Dubious balancing methodology used instead of Dynamic balancing = BLAND GAME now

Casterial · August 2019

When I was a balance specialist / combat designer I'd balance things based off of combat feel and data.

If it felt bad, but data said otherwise I'd explore why.
If it felt good, but data said its bad I'd explore.

If it was clearly amazing when using, but required skill and data said it was bad I'd know it was due for some change either good or bad.

ZOS I believe balances off of data more than feel (PVP wise), @ZOS_BrianWheeler may have more real insight on how this game is balanced. But I think they're doing a phenomenal job trying to change meta up now.

jircris11 · August 2019

The issue with A LOT of gamers now days is they have become sheep. Gone are they days of custome builds, now it's all about the meta and due to this meta train nerfs continue to happen. If people made builds that worked on their own instead of following a pre made build the devs would have more information on what needs buffed and or fixed. But instead all they get is EVERYONE is using xyz skills so they must be too strong. This insight is from the eyes of a player and a retired dev for another mmo.

mairwen85 · August 2019

Wow. We got a combat designer / balance specialist and retired mmo developer in the same thread.

It’s funny that what most people are complaining about is standardisation — and how that isn’t balance. In another thread we have someone moaning that rotations are boring because whatever order the skills, the result is the same, and the majority of skills are non-class abilities. So, let’s get this straight, the patch skill audit which standardised skills by type (damage over time) has resulted in all skills of a similar type doing more or less equal damage per tick? And that regardless of class... sounds like balance achieved through standardisation. This newly emerging level playing field will formulate the base line, what becomes of it next is anyone’s guess.

I’m not saying I like what we’ve been lumbered with, and no it isn’t fun; yes it is bland and boring — Just remember, you can’t demand something then protest when you get it. Ask the experts above me.

ATomiX69 · August 2019

hyperbalance != fun
especially in a non-competetive game like ESO

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2019

Most elder scrolls games were built on a "classless" system, while there were templates that reflected skill groupings, builds have in the past been free-form. Homogenizing classes is a step in this direction, making stealth more universal would also help.

One thing that might be interesting is being allowed to make a hybrid class, where you can choose one offensive skill line from one class and a different defensive and support skill line from other classes, along with the assorted passives. However before you allow something like that you need to bring the outliers in.

pattyLtd · August 2019

When I read the patch notes the percentages make me LOL.
Increased x with 220%
Decreased y with 98%

And many many in the 30% region did they real do such a miserable job before that those numbers make sense.
I dont think so, making it easier for new players is an understandable approach but the new players coming in will decline and many will leave just as quickly again.

They are doing a good job blowing eso into oblivion with these insane massive changes all the time.
Also would think eso isnt in a state to make big chances for visions or other crap.

They should be all hands on deck trying to fix performance because it truelly is unacceptable how bad this game runs.
ZoS feels like a company that got lucky getting their hands on the massive IP for the Elder Scrolls, they did a great job with it initialy too but they seem in over their heads really.

I’ll adapt sure it’s not like we have a choice but FUN should be prio number 1 and they are killing it.

Taloros · August 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

It’s funny that what most people are complaining about is standardisation — and how that isn’t balance. In another thread we have someone moaning that rotations are boring because whatever order the skills, the result is the same, and the majority of skills are non-class abilities. So, let’s get this straight, the patch skill audit which standardised skills by type (damage over time) has resulted in all skills of a similar type doing more or less equal damage per tick? And that regardless of class... sounds like balance achieved through standardisation.

When people here said that balancing isn't homogenization, they probably didn't want to say that homogenization cannot be used to create balance, but that it shouldn't be used.

People require different sized clothing. One can tackle that problem by either giving everybody super stretchy leggings and a dress*, or one can offer clothing in different sizes. The latter is more demanding, some people will never find the right size, but overall, this approach leads to less awful results.

Same goes for class balancing. In pen and paper RPGs, Dungeons and Dragons, 4th edition had the same problem. The designers tried to balance e. g. fighters, rogues and wizards. So, fighter got a sword strike ability, rogues a dagger stab ability, wizards a fire touch ability, all doing the same damage. Balance? Yes. Flavor? No.

