How to Balance PvE & PvP

Purpaleslushii · August 2019

Iv'e noticed and have heard from the community a lot of different issues lately with PvE that stems from the changes that Zenimax makes to try to balance PvP and vice versa. To be honest this game is very unbalanced and the main reason in my opinion is the fact that you cannot balance PvP without affecting PvE and cannot balance PvE without affecting PvP. My solution might take a while to implement but seems like a very straight to the point fix and something that will make things easier for everyone. So why not just make four morphs for each move in the game. Two morphs per move for PvE and two morphs per move for PvP. Only allow PvE morphs to be used in PvE and only allow PvP moves to be used in PvP. For instance if you were to have PvE morphs on your bar in PvP the skills would just be grayed out and not be able to be used. This way Zenimax would have the freedom to make changes freely to how they feel the game needs to be balanced without affecting both aspects of PvP and PvE when only one aspect needs to be touched. Just an idea tho. I know it would take a while to implement but why not make the game better each patch instead of making it more and more unbalanced with every patch.

jcm2606 · August 2019

Or they could just target nerf troublesome mechanics/skills/sets through Battle Spirit, or when used against other players?

Is a skill dealing too much damage in PvP? Reduce the damage dealt against players by a certain %, and mention that in the tooltip.

Is a certain mechanic, ie crowd control, too strong in PvP? Reduce the effectiveness of a player's snares when Battle Spirit is applied.

It's already in the game, they already do this on some skills (Nightblade's Teleport Strike fully stuns PvE mobs, while just snaring players), so there's no reason why they can't further use it.

Xvorg · August 2019

I think they should implement the PvP and PvE set up. Whenever you are in your skills page, press a box to set the morphs as PvP wise or PvE wise. Same with attributes.

So the only thing you have to care for are sets.

VaranisArano · August 2019

ZOS could use Battle Spirit to impact PVP without changing PVE.

The Devs do, in fact, realize this, and choose not to in most cases.

Which indicates to me that the Devs know full well what the impact is on PVE, and that this impact is a feature, not a bug. ZOS is happy to keep changing up PVE gameplay (and, TBH, PVP gameplay too). Its a cheap way to keep the game from becoming stagnant that doesnt require designing loads of new content.

That's not to mention the powerful incentive ZOS has to not completely separate PVP from the rest of the game. Does anyone really think that ESO' PVP could compete on its own merit with other purely PVP games?

AcadianPaladin · August 2019

I agree that, for 5 years and counting, trying to balance PvE and PvP together continues to be an epic fail whose chief success is driving a wedge between the two communities.

Heavy armor, impen, CC, simply stepping out of ground AoE's (unlike PvE foes) . . . they are two different games and should be treated accordingly.

@jcm2606 's idea of putting Battle Spirit on steroids is a possibility. It carries the advantage of allowing the same character to move between PvE/PvP and might readily allow PvP/PvE specific/exclusive balance changes.

The OP's idea of differing morphs, I fear, is not radical enough to solve the problem. It would also require the very minor change of providing free unlimited morph changes so the same char could readily shift between PvE/PvP (massive gear changing notwithstanding).

My own view would be more extreme. Totally split PvE/PvP so all skills work differently as required. Drawback here is that it pretty much requires building characters that only play PvE or PvP - see, I think the game already does that because if I was serious about PvP, I would build a PvP only from the ground up character for that environment.

Narvuntien · August 2019

PVE wants damage over time and high crit chance and crit damage.

PVP wants Burst and High Damage (SD and WD) and crit resistance. Plus a combination of CC and defence and self-healing.

PVE and PVP want completely different things I don't understand why PVE and PVP players are always blaming the other for nerfs.

VaranisArano · August 2019

Narvuntien wrote: »

PVE wants damage over time and high crit chance and crit damage.

PVP wants Burst and High Damage (SD and WD) and crit resistance. Plus a combination of CC and defence and self-healing.

PVE and PVP want completely different things I don't understand why PVE and PVP players are always blaming the other for nerfs.

Its because PVP is competitive and PVE is generally cooperative. Outside of competing for trial slots, PVEers are usually okay with having strong skills, classes, and gear sets because it makes their content easier. PVPers are the ones who actually benefit from "balance".

wabajaa · August 2019

easiest way to sort it out is:
design one standardised set unit (10 pieces set) for each player in pvp environment. when player join in pvp, the system will change your items to that set and lock it. This set will come with 3 set bonus out of bonus pool. player can determine which 3 set bonus they want to choose. attibution and enchantment can be changed to whatever you want. no trait! but in addition, you will have a fourth pvp set bonus to give you xx amount of impren, well fit, etc. equally for every one.

