I'm sure in a few patches we'll just be light attacking everything to death since ZOS seems to think nerfing all the good Stam abilities in the game will make the game fun...

Erm, what?

I'm no score runner but I get 550k flawless without trap now.

Nifty2g wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Erm, what?

I'm no score runner but I get 550k flawless without trap now.

Then this thread clearly is not aimed at you is it?

Then who is it aimed at? Echo chamber much...

Premise: without rearming trap, stam cannot competitively run vma and only RPers will run the arena.

Counter point: non competitive player can achieve above average score (flawless) without rearming trap.

This is most radicolous thread I've seen today. Not changing an ability because it'll make 1 particular type of score pushers in 1 particular arena less effective. Get real.

Supernatural wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

This is most radicolous thread I've seen today. Not changing an ability because it'll make 1 particular type of score pushers in 1 particular arena less effective. Get real.

The point is that there is no reasoning behind the change. Reducing the immobilization effect of trap down to 2 seconds will solve absolutely nothing. It is a change that is not needed and one that nobody asked for.

There is a reasoning behind it. If devs really said what OP is suggesting that it's done also to resolve some performance issues who are You to say there is no reasoning behind it ?

Also it's very fair trade off to shorten the immobilize duration as the ability itself is becoming stronger in terms of DPS , flexibility in rotation and lower resource drain.

There is more then enough reasoning behind that change. The issue is that it doesnt fit Your agenda and the obsolete type of content You were using that imobilize for (vMA score pushing). Sorry but if You expect that developers will put vMA score pushers above resolving balance and performance issues then You should wake up.

Trap change in general is very decent one. If it will help also with server proccesing it's even better. Fact it wont do it's job anymore for vMA score pushing on stamina builds is so irrelevant it makes it silly there is thread about that. How many people is hardcore vMA score pushers on stamina builds ? 10 , 20 players per update per server ? You really expect developer to care about that group and put their desires and needs over general ideas that may help improve the game for everyone because that small group will have few seconds longer score run ? Like seriously ?...

What I think it funny about all these changes is we note the crap that occurs since the game launched. The poor performance of the servers, odd changes to combat, and much more. We see changes in personnel and still things remain the same. Odd how during all of this there is one constant. We will have Matt Firor using his deep experience and knowledge to guide the games development and set the focus of the teams. Amazing how well they are "killing it".

Supernatural wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Supernatural wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

This is most radicolous thread I've seen today. Not changing an ability because it'll make 1 particular type of score pushers in 1 particular arena less effective. Get real.

The point is that there is no reasoning behind the change. Reducing the immobilization effect of trap down to 2 seconds will solve absolutely nothing. It is a change that is not needed and one that nobody asked for.

There is a reasoning behind it. If devs really said what OP is suggesting that it's done also to resolve some performance issues who are You to say there is no reasoning behind it ?

Also it's very fair trade off to shorten the immobilize duration as the ability itself is becoming stronger in terms of DPS , flexibility in rotation and lower resource drain.

There is more then enough reasoning behind that change. The issue is that it doesnt fit Your agenda and the obsolete type of content You were using that imobilize for (vMA score pushing). Sorry but if You expect that developers will put vMA score pushers above resolving balance and performance issues then You should wake up.

Trap change in general is very decent one. If it will help also with server proccesing it's even better. Fact it wont do it's job anymore for vMA score pushing on stamina builds is so irrelevant it makes it silly there is thread about that. How many people is hardcore vMA score pushers on stamina builds ? 10 , 20 players per update per server ? You really expect developer to care about that group and put their desires and needs over general ideas that may help improve the game for everyone because that small group will have few seconds longer score run ? Like seriously ?...

Improved server processing, please, give me a break. The reason ESO has these insane performance issues is because of the game's outdated core mechanics. The fact that CPU usage is never above 25% says everything you need to know as to why the game is not running properly. There have been countless such small "tweaks" over the years and performance has not improved. The problem lies elsewhere and everybody knows it.

And to move on to the combat part, bringing back the 6s immobilization will hurt NOBODY. Absolutely nobody. Will it like become broken and abused? No, it will not. Combat-wise, there is absolutely no constructive reasoning behind the change, that is a fact.

And that "obsolete" content that you are referring to happens to be a part of ESO's endgame, as well as the only high-end solo PvE content in the game. And some people, myself included, really do enjoy pushing for high scores and coming up with new strategies. Why take that away from us?

