Stop balancing PVE for PVP

washbern · July 2019

ZOS should stop trying to balance the game to work for both PVE and PVP and instead should separate the two entities.

Let people have super fun, powerful PVE abilities.
Make stats and abilities function differently in PVP.

jcm2606 · July 2019

The game shouldn't be completely separate between the two, overlap should still be a thing. Being able to jump between PVE and PVP and having skills work relatively the same, except with different numbers, does make it easy on newer players to get into PVP, so the two shouldn't be completely separated.

All that needs to happen is any troublesome mechanics for PVP get dealt with through Battle Spirit. Petsorcs running amok in PVP? Reduce their damage through Battle Spirit. Resistance stacking on top of shields making magicka unkillable with the right build in PVP? Reduce the effectiveness of resistances on top of shields through Battle Spirit. You get the idea.

They already have the tools in place to do so, they just need to be willing.

Grianasteri · July 2019

Yes

jcm2606 wrote: »

The game shouldn't be completely separate between the two, overlap should still be a thing. All that needs to happen is any troublesome mechanics for PVP get dealt with through Battle Spirit. Petsorcs running amok in PVP? Reduce their damage through Battle Spirit. Resistance stacking on top of shields making magicka unkillable with the right build in PVP? Reduce the effectiveness of resistances on top of shields through Battle Spirit. You get the idea.

They already have the tools in place to do it, they just need to be willing to do it.

What this guy said ^

Berenhir · July 2019

What people don't grasp is that most of the nerfs are specifically directed at PvE.

PvE is like doing the same sudoku for years over and over to finish it faster than the autist to your right.

So now they changed your sudoku. And you won't quit because your have this inner urge to rinse and repeat that new sudoku until it will be changed again.

washbern · July 2019

Yes

People complaining too much about how other class abilities function in pvp far more than in pve. Though I agree with the battle spirit idea very much, I feel like its pvp crybabies who beg for homogenization of classes because if another class has a cool ability, they must have the same or nerf the other ability. Things like winged twilight or Betty natch make some pvpers itch with envy and cry NERF.

Yes, crossplay should be good. But I feel like abilities should be similar but not identical. on the character window have player flip a switch between pve and pvp. Have the tooltips display exactly what each ability will do pending on the toggle. Thatd be helpful for new players and old.

hakan · July 2019

Berenhir wrote: »

What people don't grasp is that most of the nerfs are specifically directed at PvE.

PvE is like doing the same sudoku for years over and over to finish it faster than the autist to your right.

So now they changed your sudoku. And you won't quit because your have this inner urge to rinse and repeat that new sudoku until it will be changed again.

Ikr? People always think its because of pvp but in reality it is pve. Morrowind nerfs were the same reason. Easy sustain.
These guys just want to kill the boss so fast, it cant even finish its sentence lol.

Luckylancer · July 2019

Yes

Skills should feel same in PvE and PvP. But these enviroments are so diffrent, diffrent balancing would be helpfull. Example: sorc negate.

Dusk_Coven · July 2019

Yes

Yes but it is too much to ask for separate skill lines.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484700/pvp-balancing-recommendation-for-balancing-pvp-just-stop-it-and-introduce-ranking-instead

Reverb · July 2019

Stop jumping to conclusions and assuming intent! Where’s your evidence that any of these changes have pvp causation? Forum posters have made pvp the boogeyman to blame for things they don’t like for years now, even when devs have gone on record as saying that pve performance was the driver.

So back up your statements. Which of the most recent changes were made because of pvp? And cite your sources.

Minyassa · July 2019

Yes

They won't, though. They made their stupid decision to blend the two and now they're determined to keep doing it no matter how much it screws over PvE.

El_Borracho · July 2019

Yes

Berenhir wrote: »

What people don't grasp is that most of the nerfs are specifically directed at PvE.

PvE is like doing the same sudoku for years over and over to finish it faster than the autist to your right.

So now they changed your sudoku. And you won't quit because your have this inner urge to rinse and repeat that new sudoku until it will be changed again.

