I think you missed the point so here ill list out the unique buffs/debuffs from each class.
Nb: minor savegry
Templar: minor sorcery
Sorc: minor prophecy
Warden: minor toughness
Necro: major vulnerability
Dk: minor brutality AND engulfing flames debuff.

Why is dk the only class that gets 2? Why is it the only class that buffs both mag and stam dps?
Im fine with each class giving one minor buff to the group but i think major vulnerability and engulfing flames are too strong compared to the buffs that other classes have access to. At the very least a necro can only apply major vulnerability for 5 seconds and it costs an ultimate to use. Dk can keep up engulfing flames the entire fight for a pure 10% damage buff to all flame abilities. How is that fair when they already get minor brutality?

Are you familiar with the mending set? If a group wants an aoe weakening debuff they can use that set. Point is there are options. If a group wants engulfing the only option is dk. If a group wants major vulnerability necro is the only option. I suggested earlier that engulfing flames debuff should be added to the other morph of ele drain and there should be some kind of undaunted ultimate that can also apply major vulnerability. Minor toughness can be added back to war horn and wardens can get a real passive to help the group rather than just taking a buff away from every other class and giving it to warden and calling them special.

The new nb aoe weakening debuff is an actual joke.

I Dont think dk needs a nerf at all though

I think the whole point is missing.

DK tanks are using engulfing flames because there are no mDK (they should be using it) around.

1 mDK in a dungeon group would make all tanks the same (in this regard only OC).
2 in a trial group when/if said group needs to split (HR, MOL, HOF etc.)

IMHO the "real" problem is mDK are NOT around so the tank has to put engulfing himself.

Why are there so little mDK?

this is the real question and the answer it's 'cause they are not as good as other classes when it comes to DPS.

Should they give some buff to mDK in PVE things would be different in this as well.

TL;DR: Engulfing is fine. Give classes identity, unique group benefits, and buff MagDK so people will use them in end-game content.

Iron_Blurr, first you talk about from a tank perspective and then talk about class buffs/debuffs that wouldn't necessarily be coming from a tank. Then you downplay another significant contribution NB (arguably the best tanks this patch) will be providing next patch. So, my response will be based on the group benefits, as a whole.

If you're looking at specific skills, please don't look at them in a vacuum, think about how they work together as a package for the class and the group.

Noldornir has hit the nail on the head for why DK tanks bother with engulfing - there are few, if any, MagDKs in endgame content because their DPS is terrible. DK tanks would be happy to drop engulfing for another skill, and then be like any other tank, except slightly subpar to NBs in some content.

There are benefits to each class in a group that aren't just based on buffs/debuffs, of which you missed a few that are difficult to find outside of each class.

Group Benefits:

-If it's difficult content and you want fast resurrections, you want Templars for the faster rezzes and full health when rezzed or Necromancers with their insane ultgen and Rez ult.
-If you want synergies for Alkosh, for extra damage, for certain new sets, or for every sane person with Undaunted passives, every Mag class (except for NB and DK) and StamNecro offer easily accessible synergies. This is another area where DK fails, how many non-tank DKs are going to be using talons/morphs or dropping those standards on a regular basis outside of PvP? Same with NB and their synergisable ults. Stam can slot either their mag-counterpart synergies, Undaunted skills, or just be happy with their dps advantage for the group.
(copied:)
-NB: minor savagery, best current cc in game atm with Aspect of Terror/Morphs/'Fear', best pvp bombers, best mob-skippers in dungeons, best NB-hunters, Soul Shred/morphs (PVP)
-Templar: minor sorcery, minor Breach and Fracture, major maim (insanely useful in pvp along with the Nova bomb), group purify(purge) in-class, Remembrance (PVP-loved)
-Sorc: minor prophecy, Major Berserk 25% for synergizer + Atro, minor intellect if they choose to run emp. ward, NEGATE (though Earthgore does some similar duties)
-Warden: minor toughness, PVP amazing ult in Permafrost, group Major Resolve/Ward (for those groupmembers too lazy/forgetful to cast their own/claim they need the bar space for something else), Frozen Gate moves friends and foes for great usefulness esp. in PVP, minor intellect/endurance, STAM HEALER
-Necro: major vulnerability, minor vulnerability in-class!, minor protection for the group, major fracture/breach in an aoe, OFF-BALANCE on demand (, is the Necro purge for the group?)
-DK: minor brutality AND engulfing flames debuff. (PVP: Standard)

You say you don't want to see DKs nerfed, but that's what I think your thread is about, is to nerf a class that isn't at the top and make classes more identical, especially when tanking.

