Curious about 2.3 of the ToS and mistreatment of a player

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

Derogatory, defamatory or offensive content used in conjunction with names of famous or important historical, political, religious figures or website URL's are not allowed. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of Yourself or another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. You will not create an account name that is in reference to or contains copyright names, popular characters, or the names of modern era serial killers, individuals or groups who have committed crimes against humanity in the past. You will also refrain from participating in conspiracy theories, misinformation or fallacious comments.

I was in a guild with a member that was told they had to change almost all of the character name. They were mostly dead composers or something like that but I was curious as to why they had to rename the characters. It doesnt make sense to me and because of this they decided to leave the game. The whole thing got my curiosity stirred up and I went and read the ToS and Code of Conduct and cant fathom how they broke it. And before you wonder yes they had a screen shot and showed us the email from the studios. Is it possible to get clarification because I want to know if a name or two I have are going to get that treatment. Someone from the studios giving a response would be appreciated.

Huyen · August 2019

Basicly put: you dont own the game. You rent it (like all others from zos these days). So they can force you to anything in theory. And the ToS states you cant use any historical important figures. Funny how they forbid you to partake in conspiracy theories as well...

Tandor · August 2019

It isn't hard to come up with an original name, there's no reason to set out to name your characters after dead composers or other historical figures, and personally I'm glad the ToS forbid it as I've played other games where people are running around with such names and it just looks stupid and out of place in a MMORPG.

ZephyrWestwind · August 2019

No one from the studio will respond on the forum to this. It would be allowing for the discussion of disciplinary and that's a no-no.

The best thing for you to do is forget about it and if it does happen to you at some future date, you will then have cause to question support about the action. Then you can accept the decision and change the name or mimic your friend and quit over it. Up to you.

Also 2.3 is not the only section covering names 2.1,2.2,2.4 and 3.1 all deal with it in some manner.

Nifty2g · August 2019

Tandor wrote: »

It isn't hard to come up with an original name, there's no reason to set out to name your characters after dead composers or other historical figures, and personally I'm glad the ToS forbid it as I've played other games where people are running around with such names and it just looks stupid and out of place in a MMORPG.

Depends, sometimes it is out of respect or appreciation. Nothing bad with that. Not every character name needs to be some roleplay name, not everyone likes to do it

goldenarcher1 · August 2019

Someone actually read the TOS?

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

Huyen wrote: »

Basicly put: you dont own the game. You rent it (like all others from zos these days). So they can force you to anything in theory. And the ToS states you cant use any historical important figures. Funny how they forbid you to partake in conspiracy theories as well...

actually it states you cant use in conjunction with something offensive defamatory or derogatory. And I just come from the line of thought that you stand by your word. In this case the studio didnt. Its a shame they were a nice person, and to the other posters they did it out of respect and it was a homage to the things they did that impacted their life. And what part of this was a conspiracy theory? I was asking for understanding and clarification on something that wasnt correct.

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

ZephyrWestwind wrote: »

No one from the studio will respond on the forum to this. It would be allowing for the discussion of disciplinary and that's a no-no.

The best thing for you to do is forget about it and if it does happen to you at some future date, you will then have cause to question support about the action. Then you can accept the decision and change the name or mimic your friend and quit over it. Up to you.

Also 2.3 is not the only section covering names 2.1,2.2,2.4 and 3.1 all deal with it in some manner.

2.3 was the one they kept putting in the email response but no other ones even mention character names on that front. I do know one of the names he made it the female version of the male name and they made them change that one too. I mean seriously thats just petty as a company.

Tandor · August 2019

unclesheosnephew wrote: »

ZephyrWestwind wrote: »

No one from the studio will respond on the forum to this. It would be allowing for the discussion of disciplinary and that's a no-no.

The best thing for you to do is forget about it and if it does happen to you at some future date, you will then have cause to question support about the action. Then you can accept the decision and change the name or mimic your friend and quit over it. Up to you.

Also 2.3 is not the only section covering names 2.1,2.2,2.4 and 3.1 all deal with it in some manner.

2.3 was the one they kept putting in the email response but no other ones even mention character names on that front. I do know one of the names he made it the female version of the male name and they made them change that one too. I mean seriously thats just petty as a company.

No-one here can comment further without knowing the names involved. Suffice to say that whenever this topic comes up there's usually a lot of sympathy for the player and criticism of the company until eventually we get to see the name(s) and then it a general "Oh well then, what did you expect"?