But they're not. In no way does PVE performance force nerfs. For instance, cloak has little to no use in PVE. Shields were useful in PVE, but not nearly as much as they were in PVP. Both have be targeted repeatedly in the last year because of their utility in PVP. But the effects were uniform between PVE and PVP, primarily with shields. People complained that Twilight Matriarch was overperforming in PVP, so they are looking into changing it across the board, even though it is one of the only ways a petsorc can self-heal in PVE. Now, Dawnbreaker is getting a rework because, you guessed it, PVPers were upset it was overperforming. Dawnbreaker is the only universal stamina ultimate in the game for PVE, and one most PVEers wished was stronger. Its going to get weaker. Heck, S&B that just got nerfed. Was that because people were tired of tanks doing too well on their "sudoku?" LOL.

Aside from the when new classes are introduced, classes get changed only because one starts to take over Cyrodiil or BGs. Magblades were tops in PVE, but then the PVPers got upset at the carnage they were causing with normal and bomber builds. Now stamina has taken over, nearly across the board in PVE. What has been the response? Cries to nerf bow gankers and stamina tanks because stamina is too strong in PVP. There were threads calling for the nerfing of DKs after the last reworking of classed. DKs! Can't remember the last time I saw a bow gank build running vMOL. Was probably around the time a DK was an OP DPS in PVE.

Sets are the same. They get hammered usually because they are overperforming in PVP. 7th Legion and Fury just took a hit, 2 sets that rarely are used in PVE. Before that it was Thunderbug, Livewire, Vicious Death, the list goes on. The only set I can think of that took a hit in PVE because it was overperforming in PVE was the Relequen/Ravager combo. And that was because it was ridiculously overperforming.

Occasionally, someone will complain on these boards that a class, skill, or weapon should be nerfed for PVE. Its usually because they can't get a VMA bow. Or its because they are consumed with score runs. Most read them and laugh. Because someone else's DPS or survivability in PVE has zero effect on the other players in the game.

To claim that nerfs are PVE-driven is bonkers.

Sylosi · July 2019

These threads are funny - bad, clueless PvE players that blame every nerf on PvP.

There was even a thread the other day where some guy was blaming PvP for Endless Hail being nerfed, yes a skill barely used in PvP because strangely enough an AOE DOT that takes 10(?) seconds to deliver its damge isn't that good when used against players, because they actually move, but that doesn't occur to these clueless PvE players.

The powercreep in this game is real and the actual competent PvE players are hitting silly DPS numbers that trivialises the supposed "hardest" content in the game. Another newsflash for the clueless - some of those competent PvE players complain about the "hardest" content in the game being trivial, that is what a lot of balance changes are down to, not just PvP. I know to bads who basically play to be patted on the head like one of Pavlov's dogs and get their doggie biscuit reward this is inconceivable, but there you go.

Oh and you know one of the skills that some of those stam builds doing silly DPS use - Endless Hail, but of course it's all down to PvP. /facepalm.

jaws343 · July 2019

El_Borracho wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

What people don't grasp is that most of the nerfs are specifically directed at PvE.

PvE is like doing the same sudoku for years over and over to finish it faster than the autist to your right.

So now they changed your sudoku. And you won't quit because your have this inner urge to rinse and repeat that new sudoku until it will be changed again.

But they're not. In no way does PVE performance force nerfs. For instance, cloak has little to no use in PVE. Shields were useful in PVE, but not nearly as much as they were in PVP. Both have be targeted repeatedly in the last year because of their utility in PVP. But the effects were uniform between PVE and PVP, primarily with shields. People complained that Twilight Matriarch was overperforming in PVP, so they are looking into changing it across the board, even though it is one of the only ways a petsorc can self-heal in PVE. Now, Dawnbreaker is getting a rework because, you guessed it, PVPers were upset it was overperforming. Dawnbreaker is the only universal stamina ultimate in the game for PVE, and one most PVEers wished was stronger. Its going to get weaker. Heck, S&B that just got nerfed. Was that because people were tired of tanks doing too well on their "sudoku?" LOL.

Aside from the when new classes are introduced, classes get changed only because one starts to take over Cyrodiil or BGs. Magblades were tops in PVE, but then the PVPers got upset at the carnage they were causing with normal and bomber builds. Now stamina has taken over, nearly across the board in PVE. What has been the response? Cries to nerf bow gankers and stamina tanks because stamina is too strong in PVP. There were threads calling for the nerfing of DKs after the last reworking of classed. DKs! Can't remember the last time I saw a bow gank build running vMOL. Was probably around the time a DK was an OP DPS in PVE.