The same is happening to ESO. Giving everybody the same super-powerful DoTs is, uhm, balanced, yes. But it removes identy from classes. The Dragonknight was, if played as a DD, a melee DoT class using either poison (stamina) or fire damage (magicka). The Sorc was a ranged damage dealer with pets and direct attacks (magicka) or semi-useless potatoe (stamina). That made stamina sorcs complain (disclaimer: I have a stamina Sorc, too).

Then comes the balancing hammer:

Everybody is given super-strong general abilities, and now everybody is a ranged DoT class. Everybody does untyped damage (physical/magic). Balance? Yes. Fun? No.

---

One can see a weird connection to societal concepts, I think. The problem resembles the conflict of individualism versus collectivism. I don't want to praise individualism too much, but one has to acknowledge that it's "flavor of the century" so far, and probably has a lot going for it. I find it weird that ZOS - a company based in the USA, champion of capitalism and individualism - is taking the collectivist approach here. But I'm probably overthinking it.

---

*The word filter filters this out... https://tinyurl.com/kcas3dz
O tempore, o mores.

mairwen85 · August 2019

Taloros wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

It’s funny that what most people are complaining about is standardisation — and how that isn’t balance. In another thread we have someone moaning that rotations are boring because whatever order the skills, the result is the same, and the majority of skills are non-class abilities. So, let’s get this straight, the patch skill audit which standardised skills by type (damage over time) has resulted in all skills of a similar type doing more or less equal damage per tick? And that regardless of class... sounds like balance achieved through standardisation.

When people here said that balancing isn't homogenization, they probably didn't want to say that homogenization cannot be used to create balance, but that it shouldn't be used.

People require different sized clothing. One can tackle that problem by either giving everybody super stretchy leggings and a ***, or one can offer clothing in different sizes. The latter is more demanding, some people will never find the right size, but overall, this approach leads to less awful results.

Same goes for class balancing. In pen and paper RPGs, Dungeons and Dragons, 4th edition had the same problem. The designers tried to balance e. g. fighters, rogues and wizards. So, fighter got a sword strike ability, rogues a dagger stab ability, wizards a fire touch ability, all doing the same damage. Balance? Yes. Flavor? No.

The same is happening to ESO. Giving everybody the same super-powerful DoTs is, uhm, balanced, yes. But it removes identy from classes. The Dragonknight was, if played as a DD, a melee DoT class using either poison (stamina) or fire damage (magicka). The Sorc was a ranged damage dealer with pets and direct attacks (magicka) or semi-useless potatoe (stamina). That made stamina sorcs complain (disclaimer: I have a stamina Sorc, too).

Then comes the balancing hammer:

Everybody is given super-strong general abilities, and now everybody is a ranged DoT class. Balance? Yes. Fun? No.

---

One can see a weird connection to societal concepts, I think. The problem resembles the conflict of individualism versus collectivism. I don't want to praise individualism too much, but one has to acknowledge that it's "flavor of the century" so far, and probably has a lot going for it. I find it weird that ZOS - a company based in the USA, champion of capitalism and individualism - is taking the collectivist approach here. But I'm probably overthinking it.

I’m not disagreeing with that stance. I get where the argument stems from. I’m just saying that this is clearly the direction they’re going in now. We either accept it, or move on.

Dynamic classes and unique identity will just bring us full circle with king of the hill patches because we can build beyond class. Precisely the freedom we have creates self imposed constraints that result in over powered states.

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Most elder scrolls games were built on a "classless" system, while there were templates that reflected skill groupings, builds have in the past been free-form. Homogenizing classes is a step in this direction, making stealth more universal would also help.

One thing that might be interesting is being allowed to make a hybrid class, where you can choose one offensive skill line from one class and a different defensive and support skill line from other classes, along with the assorted passives. However before you allow something like that you need to bring the outliers in.

Then we’d just end up with a supreme meta meta.

