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Echoing Vigor gets worse the more you level it
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MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭God, I wish this surprised me."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In the new skill audit, skills nerf themselves.
Honestly, this is probably just a tooltip error. If I had to guess, they forgot to have the tooltip actually take into account the extra tick you'd get from the increased time (assuming the time increased enough for an extra tick), so it's just displaying a flat value.
It's completely possible it's as the tooltip says, but this was the first thing that came to mind for me.
It's not an error. You trade single target HoT with a high tool tip for a multi-target HoT with a lowered tool tip. That's standardized and helps combat zergs.
Another amazing insight LMAO.2 -
Tolino✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »Duration goes up, but the heal stays the same, meaning the HPS is getting worse with every additional level.
Don't they have QA actually testing their software?
My Tooltipe was 20% higher on max. Lvl.... :l
But this Skill is a bad Joke anyway
Edited by Tolino on August 21, 2019 10:23AMMagsorc: Tôlino (Wardless)
Magden: Wa-Uller
Stamsorc: Tolino Sturmfalke4 -
nafensoriel✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »Duration goes up, but the heal stays the same, meaning the HPS is getting worse with every additional level.
Don't they have QA actually testing their software?
It's designed that way. Echoing focus is the duration. Levels increase duration. Echoing is not about increasing healing. Fire it once and then get 10 seconds to do everything else.
Resolving vigour is entirely about healing per second. Its cost is you have to tap that button every 4 seconds when under pressure. Do you keep vigor on your front bar? Probably not. This means you have to bar swap before you can complete a combo in most cases when under pressure.
If both increased healing.... you have a choice between healing(10s) and healing(4s). Which would you choose in this situation? The design forces a pro/con choice. Deal with it.0 -
DjMuscleboy02✭✭✭✭✭yeah big brain timeBrodor - PC NA - ESO's only pure bodybuilding guild
Hodor, but stronger1 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »Duration goes up, but the heal stays the same, meaning the HPS is getting worse with every additional level.
Don't they have QA actually testing their software?
It's designed that way. Echoing focus is the duration. Levels increase duration. Echoing is not about increasing healing. Fire it once and then get 10 seconds to do everything else.
Resolving vigour is entirely about healing per second. Its cost is you have to tap that button every 4 seconds when under pressure. Do you keep vigor on your front bar? Probably not. This means you have to bar swap before you can complete a combo in most cases when under pressure.
If both increased healing.... you have a choice between healing(10s) and healing(4s). Which would you choose in this situation? The design forces a pro/con choice. Deal with it.
Your analysis is completely wrong.
You also missed the glaring error in the tooltip for Echoing Vigor, which suggests Echoing Vigor may not function correctly.
I'll lead you from the beginning:
1) Vigor is a HoT
2) One morph is a solo heal. The other is an AoE heal
3) The solo heal has a larger heal value because it is solo.
4) The AoE heal has a smaller heal value because it may heal multiple targets.
This is the point where your analysis goes off the rails. The 'focus' of Echoing Vigor is not duration. It is a multiple-target heal. That is the characteristic that separates it from Resolving.
The difference in durations between the two morphs is not to 'give you 10 seconds to do something else'. The difference in durations regulates the size of the healing ticks.
5) The AoE HoT morph delivers the heal value in smaller increments
6) The Solo HoT morph delivers the heal value in larger increments
7) Ranking up the AoE HoT delivers additional heal ticks for increased total heal value by increasing duration
The decision between the two morphs has nothing to do barswapping, frontbar, backbar, or any of that sort of nonsense. If you want to heal just yourself, Resolving gives you a powerful HoT. If you want to heal your group, Echoing is the choice.
The issue is the tooltip for Echoing should show increasing total HoT output for ranking up to reflect the benefit of duration.
As it stands now, the tooltip states the player is punished for ranking up Echoing Vigor.
So, quite contrary to nearly everything you posted, the tooltip does not reflect the correct levelling of Echoing Vigor, nor does duration have anything to do with bar placement of the skill.