Sets are the same. They get hammered usually because they are overperforming in PVP. 7th Legion and Fury just took a hit, 2 sets that rarely are used in PVE. Before that it was Thunderbug, Livewire, Vicious Death, the list goes on. The only set I can think of that took a hit in PVE because it was overperforming in PVE was the Relequen/Ravager combo. And that was because it was ridiculously overperforming.

Occasionally, someone will complain on these boards that a class, skill, or weapon should be nerfed for PVE. Its usually because they can't get a VMA bow. Or its because they are consumed with score runs. Most read them and laugh. Because someone else's DPS or survivability in PVE has zero effect on the other players in the game.

To claim that nerfs are PVE-driven is bonkers.

Yeah, except you are wrong on a number of points here.

Only looking at the things that have use in both PVP and PVE, because bringing up cloak in this discussion is nonsense. As is bringing up 7th and Fury. You cannot complain that PVP complaints are impacting PVE things and then point to things that are only used in PVP. They have zero impact on PVE and no relevance on this discussion.

Shields: They literally said that they were nerfing shields because they made healers useless in PVE. That is literally their reason. So no, not a PVP driven nerf.

Twilight: The game shouldn't be balanced on player ability to solo group content. Healers are for healing (much like their reasoning for nerfing shields) While it was overtuned for PVP, the PVE impact is irrelevant here. And crit surge is more than enough healing output for any sorc to solo any content. If you are truly a pet sorc in group PVE you should be using a pet that does damage. Not to mention, the thing people complained about most with this ability in PVP, targeting, isn't changing.

Dawnbreaker: No stam character (outside of maybe stamdk) was using dawnbreaker as an actual ultimate. Most were using it as a damage boost while slotted and back barring the actual ult they would use. In many cases, when a class ult wasn't good enough, ballista was a better option to actually use in combat. So the nerf here should have zero impact on PVE performance.

SnB: Zero impact on a tanks ability to tank content. They don't need puncture dealing damage, they only need the taunt and debuff. And some of the skill changes should boost some of the damage they can tank, while also changing the PVP effectiveness.

Magblades: It is a problem when a trials group can use only magblades for DPS and not have to worry about healing because the magblades are overhealing the trial. And, from a PVE aspect, they specifically said that they want to make sure that groups are pulling different classes based on what those classes bring to the table. When one class brings everything to the table, it is a problem.

AcadianPaladin · July 2019

Yes

I do think Snipe got nerfed so heavily on the last big patch because group dungeons were full of Snipe spammers instantly killing all bosses and trials only wanted pure Snipe spammers for their elite teams. LOL. Oh, wait. . . . you mean you think perhaps it was PvP players complaining about desync and gankers in Cyrodiil? Who knew?

Okay, I'm joking. Does anyone in PvE think Snipe was ever overpowered given its cast time?

Seriously, though I do think the Snipe nerf was PvP driven, I don't feel that away about all nerfs at all. I don't blame PvE or PvP. I blame the devs. Their long term refusal to split PvE and PvP has never really worked but they cling to it. What that policy has absolutely done though is driven and maintained a wedge between PvP and PvE players - this thread is perfect evidence.

Saril_Durzam · July 2019

Yes

Create class & general Pvp skill lines.

They will appear only in Pvp areas, and pve skills wont be able to use them there.

It would be super fun to play two very different setups, and devs would have an easier job on balancing.

Narvuntien · July 2019

No

PVP and PVE have completely different requirements as far as builds and skills go.

PVE wants Dots and PVP wants Burst.
PvE has dedicated healers and PVP has self Healing
PVE wants to crit and PVP wants straight Damage.
PVP needs gap closers and CC and PVE only needs some CC for tanks

I don't understand why there is any overlap of skills at all. When you are doing PVP you should have a completely different set of skills as to when you are doing PVE.

azjuwelz · July 2019

Yes

Cloak *is* relevant to PVE for stealth content. Not for running trials or endgame material, certainly, but the cloaking ability is important in PVE if you like stealth play and trying to complete the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild DLCs.

I'm not even going to start on my poor Bosmer's racial passive, which was TOTALLY PVP-centered.

So, yeah, This isn't working well, these "balances," regardless of what the devs say are the reasons.

Xogath · July 2019

Yes

I don't even remember how many times I've suggested this now..

The simplest way to balance this game for both aspects without breaking one or the other in the process is to simply have all abilities follow either a PvE or PvP table of coefficients.