If you want the meta tank for the time being, make a NB tank.

TL;DR: Engulfing is fine. Give classes identity, unique group benefits, and buff MagDK so people will use them in end-game content.

Look it's simple.. The 10% bonus poison damage effect is on a set. Why is the fire one limited to one class? Im asking for it to be made available to other classes not for a nerf to dk. Oh and to the people talking about nb tank being meta that's only for vSs on main tank. And that's for no other reason than the minor savegry is needed in a full stamcro dps group. Dk tank is also ran in the group for the minor brutality.

Also to everyone saying not to make this debuff accessible to other classes because that is somehow a nerf to mag that's simply not true. If anything mag would have that debuff up in more situations not less. If you are upset about the state of magdk im with you, they need a buff. But this thread is about pve tanking. So i quite frankly dont care about anything not pertaining to the topic.
The facts are that mag is still the dominant spec of choice in places like vCr+3 and vAs+2. In those situations ranged mag dps are preferred and so the engulfing flames debuff is often desired for groups. I dont think its fair that only one class can provide that debuff. And to any people saying that a magdk can run engulfing as a mag dk in vAs+2 i would ask them to try it and see how bad the uptime is. In situational trials like that it sucks that dk is pigeon holed into being the tank and the group has to sacrifice a lot of damage to run any other tank class since all the dps are ranged and mag with flame staves.

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

The facts are that mag is still the dominant spec of choice in places like vCr+3 and vAs+2. In those situations ranged mag dps are preferred and so the engulfing flames debuff is often desired for groups. I dont think its fair that only one class can provide that debuff. And to any people saying that a magdk can run engulfing as a mag dk in vAs+2 i would ask them to try it and see how bad the uptime is.

So the problem is that the skill engulfing flames (on a tank) is OP in some (2) circumstances?
What about the other 99% instances where a mDK would keep a BETTER uptime than a tank? (Yes you don't want to barswap regardless of what's happening. It's better to loose some seconds of engulfing than to miss a crucial block).
In vHR a mDK would do it better
in vAA i'm not wasting breath on axes but a mDK could do it on the mage, reflections and even atronach on HM.

These are differences in classes, this is one of them;

-DKs breath fire
-Necros mess with death n ress ppl
-Templars have a built-in HoT/purge that can serve the team and also happens to be very cheap (while purge is not)
-Wardens gives max-health to the group

etc.

This is good if you ask me because it drives a group into mixing classes/roles and, again, the only reason DK tanks use EF is 'cause there are usually 2 types of DKs welcome in a trial:

1) Tank
2) StamDD (which will have the other morph)

Any tankDK with his mental sanity WILL gladly drop/replace the skill if he see a pal mDK around already doing that.

What you want for EF is a DK with the magicka not a tank. You just "using" the tank 'cause he's the only one around.

I'm ready to bet whatever you want that:

IF mDK should be buffed to be on par with others mDD

THEN we would start to see more mDK in trials group

HENCE the DK tank meta would change swapping EF for something else

but as long as mDK= lowish DPS you bring in some other (if you can choose) DD and you WILL want that particular buff

TL;DR

Class balance does not means "class does not matter" (if this were the case there would be no point in having classes besde name and animations) it means that "any class can provide the same amount of utility".

This "utility" comes in form of buffs/debuffs/particular skills that said classes can apply.

You are having a "hard" time as a non-DK-tank NOT because DK-tank provides better debuff than you do but just because the tank is probably gonna be the only DK around while other classes "utility skills" are already running on the group.

The problems with the dk class as a whole go deeper than people think. Buffing magdk wouldn't solve the issue of engulfing still being a tank skill because mag dk will still be weaker than stam dps. The issue is that mag dk is typically a melee mag dps and so it competes for melee spots with stam dps. These days even ranged spots are being given to stam dps running bow bow. Engulfing also has other issues like if you are a magdk in group and have a dk tank, the tanks engulfing will override the dps engulfing and lower their dps. The engulfing flames debuff has always been problematic in pve scenarios.