Taloros · August 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

I’m not disagreeing with that stance. I get where the argument stems from. I’m just saying that this is clearly the direction they’re going in now. We either accept it, or move on.

"Move on" as in "leave", yes.

Sad thing, though. Game was fun for a while.

mairwen85 · August 2019

Taloros wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I’m not disagreeing with that stance. I get where the argument stems from. I’m just saying that this is clearly the direction they’re going in now. We either accept it, or move on.

"Move on" as in "leave", yes.

Sad thing, though. Game was fun for a while.

RinaldoGandolphi · August 2019

Fixing the game would be very easy for ZOS.

1. Remove the 50% damage reduction, healing reduction, and shield reduction from battle spirit and change the 5000 extra HP to 7500.

2. Revert base class and weapon skills back to their 1.6 functionality.

3. Audit skills to have different effects if they are used on a player or a mob. We already have examples of this with Negate for example that stuns mobs but not players. This will allow them to create dynamic distinct experiences and making balance easier since pvp focused changes won’t effect pve and vice versa because skills will work in specific ways depending if they are used against a player or a mob.

4. institute hard caps into battle spirit that prevent people from stacking resist, damage, stats, etc beyond a certain point. A good starting point would be 37k mag, 37k stam, 4K spell damage and 4.5k weapon damage(since mag has higher levels of penetration in most cases), and 40k health. Resist capped at 27k spell and physical, and crit resist capped at 3.2k.

4 also encourages hybrid builds in pvp since you will be encouraged to invest in other areas of your character. You will see stam sorcs using Mages Wrath, Stam DKs using Standard of Might, magplars using Power of the Light, etc because they will be encouraged to invest in enough off stat to make those skills viable.

All the 50% damage reduction and such on battle spirit has done is encourage a tanky meta that persists patch after patch after patch. Just change how the skills work based on context a remove that 50% damage reduction that wasn’t the problem in the 1st place bonus stealth damage is/was.

Just my 2 cents

glavius · August 2019

Sometimes an employee needs to show his bosses what he accomplished. If he doesnt know how to improve stuff, it's probably better for him to make random changes /projects, to show why he is valuable to the company. If he makes no or only minor changes, he might loose his job.

I believe this is what happens with ESO.

Enkil · August 2019

jircris11 wrote: »

The issue with A LOT of gamers now days is they have become sheep. Gone are they days of custome builds, now it's all about the meta and due to this meta train nerfs continue to happen. If people made builds that worked on their own instead of following a pre made build the devs would have more information on what needs buffed and or fixed. But instead all they get is EVERYONE is using xyz skills so they must be too strong. This insight is from the eyes of a player and a retired dev for another mmo.

Yes this is a big problem, especially in ESO and creating these crazy "meta" swings and gyrations. I don't know where that development style and process originated, but it wasn't used and did not exist in any PvP game I've played prior to this. Was it a WoW thing? (never played that) I could be incorrect, but I believe that it is a PvE concept and characteristic that is typically used by min/maxers to compete at top levels in dungeons and trials.

If so, that is fine but it needs to be separated from PvP, via NPC-only skills/attributes. PvP is totally different and should encourage out of the box, unique builds that can compete against a variety of player builds and remain viable over time, not be undercut or outright castrated by each big patch.

Players spend countless hours grinding for guild skill lines and crafting gold gear sets for each character, so screwing us out of that time and significant resource investment on multiple characters every few months is outrageous.

Add to that, they are making guild skills almost essential to be competitive, while at the same exact time adding guild skill lines to to cash store for $30/character/skill line. This calls into question if the game should now be categorized as Pay-2-Win. They are certainly creeping over the line of demarcation with this patch.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Folks need to learn to adjust to the changes - the sky isn't falling, but yes, stamina is being sidelined for magicka - FINALLY after 2 years. Heavy Attack channeling builds while rotating through DoTs will be at their strongest in this patch. Newer, more inexperienced players and guilds can quickly get their feet wet in veteran trial content since DoT DPS is much easier to obtain - this is the biggest reason why Scalebreaker is great patch.