So any ability used in any PvE situation would reference the PvE table of coefficients, and deal damage based on that.

In any PvP situation (duel, BGs, Cyrodiil, IC, etc.), the player can be invisibly flagged so the game knows that now it needs to reference the PvP table of coefficients when abilities are used.

ezpz

The only non-constant in this ridiculously easy formula are duels. The game would have to know when to unflag both players.. but this isn't impossible to achieve at all. When the losing player dies and the duel is declared over, they're obviously unflagged. When the duel is declared over, the winning player would obviously be unflagged so they don't get shafted in to being stuck with PvP coefficient damage on their abilities while going about their day.

It would require a bit of work on ZOS' part to achieve this, as numerous checks would have to be in place outside of PvP maps to ensure that players were indeed not flagged (thus resulting in different damage than they should be doing), but intelligently designed it's very, very possible.

Doing this would allow the development team to simply adjust ability damage entirely separate from PvE and PvP.

If Surprise Attack's coefficient for PvE was something like 2.25, it could be lowered for PvP to, say, 1.75, so it wasn't two-shotting people, and so on for every other ability, passive, etc. in the game.

I know ability damage calculations aren't as cut and dry as a simple integer determining the damage, but you get the gist of what I'm saying.

Until something like this is done, balance will never be achieved in this game, and every single content patch is going to have one side or the other up in arms because their aspect of the game was altered due to the other aspect.

evoniee · July 2019

No

this is not skyrim online

Xarc · July 2019

No

I dont want to have to choose between pve and pvp. I like to have the ability to switch to the one or the other easily.

burglar · July 2019

No

Minyassa wrote: »

They won't, though. They made their stupid decision to blend the two and now they're determined to keep doing it no matter how much it screws over PvE.

They've always been balanced together. When were they separate?
TESO was marketed as a PvP game. PvP is integral to the lore of era in which ESO takes place.
Separate balancing is more unfair to those who pvp than the current system is perceived to be by PvE-only players: No one wants to learn, and maintain knowledge of a game this massive from two different perspectives.
- This might not cross the minds of those who only play PvE but, it'd be incredibly selfish to expect anyone who does PvP to deal with learning two sides of the game. That burden would be much greater on them than the current balancing system is on players that only play PvE. As it is now, everyone is required to keep up with the same amount of information.
The game won't be as good: We know ZoS won't pay for two balancing teams, so the balancing team's efforts would have to be divided, which effectively halves the quality of their work, assuming they provide each side with equal attention.
The current president of Zenimax is known for the PvP games hes made, and left a company he helped build to join ZOS when ESO development began.

I have always wondered though, how exactly do some players think that the current approach to balancing negatively impacts how players experience PvE? All they have to do is change the attributes of the instance to be in line with the skill line changes, and everything should be more or less the same difficulty, no?

burglar · July 2019

No

Xogath wrote: »

I don't even remember how many times I've suggested this now..

The simplest way to balance this game for both aspects without breaking one or the other in the process is to simply have all abilities follow either a PvE or PvP table of coefficients.

So any ability used in any PvE situation would reference the PvE table of coefficients, and deal damage based on that.

In any PvP situation (duel, BGs, Cyrodiil, IC, etc.), the player can be invisibly flagged so the game knows that now it needs to reference the PvP table of coefficients when abilities are used.

ezpz

The only non-constant in this ridiculously easy formula are duels. The game would have to know when to unflag both players.. but this isn't impossible to achieve at all. When the losing player dies and the duel is declared over, they're obviously unflagged. When the duel is declared over, the winning player would obviously be unflagged so they don't get shafted in to being stuck with PvP coefficient damage on their abilities while going about their day.

It would require a bit of work on ZOS' part to achieve this, as numerous checks would have to be in place outside of PvP maps to ensure that players were indeed not flagged (thus resulting in different damage than they should be doing), but intelligently designed it's very, very possible.

Doing this would allow the development team to simply adjust ability damage entirely separate from PvE and PvP.

If Surprise Attack's coefficient for PvE was something like 2.25, it could be lowered for PvP to, say, 1.75, so it wasn't two-shotting people, and so on for every other ability, passive, etc. in the game.

I know ability damage calculations aren't as cut and dry as a simple integer determining the damage, but you get the gist of what I'm saying.

