Do you want to see the balance team run vet trials on the PTS?

Waffennacht · July 2019

No

SirAndy wrote: »

Actually, i want each of them to make a video of them soloing, let's say Darkshade Caverns I or City of Ash I on vet on the PTS.

No need for hard mode, i'm more interested to see their use of shields/healing/aoe/dot/sustain during a solo dungeon run.

I think that would be much more telling ...

You can like do that E Z Peazy I'd tell them just to slot ice heart (on Stam or mag) one offensive oriented set, some health and bone shield. 30k health should do it

If sorc roll with clannfear intop just for passives and a instant spot heal.

You'll clear all non DLC vet dungeons solo

SirAndy · July 2019

Yes

Waffennacht wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Actually, i want each of them to make a video of them soloing, let's say Darkshade Caverns I or City of Ash I on vet on the PTS.
No need for hard mode, i'm more interested to see their use of shields/healing/aoe/dot/sustain during a solo dungeon run.
I think that would be much more telling ...

You can like do that E Z Peazy

That's the whole point, i want to see just how easy (or not) it is for them ...

SirLeeMinion · July 2019

No

SirAndy wrote: »

Actually, i want each of them to make a video of them soloing, let's say Darkshade Caverns I or City of Ash I on vet on the PTS.

No need for hard mode, i'm more interested to see their use of shields/healing/aoe/dot/sustain during a solo dungeon run.

I think that would be much more telling ...

They have been killing off this type of game play for quite some time. This patch may not be the one that finally puts it into the grave, but I'm not sure there are any classes / builds left that will make it fun (vs. pull your hair out, but possible) the way it had been with pet sorc and werewolf. Maybe stamblade? ...dunno.

mairwen85 · July 2019

Yes

Turelus wrote: »

Not really, as I said in another thread I don't think it would give a clear indication of the systems.

I would rather see player trials guilds of various levels play it and see if they can still clear the content and where the issues are. They're the ones with hundreds of hours of gameplay invested into trials to gain the knowledge and skill not the devs.

Asking devs to play content is just a gotcha so people can go "well devs can't do it, so it's bad game design"

The dev team also consists of testers. At least every development team I have worked on. Someone must have green lit the upcoming changes from an integrated playability perspective. The PTS is not for that it's a pre live, staging/UAT environment. They can't be blind changing without testing, white knuckling till PTS, surely... Anyway, that team will have tested and approved the changes made in the most basic sense, and thus they would be the best suited to demonstrate how they factor into and impact general play, because they already know - - which informs future change in line with their 'vision'. Or, they should... If not, that cause for concern, no? Because otherwise that really will mean that no one at ZOS knows how the game is played, or what the hell their changes are doing.

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

Yes

mairwen85 wrote: »

They can't be blind changing without testing, white knuckling till PTS, surely...

Nope, that definitely doesn't sound like ZOS.

rotaugen454 · July 2019

Yes

U

Turelus wrote: »

Eraldus wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Not really, as I said in another thread I don't think it would give a clear indication of the systems.

I would rather see player trials guilds of various levels play it and see if they can still clear the content and where the issues are. They're the ones with hundreds of hours of gameplay invested into trials to gain the knowledge and skill not the devs.

Asking devs to play content is just a gotcha so people can go "well devs can't do it, so it's bad game design"

If they can't play the game based on their own balancing decisions, then it's bad game design.

They might be able to play it, but at what level.

People want HODOR level skill and completion from them without giving them the years of invested practice, team building and such.

As I said, people want it as they know they'll fail and can say "gotcha, it's a bad change as you can't do it" seeing if actually skilled players can do it would be a far better test of the changes.

I’m not asking for a world record speed no death run. I just want to see if they can simply finish one regardless of the number of deaths or speed with the changes they put in place. No HODOR level run, just a mid range group being able to actually do it. I’m worried there will be a lot of content that can’t be completed by people who don’t have several hours a week to train as a group and who don’t have nearly BIS gear. The leaderboards are for the elites, not just being able to complete the content all all.

srfrogg23 · July 2019

No

ezio45 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I would probably be as lost as them. "They seem to be doing ok and they're having fun. Only a few deaths here and there but no major roadblocks. I don't know why people wanted to see this so much. /shrug"

Meanwhile, min/maxers and parsers are losing their minds, "OMG DIDN'T YOU GUYS SEE THE MAG DK DID 5% LESS DPS THAN THE MAGBLADE??!?! WHY AREN'T YOU FIXING THIS??! COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE THAT THE BALANCE TEAM WON'T FIX THEIR GAME!!!!"