I agree completely. A lot of the long winded complaints about this patch are ridiculous. Since when has PvE DPS *not* involved pressing buttons and watching timers?

The new meta is fine. It's really not much different from the old meta, and there have been plenty of improvements. Some people just don't react well to change.

I dont think the total argument is a evolved Meta and playstyle. the issue is they have homogoonized classes even more and really has perpetuated the one role DPS game style.
Adapting is not a huge issue the devaluing of roles is. its actually a deal breaker fro me. i have never had any intrest in playing dps in any MMO i always play tanks or utility. those roles are gettin less and less focus not in just scale breaker but as game design in general. the Director needs to go the game is a churniiing population on a level i have never seen before. Zos is more interested in gaining new customers to monitize ever game feature and screw retention of the ones who have already paid and played long term.

MadNomad1 · August 2019

Yeah, all the classes are even more similar now. There is not point making a new character because you only end up changing one or two skills. Hope they do something to change this boring "everything is the same" meta quickly because I will not be paying money for a game I no longer enjoy.

Commancho · August 2019

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Heavy Attack channeling builds while rotating through DoTs will be at their strongest in this patch. Newer, more inexperienced players and guilds can quickly get their feet wet in veteran trial content since DoT DPS is much easier to obtain - this is the biggest reason why Scalebreaker is great patch.

I have such a build and I have lost around 30% DPS comparing to pre-patch state.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2019

MadNomad1 wrote: »

Yeah, all the classes are even more similar now. There is not point making a new character because you only end up changing one or two skills. Hope they do something to change this boring "everything is the same" meta quickly because I will not be paying money for a game I no longer enjoy.

unfortunately i think this was by design.Zos is going for where the money is and that is new players.they can make more money of attracting one new player for 30 to 50 levels . making them pay for every little feature and BS cosmetic , game enhancing boost or basic common sense feature. Then they could of 50 already paid long term player. they are very clear in their direction and i wasted another 80 bucks on a broken class thinking this time would be different.

GrimTheReaper45 · August 2019

jircris11 wrote: »

The issue with A LOT of gamers now days is they have become sheep. Gone are they days of custome builds, now it's all about the meta and due to this meta train nerfs continue to happen. If people made builds that worked on their own instead of following a pre made build the devs would have more information on what needs buffed and or fixed. But instead all they get is EVERYONE is using xyz skills so they must be too strong. This insight is from the eyes of a player and a retired dev for another mmo.

Heres the thing though. We did have that. Players did do that. Eso had a very active theory crafting community approximetly 2-3 yrs ago. At least on the pvp side of combat. Problems are 1) alot of the skills that could make more unique and viable builds have been nerfed so much their not worth building around. Problem 2) is the game changes so much every patch. Making your own build and fine tuning it takes a while, at least a few patches. You have to play around with skills and sets and enchants. If your going to put the effort into those types of builds you want some use out of them and to be able to play them for a while. We dont get that with how often zos changes things.

As for the skills thing. We have a very mixed bag of skills. In almost all skill lines there are at least a few skills that even a new player would look at and tell you are trash. It gets even worse when you look at morphs. I dont care how much you nerf crystal frag, im still not using crystal blast unless you buff the hell outta it. Its just not a good or fun skill to use. We have a ton of skills like that but instead of buffs to useless things we get nerfs to everything good.

GrimTheReaper45 · August 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Wow. We got a combat designer / balance specialist and retired mmo developer in the same thread.

It’s funny that what most people are complaining about is standardisation — and how that isn’t balance. In another thread we have someone moaning that rotations are boring because whatever order the skills, the result is the same, and the majority of skills are non-class abilities. So, let’s get this straight, the patch skill audit which standardised skills by type (damage over time) has resulted in all skills of a similar type doing more or less equal damage per tick? And that regardless of class... sounds like balance achieved through standardisation. This newly emerging level playing field will formulate the base line, what becomes of it next is anyone’s guess.

I’m not saying I like what we’ve been lumbered with, and no it isn’t fun; yes it is bland and boring — Just remember, you can’t demand something then protest when you get it. Ask the experts above me.