Until something like this is done, balance will never be achieved in this game, and every single content patch is going to have one side or the other up in arms because their aspect of the game was altered due to the other aspect.

Is this not what battle spirit does, essentially? With the only real difference being that heals, shields and damage received by a player in Cyrodiil is divided by 2 rather than multiplied by some number. Which is actually brilliantly simple, because rather than doubling or quadrupling the calculations for each skill in PvE and PvP, they instead modify how the player receives interactions which quickly addresses most use if not all use cases. With skills streamlined in this way, they can compare and contrast PvE and PvP side by side pretty easily, using one big set of data if they like. You're suggested approach wouldn't allow that as easily.

Sirona_Starr · July 2019

Yes

jaws343 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

What people don't grasp is that most of the nerfs are specifically directed at PvE.

PvE is like doing the same sudoku for years over and over to finish it faster than the autist to your right.

So now they changed your sudoku. And you won't quit because your have this inner urge to rinse and repeat that new sudoku until it will be changed again.

But they're not. In no way does PVE performance force nerfs. For instance, cloak has little to no use in PVE. Shields were useful in PVE, but not nearly as much as they were in PVP. Both have be targeted repeatedly in the last year because of their utility in PVP. But the effects were uniform between PVE and PVP, primarily with shields. People complained that Twilight Matriarch was overperforming in PVP, so they are looking into changing it across the board, even though it is one of the only ways a petsorc can self-heal in PVE. Now, Dawnbreaker is getting a rework because, you guessed it, PVPers were upset it was overperforming. Dawnbreaker is the only universal stamina ultimate in the game for PVE, and one most PVEers wished was stronger. Its going to get weaker. Heck, S&B that just got nerfed. Was that because people were tired of tanks doing too well on their "sudoku?" LOL.

Aside from the when new classes are introduced, classes get changed only because one starts to take over Cyrodiil or BGs. Magblades were tops in PVE, but then the PVPers got upset at the carnage they were causing with normal and bomber builds. Now stamina has taken over, nearly across the board in PVE. What has been the response? Cries to nerf bow gankers and stamina tanks because stamina is too strong in PVP. There were threads calling for the nerfing of DKs after the last reworking of classed. DKs! Can't remember the last time I saw a bow gank build running vMOL. Was probably around the time a DK was an OP DPS in PVE.

Sets are the same. They get hammered usually because they are overperforming in PVP. 7th Legion and Fury just took a hit, 2 sets that rarely are used in PVE. Before that it was Thunderbug, Livewire, Vicious Death, the list goes on. The only set I can think of that took a hit in PVE because it was overperforming in PVE was the Relequen/Ravager combo. And that was because it was ridiculously overperforming.

Occasionally, someone will complain on these boards that a class, skill, or weapon should be nerfed for PVE. Its usually because they can't get a VMA bow. Or its because they are consumed with score runs. Most read them and laugh. Because someone else's DPS or survivability in PVE has zero effect on the other players in the game.

To claim that nerfs are PVE-driven is bonkers.

Yeah, except you are wrong on a number of points here.

Only looking at the things that have use in both PVP and PVE, because bringing up cloak in this discussion is nonsense. As is bringing up 7th and Fury. You cannot complain that PVP complaints are impacting PVE things and then point to things that are only used in PVP. They have zero impact on PVE and no relevance on this discussion.

Shields: They literally said that they were nerfing shields because they made healers useless in PVE. That is literally their reason. So no, not a PVP driven nerf.

Twilight: The game shouldn't be balanced on player ability to solo group content. Healers are for healing (much like their reasoning for nerfing shields) While it was overtuned for PVP, the PVE impact is irrelevant here. And crit surge is more than enough healing output for any sorc to solo any content. If you are truly a pet sorc in group PVE you should be using a pet that does damage. Not to mention, the thing people complained about most with this ability in PVP, targeting, isn't changing.

Dawnbreaker: No stam character (outside of maybe stamdk) was using dawnbreaker as an actual ultimate. Most were using it as a damage boost while slotted and back barring the actual ult they would use. In many cases, when a class ult wasn't good enough, ballista was a better option to actually use in combat. So the nerf here should have zero impact on PVE performance.

SnB: Zero impact on a tanks ability to tank content. They don't need puncture dealing damage, they only need the taunt and debuff. And some of the skill changes should boost some of the damage they can tank, while also changing the PVP effectiveness.

