Another update, another patch you can't hide vampire

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

Kawall wrote: »

Don't worry ZOS will add hide vampire to crown store soon.

We've been asking for it for years now.

Either that or make vampirism an actual transformation like werewolf. You shouldn't just be able to become a vampire and get free resource regen without having to use any vampire skills.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2019

Vortigaunt wrote: »

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

You wanted to be a vamp. You're a vamp. Deal with it.

Yeah? How about we cover all werewolves in thick black fur while we’re at it eh? Wonder what your hot blonde high elf looks with fur above her lips

Welle werewolf are a temporary transformation while vamp is "permanant"

Jeremy · July 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Kawall wrote: »

Don't worry ZOS will add hide vampire to crown store soon.

We've been asking for it for years now.

Either that or make vampirism an actual transformation like werewolf. You shouldn't just be able to become a vampire and get free resource regen without having to use any vampire skills.

I wouldn't describe it as free - because you do have to suffer some fire resistance penalties to get the passive bonus. Plus it costs skill points of course.

But that's one of the reasons I fully support giving players the option to hide the vampire skin. That way players who feel they are being put at a disadvantage because they don't want to become a Vampire due to the looks will no longer feel that way. Then they can go get bit - get the passive bonus - hide the skin - and no longer feel obligated to call Vampires OP. ^^

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2019

Just use the scale caller or the rimefrost(i think its called) skin they are the nearest to normal skin

Attackfrog · July 2019

Vampires are hot.

Pyr0xyrecuprotite · July 2019

The icerime skin was in the crown store for 40 gems recently. Combine that with the Jester festival facepaint mask, and no more problems on my vamp.

yodased · July 2019

Recremen wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Kind of sad how many edgy-on-purpose replies this is getting. I think it's perfectly fine to want to keep your character's original looks instead of the always-on vampire ugliness. Vampirism is the only build in the game which permanently changes how your character looks, and that's bad. Looks should be a choice that's completely separated from how you build your character for gameplay purposes. Almost nobody is out here being like "oh man I really want to RP a vampire and have conceptualized this character to be one since the very beginning", they're only doing vampirism because it's important for the build they've put together.

And to be clear, NONE of the skins available in game are a good replacement, which should be obvious to people and yet here we are. If one skin (vampirism) doesn't look the way someone wants because it changes their character's aesthetic, do you really think turning into a living shadow or molten golem is going to be the fix? Of course not! Use your heads, people! And stop harping on folks who want more aesthetic options!

Vamp also is the only build in the game that gives you "always-on" passives which are dope as hell. So really the payoff for that sexy regen, that uber sneak speed and that oh-so delicious 35% mitigation is you look a certain way.

Seems legit

Illogical argument. Combat-related buffs should come with combat-related tradeoffs. If vampirism is overtuned then it ought to get a nerf. If vampirism is fine as-is, then it shouldn't be singled out for coming with automatic permanent ugliness. Besides, you're basically giving blanket permission to make stuff OP as heck as long as it makes your character physically unattractive. Should that new pestilence skin make you immune to disease damage? Should the skeleton polymorph make you immune to bleeds? Obviously not. You either didn't think your position all the way through or you're making the exact kind of "edgy-on-purpose" reply I was talking about.

It's not illogical at all. It's not a question of being overtuned, its simply that its a permanent buff that gets a permanent change to your apperance. The downside If werewolf was permanent buff you would be in wolf the entire time, would you want a skin to change you back to a human for that too?

You want to appear like you are being rational, but you just want it to be a way so ad hominem.

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The worst part about these patch notes is that we STILL can't hide vampire and are forced to wear an ugly skin or have the ugly vampire look. Something HAS to be done, this is unacceptable.

While I personally think Vampires look cool - judging by how often this option is asked for the developers should probably do it. Would be an easy change - make a lot of players happy - and wouldn't negatively affect anyone else.

Would also make a lot of players unhappy and depending on your opinion it does indeed have a negative impact on some players.

Combat mechanics is not the only way a player can be negatively impacted in the game.