There not really wrong though. It is lazy balancing. When we has we want balance we mean we want x class doing its unique thing to be as effective and y class doing its thing. We dont want dots to be the same or direct damage to be the same or sustain to be the same. We want the total package of what your doing to be about the same as other ways of doing it. If your healing on this set up this way we want it to be as effective with roughly the same effort as other healers on a different set up doing it a different way. Not every class has to be capable of everything either. Im ok with not being able to heal on a sorc. I want it to just do somethings its own way and have those results be relatively as effective as someone doing that role a different way.

kpittsniperb14_ESO · August 2019

Enkil wrote: »

I applaud the Dev team's efforts to try to balance skills, classes and such. However, it is extremely apparent that the dev teams have used a lowest common denominator, homogenizing, and over-standardizing philosophy and methodology.

A common misconception is that balancing means standardizing and making things more similar, level or even. However, this is not a spreadsheet simulator, it is an MMO-RPG with the best intellectual property a dev team could dream of and the purpose is fun.

Balancing efforts should be dynamic; increasing and emphasizing the unique attributes of various skills and classes. Keep what works and is fun, tweaking as needed. Changes should be made with finesse to fine tune where needed to achieve Overall Balance and ensure that it is maintained.

Other games have done this well with far less resources, so it is not beyond reason to expect that one of the biggest can also do at least a decent job with just 6 classes. This patch is horrendous and the philosophies behind it will keep diminishing the quality of the game even further if a more sophisticated approach is not adopted instead.

Gameplay feels more bland, even more unbalanced (DoTs on steroids being one example), and just more boring now.

I agree with you for the most part when looking at the current state of the game and balance. Up to this point, balance was done in a haphazard manner without a clear vision. Previous balancing was done without regard for global effects with huge nerfs or buffs resulting. Then you have the issues of CP/NON CP and PVE/PVP balance to account for. Over 5 years if this nonsense has left us in a state that things simply cannot be balanced without overhauling everything in a dramatic way to get us to a certain standard baseline and then things can be tweaked from there.

From what I understand, that is what the vision this new team has and hopefully they can pull it off. I hate this patch, everything is dumbed down, homogenized and bland but I'm thinking this is a temporary and necessary step towards a better balanced game down the line once the standardization is finished. I'm usually not one to defend ZOS, but I think I see what they are trying to accomplish in the long term......or I could be very naïve. Time will tell.

Taloros · August 2019

It's possible that the current state is just a step on the path to greatness. But possibly it isn't, either.

That's what I don't understand about this affair: If there was a grand plan, why not tell us? The constant nerf-buffing of the very same abilities seems, at least to me, to be an indication that they do not have a plan, e. g. Caltrops (first buffed to high heaven, then nerfed into oblivion). If there is a method to the madness, I can't see it, and the devs aren't telling, either.
One way or the other, they're doing something very wrong: They are missing direction or missing to communicate this direction. If they did, one might suffer through a few bad months. Without it... well, there're a lot of other good games out there.

mairwen85 · August 2019

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Wow. We got a combat designer / balance specialist and retired mmo developer in the same thread.

It’s funny that what most people are complaining about is standardisation — and how that isn’t balance. In another thread we have someone moaning that rotations are boring because whatever order the skills, the result is the same, and the majority of skills are non-class abilities. So, let’s get this straight, the patch skill audit which standardised skills by type (damage over time) has resulted in all skills of a similar type doing more or less equal damage per tick? And that regardless of class... sounds like balance achieved through standardisation. This newly emerging level playing field will formulate the base line, what becomes of it next is anyone’s guess.

I’m not saying I like what we’ve been lumbered with, and no it isn’t fun; yes it is bland and boring — Just remember, you can’t demand something then protest when you get it. Ask the experts above me.

There not really wrong though. It is lazy balancing. When we has we want balance we mean we want x class doing its unique thing to be as effective and y class doing its thing. We dont want dots to be the same or direct damage to be the same or sustain to be the same. We want the total package of what your doing to be about the same as other ways of doing it. If your healing on this set up this way we want it to be as effective with roughly the same effort as other healers on a different set up doing it a different way. Not every class has to be capable of everything either. Im ok with not being able to heal on a sorc. I want it to just do somethings its own way and have those results be relatively as effective as someone doing that role a different way.