Magblades: It is a problem when a trials group can use only magblades for DPS and not have to worry about healing because the magblades are overhealing the trial. And, from a PVE aspect, they specifically said that they want to make sure that groups are pulling different classes based on what those classes bring to the table. When one class brings everything to the table, it is a problem.

Uh, some tanks play overland content - it's not just about end game here. It already takes a tank forever to kill in overland, so the nerf to SNB does matter - it's not just the taunt.......

WuffyCerulei · July 2019

Yes

Do pvpers not realize that healing nerfs and whatnot are happening because they cried about it? Do they not realize that healers have a hard time as it is in dungeons and trials, and forcing them to either healer or be a buff birch is making their role less fun?
Zos really needs to keep their pvp nerfs to Battle Spirit. Reduce the amount of healing people can do/receive.

Wandering_Immigrant · July 2019

No

I personally can't stand when games do a hard seperation of PvE and PvP. I don't PvP solely for the sake of PvP. When I decide I want to take a character into Cyrodil it's usually because that character is feeling pretty solid and I want to challenge that character against real people to see how well they hold up.

And I want it to be that same character, with his same abilities, using strategies as similar as possible to what he's been doing. I want to go into it with the confidence of knowing that, while not everything will translate perfectly, some things that work against an NPC aren't going to work against a real player, I'm at least familiar with what all my abilities do, if one approach isn't working I know what my other options are because I've had to make adjustments with that character before.

Otherwise, what's the point? If I have to essentially relearn my character's strengths and weaknesses and what my go-to abilities are on the fly while I'm charging into a keep then at that point I'm no longer looking for a new challenge for that character to overcome, at that point I'm simply PvPing for the sake of PvPing, which, I'm just not into that and wouldn't bother with.

Even if they did separate it nerfs would still happen, this is just scapegoating. Even games that have no PvP whatsoever go through balancing patches all the time. The community adjusts, and then excels, and then gets nerfed again. Such is life. There's no such thing as PvE, should be called PvD, player vs developer, but where the player always wins because it's the developers job make sure the player can while also not just waving the white flag and rolling over. So the players become too good, content becomes too trivial, nerfs happen. Think of a nerf cycle as a challenge being issued to you, you can either accept the challenge and learn to excel under these new parameters, or you can throw in the towel and go play The Sims. So many options.

Emma_Overload · July 2019

No. They will never split the game in two because it would cost too much.

All they need to do is balance for PvP FIRST, and THEN balance PvE mobs and mechanics against the players. All they have to do to make you guys feel "powerful" is make the mobs a little weaker here and there.

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

Yes

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

They won't, though. They made their stupid decision to blend the two and now they're determined to keep doing it no matter how much it screws over PvE.

They've always been balanced together. When were they separate?

TESO was marketed as a PvP game. PvP is integral to the lore of era in which ESO takes place.

Separate balancing is more unfair to those who pvp than the current system is perceived to be by PvE-only players: No one wants to learn, and maintain knowledge of a game this massive from two different perspectives.

It should not be even remotely difficult to remember two different skill sets.This is just an excuse for laziness.

Xogath · July 2019

Yes

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Xogath wrote: »

I don't even remember how many times I've suggested this now..

The simplest way to balance this game for both aspects without breaking one or the other in the process is to simply have all abilities follow either a PvE or PvP table of coefficients.

So any ability used in any PvE situation would reference the PvE table of coefficients, and deal damage based on that.

In any PvP situation (duel, BGs, Cyrodiil, IC, etc.), the player can be invisibly flagged so the game knows that now it needs to reference the PvP table of coefficients when abilities are used.

ezpz

The only non-constant in this ridiculously easy formula are duels. The game would have to know when to unflag both players.. but this isn't impossible to achieve at all. When the losing player dies and the duel is declared over, they're obviously unflagged. When the duel is declared over, the winning player would obviously be unflagged so they don't get shafted in to being stuck with PvP coefficient damage on their abilities while going about their day.

It would require a bit of work on ZOS' part to achieve this, as numerous checks would have to be in place outside of PvP maps to ensure that players were indeed not flagged (thus resulting in different damage than they should be doing), but intelligently designed it's very, very possible.

Doing this would allow the development team to simply adjust ability damage entirely separate from PvE and PvP.

If Surprise Attack's coefficient for PvE was something like 2.25, it could be lowered for PvP to, say, 1.75, so it wasn't two-shotting people, and so on for every other ability, passive, etc. in the game.