Why not let werewolves then have a permanent werewolf status with no appearance penalties?

Why even have any penalties at all for being a vamp, next the same players will whine to remove the lowered fire resistance.

Why can't I look like anything I want, if we make vamps hide-able should not anyone be able to have any appearance they want? Make all polymorphs free and let everyone look however they want, this is the argument those here are using for the vamp appearance.

I don't understand why this should make other players unhappy. It seems like a harmless change to me that would do nothing but increase the enjoyment of others. It's just a skin. Besides, the in-game Vampire NPCs (such as the one in Rivenspire) was capable of hiding his Vamprism. So why not allow players to do the same?

This^

I've asked similar questions of those against it,and they can't even bother to answer about the skin argument.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · July 2019

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Vortigaunt wrote: »

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

You wanted to be a vamp. You're a vamp. Deal with it.

Yeah? How about we cover all werewolves in thick black fur while we’re at it eh? Wonder what your hot blonde high elf looks with fur above her lips

Welle werewolf are a temporary transformation while vamp is "permanant"

while lycanthropy is “temporary” your still stuck with it for the rest of your life until either cured or killed

Edit: spelling

yodased · July 2019

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The worst part about these patch notes is that we STILL can't hide vampire and are forced to wear an ugly skin or have the ugly vampire look. Something HAS to be done, this is unacceptable.

While I personally think Vampires look cool - judging by how often this option is asked for the developers should probably do it. Would be an easy change - make a lot of players happy - and wouldn't negatively affect anyone else.

Would also make a lot of players unhappy and depending on your opinion it does indeed have a negative impact on some players.

Combat mechanics is not the only way a player can be negatively impacted in the game.

Why not let werewolves then have a permanent werewolf status with no appearance penalties?

Why even have any penalties at all for being a vamp, next the same players will whine to remove the lowered fire resistance.

Why can't I look like anything I want, if we make vamps hide-able should not anyone be able to have any appearance they want? Make all polymorphs free and let everyone look however they want, this is the argument those here are using for the vamp appearance.

I don't understand why this should make other players unhappy. It seems like a harmless change to me that would do nothing but increase the enjoyment of others. It's just a skin. Besides, the in-game Vampire NPCs (such as the one in Rivenspire) was capable of hiding his Vamprism. So why not allow players to do the same?

This^

I've asked similar questions of those against it,and they can't even bother to answer about the skin argument.

Well the main reason is because if there wasn't a drawback then anyone and everyone in the game would be a vampire and it wouldnt even be a thing to discuss. The fire damage? Come on.

The reason that it is a skin like that is for the very reason this post exists, because there has to be SOME trade off for such powerful passives.

You want the passives, you take the skin. Tradeoff.

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

yodased wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The worst part about these patch notes is that we STILL can't hide vampire and are forced to wear an ugly skin or have the ugly vampire look. Something HAS to be done, this is unacceptable.

While I personally think Vampires look cool - judging by how often this option is asked for the developers should probably do it. Would be an easy change - make a lot of players happy - and wouldn't negatively affect anyone else.

Would also make a lot of players unhappy and depending on your opinion it does indeed have a negative impact on some players.

Combat mechanics is not the only way a player can be negatively impacted in the game.

Why not let werewolves then have a permanent werewolf status with no appearance penalties?

Why even have any penalties at all for being a vamp, next the same players will whine to remove the lowered fire resistance.

Why can't I look like anything I want, if we make vamps hide-able should not anyone be able to have any appearance they want? Make all polymorphs free and let everyone look however they want, this is the argument those here are using for the vamp appearance.

I don't understand why this should make other players unhappy. It seems like a harmless change to me that would do nothing but increase the enjoyment of others. It's just a skin. Besides, the in-game Vampire NPCs (such as the one in Rivenspire) was capable of hiding his Vamprism. So why not allow players to do the same?

This^

I've asked similar questions of those against it,and they can't even bother to answer about the skin argument.

Well the main reason is because if there wasn't a drawback then anyone and everyone in the game would be a vampire and it wouldnt even be a thing to discuss. The fire damage? Come on.