No disagreement from me on wanting and hoping for that. The game was once upon a time heading toward that, and theory crafting in this game is still the deepest I have seen in many games... Something broke in their approach, something shifted in the community, and the design paradigm altered course - - the destination as yet unknown. But where we are is where we are and no amount of shoulda coulda woulda is going to change that. What we need as a community, and what zos should do, is offer transparency and share their vision for the future. We know about the ongoing skill audit, but what is the ultimate goal?

ESO_Nightingale · August 2019

Magdens are still waiting for key pain points to be fixed. A good stun skill that is unblockable and actually deals damage, and actual access to our group utility in pve. Or unique utility.

And that's not including our wants for our class to actually be finished. It lacks quantity and quality of damage skills that work together and are interesting. Not just raw damage. Our 4 damage skills are almost entirely raw damage with the only unique effects being major breach and a weak snare. A lot of other classes have many more dps skills to choose from that are a lot more interesting than just "raw damage". We have a theme we want to embrace so we feel more unique. And because it's a destruction element. But ZOS says no.

JackDaniell · August 2019

The changes this patch make it very hard for me to "play how I want" and punish me for not playing "zenimax's enforced meta".

When all classes are running the same build it must be balance right?

SosRuvaak · August 2019

i want my werewolf damage back.
they should rollback soo many changes its like this patch should've just been dungeons and nothing more.

where is the basic attack build i soo much loved on my nightblade??

Elusiin · August 2019

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Im finding the DoT focused combat boring.

No one is using only DoTs, where do you people keep coming up with this?? I use one dot, a delayed ability, and a spammable. It works great in PvP, and I use purge to counter DoTs. Combat is still fast and engaging, more so now than when people could just gank spank you in 2 seconds while you're cc'd/cc breaking. This was a good patch, try adapting.

LioraValkyrie · August 2019

I can't comment on PvP because I don't play it seriously, but In PvE class is now nothing but a little visual flavour. The same sets are BiS for all classes. All (mag) classes run double inferno. I miss my double lightning AoE destroyer petsorc with Necropotence, Undaunted Infiltrator, and Mage mundus - it was unique, there was nothing in the game like it, it felt amazing to play and it worked. Every class needs something like this - to excel at one thing, even if it is at the expense of something else. I'm not saying that you CAN'T run something unique, but it will no longer achieve unique results, it will just handicap you against the standardization meta.

jmgrant44ub17_ESO · August 2019

The game has never been balanced. When the original developers created the game it was three races and three alliances. All the races brought something different to the table. That got thrown out the window with the Imperial race added just before launch. Most creative people don't like having their work bastardized for money. The result is creative minds move on.

Nerfing and standardizing will continue until they can't get any more out of the community. Every update will require more and more nerfs to make room for the next update. Updates are not about balance they are about making room to fit the game on the the same servers they had since Tamriel One (2016).

Wifeaggro13 · August 2019

jmgrant44ub17_ESO wrote: »

The game has never been balanced. When the original developers created the game it was three races and three alliances. All the races brought something different to the table. That got thrown out the window with the Imperial race added just before launch. Most creative people don't like having their work bastardized for money. The result is creative minds move on.

Nerfing and standardizing will continue until they can't get any more out of the community. Every update will require more and more nerfs to make room for the next update. Updates are not about balance they are about making room to fit the game on the the same servers they had since Tamriel One (2016).

The guys who actually liked MMO's the dynamics of group play and had knowledge of how to build a MMO were let go a long long time ago. sage and Konkel . were now left with a game that has been re built to soothe a single player population that does not play for long term. The the game is in milk modefor sure i dont think they will even fix the CP system. They will continue to spit out garbage meatless chapters that are the price other MMOs charge for full expansions. and the DLC's are nothing but regurgitated ideas and tile sets to give the appearance of a large game world.