Talos, apparently.

Llidoryc wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Talos, apparently.

that would explain how he was able to ascend to godhood being born a mortal

also, that is quite a feat considering that most aedra couldnt even achieve it

Talos for sure and I suspect Arden-Sul has achieved it too. Vivec obviously has achieved CHIM.
Arden-Sul was considered the God of the shivering isles since hes a seperate entity from Sheogorath possibly a mantler like the Hero of Kvatch was. But was remembered while being treated like a separate entity which would require CHIM I believe to accomplish otherwise he would just be Sheogorath and not Arden-Sul the God of the Isles. Talos would just be Lorkhan had a peice of him not been a CHIMster.
So CHIM Allows a being to exist independently from whatever they mantle. Without it, basically you would see a merging of two beings into the mantled being like we did with the Hero of Kvatch when he became Sheogorath.

Bruccius wrote: »

Vivec is the only one who we can, pretty much, gaurantee has achieved it. Though even there we should remain sceptical, considering the only source we have on his CHIM are his own words.

@Thevampirenight
Talos' CHIM is actually still up to interpetation, and not set in stone. Talos being Lorkhan is not really supported in the lore.

Actually it is, Talos is said to take the place of Lorkhan and became the Ninth Divine within the eight Pantheon.
He is a weird being, basically formed of three differant people. Hjalti Early-Beard, Ysmir Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus.
The freedom of the Underking within the Daggerfall Dragonbreak. Basically is what finished the Divinity of Talos as before then he didn't exist. This caused Time to be Altered and Talos became the Ninth Divine taking the empty place where Lorkhan use to be in the process. Talos is also the reason why the jungles of Cyrodiil went bye bye. He loved his legions so much he erased the jungle swamp away. From all Time. But the memory of them is still there and there is a instance where you can travel to the jungled version within Eso. But yeah the Jungles are gone because they were CHIMed Away.
Bethesda did use part or half of mks obscure writing many headed talos within Skyrim https://www.imperial-library.info/content/many-it might be familiar if you listened to the preacher in Whiterun at the Shrine of Talos. This comes from the many headed Talos.

And after the throne of Alinor did finally break at the feet of Men, and news of it came to the Dragon Emperor in Cyrodiil, he gathered his captains and spoke to them, saying:

"'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Heimskr Quotes this

"But you were once man! Aye! And as man, you said, "Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you." [note 1].

The exact words from Many Headed Talos. So Bethesda liked it enough to use it. He reshaped the land by the power of royality which is CHIM As CHIM is a form of royality.

Bruccius wrote: »

@Thevampirenight
Problem is that the source you used is not part of the lore, it's unofficial. The part regarding the jungles is specifically left out in Heimskr's sermon, this is no mere coincidence. The only source in-universe which even implies Talos' CHIM is Mankar Camoran's Commentaries, but even that isn't clear-cut.

ESO provides its own - more logical - explanation as to why Cyrodiil isn't a jungle, revolving around the Towers. Shezarr was never one of the Eight Divines, and the fact that Talos and Lorkhan, Shezarr and Tiber Septim, Ysmir and Shor, are all seperated shows that they are not one and the same.

Hmm I thought I copied and pasted that quote from the wiki itself. My bad. But basically yes he does mention the exact line. From many headed talos. The Talos fanatics words lack saying the jungle part but says everything else beyond that line. Also there is the undisputed fact that Cyrodiil was all jungle in arena and possibly Daggerfall. Dragonbreaks don't alter the present they alter the past too. When Talos reshapes the land. Maybe he used the Towers to do it. As one has to sit in the tower for Chim to work, as that is how one can see beyond the wheel. And learn the secret of I like Lorkhan Did. So there is no doubt that towers are involved. Sitting in the Tower is what makes CHIM Possible.

@Bruccius

Ohhh i love these lore conversations, they are so interesting! Especially ones concerning Talos!

As to the question of Talos achieving CHIM or not, we have 3 In-game sources that confirm Talos did indeed achieve CHIM.

1. Heimsker quotes parts of the "Many Headed Talos" in the Elder Scrolls Skyrim. The key quote being:

"But you were once man! Aye! And as man, you said, 'Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter.' 'I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.