You're welcome
Edited by therift on August 21, 2019 1:57PM14 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Maybe it should have a fixed duration. If leveling is going to 'improve' something then maybe the radius or heal per tick.0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it's meant to be that way, the ticks stay the same during the levelling but the time increases and you get an extra tick, it's not meant to be about the hps but the duration and cost effectiveness, don't forget that you can stack the healing also. Who knows though ZOS probably *** it up which is more likely.#MOREORBS0 -
Berserkerkitten✭✭✭✭I said something stupid and now I can't delete my stupid comment, because deleting isn't a thing on here. Yay!Edited by Berserkerkitten on August 21, 2019 3:10PMNobody cares about your endless list of terribly-named characters.0 -
nafensoriel✭✭✭✭✭/snip
Disagree. One is for group play and is a duration cast yes. Resolving is more personal cast yes. It doesn't change the truism that one is for reaction heals and one is for cast and forget heals.
Solo players still don't care about the AOE nature. They care about duration and how it fits in with their ability to combo or evade.
Group players will either care about burst healing(healer getting ressed type thing) or duration healing the ball.
You are also oblivious to how and why a 4 second in combat heal might be a "bad" idea to have on your back bar and the obvious cost trade-offs to NOT having a superior offensive ability on your front bar. If you get hit by 2 guys on a resource node you don't often get to bar swap every 4 seconds.. then it becomes a real choice in how your skills are laid out. A 10 second smaller heal on your back bar with LOS treatment is superior to a 4-second "solo" heal that doesn't let you actually kill one of them. Yes, bar position matters. It even matters in PVE.
So bluntly yes you are correct one has an AOE and one doesn't. It doesn't change the mechanics that one is for burst and one is duration either. On multiple levels, it's a choice like most things in ESO.
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therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »
<snip>
You and I must have completely different play styles.
Outside of a ball groups, there are no conditions in PvP in which I would slot a HoT that heals for 340HP per sec over one that heals for 1,220. None. That's what Lingering Health potions are for, unless you're running a recovery build, and maybe not even then. Bar space is too precious, imo, to slot something that is far too weak to counter the burst style of play common in PvP.
Now, it may be that the difference in play styles makes this work for you.But I think instead you have convinced yourself that running a weak HoT is deep strategy and that you have uncovered some secret wisdom.
Math doesn't lie. 1,220 HP/sec is nearly four times greater 340 HP/sec. Resolving Vigor costs the same as Echoing... so you're paying a fortune in Stam costs to gimp yourself with that weak HoT. It doesn't matter that Echoing runs for ten seconds instead of four. You're getting so little healing back per tick with Echoing that you're either hiding behind obstacles LoS-ing for ten seconds... or you're dead from your opponent's second burst combo.
I run a typical buff back bar and offensive front bar... but my first priority defensively is to avoid getting hit. This means block, dodge, and roll. If I take a hit, it's bar swap to buff and burst heal, then back on the offensive freshly buffed and healed. Where I fight, I rarely have a rock or tower or shrubbery to hid in.
So, no, I don't want to slot a weak HoT over my burst HoT in PvP. PvE, sure. But not against burst attacks.
I appreciate your attempt to justify running Echoing but the math and PvP gameplay just doesn't make it viable.
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Lauranae✭✭✭✭✭
Well must depend of your settings i guess. I decided to boost it with CP and put 10 pts on blessed. So far i like the healing, can save me and people around in numerous situation
My most recent charactersAD - Chjara NB-0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
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Well must depend of your settings i guess. I decided to boost it with CP and put 10 pts on blessed. So far i like the healing, can save me and people around in numerous situation
I think maybe that's the point of it. One is a dps/tank/pvp centric self heal, the other is intended for healers. Kind of like the latest ruination of power surge. Hence the extended range, ie more targets per tick, fixed value so it isn't zerg powered Immortality.0 -
nafensoriel✭✭✭✭✭
I'd rather have 340hps that I know is going to be there for 10 seconds vs a 4 second 1220hps heal I might not be able to bar swap to in time(I'm 3000+km from server). Odd that the duration heal is 2.5 times as long as the burst heal and the heal factor is 3.5... Almost seems like it was intended that way in the manner suggested. Just because you might not have a playstyle that supports one over the other does not change the mechanics. Both GROUP/SOLO are true. Both burst/duration are true./snip
For me personally, with the lag in AVA, I find the 10s keeps me out of execute more than the 4s. YMMV. Being able to roll into a couple of potatoes and keep them alive(occasionally) is just a bonus.
