Racial balance patch revisited - DD meta as strict as ever

master_vanargand · August 2019

Imperial is not good at all roles.
Imperial DPS and Healer is bad.
Tank? Nord is far better than Imperial.

jbjondeaueb17_ESO · August 2019

Basically, balancing racial passives took an arrow to the knee when they removed soft-caps.

Lisutaris · August 2019

Switching between tank/heal/dd roles ..... ah... it's so terrible... let me enjoy my drink and think more about it:

Just play furry ones. Not great for everything but can manage all

Way better for enjoying the game and not being angry.

PS: Being hairy is called "ultimatively sexy" in 2019, you just haven't heard about it, spread it.

WrathOfInnos · August 2019

Runefang wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

pretty sure Altmer are BiS for Magicka dps not Breton.

Altmer can't sustain a full damage build, even with Worm, Ele Drain, and orbs on cooldown. They need to do one of the following:

- Use Clockwork Citrus instead of Bloody Mara, resulting in a loss of 2217 Magicka (2.0 standard set bonuses) and 2526 Health (2.09 standard set bonuses), and about the same sustain as Breton. This massive amount of stat loss is not worth the 258 Spell Damage (2.0 set bonuses).
- Replace 2 spell damage jewelry glyphs with magicka recovery glyphs, resulting in a loss of 348 spell damage to achieve the same sustain as Breton. Clearly it is not worth losing 348 to gain 258 from the Altmer passive.
- Replace the Shadow Mundus with Atronach Mundus. Without diving too deep into the numbers here, this results in a significant DPS loss. The Shadow Mundus adds about 8% DPS to most builds, and giving that up for the roughly 4% DPS from Altmer's 258 Spell Damage is not worth it.
- Wear False God's Devotion instead of Siroria. This one is a little tricky, since it depends on several factors. To achieve the same sustain as Breton, you'd need to be killing enemies pretty often in FGD, so it doesn't work well on some boss fights. On the other hand Siroria is not really viable for some boss fights either, so you may be comparing to a different damage set entirely. The main thing that kills this option for me is that there are several fights where I need Breton passives + FGD to sustain, in which case Altmer has to resort to one of the other poor options listed.

On top of all that, I find Breton's spell resistance to be far more useful than the off-stat resource return Altmer has. It really is a shame the way these races landed, since the first cycle of the race rebalance PTS had excellent balance across the board. Altmer had a little more sustain than it does now, and was nearly perfectly balanced with Breton. Khajiit was also performing very similar to those 2 races (before the crit chance was taken away and replaced with crit damage). Only Dunmer was a little behind, but it was subsequently buffed to be more in line, and has the benefit of swapping between stamina and magicka builds easily.

Overall the logs show Altmer generally topping the charts for DPS though, admittedly some Bretons appear and even Dunmer too so the differences can't be that great. Altmer are also topping 21m dummy parses for scalebreaker.

False God's did make the difference since Siroria is rarely a viable choice and when it is the fights are typically so short you don't need much sustain. Top Yolnahkriin parses don’t even run Siroria and that’s basically a pure parse fight.

When I ran vAS HM on my Magsorc and Magden which are both Breton and I had so much Magicka I didn’t know what to do with it. And it’s more of the more resource intensive fights I know of.

Hmm, not sure about logs. In my experience, Breton outperforms Altmer in trials. I actually changed race on my main Sorc from Altmer to Breton in Elsweyr specifically for Sunspire, and saw about 2% DPS gain along with a large increase in survivability. It may not sound like much, but both of these things are important for pushing Godslayer. I always use Siroria on Yolnahkriin, and can hit 70k single target pretty consistently in that fight.

zaria · August 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

pretty sure Altmer are BiS for Magicka dps not Breton.

Sustain is more important than damage for magicka in the current meta. Altmer has to build for sustain and health, which shaves off quite a bit of DPS.

Yeah, but perfected false god changed things quite a bit.