The reason that it is a skin like that is for the very reason this post exists, because there has to be SOME trade off for such powerful passives.

You want the passives, you take the skin. Tradeoff.

Appearance tradeoffs for gameplay buffs don't make sense.

You're punishing players who care about their appearance, in a role-playing game, while helping players who don't.

That isn't a gameplay tradeoff. That has nothing to do with skill or theory-crafting. That's literally just punishing people based on their real-life personality.

Recremen · July 2019

yodased wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Kind of sad how many edgy-on-purpose replies this is getting. I think it's perfectly fine to want to keep your character's original looks instead of the always-on vampire ugliness. Vampirism is the only build in the game which permanently changes how your character looks, and that's bad. Looks should be a choice that's completely separated from how you build your character for gameplay purposes. Almost nobody is out here being like "oh man I really want to RP a vampire and have conceptualized this character to be one since the very beginning", they're only doing vampirism because it's important for the build they've put together.

And to be clear, NONE of the skins available in game are a good replacement, which should be obvious to people and yet here we are. If one skin (vampirism) doesn't look the way someone wants because it changes their character's aesthetic, do you really think turning into a living shadow or molten golem is going to be the fix? Of course not! Use your heads, people! And stop harping on folks who want more aesthetic options!

Vamp also is the only build in the game that gives you "always-on" passives which are dope as hell. So really the payoff for that sexy regen, that uber sneak speed and that oh-so delicious 35% mitigation is you look a certain way.

Seems legit

Illogical argument. Combat-related buffs should come with combat-related tradeoffs. If vampirism is overtuned then it ought to get a nerf. If vampirism is fine as-is, then it shouldn't be singled out for coming with automatic permanent ugliness. Besides, you're basically giving blanket permission to make stuff OP as heck as long as it makes your character physically unattractive. Should that new pestilence skin make you immune to disease damage? Should the skeleton polymorph make you immune to bleeds? Obviously not. You either didn't think your position all the way through or you're making the exact kind of "edgy-on-purpose" reply I was talking about.

It's not illogical at all. It's not a question of being overtuned, its simply that its a permanent buff that gets a permanent change to your apperance. The downside If werewolf was permanent buff you would be in wolf the entire time, would you want a skin to change you back to a human for that too?

You want to appear like you are being rational, but you just want it to be a way so ad hominem.

It is completely illogical. Your rationale is pants-on-head backwards. You aren't even correct in your own assertion, since slotting the werewolf ultimate gives a perpetual 15% stamina regen buff, no transformation required. Next you'll be arguing that the always-on Fighter's Guild passives should come with some aesthetic tradeoff. And, naturally, you didn't even attempt to address why you think a combat-related mechanic should have an aesthetic-related consequence. It's also really curious that you initially definitely were making a case for it being overtuned, but now are saying it's not. What happened to that "sexy regen, uber sneak speed, and oh-so delicious 35% mitigation"? Did you just forget you said those things as soon as it became inconvenient to your argument?

This is why I said you either didn't think your argument through, or that you're being edgy on purpose. It's not ad hominem, it's that your argument was initially illogical (and now downright inconsistent), and now you're ignoring legitimate challenges to the basis of your argument. That's not the behavior of someone trying to make a legitimate point, that's the behavior of someone trying to be contrarian for fun.

Rampeal · July 2019

You know you could I don't know.....feed? Or not chose a skill line for the passives. In my opinion they should make it where you HAVE to feed to keep those bonus abilities. Vampires need to be more than just a passive buff.

HappyLittleTree · July 2019

Arctic rim skin

Browiseth · July 2019

how to tell if someone is a chronic contrarian: if they disagree with giving vamps the option to hide their vampiric appearance, they probably disagree with everyone over everything for the sake of disagreeing

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

yodased wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The worst part about these patch notes is that we STILL can't hide vampire and are forced to wear an ugly skin or have the ugly vampire look. Something HAS to be done, this is unacceptable.