The cool thing though is it doesn't matter much
. We can both do us and it really doesn't matter much now does it?
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Arkangeloski✭✭✭✭Berserkerkitten wrote: »I said something stupid and now I can't delete my stupid comment, because deleting isn't a thing on here. Yay!
Edit lol, or just leave a period or emoji.0 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »
I'd rather have 340hps that I know is going to be there for 10 seconds vs a 4 second 1220hps heal I might not be able to bar swap to in time(I'm 3000+km from server). Odd that the duration heal is 2.5 times as long as the burst heal and the heal factor is 3.5... Almost seems like it was intended that way in the manner suggested. Just because you might not have a playstyle that supports one over the other does not change the mechanics. Both GROUP/SOLO are true. Both burst/duration are true./snip
For me personally, with the lag in AVA, I find the 10s keeps me out of execute more than the 4s. YMMV. Being able to roll into a couple of potatoes and keep them alive(occasionally) is just a bonus.
The cool thing though is it doesn't matter much. We can both do us and it really doesn't matter much now does it?
@nafensoriel
The tooltip version posted by Lauranae pretty much trashes my math and argument, lol
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SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since so many people are completely missing the point, let's try to clear things up.
Below is Echoing Vigor at level III and level IV.
Note that the duration has changed (increased from 9.3 to 10) but the total amount of heal has *NOT* (6795).
Meaning, you get *LESS* healing per second with the higher level EV.
Edited by SirAndy on August 21, 2019 6:46PM9 -
Lauranae✭✭✭✭✭i dont understand something here.
If we were in a world without CP, then i would agree this would be hard on us, but it would be the same with everything and we would have to rethink our defense, attack etc
For now, we have CP (not in bg ok) and i think you all use them to boost your defense, or your attack.
You can boost your crit, your direct damage, and your heals with CP
I am not in maths, so i may be totally out of the problem, but so far, if i use CP to boost something i want, why dont you boost healing with CP ?My most recent charactersAD - Chjara NB-0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The way they write it in the patch notes makes it sound from 1 - 3 is the same duration in terms of healing ticks, only at rank 4 you will get the final tick. Don't forget that vigor ticks every 2 seconds now. And again, it's more cost efficient which is the point. If you want the stronger heal one, Resolving Vigor is designed for that, people are missing the point of what Echoing Vigor is meant to doSince so many people are completely missing the point, let's try to clear things up.
Below is Echoing Vigor at level III and level IV.
Note that the duration has changed (increased from 9.3 to 10) but the total amount of heal has *NOT* (6795).
Meaning, you get *LESS* healing per second with the higher level EV.Echoing Vigor (morph): This morph no longer ranks up in healing per rank, but instead increases in duration. This will result in one extra tick of healing at Rank IV (10 seconds at Rank IV).Edited by Nifty2g on August 21, 2019 7:23PM#MOREORBS1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭i dont understand something here.
If we were in a world without CP, then i would agree this would be hard on us, but it would be the same with everything and we would have to rethink our defense, attack etc
For now, we have CP (not in bg ok) and i think you all use them to boost your defense, or your attack.
You can boost your crit, your direct damage, and your heals with CP
I am not in maths, so i may be totally out of the problem, but so far, if i use CP to boost something i want, why dont you boost healing with CP ?
Yes, you appear to not understand something.
That something is the whole point.
The whole point being that leveling Echoing Vigor does nothing but decrease the potency of the heal.
Just using made-up tooltip values ...
Echoing Vigor rank 1: 8,000 healing over 8 seconds (every 2 seconds)
Echoing Vigor rank 4: 8,000 healing over 10 seconds (every 2 seconds)
So at rank 1, you get a 2k healing tick every 2 seconds (4 ticks), or 1k HPS.
At rank 4, you get a 1.6k healing tick every 2 seconds (5 ticks), or 800 HPS.