As for an official response, all you're likely to get (if anything) is a referral to the ToS which set out the naming policy pretty clearly.

TheShadowScout · August 2019

Huyen wrote: »

Basicly put: you dont own the game. You rent it (like all others from zos these days). So they can force you to anything in theory...

...and will if they even suspect the possibility of a lawsuit.
As in "I saw someone use that name on a game, I feel offended by this blatant misrepresentation of the famous historic person, I will sue ZOS for giving a platform for this..." and so on. And that is why they really don't like too historical names.

Usually they won't just waste their time checking -every- name in the game tho, so... IF they took some action, you can count on someone having made a complaint. Case in point.

Remember, most of the TOS are not there for the players, but for the company. And the player benefit (or deteriment) of it is more like a side effect of the neccessary legal as... uhm... rear-covering neccessary in a world of lawyers and civil lawsuits.

And as has been said... it IS their game, legally, we just rent time on their virtual world. So they make the rules, and it makes no sense to complain - we have three choices, we can stay and follow the rules (and maybe very politely ask if perhaps they might adjust them at times, but cannot expect them to if they don't see the need), we can leave and look for a place with rules more to our liking (not too likely for reasons stated above), or we can break the rules and get thrown out.

Tandor wrote: »

It isn't hard to come up with an original name, there's no reason to set out to name your characters after dead composers or other historical figures...

...and that is still the best option.
Also, if you like a historical figure a lot... its not that hard to make up a fantasy name to pay hommage and yet still clearly not be touching upon any too iffy territory. Luddy Beythoff'n the breton healer. Wol-Moh-Zat the argonian nightblade. Rikard Wagoner the nord DK. Jo'Sa Baxh, redguard necromancer. Krill'paser the khajiit warden. ...and so on...

Huyen · August 2019

unclesheosnephew wrote: »

Huyen wrote: »

Basicly put: you dont own the game. You rent it (like all others from zos these days). So they can force you to anything in theory. And the ToS states you cant use any historical important figures. Funny how they forbid you to partake in conspiracy theories as well...

actually it states you cant use in conjunction with something offensive defamatory or derogatory. And I just come from the line of thought that you stand by your word. In this case the studio didnt. Its a shame they were a nice person, and to the other posters they did it out of respect and it was a homage to the things they did that impacted their life. And what part of this was a conspiracy theory? I was asking for understanding and clarification on something that wasnt correct.

Like I said: we dont own the game, nor the characters we play. So they decide what names we can use. Simple as that. ToS is a ****.

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Huyen wrote: »

Basicly put: you dont own the game. You rent it (like all others from zos these days). So they can force you to anything in theory...

...and will if they even suspect the possibility of a lawsuit.
As in "I saw someone use that name on a game, I feel offended by this blatant misrepresentation of the famous historic person, I will sue ZOS for giving a platform for this..." and so on. And that is why they really don't like too historical names.

Usually they won't just waste their time checking -every- name in the game tho, so... IF they took some action, you can count on someone having made a complaint. Case in point.

Remember, most of the TOS are not there for the players, but for the company. And the player benefit (or deteriment) of it is more like a side effect of the neccessary legal as... uhm... rear-covering neccessary in a world of lawyers and civil lawsuits.

And as has been said... it IS their game, legally, we just rent time on their virtual world. So they make the rules, and it makes no sense to complain - we have three choices, we can stay and follow the rules (and maybe very politely ask if perhaps they might adjust them at times, but cannot expect them to if they don't see the need), we can leave and look for a place with rules more to our liking (not too likely for reasons stated above), or we can break the rules and get thrown out.

Tandor wrote: »

It isn't hard to come up with an original name, there's no reason to set out to name your characters after dead composers or other historical figures...

...and that is still the best option.
Also, if you like a historical figure a lot... its not that hard to make up a fantasy name to pay hommage and yet still clearly not be touching upon any too iffy territory. Luddy Beythoff'n the breton healer. Wol-Moh-Zat the argonian nightblade. Rikard Wagoner the nord DK. Jo'Sa Baxh, redguard necromancer. Krill'paser the khajiit warden. ...and so on...

Wolfgang Amadues Mozart, Pytor Iilych Tchovski(spelling) Vlad Tepes Dracul, Frydrika Francesca Chopin(this one they made them change too), I can remember all of them honestly but no its says in the TOS you cant make things that sound like them either if name changing is the case. He had 8 of them named since day 1 and honestly if they as a company didnt have a problem then they shouldnt now, but anyways I was just curious as to why something like that would happen. And sorry the whole its company their rules is straight bs, there was a time when the customer actually was respected. They wouldnt be a company with out paying customers and thats something many companies forget.