While I personally think Vampires look cool - judging by how often this option is asked for the developers should probably do it. Would be an easy change - make a lot of players happy - and wouldn't negatively affect anyone else.

Would also make a lot of players unhappy and depending on your opinion it does indeed have a negative impact on some players.

Combat mechanics is not the only way a player can be negatively impacted in the game.

Why not let werewolves then have a permanent werewolf status with no appearance penalties?

Why even have any penalties at all for being a vamp, next the same players will whine to remove the lowered fire resistance.

Why can't I look like anything I want, if we make vamps hide-able should not anyone be able to have any appearance they want? Make all polymorphs free and let everyone look however they want, this is the argument those here are using for the vamp appearance.

I don't understand why this should make other players unhappy. It seems like a harmless change to me that would do nothing but increase the enjoyment of others. It's just a skin. Besides, the in-game Vampire NPCs (such as the one in Rivenspire) was capable of hiding his Vamprism. So why not allow players to do the same?

This^

I've asked similar questions of those against it,and they can't even bother to answer about the skin argument.

Well the main reason is because if there wasn't a drawback then anyone and everyone in the game would be a vampire and it wouldnt even be a thing to discuss. The fire damage? Come on.

The reason that it is a skin like that is for the very reason this post exists, because there has to be SOME trade off for such powerful passives.

You want the passives, you take the skin. Tradeoff.

Ok.Then why not explain say if we say we really only want the regen?I did ask this question of you.Unless of course I did not see. Makes some kind of combat related thing as a trade off for all I care.

ArchMikem · July 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Kawall wrote: »

Don't worry ZOS will add hide vampire to crown store soon.

We've been asking for it for years now.

Either that or make vampirism an actual transformation like werewolf. You shouldn't just be able to become a vampire and get free resource regen without having to use any vampire skills.

I wouldn't describe it as free - because you do have to suffer some fire resistance penalties to get the passive bonus. Plus it costs skill points of course.

But that's one of the reasons I fully support giving players the option to hide the vampire skin. That way players who feel they are being put at a disadvantage because they don't want to become a Vampire due to the looks will no longer feel that way. Then they can go get bit - get the passive bonus - hide the skin - and no longer feel obligated to call Vampires OP. ^^

But i dont want to be cursed. Vampirism and Lycanthropy have been turned into the literal standard of living in Tamriel by the players that theyve lost all original meaning behind their place in the Lore. They are cursed monsters, living in the shadows and depths of the world, hunted down. In ESO almost EVERYONE is bitten just because the passives are too good and people are fighting to get rid of the one immersive tradeoff to being cursed cause they want their cake and want to eat it too.

Why cant people just deal. If they feel so strongly about their visual appearance, go get cured and deal without the passives.

yodased · July 2019

Just because something is good doesn't make it over tuned stop trying to put meaning into something that isn't there.

So what you are saying is i want free 10% regen on my stats with no drawback.

I want to mitigate 35% of all damage at low health because reasons.

So fine just add 10% regen to all characters in the game and we will be fine.

Also werewolf giving you passive regen while its slotted is a huge detractor because that is a useless ultimate until you get enough to transform. The detractors of werewolf are the loss of another ultimate, you have to transform and you lose all your secondary bar effects as well as having to build around the Wolf while veing a wet noodle out of wolf.

You can attack me all you want but this is simply you want the benefits of something without the detractors.

I don't get to tell you the reasons they made it a visual detractor. Let me quote some of the Mlgpro players when they talk about animation cancelling: its a feature and there are active counters in the game. L2P.

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

yodased wrote: »

Just because something is good doesn't make it over tuned stop trying to put meaning into something that isn't there.

So what you are saying is i want free 10% regen on my stats with no drawback.

I want to mitigate 35% of all damage at low health because reasons.

So fine just add 10% regen to all characters in the game and we will be fine.

Also werewolf giving you passive regen while its slotted is a huge detractor because that is a useless ultimate until you get enough to transform. The detractors of werewolf are the loss of another ultimate, you have to transform and you lose all your secondary bar effects as well as having to build around the Wolf while veing a wet noodle out of wolf.