Now reading the patch notes, it does seem like this was *may* have been intended (although it doesn't really jive with the standards of other DoTs/HoTs, where an additional tick manes you get *more* total damage/healing). But it is incredibly and unsurprisingly stupid.Edited by LiquidPony on August 21, 2019 7:30PM8 -
Fallen_Ray✭✭✭✭✭Wow! LOL! ZO$ reaallly defecated their guts all over this game with this update."Dear brother, I do not spread rumors, I create them"- Lucien Lachance3 -
oddbasket✭✭✭✭✭
✭Got it to rank 4 and the healing did increase, 1-3 only duration increased. So I guess you only get the extra tick when you actually get the full 2s duration.1 -
Vandril✭✭✭✭Got it to rank 4 and the healing did increase, 1-3 only duration increased. So I guess you only get the extra tick when you actually get the full 2s duration.
And there it is. If your healing on the tooltip once you reached Rank IV increased after all, then it looks like it's working fine.
Judging by this quote, it is indeed just a tooltip error that only shows itself on the preview tooltip for when you're at Rank III looking at the tooltip of the upcoming Rank IV.1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That is all well and good on digital paper, but the in-game tooltip doesn't cooperate with the patch notes.
The way they write it in the patch notes makes it sound from 1 - 3 is the same duration in terms of healing ticks, only at rank 4 you will get the final tick. Don't forget that vigor ticks every 2 seconds now. And again, it's more cost efficient which is the point. If you want the stronger heal one, Resolving Vigor is designed for that, people are missing the point of what Echoing Vigor is meant to doSince so many people are completely missing the point, let's try to clear things up.
Below is Echoing Vigor at level III and level IV.
Note that the duration has changed (increased from 9.3 to 10) but the total amount of heal has *NOT* (6795).
Meaning, you get *LESS* healing per second with the higher level EV.Echoing Vigor (morph): This morph no longer ranks up in healing per rank, but instead increases in duration. This will result in one extra tick of healing at Rank IV (10 seconds at Rank IV).
Hence the calls for this being bugged ...
Edited by SirAndy on August 22, 2019 2:20AM1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
That is all well and good on digital paper, but the in-game tooltip doesn't cooperate with the patch notes.
The way they write it in the patch notes makes it sound from 1 - 3 is the same duration in terms of healing ticks, only at rank 4 you will get the final tick. Don't forget that vigor ticks every 2 seconds now. And again, it's more cost efficient which is the point. If you want the stronger heal one, Resolving Vigor is designed for that, people are missing the point of what Echoing Vigor is meant to doSince so many people are completely missing the point, let's try to clear things up.
Below is Echoing Vigor at level III and level IV.
Note that the duration has changed (increased from 9.3 to 10) but the total amount of heal has *NOT* (6795).
Meaning, you get *LESS* healing per second with the higher level EV.Echoing Vigor (morph): This morph no longer ranks up in healing per rank, but instead increases in duration. This will result in one extra tick of healing at Rank IV (10 seconds at Rank IV).
Hence the calls for this being bugged ...
Bug raised?0 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭
That is all well and good on digital paper, but the in-game tooltip doesn't cooperate with the patch notes.
The way they write it in the patch notes makes it sound from 1 - 3 is the same duration in terms of healing ticks, only at rank 4 you will get the final tick. Don't forget that vigor ticks every 2 seconds now. And again, it's more cost efficient which is the point. If you want the stronger heal one, Resolving Vigor is designed for that, people are missing the point of what Echoing Vigor is meant to doSince so many people are completely missing the point, let's try to clear things up.
Below is Echoing Vigor at level III and level IV.
Note that the duration has changed (increased from 9.3 to 10) but the total amount of heal has *NOT* (6795).
Meaning, you get *LESS* healing per second with the higher level EV.Echoing Vigor (morph): This morph no longer ranks up in healing per rank, but instead increases in duration. This will result in one extra tick of healing at Rank IV (10 seconds at Rank IV).
Hence the calls for this being bugged ...
Bug raised?
The bug was raised by creating this thread, and judging by 5.1.7 it's either- No bug = working as intended
- A bug, but not important enough to fix it now and thus got put back somewhere in their massive backlog
- Undefined, as QA couldn't be bothered to check it
Either way: you're shown as someone who reported a bug that they don't actually care at all, because if they would care they'd let you know in some way or another about how they judged your findings.Edited by daedalusAI on August 24, 2019 5:20AM0 -
Psiion✭✭✭✭Greetings,
Seeing as this thread is quite old and may contain outdated information, we have gone ahead and closed it down. If anyone would like to continue discussion on this subject, please feel free to create a new, up to date thread.0
This discussion has been closed.