up to 1.6 seconds that's 4 times as long as the cast time should actually be because the servers in PvP can't handle them.
For Incap and nightblade this means you won't be securing kills properly, when using Dawnbreaker you have a good chance of missing multiple Dawnbreakers because once the ability actually fires the enemy has already walked out of range, even if the enemy is a narcotic sloth.
The counterplay for not getting killed by burst ult was learning to read a fight and knowing when to expect an ultimate and when it will actually be threatening to you. The attacker on the other side had to force mistakes on the enemy side to then overwhelm him with a fast burst.
The counterplay happened way before the actual ult dropped which was great as it brought tactical thinking into a fight, now you're just reacting to the things being thrown at you rather than try to outsmart your enemy.3 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm playing stamnb in medium armor since the beta (have to admit that I stopped playing for almost a year at one point tho) and also do 1vX, high end duels and high MMR Bgs on it and I've completely stopped enjoying the class since Elswyer already which was when they took away Major Fracture and Defile in a freaking heavy armor tank and healing meta while having a useless Silence on my Incap. Wasn't enough, lets nerf the class even more (Grim Focus) and give Incap a cast time because yolo.
Can now play with Dizzy Swing, does more damage than Surprise Attack (it's even better than Surprise Attack if I attack with it out of CLOAK LOL) and allows me to hit my Incap because knock back.
Good that I cancelled my sub with Classic being out and not planning on coming back lol, I highly doubt that they give stamnb anything good next patch (while giving temp, dk and sorc more identity according to their leaks...). Even Aim Hero is more fun than playing this joke of pvp...I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.3 -
Thanatos_inside✭✭✭Even on breaker cast time feels not so bad as on incap couse the breaker is aoe ability (cant be dodge). Everyone just dodge my incap. Nb feels like joke now.0 -
TheRealSniker✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thanatos_inside wrote: »Even on breaker cast time feels not so bad as on incap couse the breaker is aoe ability (cant be dodge). Everyone just dodge my incap. Nb feels like joke now.
Thats something I mentioned already :P0 -
Heatnix90✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cast times were a terrible idea from the get-go for a game that is known for having some of the most fluid combat around when performance isn't in the gutter.
Honestly, they need to go.3 -
chrightt✭✭✭✭Basically you want nightblades to get back cheese kills cause cloak is not OP enough for you to delete your opponent before they can do anything?!?!?!?! Slot concealed weapon, wait for next patch and their "class identity", incap => spectral bow/assassin's will from stealth.6 -
ShellaSunshine✭✭✭I'd rather Zenimax fix the lag issues in Cyrodiil than fix the cast times.
It's gotten so bad in Cyro that sometimes my character gets glued to the ground and I cannot move, attack, or use abilities.
Then I crash.
Cyrodiil lag is a much bigger issue that needs to be addressed. Sorry but cast times don't bother me as much as lag.1 -
Hyzock✭✭✭ShellaSunshine wrote: »I'd rather Zenimax fix the lag issues in Cyrodiil than fix the cast times.
It's gotten so bad in Cyro that sometimes my character gets glued to the ground and I cannot move, attack, or use abilities.
Then I crash.
Cyrodiil lag is a much bigger issue that needs to be addressed. Sorry but cast times don't bother me as much as lag.
How about both at the same time? I doubt the devs reponsible for performance improvements and the devs responsible for combat updates are even in the same team.PC EU - Frank the Potato - Stam DK1 -
Trandaner✭✭✭Basically you want nightblades to get back cheese kills cause cloak is not OP enough for you to delete your opponent before they can do anything?!?!?!?! Slot concealed weapon, wait for next patch and their "class identity", incap => spectral bow/assassin's will from stealth.
It seems like you think Nightblades are op at the moment, well then let me tell you, cloak is no way near being op, it's pretty much countered by everything. Also you mentioned "cheese kills" every dizzying swing onslaught combo is much more cheese than the typical Nightblade combos. You also said slot concealed weapon, there I can only say nobody uses that skill as it is just bad, simple as that, but I assume you are referring to the stamina morph surprise attack, if so that you don't have enough understanding of the game mechanics as already multiple times mentioned dizzying swing is just the far better option. So I don't really see how Nightblades are op, so please go further into detail.3 -
Xirks✭✭✭A cast time on INCAP, seriously ZOS? A nb is a ROGUE class. If you know nothing, which the way you terrible game is going it seems that you either don't know anything or you are just lazy.. NB is supposed to be quick in and out kills, NOT CAST TIMED ABILITIES.Former STAMINA NB DPS
Now just a 1hp wet noodle wielding failed and outdated class that still gets nerfed at every patch1 -
Crunkanaut✭✭✭Shield cast time got chanced because IT WAS NOT FLUID FOR THE FIGHTING STYLE
Then reverse castimes on MELEE ULTS too!
@ZOS_GinaBruno2 -
chris211✭✭✭✭I hate nightblade as a class but i agree with you class is garbage it does nothing but empower bad players0 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭Great post; objectively highlights the main pain points with cast times and why they are so frowned upon by good players and the endgame community. They promote an environment where you are actually rewarded for being worse at the game, which makes no plausible sense.
I will not be shocked to see 99% of the forums come here to bash and say “L2P” without providing any form of concise claim or argument; they do it with every forum post that has a chance of making the game harder for them, them being casuals.