You can attack me all you want but this is simply you want the benefits of something without the detractors.

I don't get to tell you the reasons they made it a visual detractor. Let me quote some of the Mlgpro players when they talk about animation cancelling: its a feature and there are active counters in the game. L2P.

ok then what if we want to change what we trade for the regen then?I have said I had no isssue with this.

CaptainVenom · July 2019

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The worst part about these patch notes is that we STILL can't hide vampire and are forced to wear an ugly skin or have the ugly vampire look. Something HAS to be done, this is unacceptable.

That's the price you pay for being a vampire. You can always become mortal again by curing your vampirism, tho'.

Skwor · July 2019

Browiseth wrote: »

how to tell if someone is a chronic contrarian: if they disagree with giving vamps the option to hide their vampiric appearance, they probably disagree with everyone over everything for the sake of disagreeing

A round-about way of saying anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. How "open minded" of you.

Skwor · July 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The worst part about these patch notes is that we STILL can't hide vampire and are forced to wear an ugly skin or have the ugly vampire look. Something HAS to be done, this is unacceptable.

While I personally think Vampires look cool - judging by how often this option is asked for the developers should probably do it. Would be an easy change - make a lot of players happy - and wouldn't negatively affect anyone else.

Would also make a lot of players unhappy and depending on your opinion it does indeed have a negative impact on some players.

Combat mechanics is not the only way a player can be negatively impacted in the game.

Why not let werewolves then have a permanent werewolf status with no appearance penalties?

Why even have any penalties at all for being a vamp, next the same players will whine to remove the lowered fire resistance.

Why can't I look like anything I want, if we make vamps hide-able should not anyone be able to have any appearance they want? Make all polymorphs free and let everyone look however they want, this is the argument those here are using for the vamp appearance.

I don't understand why this should make other players unhappy. It seems like a harmless change to me that would do nothing but increase the enjoyment of others. It's just a skin. Besides, the in-game Vampire NPCs (such as the one in Rivenspire) was capable of hiding his Vamprism. So why not allow players to do the same?

You do not understand becuase you refuse to. I gave reasons, feel free to disagree but no one gets to tell someone else what makes them happy or unhappy.

Recremen · July 2019

yodased wrote: »

Just because something is good doesn't make it over tuned stop trying to put meaning into something that isn't there.

So what you are saying is i want free 10% regen on my stats with no drawback.

I want to mitigate 35% of all damage at low health because reasons.

So fine just add 10% regen to all characters in the game and we will be fine.

Also werewolf giving you passive regen while its slotted is a huge detractor because that is a useless ultimate until you get enough to transform. The detractors of werewolf are the loss of another ultimate, you have to transform and you lose all your secondary bar effects as well as having to build around the Wolf while veing a wet noodle out of wolf.

You can attack me all you want but this is simply you want the benefits of something without the detractors.

I don't get to tell you the reasons they made it a visual detractor. Let me quote some of the Mlgpro players when they talk about animation cancelling: its a feature and there are active counters in the game. L2P.

You keep bringing up how good the passives are and then implying that the vampirism skin is the tradeoff/drawback for those passives. I'm not the one who's arguing it's overtuned, you are every time you do this. I'm just pointing out that this is a ridiculous, illogical sentiment. Combat bonuses should be balanced around combat, not around something subjective like an aesthetic change.

What do you say to people who actually like the vamp aesthetic? Are they not playing fair because they're getting two things they like with what you describe as "no drawback"? What about people who happen to like a skin and use that, which has the consequence of hiding vampirism? Are they cheaters now? You gonna report them to ZOS for avoiding the negatives of vampirism, the negatives that you are implying are essential to keep it balanced?

And nope, slotting werewolf on your front bar is pretty standard for certain builds since you only need to switch to back bar for your good ultimate. You get free front-bar regen with no penalty. Also you're just arguing my own point for me either way, since you're trying to show that other always-on bonuses are balanced around combat mechanics and not aesthetics. Oopsie-doodle!