They key part to look at is "Breath now in Royalty" and "Reshape this land which is mine"

Now the very definition of CHIM is "The secret syllable of Royalty" Which is defined as quoted from the 36 Lessons of Vivec Chapter 12:

" 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty."

The Voice (Thu'um) has the power to also reshape land as quoted from the Ancient Tablets on the 10,000 steps to High Hrothgar:

"For the Voice could blot out the sky and flood the
land."

So we can imagine what is possible when CHIM is combined with the power of the Voice.

2. We know Talos achieved CHIM and became a God because the blood on the Armor of Tiber Septim in Oblivion satisfies the requirement of the "Blood of a God" to open the path to Mankar Cameron's Paradise via the Mysterium Xarxes. This proves without a doubt that Talos achived CHIM/Goodhood and replaced Lorhkan in the divinity.

3. Mankar Cameron confirms that Talos achieved CHIM and changed Cyrodiil in the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book Three and i quote:

"CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled."

Many argue Mankar Cameron isn't a reliable source because of all the errors in his speech in Oblivion, but Mankar Cameron made those errors ON PURPOSE to confuse and chip away at the COC resolve. Those errors were 100% intentional by Cameron on his desire to mislead the hero.

Mankar Cameron is the direct descendant of Cameron The Usurper and his Mistress. Of course we know them to be Bosmer, yet Mankar Cameron is an Altmer in Oblivion and he can also wear the Amulet of Kings.

This because Mehrunes Dagon helped Mankar Cameron not only change himself from a Bosmer to an Altmer, but he also helped make Mankar a Dragonborn. This is also confirmed in Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book One:

"Offering myself to that daybreak allowed the girdle of grace to contain me. When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire."

This confirms he was able to speak the Dragon Language with no prior training at all, and after 3 days learned the Fire Breath shout speaking in a language not of his own. This is proof Dagon changed him into a Dragonborn, and considering Dagon's sphere of influence is Change, Destruction, Revolution,Energy, and Ambition this is within his sphere on influence to do. This is why Mankar was able to wear the Amulet of Kings and able to speak the dragon language and use the Voice with no training. Considering Cameron was changed from a Bosmer to an Altmer and made Dragonborn by Dagon, I find him a very reliable source.

4. We know Talos achived CHIM and God Hood because he gives the player the "Blessing of Talos" in Oblivion Knights of the Nine quest line allowing the Champion to defeat Umaril for good. The prophet is actually Talos in disguise an avatar of him. As who else could bless someone with the Blessing of Talos power? This is very heavily inferred, and he vanishes after Umaril is defeated.

Conclusion:

ESO's explanation of the condition of Cyrodiil is not wrong either though. Since Talos doesn't exist this far into the past, it would be impossible for the researchers during the Interregnum to know why Cyrodiil is the way it is, So they just assume that White Gold Tower is the cause, and that's not wrong. Talos used CHIM + The Voice to force White Gold Tower to reshape Cyrodiil and change its climate, but since Talos was in CHIM he also made that change retro active across the timeline. So there are people who remembered Cyrodiil being a jungle, it was even wrote about, but they didn't really know why it changed overnight.Memories can't be wiped out though. In the past since Talos hadn't been born yet, they couldn't credit him with it, but folks in the future know it was Talos who changed Cyrodiil.

I hope this makes sense. TES Lore is very complicated. Talos himself is made up of 3 people, well after the events of Skyrim 4 since the Last Dragonborn becomes part of the Talos Oversoul as he is the only other person in history besides Talos himself to survive being spoken to by the Greybeards, and the only other person in history to have the title "Stormcrown".

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM#cite_note-36L12-2
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_12
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:High_Hrothgar#Etched_Tablets
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterium_Xarxes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mehrunes_Dagon
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Blessing_of_Talos

Essentially, we as the players have achieved CHIM.

Didn't they say achieving CHIM essentially means you've realized the God Head's Dream and zero summed yourself from reality? If Vivec did so he shouldn't remain, and besides he's not a "true" God, he's only a poser utilizing the power of the Heart of Lorkhan.