In reality, EVERY good player understands how much of a detriment cast times are. If you fail to see it, well, we know what kind of player you are.Edited by SenpaiNFT on September 1, 2019 4:01PM2 -
TheRealSniker✭✭✭✭✭
✭Great post; objectively highlights the main pain points with cast times and why they are so frowned upon by good players and the endgame community. They promote an environment where you are actually rewarded for being worse at the game, which makes no plausible sense.
I will not be shocked to see 99% of the forums come here to bash and say “L2P” without providing any form of concise claim or argument; they do it with every forum post that has a chance of making the game harder for them, them being casuals.
In reality, EVERY good player understands how much of a detriment cast times are. If you fail to see it, well, we know what kind of player you are.
Thats a great TL;DR of what I said, but it doesn't only stop there.
The class as a whole and any other stamina spec that uses any of those 3 ults is instantly much slower and every combo is much harder to land, these specs get immediately outclassed by any magPlar, magDK and even magSorc who are allowed to play the game at a much faster pace and perform defensive mechanics while casting offensive abilities
Not only can these specs dodge roll your main burst abilities, they can dodge roll while performing their own offensive abilities even ults
Edited by TheRealSniker on September 1, 2019 4:14PM0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭im sory i disagree with you Sniker and the reason is because it now requires perfect timing and aditional skill to execute and use in my kills.
im a Big fan of the changes and thats why.
these changes are perfect in my opinion. just being honest.
you and your friends might not like the changes but me and my friends DO like and Love these changes.
Edited by Gilvoth on September 1, 2019 4:22PM1 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I do not like at ALL the cast times when playing my magblade on my Soul Harvest and Soul Siphon (when healing) up to the point i do not even use Soul Harvest anymore other than maybe because of the passive from slotting it. Because against most good enemies, cannot hit with it reliably plain and simple.
And Soul Siphon cast time + Cyro lag and need for the heal QUICK = things have went bad because of that now too many times.
So.. i WANT to use SH for many reasons obviously, but.. have to use Meteor+Fear instead.
Ending up playing my necro instead, even with its buggy Blastbones it feels less frustrating to play right now.
<sadpepe_omegalul_audit.gif> I wish there was an actual gif like that in a loop.
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TheRealSniker✭✭✭✭✭
✭im sory i disagree with you Sniker and the reason is because it now requires perfect timing and aditional skill to execute and use in my kills.
im a Big fan of the changes and thats why.
these changes are perfect in my opinion. just being honest.
you and your friends might not like the changes but me and my friends DO like and Love these changes.
Besides that perfect timing has nothing to do with how easy it is so avoid all of Nightblades burst abilities or even a whole combo on which the entire class is based on.
Youre simply wrong and try to turn a blind eye on a change that hurts the class and the pvp experience as a whole.
And the reason for it is that you dont want to progress and learn how to play properly.
Edited by TheRealSniker on September 1, 2019 4:25PM3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's worth to mention why builds with dizzying swing have now way better time with cast time ultimates. OP states that this is mainly because of dizzying swing knockback but he doesnt explain seconds reason. That reason are global cooldowns.
Assuming global cooldown for abilities is ~0,9 sec Your global cooldown for dizzying swing starts when You start casting it so basically when You hit enemy with dizzying Your global cooldown finishes at the same moment so now You just need that 0,4-0,5 sec to land cast time ultimate.
However when You use instant cast time ability into cast time ultimate then You 1st need to wait full 0,9 sec global cooldown to be able to start casting ultimate and then You need that 0,4-0,5 sec for that ultimate to land. That basically creates 1,3-1,4 second time space between hits.
So basically dizzying into cast time ulti hits ~0,9 second faster then some instant cast ability into cast time ulti which allows to pack more damage in shorter amount of time.Edited by Juhasow on September 1, 2019 4:42PM2 -
nosecookie✭✭✭Cast times removed the action packed from action packed combat in eso for me. Everything just feels so clunky and slow now.
I can get behind the thought that cast times give casual players like Kadoin more time to react but nonetheless there will always be a skillgap between the casuals and the skilled players. Now the game is just much less enjoyable for the latter.0 -
TheRealSniker✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's worth to mention why builds with dizzying swing have now way better time with cast time ultimates. OP states that this is mainly because of dizzying swing knockback but he doesnt explain seconds reason. That reason are global cooldowns.
Assuming global cooldown for abilities is ~0,9 sec Your global cooldown for dizzying swing starts when You start casting it so basically when You hit enemy with dizzying Your global cooldown finishes at the same moment so now You just need that 0,4-0,5 sec to land cast time ultimate.
However when You use instant cast time ability into cast time ultimate then You 1st need to wait full 0,9 sec global cooldown to be able to start casting ultimate and then You need that 0,4-0,5 sec for that ultimate to land. That basically creates 1,3-1,4 second time space between hits.
So basically dizzying into cast time ulti hits ~0,9 second faster then some instant cast ability into cast time ulti which allows to pack more damage in shorter amount of time.
I never looked too deep into how cast times in ESO work but this is quite interesting as well!0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cast time on soul siphon is like wut?! Try putting cast time on resto ulti. It makes it completely useless as emergency heal.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
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veil_✭✭✭Remember when cast times on shields was a thing?
Then why are cast times on ults a thing?
Consistency please3
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