vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

So what are the variables that need to change?

Well, lowering the number of mechanics you have to play and increasing reaction times would be very helpful.

Some mechanics require you to act instantly. There's no margin of error. You have to react really fast. And then there are mechanics like Blessed Crucible, the fire damage from the last boss is for many a one-shot, too. But you get an animation and then time to avoid the fire. You've got time to react.

The other variable would be the amount of mechanics you have to play. Just look at Scalecaller HM. You've got Zaan, you've got the kiting, the ice and you've good to get your safe spot, of which are four and two of them must not be activated in advance, because you'd miss them when you need them. So, there's a lot going on! No, let's compare City of Ash 2. Yeah, there's a little dps race as a whole and there are those atro's. Oh, and you have to jump to another platform in the right moment. Not only are the mechanics easier to understand (some platforms sourrounded by lava are easier to understand than any of Scalecallers boss mechanics), they are less.

So when they plan a dlc dungeon, instead of 5 mechanics maybe just use 3. And instead of mechanics which require you to react within 1 second, let us react to them in 3 seconds.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

One of the things I find difficult is the question of how to design these easier dungeons. Dungeon design is something ESO already struggles with... Players are always aiming to do things in the most efficient way -- as they should -- and ZOS struggles to keep us in line. What I mean here is the constant striving to bypass mechanics, and our DPS obsession. To combat this, ESO has a tendency to just give us one-shots to 'force' us into respecting a mechanic. This unfortunately creates a very steep difficulty curve for casual players and groups; while it may be my cup of tea, it's too big of a jump for casuals to get the feeling of progression within these fights. They go from stand where you want, do what you want, to wiping very hard and very fast.

Anyway, all of that probably seems like an irrelevant tangent, but the point is this: Easier dungeons are a great idea, but they should still be engaging and have mechanics that change up our gameplay style a little. They shouldn't be easy just because they're the same stack and burn fights with different graphics.
Since DLC dungeons are generally more mechanic-heavy but are seemingly too difficult for many groups, we need to figure out how to create that middle ground first. Because I don't think making less intricate and well-designed dungeons available on purpose is a step ESO should be taking.
So what are the variables that need to change? If we lower enemy damage output for instance, how will we pressure players into doing mechanics? They need a reason to do them -- the current system is threat of failure. To harsh for a casual dungeon. If we make the bosses too easily killed, people will use DPS to break the system (or at best, create a very annoying fight where damage is too high and phases come so fast it's unenjoyable.) How much skill-based challenge can we ask from our played to create a feeling of learning and improving, without alienating less skilled players?
Obviously all of this goes into the proceed behind any dungeon, but IMO this is a particularly tricky nut to crack. You are looking for a dungeon that's hard to lose, but still satisfying to win; offering a low amount for chances of failure, while still engaging players by making them require to accomplish things. They can't be easy because they're bland and boring, please.

I think we are at a point where two difficulties are not enough. Usually when I say that, I'm thinking of a higher tier than vet, full dungeon HMs, etc., but that's not the only neglected group of players. I believe the reason a lot of people get so turned off by vet dungeons they can't beat is because they don't know where else to go. It's easy for us to say a person isn't ready for vet -- but often those same people HAVE outgrown normal. They do too much damage and take too little. They're done with normal and everything tells them they belong in vet now. So normal isn't satisfying anymore, but vet is too out of reach. But I don't know, maybe I'm overestimating this specific problem.

I'm also super tired and it's 5am, so sorry if I'm not making much sense.

I think that just throwing a little bit less stuff at players is enough. Take the Wolfhunter dungeons, for examples... There are just so many mechanics at the same time sometimes that it creates a lot of the difficulty of the dungeon. Then you add the damage that almost always is a one shot and this makes it even harder.

My main example would be CoA II. It is still puggable, but it is challenging for most non-optimal groups. The Fire Maw is always a struggle, the Titan requires the tank to know what he is doing and the last boss on HM needs good DPS.

Again, not impossible, but not a walk in the park either for the average player.

The DLC dungeons throws too many things at once at the players and are very unforgiving on the damage side.

This may be a horrible mess of a post, but my reply really fits both of you so yeah.

I guess that may be where I lose touch with this side of the playerbase. The Wolfhunter dungeons are some of the good ones, with nice and creative mechanics. COA2 has pretty much none -- it also suffers the same fate of having its few mechanics killed by DPS. The one thing I definitely don't agree is that the way to easy yet enjoyable dungeons is less mechanic/playing around with gameplay. That would be a shame! I'm more inclined to agree that the damage output is the issue -- which is why one of my main points was the question of how ZOS can enforce mechanic playing without having to use high damage as leverage.