Are You a Zenimax developer working on server performance to know what is the reason behind everything that is causing server issues ? Do You know excatly how each ability is coded and how it influences game code ? I dont think so. So please stop with saying what is and what isnt causing server performance issues because it brings no more reliable informations to the discussion then the information what I had on dinner yesterday. Using argument "there were tweak like that previously and it didnt changed much" is also laughable. How do You know how this change will excaly look from the code perspective ? Once again I think You dont know that. if ZoS said it's made to improve certain calculations or whatever was causing issues with the server that is final unless You'll bring heavy arguments against that not some random speculations.

Bringing back 6 seconds immobilize will hurt balance. Trap would be simply too strong ability. Especially in PvP. Cheaper and stronger then before DoT that also gives 18 seconds of minor force is already very strong ability. Keeping 6 seconds imobilize on top of that is just making is overpowered. Would it become broken and abused ? Definietly YES. And even in PvE how You can not see that with so many improvements to the ability there also should be something toned down a little. All that improvements plus ability to keep mobs in place for 6 seconds is simply too good for 1 ability. How can You even think that having high dmg , strong buff and high control over the target is not overloaded. Ah sorry You wont see that because Your bias wont allow You to. It's basically like wanting for reach to keep increased DoT dmg but also bringing back high initial dmg and stun. Get real. That is a fact.

Yeah it is part of an end game. So what ? Does that mean vMa score pushing should be untouched and unchanged because of the 10-20 people per server that truly participates in it ? Fact it's a part of end game doesnt change a fact it's obsolete and niche part of and game performed by extremly small amount of people and developer should always take under consideration what is "greater good".

Well if You really enjoy pushing the scores and coming up with new strategies then You actually should be happy for that changes since now You'll have opportunity excatly for that. With trap changes You'll have to finally come up with new strategies after years of stagnation. You should actually praise ZoS that they actually gave You an opportunity to further improve , adapt and "come up with new strategies". If that is what You really wanted from that end game part of content...

Supernatural wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Supernatural wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Supernatural wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

This is most radicolous thread I've seen today. Not changing an ability because it'll make 1 particular type of score pushers in 1 particular arena less effective. Get real.

The point is that there is no reasoning behind the change. Reducing the immobilization effect of trap down to 2 seconds will solve absolutely nothing. It is a change that is not needed and one that nobody asked for.

There is a reasoning behind it. If devs really said what OP is suggesting that it's done also to resolve some performance issues who are You to say there is no reasoning behind it ?

Also it's very fair trade off to shorten the immobilize duration as the ability itself is becoming stronger in terms of DPS , flexibility in rotation and lower resource drain.

There is more then enough reasoning behind that change. The issue is that it doesnt fit Your agenda and the obsolete type of content You were using that imobilize for (vMA score pushing). Sorry but if You expect that developers will put vMA score pushers above resolving balance and performance issues then You should wake up.

Trap change in general is very decent one. If it will help also with server proccesing it's even better. Fact it wont do it's job anymore for vMA score pushing on stamina builds is so irrelevant it makes it silly there is thread about that. How many people is hardcore vMA score pushers on stamina builds ? 10 , 20 players per update per server ? You really expect developer to care about that group and put their desires and needs over general ideas that may help improve the game for everyone because that small group will have few seconds longer score run ? Like seriously ?...

Improved server processing, please, give me a break. The reason ESO has these insane performance issues is because of the game's outdated core mechanics. The fact that CPU usage is never above 25% says everything you need to know as to why the game is not running properly. There have been countless such small "tweaks" over the years and performance has not improved. The problem lies elsewhere and everybody knows it.

And to move on to the combat part, bringing back the 6s immobilization will hurt NOBODY. Absolutely nobody. Will it like become broken and abused? No, it will not. Combat-wise, there is absolutely no constructive reasoning behind the change, that is a fact.

And that "obsolete" content that you are referring to happens to be a part of ESO's endgame, as well as the only high-end solo PvE content in the game. And some people, myself included, really do enjoy pushing for high scores and coming up with new strategies. Why take that away from us?

Are You a Zenimax developer working on server performance to know what is the reason behind everything that is causing server issues ? Do You know excatly how each ability is coded and how it influences game code ? I dont think so. So please stop with saying what is and what isnt causing server performance issues because it brings no more reliable informations to the discussion then the information what I had on dinner yesterday. Using argument "there were tweak like that previously and it didnt changed much" is also laughable. How do You know how this change will excaly look from the code perspective ? Once again I think You dont know that. if ZoS said it's made to improve certain calculations or whatever was causing issues with the server that is final unless You'll bring heavy arguments against that not some random speculations.