Also I'm not saying this because I believe it, the God Head theory is crap.

Xaramasa wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Hold up. What proof do we have that Vivec has achieved CHIM?

Sermon 12, where Molag Bal teaches the god the secret syllable of royalty. Vivec is the author though, so we don't have any way to prove that he actually achieved CHIM. A lorebuddy of mine told me that Sermon 19, especially the last parts, imply that while he knowns how to CHIM, he hasn't actually achieved it yet by the time he's written the sermon.

Then there's the Trial of Vivec, but that's an out-of-canon text.

As Sotha Sil said:

""Vivec knows the boundaries that separate fact from fiction. He knows them so well that's he's learned how to break them. He exists inside his verse, but recognizes the lies. The contradictions.
He both does, and does not believe his own tales.""

We cannot prove nor disprove anything Vivec does, even CHIM.

That's exactly my point though. Vivec is lying all the time to make himself bigger than he is. Wouldn't be surprised if he lied about CHIM too.

AnomanderisPurake wrote: »

As Sotha Sil has said, Vicec understands the boundaries between fact and fiction so well that he is able to change reality itself to to conform to his lies while he himself remains aware of the fact that they were, initially, lies that he himself had spoken. One can infer this to mean that Vivec has achieved CHIM. Also wasn't there some lore on how Vivec allowed Molag Bal to *** him? This somehow had Molag Bal favouring Vicec with knowledge of CHIM.

Sil's words most probably just mean that Vivec's lies are so good you can't distinguish them from reality. If Vehk had some reality altering superpower, the Vvardenfell main quest would not have happened.
Even assuming that Vivec's marriage with Molag Bal was not another lie, knowing about CHIM doesn't mean you automatically get it.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Bruccius

Ohhh i love these lore conversations, they are so interesting! Especially ones concerning Talos!

As to the question of Talos achieving CHIM or not, we have 3 In-game sources that confirm Talos did indeed achieve CHIM.

1. Heimsker quotes parts of the "Many Headed Talos" in the Elder Scrolls Skyrim. The key quote being:

"But you were once man! Aye! And as man, you said, 'Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter.' 'I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.

They key part to look at is "Breath now in Royalty" and "Reshape this land which is mine"

Now the very definition of CHIM is "The secret syllable of Royalty" Which is defined as quoted from the 36 Lessons of Vivec Chapter 12:

" 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty."

The Voice (Thu'um) has the power to also reshape land as quoted from the Ancient Tablets on the 10,000 steps to High Hrothgar:

"For the Voice could blot out the sky and flood the
land."

So we can imagine what is possible when CHIM is combined with the power of the Voice.

2. We know Talos achieved CHIM and became a God because the blood on the Armor of Tiber Septim in Oblivion satisfies the requirement of the "Blood of a God" to open the path to Mankar Cameron's Paradise via the Mysterium Xarxes. This proves without a doubt that Talos achived CHIM/Goodhood and replaced Lorhkan in the divinity.

3. Mankar Cameron confirms that Talos achieved CHIM and changed Cyrodiil in the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book Three and i quote:

"CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled."

Many argue Mankar Cameron isn't a reliable source because of all the errors in his speech in Oblivion, but Mankar Cameron made those errors ON PURPOSE to confuse and chip away at the COC resolve. Those errors were 100% intentional by Cameron on his desire to mislead the hero.

Mankar Cameron is the direct descendant of Cameron The Usurper and his Mistress. Of course we know them to be Bosmer, yet Mankar Cameron is an Altmer in Oblivion and he can also wear the Amulet of Kings.

This because Mehrunes Dagon helped Mankar Cameron not only change himself from a Bosmer to an Altmer, but he also helped make Mankar a Dragonborn. This is also confirmed in Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book One:

"Offering myself to that daybreak allowed the girdle of grace to contain me. When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire."

This confirms he was able to speak the Dragon Language with no prior training at all, and after 3 days learned the Fire Breath shout speaking in a language not of his own. This is proof Dagon changed him into a Dragonborn, and considering Dagon's sphere of influence is Change, Destruction, Revolution,Energy, and Ambition this is within his sphere on influence to do. This is why Mankar was able to wear the Amulet of Kings and able to speak the dragon language and use the Voice with no training. Considering Cameron was changed from a Bosmer to an Altmer and made Dragonborn by Dagon, I find him a very reliable source.