And contrary to your claim, I don't "want the benefits of something without the detractors". I don't even have any vampire characters. I just want more aesthetic options for more people, and I think that combat abilities need to be balanced around combat mechanics instead of subjective aesthetic preferences. It's really not hard to understand the importance of that separation.

Skwor · July 2019

Recremen wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Just because something is good doesn't make it over tuned stop trying to put meaning into something that isn't there.

So what you are saying is i want free 10% regen on my stats with no drawback.

I want to mitigate 35% of all damage at low health because reasons.

So fine just add 10% regen to all characters in the game and we will be fine.

Also werewolf giving you passive regen while its slotted is a huge detractor because that is a useless ultimate until you get enough to transform. The detractors of werewolf are the loss of another ultimate, you have to transform and you lose all your secondary bar effects as well as having to build around the Wolf while veing a wet noodle out of wolf.

You can attack me all you want but this is simply you want the benefits of something without the detractors.

I don't get to tell you the reasons they made it a visual detractor. Let me quote some of the Mlgpro players when they talk about animation cancelling: its a feature and there are active counters in the game. L2P.

You keep bringing up how good the passives are and then implying that the vampirism skin is the tradeoff/drawback for those passives. I'm not the one who's arguing it's overtuned, you are every time you do this. I'm just pointing out that this is a ridiculous, illogical sentiment. Combat bonuses should be balanced around combat, not around something subjective like an aesthetic change.

What do you say to people who actually like the vamp aesthetic? Are they not playing fair because they're getting two things they like with what you describe as "no drawback"? What about people who happen to like a skin and use that, which has the consequence of hiding vampirism? Are they cheaters now? You gonna report them to ZOS for avoiding the negatives of vampirism, the negatives that you are implying are essential to keep it balanced?

And nope, slotting werewolf on your front bar is pretty standard for certain builds since you only need to switch to back bar for your good ultimate. You get free front-bar regen with no penalty. Also you're just arguing my own point for me either way, since you're trying to show that other always-on bonuses are balanced around combat mechanics and not aesthetics. Oopsie-doodle!

And contrary to your claim, I don't "want the benefits of something without the detractors". I don't even have any vampire characters. I just want more aesthetic options for more people, and I think that combat abilities need to be balanced around combat mechanics instead of subjective aesthetic preferences. It's really not hard to understand the importance of that separation.

The appearance is one of the drawbacks. That you feel it is ridiculous has no bearing on this debate, many feel it is appropriate, both are just opinions.

You argue it is illogical, ok a valid point to debate but please realise by arguing this you are declaring appearance as not an acceptable drawback to the skill line. Fine then give up some passives and skills. Something has to balance. What is illogical is removing a drawback and not replacing it. All you really are doing is asking for more, not balance.

BrooksP · July 2019

What bothers me most isn't so much the looks(I use a polymorph anyways), but that Vampirism is known for their regenerative abilities...Yet being a vampire actually reduces health regen...

thedude33 · July 2019

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

You wanted to be a vamp. You're a vamp. Deal with it.

but what if I identify as something else?

yodased · July 2019

SIGH for the last time.

It's not overtuned because it has a drawback, a detractor a balance to it.

The fact you don't like what that drawback is or agree that it should exist is irrelevant to the fact that it exists.

If you could get the vampire passives without the visual drawback its overtuned

Recremen · July 2019

Skwor wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Just because something is good doesn't make it over tuned stop trying to put meaning into something that isn't there.

So what you are saying is i want free 10% regen on my stats with no drawback.

I want to mitigate 35% of all damage at low health because reasons.

So fine just add 10% regen to all characters in the game and we will be fine.

Also werewolf giving you passive regen while its slotted is a huge detractor because that is a useless ultimate until you get enough to transform. The detractors of werewolf are the loss of another ultimate, you have to transform and you lose all your secondary bar effects as well as having to build around the Wolf while veing a wet noodle out of wolf.

You can attack me all you want but this is simply you want the benefits of something without the detractors.

I don't get to tell you the reasons they made it a visual detractor. Let me quote some of the Mlgpro players when they talk about animation cancelling: its a feature and there are active counters in the game. L2P.