Depending on content, false god is magic VO, very good if you have decent amount of trash to kill, not so good if you do long burn on single bosses.

thestillwinter · August 2019

to join the meta. you need to play better than the meta player. to prove your worth you need to design a better meta than the meta. if you want to be the very best. like no esone ever was.

always a hoot when noobs to eso wollop those 810s whove been in meta gears since 2015. ive watched players light attack meta players to death.

did you know.....most players dont even know what weaving is? and most players think the forums is the place to read the cries of themselves but felt by other players?

meta or not. some players are just not good and find reason to blame their gear or class abilities. people cant just say....damn i suck at this game or..... i love this game but im just not that good at it. stop blaming you need the meta to be the best. people are the best cause they play the best and have the best knowledge of their setup and others "typical" setups.

you want to be the best? start by realizing its not the meta gear or abilities that makes you great.

MyKillv2.0 · August 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.

Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.

Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.

All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.

Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

.....all they did was reshuffle the meta

Answered. Oh, did I mention they had a race token sale shortly around this time? Odd.

Joking aside, the changes were not completely useless. They did get rid of most of the percentage based increases and replaced them with flat value stats. The changes seem to be in line with most of the changes from all of the audits that are happening and I would expect this to continue when they address the class/weapon passives in the near future (maybe Q4).

To 99% of the population, the 2/3k DPS different is not worth changing. Be a Bosmer MagDK for all you care BUT to those who believe they are apart of the 1%... yeah, Zo$ just milked you at the end of the day.

kojou · August 2019

The only clear winner was Orc. The combination of health, stamina and weapon damage is BiS.

All other races are pretty balanced.

carlos424 · August 2019

zaria wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

pretty sure Altmer are BiS for Magicka dps not Breton.

Sustain is more important than damage for magicka in the current meta. Altmer has to build for sustain and health, which shaves off quite a bit of DPS.

Yeah, but perfected false god changed things quite a bit.

Depending on content, false god is magic VO, very good if you have decent amount of trash to kill, not so good if you do long burn on single bosses.

Its still pretty good on long fights, only behind sororia, and thats if its a pure stack and burn fight, where you can keep up sororia stacks. Altmer using perfected false god’s for classes with decent sustain. Breton and false god’s for sorc. Being able to use bi-stat food increases max magicka enough to make damage comparable to sororia. Not to mention the extra health, very nice. Its always sketchy running zaan with 15k health : )

LiquidPony · August 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta.

ANYTHING ZOS does will have this effect, it's IMPOSSIBLE to balance everything to the 5th decimal place so the rabid min/maxers will ALWAYS find something to state as the BEST and the elitists will swarm to it until the next change.

The gap between Orc and Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit is like 2-3k DPS (if not more). That's huge.

I'm not sure the difference is actually that large, particularly between Orc and Khajiit. Maybe it is, I don't really see it. But even if it is, a 2k DPS difference on a 105k raid dummy parse is 1.9%. Not a lot.

Also, worth noting that this is a totally artificial environment where people parse on raid dummies with Lavafoot food and 64 points in stamina (which is not practical in a lot of real content).

Especially this patch with the change to the Master's Resto, I'll be interested to see what it looks like to run something like a Redguard or Bosmer using blue bi-stat food and all 64 points in Stamina as opposed to an Orc with Lavafoot and 15-20 points in Health. And that's specific to Necros. For other classes (who are using Dubious/Artaeum rather than Lavafoot), they may be able to just switch back to blue bi-stat food as well on races with better sustain.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 2019

Yep, when it comes to racials ZOS just shifted the meta. Original goal was really very simple (They wrote it themselves LOL) :
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
1. Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.
2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.
3. Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.
4. Improve the sense of progression that the racial passives provide when leveling up.
5. Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.

So basically, they wanted to make all races be able to fulfil all roles, without any clear "bis" race for X role, and make it lore - friendly.