I know ability damage calculations aren't as cut and dry as a simple integer determining the damage, but you get the gist of what I'm saying.

Until something like this is done, balance will never be achieved in this game, and every single content patch is going to have one side or the other up in arms because their aspect of the game was altered due to the other aspect.

Is this not what battle spirit does, essentially? With the only real difference being that heals, shields and damage received by a player in Cyrodiil is divided by 2 rather than multiplied by some number. Which is actually brilliantly simple, because rather than doubling or quadrupling the calculations for each skill in PvE and PvP, they instead modify how the player receives interactions which quickly addresses most use if not all use cases. With skills streamlined in this way, they can compare and contrast PvE and PvP side by side pretty easily, using one big set of data if they like. You're suggested approach wouldn't allow that as easily.

Battle Spirit is simply a blanket "debuff" to overall values.. while it is as simple as you're perceiving it, it could not be any more lazy.

Think of it as a map-wide, negative multiplier.. if that makes sense. I'll provide an additional example, though:

Currently, in WoW, once a raid is no longer current content, they typically add a raid-wide buff that gives the player extra health, damage, etc. up to a certain percent. Battle Spirit is basically the opposite of this. To the game, it's basically like saying "Yeah, when a player is on a PvP map, they need to take -50% damage, -50% healing, etc." ..they are modifiers that take precedence over all other calculations.

On the other hand, having a second set of damage coefficients as I've proposed countless times would allow them to balance each aspect of the game as they wished, without it affecting another aspect. I'll try to make an example but it's going to look horrible.

[Skill.[SkillID].PvE]
DamageCalcsAndSuch(Coefficient in the middle somewhere that governs the overall damage of the skill)
[Skill.[SkillID].PvP]
DamageCalcsAndSuch(Coefficient in the middle somewhere that could be different from the PvE version, adjusted for PvP)

Basically, if they had a text file with every ability in the game and its calculations in it, they would have a separate file with the same things, only tagged as the PvP version of the abilities. The only difference would be that one number that governs the overall damage of the ability. If [SkillID] had a multiplier/coefficient of 1.25 in a PvE situation, and development found that to be acceptable for PvE content, but maybe hitting too much in PvP situations.. they could simply edit the PvP version's coefficient to, say, 1.15 or something, so it was adjusted for PvP situations only instead of nerfing the whole ability across all aspects of the game and potentially destroying fun builds in the process.

This would result in buffs and nerfs to things that didn't affect the other end of the game.

So if, say, Poison Injection was found to be ticking for acceptable amounts in PvE situations, but maybe far too much in PvP situations, they could simply tweak the PvP version's coefficient and tone down the damage using their own calculations as a formula to figure out exactly how much it would be hitting for on any given target, given they have access to such information.

The only other thing that would need to happen for this to work is already a system in place on live servers.. Battle Spirit. The game checks if a player is on a PvP map, and applies the buff when they are. That same check could be used to tell the game "Okay, flag this player so we know to use the PvP coefficients for damage now" and life would go on. As soon as a player left a PvP map, as Battle Spirit is removed from them today, the "flag" would be removed from them and the game would then know to use the PvE coefficients again.

They could even add in a hotkey for viewing PvE/PvP tooltips; such as hovering over an ability to see one tooltip, and pressing CTRL or something to have it display the PvP tooltip.

Something like this is essentially the only sensible way to separate the two aspects of the game, and would further set ESO apart from other MMORPGs who are constantly in a balance struggle between PvE and PvP. It would allow the development team to easily identify problem mechanics (ie: overperforming abilities) in one aspect or the other, and fix them accordingly.

If an ability was found to need reworked for whatever reason, then yes, both versions would need edited and coefficients adjusted on both ends.. but this wouldn't be some gigantic effort compared to having a literal balancing act between two important aspects of the game like we have now.

Wolfchild07 · July 2019

Battlespirit is there for a reason. To lower damage, healing, survivability of skills. Not change the core function of them. It's like ZOS has no clue it exists anymore.

Browiseth · July 2019

Yes

why even bother making this a poll when you make your bias so obvious

Shantu · July 2019

Yes

ZOS_BrianWheeler
Lead PvP Designer

That should tell you all you need to know.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Stop balancing PVE for PVP

Stop balancing PVE for PVP 191 votes