4. We know Talos achived CHIM and God Hood because he gives the player the "Blessing of Talos" in Oblivion Knights of the Nine quest line allowing the Champion to defeat Umaril for good. The prophet is actually Talos in disguise an avatar of him. As who else could bless someone with the Blessing of Talos power? This is very heavily inferred, and he vanishes after Umaril is defeated.

Conclusion:

ESO's explanation of the condition of Cyrodiil is not wrong either though. Since Talos doesn't exist this far into the past, it would be impossible for the researchers during the Interregnum to know why Cyrodiil is the way it is, So they just assume that White Gold Tower is the cause, and that's not wrong. Talos used CHIM + The Voice to force White Gold Tower to reshape Cyrodiil and change its climate, but since Talos was in CHIM he also made that change retro active across the timeline. So there are people who remembered Cyrodiil being a jungle, it was even wrote about, but they didn't really know why it changed overnight.Memories can't be wiped out though. In the past since Talos hadn't been born yet, they couldn't credit him with it, but folks in the future know it was Talos who changed Cyrodiil.

I hope this makes sense. TES Lore is very complicated. Talos himself is made up of 3 people, well after the events of Skyrim 4 since the Last Dragonborn becomes part of the Talos Oversoul as he is the only other person in history besides Talos himself to survive being spoken to by the Greybeards, and the only other person in history to have the title "Stormcrown".

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM#cite_note-36L12-2
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_12
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:High_Hrothgar#Etched_Tablets
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterium_Xarxes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mehrunes_Dagon
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Blessing_of_Talos

Apologies for my rather late response, being on holiday tends to come in the way of other hobbies.

1. Regarding the Heimskr quote.
Yes, Heimskr does indeed say that Talos ''reshaped the land in royalty'', the problem is that Bethesda pretty clearly left out the specific part relating to the jungles. If they wanted this to be used as a way to prove Talos did, in fact, remove the jungles of Cyrodiil, why would they leave that out? As it stand right now, reshaping the land in royalty can also be meant figuratively; Tiber Septim rebuilding Tamriel (reshape the land) as its Emperor (royalty) from the Tiber Wars.

2. Talos being a Divine is not the same as him being Lorkhan. Had Talos mantled Lorkhan, we wouldn't be having two seperate deities known as ''Talos'' and ''Lorkhan'', there'd only be Lorkhan. Just like how when the Hero of Kvatch mantled Sheogorath there didn't come another being into place known as the ''Hero of Kvatch'', The point of mantling is taking over the place of a deity by becoming said deity. The fact that Talos and Lorkhan are seperated in the pantheons of Tamriel shows this cannot be the case.

3. Mankar Camoran being a descendant of the Camoran Usurper is a theory, but not one which I supported, considering Tar-Meena states, and I quote: ''The supposed leader of the Mythic Dawn cult. He wrote the infamous "Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes." The "Commentaries" are contemporary with Tiber Septim, over 400 years ago. So he is unlikely to still be alive, although you never know."

Of course, this would make Mankar's Commentaries appear more valid regarding the ''home of the Red King once jungled'', but do not forget that Tiber Septim was not born in Cyrodiil, as such, can Cyrodiil really be considered his home? Perhaps it's the home of Alessia or Reman, perhaps one of them achieved CHIM? Do not forget that Reman Cyrodiil also became a deity in the Imperial Pantheon. Though to be fair, this is the most pressing evidence linking Talos to CHIM and reshaping Cyrodiil. As for the Dragonborn ordeal; I doubt Dagon played a role there. Being Dragonborn or not is within the sphere of power of the Divines, specifically Akatosh, it's a sub-aedric soul (dragon soul) which is given to a mortal. I cannot imagine a Daedric Prince having the power to get their hands on Aedric magics.

4. Him being a Divine and him having achieved CHIM are not things that are necessary to go hand in hand. The former is canon, the latter is still implied, but not confirmed.