What we ended up with is more or less Orc being BIS for Stamina builds and Breton being BIS for Magicka builds, with some exceptions. But still out of 10 races, 3 - 5 are considered BIS (depending of the content). The other races were either shafted into uselessness or into one role, often without being BIS or even close to BIS at that role.

Argonians & Wood Elf is probably the best example.

Before racial rebalance Argonians were mostly picked because of their recourse management passive. After racial rebalance, they were no longer "competitive" when it comes to sustain and their healing buff was gone / nerfed. It was not compensated in the areas, where Argonians were bad at (DPS). So there was no reason one would want to pick them other than RP.

Same for the Wood Elf. Roll-dodge penetration bonus is very situational and detection bonus is only useful in PvP. Although, unlike Argonians, they have a VERY narrow use - IC pre-made detection "specialist"... Buut it is still way to narrow, making them useless.

When it comes to Argonians imho they should make the following changes:

Life Mender (Possibly change the name of this passive):
Increases your healing done by 6% by 5%, gain 100 Weapon or Spell Damage, depending on your higher resource - Maximum Stamina or Magicka.

Argonian Resistance:
Increases Max Health by 1000 and and Disease Resistance by 2310 Disease Resistance by 2310 and Poison by 1320
Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect.

Resourceful:
Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 Max Magicka and Stamina by 750
Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina

Wood Elves could use changes too, although I have no ideas what could help, other than giving them back at least this 1320 Disease Resistance bonus (but with no immunity, similar how Argonians could have Poison Resistance back, but with no immunity to it).

Anyway, I have said it back then, and I will say it again - ZOS should really look back at THEIR original goals, then look at each race independently and place a big "Check mark" ✔ at every of their goals at each race. If they can not place that ✔, then it means - back to the drawing board, till they can.

srfrogg23 · August 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.

Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.

Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.

All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.

Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?

Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".

Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.

Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.

Cundu_Ertur · August 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Yep, when it comes to racials ZOS just shifted the meta. Original goal was really very simple (They wrote it themselves LOL) :
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
1. Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.
2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.
3. Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.
4. Improve the sense of progression that the racial passives provide when leveling up.
5. Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.

So basically, they wanted to make all races be able to fulfil all roles, without any clear "bis" race for X role, and make it lore - friendly.

What we ended up with is more or less Orc being BIS for Stamina builds and Breton being BIS for Magicka builds, with some exceptions. But still out of 10 races, 3 - 5 are considered BIS (depending of the content). The other races were either shafted into uselessness or into one role, often without being BIS or even close to BIS at that role.

Argonians & Wood Elf is probably the best example.

Before racial rebalance Argonians were mostly picked because of their recourse management passive. After racial rebalance, they were no longer "competitive" when it comes to sustain and their healing buff was gone / nerfed. It was not compensated in the areas, where Argonians were bad at (DPS). So there was no reason one would want to pick them other than RP.

Same for the Wood Elf. Roll-dodge penetration bonus is very situational and detection bonus is only useful in PvP. Although, unlike Argonians, they have a VERY narrow use - IC pre-made detection "specialist"... Buut it is still way to narrow, making them useless.

When it comes to Argonians imho they should make the following changes:
Life Mender (Possibly change the name of this passive):
Increases your healing done by 6% by 5%, gain 100 Weapon or Spell Damage, depending on your higher resource - Maximum Stamina or Magicka.

Argonian Resistance:
Increases Max Health by 1000 and and Disease Resistance by 2310 Disease Resistance by 2310 and Poison by 1320
Gain Immunity to the diseased status effect.

Resourceful:
Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 Max Magicka and Stamina by 750
Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina

Wood Elves could use changes too, although I have no ideas what could help, other than giving them back at least this 1320 Disease Resistance bonus (but with no immunity, similar how Argonians could have Poison Resistance back, but with no immunity to it).

Anyway, I have said it back then, and I will say it again - ZOS should really look back at THEIR original goals, then look at each race independently and place a big "Check mark" ✔ at every of their goals at each race. If they can not place that ✔, then it means - back to the drawing board, till they can.