Bringing back 6 seconds immobilize will hurt balance. Trap would be simply too strong ability. Especially in PvP. Cheaper and stronger then before DoT that also gives 18 seconds of minor force is already very strong ability. Keeping 6 seconds imobilize on top of that is just making is overpowered. Would it become broken and abused ? Definietly YES. And even in PvE how You can not see that with so many improvements to the ability there also should be something toned down a little. All that improvements plus ability to keep mobs in place for 6 seconds is simply too good for 1 ability. How can You even think that having high dmg , strong buff and high control over the target is not overloaded. Ah sorry You wont see that because Your bias wont allow You to. It's basically like wanting for reach to keep increased DoT dmg but also bringing back high initial dmg and stun. Get real. That is a fact.

Yeah it is part of an end game. So what ? Does that mean vMa score pushing should be untouched and unchanged because of the 10-20 people per server that truly participates in it ? Fact it's a part of end game doesnt change a fact it's obsolete and niche part of and game performed by extremly small amount of people and developer should always take under consideration what is "greater good".

Well if You really enjoy pushing the scores and coming up with new strategies then You actually should be happy for that changes since now You'll have opportunity excatly for that. With trap changes You'll have to finally come up with new strategies after years of stagnation. You should actually praise ZoS that they actually gave You an opportunity to further improve , adapt and "come up with new strategies". If that is what You really wanted from that end game part of content...

I am no developer by any means. But one does not need to have any special knowledge to understand what is going on with ESO's performance. Unoptimized game engine.

You are saying that a 6s immobilization will hurt balance.

In PvP, a trap will, for the most part, be placed in choke points and will quite often be accompanied by a couple of other AOEs. When you get immobilized by trap, you should dodge roll out, especially when facing multiple players, where AOE fests take place. In other words, whether the immobilization effect lasts 2 or 6 seconds is totally irrelevant. You should roll immediately.

In trials, again, the immobilization duration is completely irrelevant. You are constantly fighting heavies which cannot be immobilized, so how will a 6s durarion hurt balance? Same goes for dungeons.

Finally, Maelstrom. Your point is that the ability will be overloaded, as it will have higher damage, a strong buff and the ability to lock enemies in place and something should be toned down in order to keep it in line. Well, guess what. It no longer rearms, here is your toning down. If the rearming effect had been kept, I would also agree that it would be too strong indeed. But back to Maelstrom. Trap in vMA is not used for its damage. It is used mainly for locking enemies in place, as well as for providing minor force. The increased damage will play little to no part. If you cannot keep adds place, trap loses so much of its potency.

vMA scorepushing is not left untouched. In fact, the nerfs are plenty: Decreased Volley, Caltrops and Silver Leash damage for stam builds (20% nerf to Power Extraction when it comes to Nightblades) and decreased damage on AOE dots for magicka builds (reduced pet damage on Magsorcs). These nerfs, while they will have a definite negative impacy in scores, they are nerfs that one can live with and adapt. But the removal of the 6s immobilization is a complete game changer. And to end that "obsolete" argument, no content is obsolete. Whether it is run by more or less people does not matter. It is a part of the game.

To sum this all up, upon reading your last paragraph, I came to the conclusion that you do not have much clue as to how stamina vMA scorepushing works. Which is totally fine, not everyone has the time to spend countless of hours in that place.

You are literally saying that I should be thanking ZOS for giving me the opportunity to finally come up with new strategies after years of stagnation. Honestly, are you even comprehending what you are writing? To make this really simple to you, scorepushing is ENTIRELY dependant on trap beast. Take the 6s immobilization away and Stamina will see an easy 7-8k score decrease and will no longer be able to compete with its magicka counterparts. All strategies rely upon trap beast. Without it, nothing but genericness. Zero strategy uniqueness.

So please, do me a favor and take an actual look at some high end vMA videos and understand how scorepushing works before typing hilarious stuff about how I should be praising ZOS.

I have nothing else to say to you.

If You're no developer by any means then that is the point where You should make a pause. There is no "but" You are not qualified in the subject to say about it. The thing is to say "one does not need any special knowledge to understand what is going on with ESO's performance" ironically enough You need that knowledge to say that for sure otherwise You're just speculating. If You dont know wheter or not it'll help to improve how that particular ability is processed by the game code then simply dont comment on that matter. Using Your logic from previous post there were way smaller parts of code in the past that were causing ingame issues on theoretically unrelated to them parts of the game and You're no expert to say wheter this one is or isnt that type of an issue.