You keep bringing up how good the passives are and then implying that the vampirism skin is the tradeoff/drawback for those passives. I'm not the one who's arguing it's overtuned, you are every time you do this. I'm just pointing out that this is a ridiculous, illogical sentiment. Combat bonuses should be balanced around combat, not around something subjective like an aesthetic change.

What do you say to people who actually like the vamp aesthetic? Are they not playing fair because they're getting two things they like with what you describe as "no drawback"? What about people who happen to like a skin and use that, which has the consequence of hiding vampirism? Are they cheaters now? You gonna report them to ZOS for avoiding the negatives of vampirism, the negatives that you are implying are essential to keep it balanced?

And nope, slotting werewolf on your front bar is pretty standard for certain builds since you only need to switch to back bar for your good ultimate. You get free front-bar regen with no penalty. Also you're just arguing my own point for me either way, since you're trying to show that other always-on bonuses are balanced around combat mechanics and not aesthetics. Oopsie-doodle!

And contrary to your claim, I don't "want the benefits of something without the detractors". I don't even have any vampire characters. I just want more aesthetic options for more people, and I think that combat abilities need to be balanced around combat mechanics instead of subjective aesthetic preferences. It's really not hard to understand the importance of that separation.

The appearance is one of the drawbacks. That you feel it is ridiculous has no bearing on this debate, many feel it is appropriate, both are just opinions.

You argue it is illogical, ok a valid point to debate but please realise by arguing this you are declaring appearance as not an acceptable drawback to the skill line. Fine then give up some passives and skills. Something has to balance. What is illogical is removing a drawback and not replacing it. All you really are doing is asking for more, not balance.

As I've been consistently saying, if vamp is overtuned then it should be balanced around combat-relevant features. Give up passives, add in more negatives, whatever. Doesn't matter to me how that would be done because I don't have any vamp characters (which I also already said, so it's pretty lol that you're saying I'm "asking for more"). Point is, combat-related balancing is unavoidable and objective. Having an aesthetic change be a "drawback" is completely subjective to begin with (since some people actually like the look) and it's also avoidable since you can use a polymorph or skin that you like to hide it.

The only conclusion we can draw from the above is that the looks are actually not intended to be part of the drawback, or ZOS wouldn't let you hide them. I know people like to pretend ZOS has no idea what they're doing, but they really aren't that dumb. And while we're at it, the recommendation so many people are giving ("just wear a skin!") completely concedes OP's point that hiding vampirism is acceptable and should be achievable. So every argument against OP's suggestion has been reduced to being illogical (if you say that the part of the drawback is the visual change) or inconsistent (if you think using a skin to hide it is the way to go). In both cases there is literally nothing to stop someone from wearing a skin that just hides vampirism except for it one, not being available yet, or two, you just want to be mean and deny people from having a nice thing. A huge number of responders seem to fall into the second category, and that's really sad.

logarifmik · July 2019

I apologize for interrupting, but...

Another update, another patch you run on top of your mount like loco.
Another update, another patch your horse have a weird anatomy.
Another update, another patch you can't apply tattoes with skins on beast races.
Another update, another patch your Cyrillic font looks like this: С ъ е ш ь е щ ё э т и х м я г к и х ф р а н ц у з с к и х б у л о к , д а в ы п е й ж е ч а ю . Pathetic!
Another update, another patch Outfit Slot Upgrade is not account wide and costs 1500 Crown.
Another update, another patch Nocturnal looks like a lowcost cosplayer from the USA.
Another update, another patch EU PC lags.
Another update, another patch housing slots limit is not increased.
Another update, another patch we have no clue what in Oblivion is going on with the narrative and its timeline.
Another update, another patch we're not able to choose the prologue start for our new characters.

Et cetera...

BrooksP · July 2019

Why would a visual aspect counterbalance a statistical or mechanics based drawback? Especially if that visual drawback can be hidden by a polymorph. Sounds like terrible balancing if you ask me, you can be OP as ***, but boy you ugly=Balanced.