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

talk about a conspiracy theory someone suing them because of a character name. thats a doozy. guess its my age also. things like this did not happen when I was younger.(no I am not saying how old I am)its a shame too see something like this.

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

Tandor wrote: »

unclesheosnephew wrote: »

ZephyrWestwind wrote: »

No one from the studio will respond on the forum to this. It would be allowing for the discussion of disciplinary and that's a no-no.

The best thing for you to do is forget about it and if it does happen to you at some future date, you will then have cause to question support about the action. Then you can accept the decision and change the name or mimic your friend and quit over it. Up to you.

Also 2.3 is not the only section covering names 2.1,2.2,2.4 and 3.1 all deal with it in some manner.

2.3 was the one they kept putting in the email response but no other ones even mention character names on that front. I do know one of the names he made it the female version of the male name and they made them change that one too. I mean seriously thats just petty as a company.

No-one here can comment further without knowing the names involved. Suffice to say that whenever this topic comes up there's usually a lot of sympathy for the player and criticism of the company until eventually we get to see the name(s) and then it a general "Oh well then, what did you expect"?

As for an official response, all you're likely to get (if anything) is a referral to the ToS which set out the naming policy pretty clearly.

that is not clear at all. thats actually poorly worded. plain speak would have been do not use the names of any historical people. see how easy that was?

dtsharples · August 2019

Do what they did with "Meet the Fockers"
Find another person in the world with the same name as the famous person and just say it's named after them instead :P

commodore64 · August 2019

unclesheosnephew wrote: »

Derogatory, defamatory or offensive content used in conjunction with names of famous or important historical, political, religious figures or website URL's are not allowed. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of Yourself or another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. You will not create an account name that is in reference to or contains copyright names, popular characters, or the names of modern era serial killers, individuals or groups who have committed crimes against humanity in the past. You will also refrain from participating in conspiracy theories, misinformation or fallacious comments..

ZOS are clearly alien insurgents trying to prevent us getting to the truth! Mulder!

Uryel · August 2019

There is no end of anime names, numerous variations on Mazakeen (from the Lucifer TV show), countless dirty joke names (though I haven't seen any Hugh Mongus thus far). I've ran into several Gandalfs and Sarumans, Geralts and the whole Merrygold family including twice removed cousins, a few Ciri too. I'm surprised by the rather low amount of Legolas, though.

But hey, let's worry about Chopin and Mozart. I'm sure THEY will sue the company.

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

Uryel wrote: »

There is no end of anime names, numerous variations on Mazakeen (from the Lucifer TV show), countless dirty joke names (though I haven't seen any Hugh Mongus thus far). I've ran into several Gandalfs and Sarumans, Geralts and the whole Merrygold family including twice removed cousins, a few Ciri too. I'm surprised by the rather low amount of Legolas, though.

But hey, let's worry about Chopin and Mozart. I'm sure THEY will sue the company.

Thats actually what I really found interesting about this. You see names that are actually protected by copyright and the ToS specifically states"popular characters" as a no no. But I dont have to like it, I dont have to accept it, I guess that only leaves I just got to walk away

TheShadowScout · August 2019

Uryel wrote: »

There is no end of anime names, numerous variations on Mazakeen (from the Lucifer TV show), countless dirty joke names (though I haven't seen any Hugh Mongus thus far). I've ran into several Gandalfs and Sarumans, Geralts and the whole Merrygold family including twice removed cousins, a few Ciri too. I'm surprised by the rather low amount of Legolas, though.

But hey, let's worry about Chopin and Mozart. I'm sure THEY will sue the company.

Like I said...

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Usually they won't just waste their time checking -every- name in the game tho, so... IF they took some action, you can count on someone having made a complaint.

...and that's usually all there is to it.

BackAndAngry · August 2019

TLDR it’s whatever they want really

Minyassa · August 2019

Sounds like someone hated classical music...or that player. Legally, copying the name of a famous person for use as a hero in an heroic game is not defamatory or derogatory. Also, legally, changing a name to a feminine version of a name, *even if the intent is to replace the original name*, is no longer representing the original name and thus would not be subject to conditions imposed upon the original name. So, yeah. It really looks like someone got irritated for some reason.