I agree with all of your general points, but with the Bosmer in particular I think that the primary issue is that there can only be a big fat red X in the 'lore' category. Never at all in the history of the Elder Scrolls have Bosmer had any kind of detection bonus; they have always had a hiding bonus. Not just in the gameplay of previous games, but also in the books and the backstory. They have also been noted as being the absolute best archers, which is no longer the case at all. Orcs and Dunmer do more damage shot-for-shot with bows, arguably Redguards and Imperials are better with bows due to their discount on bow skills. With regards to the resistances, unlike the Argonians who have lore emphatically supporting both resistances, Bosmer have no lore supporting any kind of particular resistance. Which caught me off guard once I researched it. I'm fine with Argonians regaining what they should have (both resistances) with Bosmer getting what they have now for resistance.

But the Hunter's Eye passive as it currently stands is a complete hot mess. It was originally the (completely useless and lore-breaking) detection bonus plus a hefty speed bonus after a roll dodge, but that was OP. So it got turned into a (completely useless and lore-breaking) detection bonus plus a moderate speed bonus AND a highly conditional and fairly expensive penetration bonus after a roll dodge. It's goofy, at best (ie. if you ignore the completely useless and lore-breaking bit). My suggestion for Hunter's Eye is (obviously) return the hiding bonus, ditch the (completely useless and lore-breaking) detection bonus, keep the roll-dodge speed bonus, and then replace the conditional penetration bonus with something that is always on, but only for bows. Like an increased crit chance with bows, or increased penetration with bows. Sadly increased weapon damage with bows is out of the question.

Evito · August 2019

SoLooney wrote: »

Breton is not the best magicka dps race even with the nerf to recovery food.
High and dark elves will out parse them on gold food than bretons on bi stat

I'll admit orc is extremely good compared to redguard, wood elf or khajiit. Heck, they beat dark elves cause they have more stam, more health, and they run faster which helps immensely for speed runs

At least magicka, high elf, dark elf, and bretons are pretty well balanced. You either pick damage or sustain. With false god, bretons are pretty much obsolete

High elf and Breton are a magicka choice for damage vs sustain. It’s a reasonable choice to make (though it’s lopsided this patch in favor of high elf due to less sustain issues). Dark Elf was pretty much destroyed with the changes a while back since it’s only a good choice for people who swap between stam and magicka builds - jack of all trades master of none.

Ratzkifal · August 2019

Evito wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

Breton is not the best magicka dps race even with the nerf to recovery food.
High and dark elves will out parse them on gold food than bretons on bi stat

I'll admit orc is extremely good compared to redguard, wood elf or khajiit. Heck, they beat dark elves cause they have more stam, more health, and they run faster which helps immensely for speed runs

At least magicka, high elf, dark elf, and bretons are pretty well balanced. You either pick damage or sustain. With false god, bretons are pretty much obsolete

High elf and Breton are a magicka choice for damage vs sustain. It’s a reasonable choice to make (though it’s lopsided this patch in favor of high elf due to less sustain issues). Dark Elf was pretty much destroyed with the changes a while back since it’s only a good choice for people who swap between stam and magicka builds - jack of all trades master of none.

Considering what Darkelfs gain compared compared to Highelfs, I wouldn't say they got destroyed. More max stamina is useful in every part of the game, the 258 spell damage is identical, the 125 magicka difference is a difference of 11.9 spell damage I heard (which is small enough to be zero) and the 3rd passive of the Highelfs is not very useful at all while fire resistance is neat. Personally I'd say those two are equal.
Orcs vs Darkelfs is a different matter.

Edit: Changed the amount of spell damage 125 is equal to to the actual amount. I was off by like 5 spell damage.

MLGProPlayer · August 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.

Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.

Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.

All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.

Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?

Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".

Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.

Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.