You're thinking way too one dimensional and in standards of curent state of the game not state of the game after the update. What choke point You're talking about ? Choke points made of what ? Of vastly reduced in damage ground target AoEs ? Or just areas like doors ? It's not like in PvP You really need closed space for enemy to walk into Your trap and even if You need that it's not that hard to make that happen. I think You dont realise that with increased amount of DoT dmg that lasts for 18 seconds and 18 seconds of minor force without the need to rearm plus reduced cost , the way of how and what for trap is used can change to basically strong single target DOT and it's no issue for meele DD to actually get enemy into the trap. Just place it underneath enemy and then stun him and before he'll break free he'll have trap on him. With 6 seconds immobilize that would be insane adventage. 2 seconds of immobilize is a time enemy can spend on doing something different like rebuffing or stunning You and waiting until that immobilize will go of if he knows it'll last for only 2 seconds. 6 seconds is leaving no other option for enemy then to dodge roll because otherwise it'll be deat wish. That would add additional level of power to trap because You not only have lower cost , high damage and great buff but also strong control over enemy and his resource managment. 4 seconds of immobilize makes a huge difference in PvP in terms of controlling the enemy.

Fact that 6 seconds immobilize is irrelevant in boss fights doesnt suddenly remove mentioned earlier situations when it actually gives You adventage. Funnily enough I would say that if that immobilize is so strong that it allows for that high score pushing in vMA that is a reason to actually tone it down.

As for losing the rearm effect that is actually same buff as nerf depends from which side You're looking at it. For example previously in situation where boss moved out of Your trap before it rearmed You had to recast next one earlier causing sustain and DPS drops. Now You're free of that issue since once applied it'll be active for 18 seconds no matter what. Once again vMA is not only place in this game and for most of the places changes to trap are very decent buff. It seems like You're looking at things only from vMA perspective which makes Your point of view kinda rigged.

I do realise that vMA score pushing was touched and it wont be performed the way it used to up to this point. But does it mean it wont be performed or possible to perform at all ? I highly doubt that. It'll be just different maybe top scores will be lower then current ones but still there will be people fightning for that top scores. As You said there is plenty of nerfs yet there are ways to adapt to them. How do You know definietly stamina setups wont find a way to adapt either ? have You tested all solutions possible ? Do You know ZoS's plans for future updates ? I kinda doubt that.

As for You argument that "no content is obsolete" i disagree. As You should already know I used that word in a meaning of a niche type of content. And yes in that context there is plenty of obsolete content in the game that is performed by extremly small groups of people. You really thing balance of whole game should be made with keeping those 10-20 people in mind ? By Your logic for example ZoS should never touch miss chance on major evasion despite the fact it was very strong in PvP only because few tanks (I think there were more of them then vMA score pushers) weas playing in medium armor with shuffle and tava's favour. You think those few tanks was enough of a reason to stop whole balancing of the game ?

As for my lack of knowledge about vMA score pushing on stamina and the usage of trap in that , You are talking about pulling the mob with a leash into previously set trap+ground AoEs and turning around to pull another mob while previous one is immobilized in a trap inside AoEs and taking DoT dmg and then using direct dmg to finish them both as 1st one that was pulled is already almost dead and tactics similar to that? Yes I know about those tactics and I know trap is important part of it yet I dont see how is that a reason for keeping 6 seconds immobilize on trap. Niche usage is still niche. Fact it's important in niche type of content doesnt change a fact it's still niche.

Well maybe because trap beast was that affective people got lazy and that is why all strategies relied on it. Yes You should praise the ZoS for changing that and opening posibilities for new theorycrafting for next few months and looking for ways to adapt and overcome current trap changes. Isnt improving and finding new ways to be better the best part of the journey ? Are You totally certain scorepushing totally relies on trap ? Have You tested or atleast theorycrafted ALL possible ways of doing it ? I dont think so especially as You said for last few years it was basically the same way of doing it. To be fair I would be actually excited if I would be You and yes I would praise the ZoS for ending few years long stagnation and boredom. Of course that is if my main goal would be really caring about pushing the score for the pelasure of doing it but I think in Your case it's not how it looks like.

Maybe You should actually say openly that what is really bothering You is the fact that getting scores higher then the current top ones will be very hard and You may even think it'll be impossible and all that matters personally for You is that juicy 10 points more over current worlds best and that is main reason why You dont like trap change because it disables possibility for that in close future. Because of course getting best score in that update wont be satysfying for You if that wont be new world record am I right ? That is called elitism and it's something developers should avoid of catering to.