Saril_Durzam · August 2019

Not as easier, but funnier:

Make class and general skills for PvP use. No PvE skill is allowed on PvP areas.

Way more customization, new ways of playing... would rock.

wabajaa · August 2019

or make the skill talent equipmemt same as skyrim. no argumemt, no balance issue, player decide what they need

Thanatos_inside · August 2019

Just rework Battle Spirit like ( less damage from proc sets in pvp) etc

Gahmerdohn · August 2019

There is a way simpler solution, for example:

"

"......Super cool Skill....." (Stamina morph)

Throw "...something flashy..." that does XXX physical damage and apply a bleed that does XXX in 15sec. This ability apply minor fracture for the duration of the bleed.
Cost of the skill : AAA stamina
_______________________________________________________________________

In PVP does YYY physical damage and apply a bleed that does YYY in 5 sec and applies minor fracture for the whole duration of the bleed. Reduce movement speed by 25% for 3 sec
Cost of the skill: BBB stamina

"

So when this skill is over performing in PvE they can tweak the details of the first part of this skill and if they want to adjust the PVP part they simply adjust that part.
Easy, simple, not a huge amount of time in programming (in comparison of all the time rebalancing the whole game for 5 years) ... They save headaches and money, we are happy and keep playing and buying mounts on the crown store everybody enjoys the relationship.

Schattenfluegel · August 2019

They should seperate PvP from PvE in the Charactersheets...otherwise it cant be balanced. A PvP Change always hit Pve and the other way, too.

Mr_Wolfe · August 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS could use Battle Spirit to impact PVP without changing PVE.

The Devs do, in fact, realize this, and choose not to in most cases.

Which indicates to me that the Devs know full well what the impact is on PVE, and that this impact is a feature, not a bug. ZOS is happy to keep changing up PVE gameplay (and, TBH, PVP gameplay too). Its a cheap way to keep the game from becoming stagnant that doesnt require designing loads of new content.

That's not to mention the powerful incentive ZOS has to not completely separate PVP from the rest of the game. Does anyone really think that ESO' PVP could compete on its own merit with other purely PVP games?

Constantly pulling the rug out from under PvE players gets pretty stagnant after a while too. Why should I bother trying to improve my build or shoot for those difficult achievements when ZOS is just going to nerf my characters into the ground and force me to start all over again before I can get there?

Narvuntien · August 2019

If you have to go level up new skills and farm new gear you are playing the game as opposed to maxing out all your characters and having nothing to do anymore.

Mr_Wolfe · August 2019

No, you're re-playing the same content for sets you threw away last time (or mats to replace the ones you wasted on your previous gear that no longer works) instead of doing anything new.

VaranisArano · August 2019

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS could use Battle Spirit to impact PVP without changing PVE.

The Devs do, in fact, realize this, and choose not to in most cases.

Which indicates to me that the Devs know full well what the impact is on PVE, and that this impact is a feature, not a bug. ZOS is happy to keep changing up PVE gameplay (and, TBH, PVP gameplay too). Its a cheap way to keep the game from becoming stagnant that doesnt require designing loads of new content.

That's not to mention the powerful incentive ZOS has to not completely separate PVP from the rest of the game. Does anyone really think that ESO' PVP could compete on its own merit with other purely PVP games?

Constantly pulling the rug out from under PvE players gets pretty stagnant after a while too. Why should I bother trying to improve my build or shoot for those difficult achievements when ZOS is just going to nerf my characters into the ground and force me to start all over again before I can get there?

Sure. Eventually it get stagnant, players get tired of it, and quit.

However, it drags out the process quite a bit, and in the meantime, ZOS makes money off of most of those players and keeps the server population high.

Think about it. How many updates did you think, "Man, I really don't want to change up my toons to match the changes" and then did it anyway? I know I did for a couple of updates.

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

No, you're re-playing the same content for sets you threw away last time (or mats to replace the ones you wasted on your previous gear that no longer works) instead of doing anything new.

Precisely. Its not a bad thing in ZOS' book to keep old content halfway relevant and keep players in game, grinding away a little bit longer.

All players get bored and leave eventually, but until players see the rat race for what it is and decide to quit chasing the meta, ZOS keeps a lot of them...if not interested, then at least busy, with the constant meta changes.

In terms of ekeing out gameplay time from players (and hopefully crown store purchases/subs), its not a bad business strategy.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma · August 2019

TO SHOW YOU HOW TO BALANCE PvE AND PvP...