It's not like racial passives add any depth to the gameplay. You just look at the numbers and pick the best race for your role. Or you pick the one you think looks best.

MLGProPlayer · August 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Evito wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

Breton is not the best magicka dps race even with the nerf to recovery food.
High and dark elves will out parse them on gold food than bretons on bi stat

I'll admit orc is extremely good compared to redguard, wood elf or khajiit. Heck, they beat dark elves cause they have more stam, more health, and they run faster which helps immensely for speed runs

At least magicka, high elf, dark elf, and bretons are pretty well balanced. You either pick damage or sustain. With false god, bretons are pretty much obsolete

High elf and Breton are a magicka choice for damage vs sustain. It’s a reasonable choice to make (though it’s lopsided this patch in favor of high elf due to less sustain issues). Dark Elf was pretty much destroyed with the changes a while back since it’s only a good choice for people who swap between stam and magicka builds - jack of all trades master of none.

Considering what Darkelfs gain compared compared to Highelfs, I wouldn't say they got destroyed. More max stamina is useful in every part of the game, the 258 spell damage is identical, the 125 magicka difference is a difference of 7 spell damage I heard (which is small enough to be zero) and the 3rd passive of the Highelfs is not very useful at all while fire resistance is neat. Personally I'd say those two are equal.
Orcs vs Darkelfs is a different matter.

125 magicka = 11.9 spell damage. The margin of error between parses is bigger than that.

Eraldus · August 2019

Reading these topics like this, I often wonder how these people worrying so much about being the best of the best of the best of the best can even enjoy playing a game, when you'll most likely never reach that goal... It must really suck to not be able to enjoy playing the game for what it's worth, because your sole reason of finding any joy in a game, is when you're the best, or if you're playing the current "Meta".

I'm not saying people shouldn't aim to improve their playstyle or anything of the sort, but I'm sure as hell would get stressed pretty easily and wouldn't be able to enjoy any game at all, if my only concern and my only way of having fun in games I play, is to chase the "Meta/BiS" flavour of the month. If I want to play a tank Imperial, I'll play a tank Imperial and I don't really care if a Nord is a better tank, because of a passive that should only give them maybe 1% of advantage over my Imperial tank.

I'm glad I don't play games for the sole sake of competition, or else I wouldn't find joy in playing most of the games I own.

Grandma · August 2019

I feel like magicka is perfectly tuned right now. Breton and Altmer compete for spot in BIS but they're both totally viable. on the other hand dunmer and khajiit make great magdps as well due to their resource pools and such- more crit damage on khajiiit is actually amazing, and more stam and mag on dunmer can be incredibly useful in a lot of scenarios.

altmer and breton are even in my eyes because one is kinda a beginner's race where the other is pro hardcore. Breton is forgiving with more defenses, cost reduction, and sustain, but once you master sustain breton stops offering a lot. If you have support and your rotation is good, you shouldn't have sustain issues right ? that's when the fight for Altmer becomes interesting, because they suffer from not having the 8% cost reduction, but have a lot of spell damage to pay off for it. On the other hand, the other remotely competitive mag races still parse close to these ones.

stam is a mess though. it's orc, maybe redguard, or the highway.

Vapirko · August 2019

bigelle.x3_ESO wrote: »

There can only be one best setup and that's what the high end pve players will run. The races are more or less in a good spot in terms of balance.

I agree with this and would add that why should PvE DDs be the standard for racial balance? If anything look to open world solo PvP for racial balance where a person needs to build for a mix of damage, mitigation and healing. By contrast PvE DDs fit into the smallest most narrow role of doing one thing over and over all using the same setups and skills.

idk · August 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.

Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.

Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.

All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.

Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?

Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".

Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.

Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.

It's not like racial passives add any depth to the gameplay. You just look at the numbers and pick the best race for your role. Or you pick the one you think looks best.

You contradict yourself here. You seem to indicate the passives do not add any depth to gameplay yet you clearly suggest we look at the numbers when we choose a race unless we are just going for looks.