I think the reaction times are a brilliant point, and get to the core of the issue. O e of the reasons it's often hard or unenjoyable to even understand mechanics is because you just keep wiping. For many this means having to find a (potentially not intuitive) solution to a situation OUTSIDE the situation. As opposed to being able to do it inside the situation, perhaps with the chance to experiment until you crack the code. Ideally, the difference here would be that failure in vet (people choosing challenge) would cost you your life, while the normal version instead just costs you time
Of course all of this also comes back to the concept of how ZOS tries to teach us mechanics in the first place. While a lot of them come easily to me (and many others) these days, that's because of our understanding. We know our options, and we often understand the visual clues of certain effects. It is my understanding that many people feel DLC dungeons require them to basically look up the solution. They do usually teach you boss mechanics during mobs, but those are easily ignored. NPC cues I personally miss all the time.
The amount of mechanics is probably also a good point, although I find your examples horrible. xD City of Ash 2 really cannot have it's features called mechanics IMO, and Scalecaller HM I think is a bad comparison because it's a vet HMm It's supposed to be a challenge. It's a good example of what you don't want, I think, but you can really only compare the non-HM/normal version if you're talking about easier content. By which I mean, is normal SCP okay? Or does that also not hit the mark for you? I think it's a better starting point there, as it will be easier to find the problems in the dungeon variant more closely to what you're looking for (using you generally btw). Keep in mind that I'm really trying to find a point where a dungeon can be enjoyed by both sides, depending on the mode.
Perhaps it's also about slower introduction of mechanics throughout the fight? It seems like being sorta overwhelmed and asked to deal with a bunch of things you don't understand is also what ruins it for people. I believe that these same people genuinely would enjoy these mechanics more if they were intuitive and solving them felt good, as opposed to feeling like you have to perform an arbitrary task with seemingly no explanation.

Edit: As opposed to COA2 though, I know I have always thoroughly enjoyed COH2 and DC2. The shielded boss in the latter now annoys me, but I love the last boss. Having to kill the alits at the same time also seems like a nice enforced but not punishing mechanic?Snd now I'm also thinking if the Cerunnos boss in Falkreath -- perhaps with less damage taken, the carrying of their souls (and generally speaking, giving players tasks that are not DPSing but rather interacting with the environment) also seems reasonable.
With COH2, obviously the one shot from a bad roll won't work for an easier experience. What if I stead she knocked you off the platform if you fail and you had to find your way back up? Does that work? Or imagine the AOEs being holes instead, which makes it intuitive to avoid them and why. I'm still in this track because I think 'let people try the mechanic again without dying and having to start over' is important. Also I imagine the HM mechanic (as in BC2) would also be nice in normal. You don't have to worry about dying to the mobs like in BC2 because they hit hard; rather they are so squishy you have to be careful to keep them alive. More about coordination than anything else.

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

They're completely puggable, I pugged them all. But yes, half of the time people leave instantly. Adding easier versions is not the right way to fix this. Instead, we need better rewards for doing DLC dungeons. Like some Transmute Crystals maybe.

I pugged Fang Lair Challenger.

What a coincidence, so did i.

Also guys, wtf are you even discussing, with the broken aoe and staff below average groups has no way to complete them, it ain't a learning curve to learn broken mechanics and bosses. After zos fixes the dungeons, then, we can think of something.

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

So what are the variables that need to change?

Well, lowering the number of mechanics you have to play and increasing reaction times would be very helpful.

Some mechanics require you to act instantly. There's no margin of error. You have to react really fast. And then there are mechanics like Blessed Crucible, the fire damage from the last boss is for many a one-shot, too. But you get an animation and then time to avoid the fire. You've got time to react.

The other variable would be the amount of mechanics you have to play. Just look at Scalecaller HM. You've got Zaan, you've got the kiting, the ice and you've good to get your safe spot, of which are four and two of them must not be activated in advance, because you'd miss them when you need them. So, there's a lot going on! No, let's compare City of Ash 2. Yeah, there's a little dps race as a whole and there are those atro's. Oh, and you have to jump to another platform in the right moment. Not only are the mechanics easier to understand (some platforms sourrounded by lava are easier to understand than any of Scalecallers boss mechanics), they are less.

So when they plan a dlc dungeon, instead of 5 mechanics maybe just use 3. And instead of mechanics which require you to react within 1 second, let us react to them in 3 seconds.

Have you ever took any consideration that in those one second mechanics lag takes over that one second and you never see the mechanic coming

Calm_Fury wrote: »

You misuderstood me.

I do not think we should not get hard content or the current vet should be made easier. I'm fine with that.

What I don't like is having ONLY really hard stuff as new content.

As I said, I do all DLC dungeons and actually am in the process of forming a group to tackle ALL 4-man achievements.

Still, I'd like some less-stressful content now and again too.

Normal is not the answer. It is too easy and not at all what I want or suggested.

I sincerely respect your opinion, @Calm_Fury. Your ideas are well-thought out and clear.

But, I disagree.

DLC Dungeons already have three (3) modes ... outlined by most of the forum-goers here: Normal, Vet, and Vet HM.

If you can’t PUG a DLC dungeon on normal for a “less stressful” run, then then only option is to ignore the group finder and find a pre-made.

ZOS isn’t going to make a “DLC Light” Dungeon to accommodate PUG groups ... mainly due to the fact that the content should continue to be progressive to challenge players. Not the other way around.

Though you’re not saying it in exact words, some other posters here are advocating an easier Vet DLC dungeon without mention of any change in rewards. That’s also a bad idea.

There are a lot of forums threads complaining about PUG groups in Vet DLC Dungeons ... and complaining about Vet DLC Dungeons coming up in the Random Vet pool. All of these issues are solved by not using the group finder to PUG. I’m having a difficult time trying to separate this discussion from those threads.