Taleof2Cities · August 2019

Minyassa wrote: »

Sounds like someone hated classical music...or that player. Legally, copying the name of a famous person for use as a hero in an heroic game is not defamatory or derogatory. Also, legally, changing a name to a feminine version of a name, *even if the intent is to replace the original name*, is no longer representing the original name and thus would not be subject to conditions imposed upon the original name.

I agree, @Minyassa.

Which gets to the key question ... are these really the names that were banned?

My sixth sense is tingling that they aren’t.

Partially due to the fact the accused player left the game (over a name change).

Partially due to the OP’s @ name.

Raisin · August 2019

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

Sounds like someone hated classical music...or that player. Legally, copying the name of a famous person for use as a hero in an heroic game is not defamatory or derogatory. Also, legally, changing a name to a feminine version of a name, *even if the intent is to replace the original name*, is no longer representing the original name and thus would not be subject to conditions imposed upon the original name.

I agree, @Minyassa.

Which gets to the key question ... are these really the names that were banned?

My sixth sense is tingling that they aren’t.

Partially due to the fact the accused player left the game (over a name change).

Partially due to the OP’s @ name.

Considering that OPs friend actually posted about this exact issue on the forums back when it happened, and it's been quite a bit... I'm inclined to believe them. The stories are consistent and it doesn't feel like they're trying to stir up drama.

starkerealm · August 2019

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

Someone actually read the TOS?

A couple times, yes. I might not have read the most recent update of it, I'm unsure.

rfennell_ESO · August 2019

The problem with reporting names is it's always arbitrary how customer service will interpret a report.

If someone is keen on reporting and reporting, eventually they will find someone that agrees.

Ackwalan · August 2019

In the case of using a name of a person, living or dead, ZOS is protecting themselves. For example, some player is using the name of a politician, the real person finds out about it, who are they going to sue, some kid or ZOS? You would be surprised how far some people will go to protect their name or trademark.

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

Sounds like someone hated classical music...or that player. Legally, copying the name of a famous person for use as a hero in an heroic game is not defamatory or derogatory. Also, legally, changing a name to a feminine version of a name, *even if the intent is to replace the original name*, is no longer representing the original name and thus would not be subject to conditions imposed upon the original name.

I agree, @Minyassa.

Which gets to the key question ... are these really the names that were banned?

My sixth sense is tingling that they aren’t.

Partially due to the fact the accused player left the game (over a name change).

Partially due to the OP’s @ name.

you could always ask the other people in the guild they were in. a guild they founded. the reason was that was the straw that broke the camels back. the names chosen had meaning. may not have noticed they had some of those names since launch. somethings hold meaning to people. my forum name has nothing to do with what I would do or say as a person. This really opened my eyes to the companies treatment towards people. heck your forum name on its own is copyright protected I bet and nothing is said. other names I found out were Emily Dickinson, Sofia Villani Scicolone, Ludwig Van Beethoven, Gary Larson,(This one would be questionable), Jane Van Lanwick-Goodall,(the other one the they admitted would have). These were all people he admired for what they contributed to society.

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

In the case of using a name of a person, living or dead, ZOS is protecting themselves. For example, some player is using the name of a politician, the real person finds out about it, who are they going to sue, some kid or ZOS? You would be surprised how far some people will go to protect their name or trademark.

Then they need to specify in the ToS, and not sure how people dead(some 400+ years) are going to sue

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

Sounds like someone hated classical music...or that player. Legally, copying the name of a famous person for use as a hero in an heroic game is not defamatory or derogatory. Also, legally, changing a name to a feminine version of a name, *even if the intent is to replace the original name*, is no longer representing the original name and thus would not be subject to conditions imposed upon the original name.

I agree, @Minyassa.

Which gets to the key question ... are these really the names that were banned?

My sixth sense is tingling that they aren’t.

Partially due to the fact the accused player left the game (over a name change).

Partially due to the OP’s @ name.

oh and it was 16 names that had to be changed no a name change

Ackwalan · August 2019

unclesheosnephew wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

In the case of using a name of a person, living or dead, ZOS is protecting themselves. For example, some player is using the name of a politician, the real person finds out about it, who are they going to sue, some kid or ZOS? You would be surprised how far some people will go to protect their name or trademark.

Then they need to specify in the ToS, and not sure how people dead(some 400+ years) are going to sue

Somebody owns that dead person's name, and have a copyright for everything about them.

unclesheosnephew · August 2019

I actually researched a few of them. the composers no, the name Vlad Tepes Dracul no. I bet on some of the names ZoS had to find out if who the name belonged to.(They liked the full names or original names if possible.)