They person you quoted was basically correct. There will always be preferred choice and according to your words, it does add depth to the game even if it is just a little depth.

Recent · August 2019

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

They had to give motivation to sell all those sweet, sweet racial change tokens!

This is $$$ZOS$$$ we are talking about.

Except they gave everyone 3 free race change tokens when the racials were adjusted.

Not this time around they didnt

AbysmalGhul · August 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

danara wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

All this nonsense about "meta" and "BiS"... Big, fancy words for saying "copy-paste that build and be one with it". What happened to "play however you like" ? Can't believe some people actually defend the idea that there can be only one way to play, either. This game has potential for creativity, but the dev team itself tries very hard to limit that.

I am sorry to tell u this : but some of us play in order to be the Best, to be in the top of all the tanking... For those guys, yeah Bis and meta is a huge things, that is why you are see right Now 8 stamcro all running the same stuff and the same build doing the same rotation...

And that's precisely the problem that needs to be addressed. There needs to be more variety in endgame.

But why do other players get to decide that? If people want to run a stamcro meta, then so be it. That's between the 12 people that are doing the trial.

There is plenty of variety in end game. People seem to focus on the very few groups that do this

Browiseth · August 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.

Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.

Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.

All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.

Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?

Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".

Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.

Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.

@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this

pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this

MLGProPlayer · August 2019

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

danara wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

All this nonsense about "meta" and "BiS"... Big, fancy words for saying "copy-paste that build and be one with it". What happened to "play however you like" ? Can't believe some people actually defend the idea that there can be only one way to play, either. This game has potential for creativity, but the dev team itself tries very hard to limit that.

I am sorry to tell u this : but some of us play in order to be the Best, to be in the top of all the tanking... For those guys, yeah Bis and meta is a huge things, that is why you are see right Now 8 stamcro all running the same stuff and the same build doing the same rotation...

And that's precisely the problem that needs to be addressed. There needs to be more variety in endgame.

But why do other players get to decide that? If people want to run a stamcro meta, then so be it. That's between the 12 people that are doing the trial.

There is plenty of variety in end game. People seem to focus on the very few groups that do this

It's the optimal setup for any group.

srfrogg23 · August 2019

Browiseth wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.

Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.

Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.

All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.

Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?

Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".

Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.

Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.

@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this

pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this

Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.

No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!

Browiseth · August 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.

Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.

Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.

All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.

Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?

Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".

Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.

Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.

@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this

pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this

Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.

No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!

???

sorry, you've lost me

srfrogg23 · August 2019

Browiseth wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.

Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.

Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.

All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.

Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?

Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".

Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.

Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.

@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this

pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this

Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.

No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!

???

sorry, you've lost me

Lol, you were lost before you responded to my post, weren't you? You just saw a comparison to CoD and decided that you just absolutely had to call me out, and had zero clue what I was talking about. Well, you now have my attention. What would you like to discuss?

Jeremy · August 2019

Alaya wrote: »

Keep in mind their original plan was to make it so that every race could be -anything- (or so how I remember it anyhow). They wanted it so if you wanted to play a mag character from a stam race, you could and you'd have racial bonuses to that. That's not what we ended up with.

I don't give a flying eff about the meta, I've never followed it, I simply want to HAVE FUN, but when one of my characters core racial skill which I've been using since I started playing gets taken away from my character and replaced with the most useless passive I've ever seen in an MMO, that kills my fun.

Racials have been core identities in previous Elder Scrolls games, but since this is not your ordinary Elder Scrolls game (being that it in an MMO) what race you choose defines whether you get to play with the "big guns" or if you're more or less regulated to just being deadweight to others simply because you chose the wrong race (and now class it seems thanks to Elsweyr).

This is what I remember the goal to be as well.

You're never going to have equal races because that is the entire purpose of adding racial passives to begin with - to make certain races better than others at certain things.

TheBonesXXX · August 2019

Remove the score boards, meta problem solved.