The point people are making is that they wouldn’t clear it, not that they do 5% less DPS. They would be a better indicator of the majority of the player base, as opposed to elite trial guilds that have been working together for years.

They might clear it. They might not. That content wasn't really meant to be completed on the first try, or the second...or, the tenth. It's a throwback to progression raiding. Obnoxiously challenging, long-term content meant to bring a sense of satisfaction that cannot be found in other types of content.

So, even if they didn't clear it, they will probably still say "working as intended" and y'all will still be as dissatisfied as ever. That content is intended for coordinated trial guilds who have been practicing and working together for a long time. It's not really meant for randos to just jump into and clear in an evening.

Er go, I am not interested in watching them run that content. I'd rather just play.

doesnt have to be vhof or vmol, or vcr +3.

Lets just see them do vcr +0 With things in there current state. Oh and they should have to it with a mixed group of classes. Lets see them a group with magbade or magden or magcro or nonpet magsorc. If all those classes are within a competitive range they should be able to do that.

Maybe I misunderstood this thread. I thought it was asking if I wanted to watch this. I didn't realize they were asking for my permission. I feel pretty important right now. I am going to have to go ahead and say No. Not for any reason in particular. Just because I can. That is all.

Ladislao · July 2019

No

As for me ESO Team gameplay streams are the most boring of all. I can watch the same from any other streamers or just do it by myself.

Minyassa · July 2019

Yes

I absolutely do and I want every second of it streamed live with NO editing for time or content. I want to see NB healers and Warden tanks and stamsorc DDs. I'd especially love if they were NOT BiS meta builds, and it would be even better if they didn't have a ton of time to practice and refine techniques. I want to see if NORMAL people will be able to do endgame content with a reasonable amount of preparation and practice, not people who play 10 hours a day 7 days a week and minmax as a full-time occupation.

Turelus · July 2019

No

mairwen85 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Not really, as I said in another thread I don't think it would give a clear indication of the systems.

I would rather see player trials guilds of various levels play it and see if they can still clear the content and where the issues are. They're the ones with hundreds of hours of gameplay invested into trials to gain the knowledge and skill not the devs.

Asking devs to play content is just a gotcha so people can go "well devs can't do it, so it's bad game design"

The dev team also consists of testers. At least every development team I have worked on. Someone must have green lit the upcoming changes from an integrated playability perspective. The PTS is not for that it's a pre live, staging/UAT environment. They can't be blind changing without testing, white knuckling till PTS, surely... Anyway, that team will have tested and approved the changes made in the most basic sense, and thus they would be the best suited to demonstrate how they factor into and impact general play, because they already know - - which informs future change in line with their 'vision'. Or, they should... If not, that cause for concern, no? Because otherwise that really will mean that no one at ZOS knows how the game is played, or what the hell their changes are doing.

True and agreed, however I still feel most people asking for a dev run are more interested in a "gotcha" than seeing how the devs overcome the changes.

If I'm wrong than apologies to those people, just that's the sense I have.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

Yes

Turelus wrote: »

True and agreed, however I still feel most people asking for a dev run are more interested in a "gotcha" than seeing how the devs overcome the changes.

If I'm wrong than apologies to those people, just that's the sense I have.

I feel like the People asking for the dev run are interested in seeing them attempt to overcome the changes, they just expect them to fail since the devs are no top raiding Group, neither are most of the People asking for a dev run tho.

rotaugen454 · July 2019

Yes

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

True and agreed, however I still feel most people asking for a dev run are more interested in a "gotcha" than seeing how the devs overcome the changes.

If I'm wrong than apologies to those people, just that's the sense I have.

I feel like the People asking for the dev run are interested in seeing them attempt to overcome the changes, they just expect them to fail since the devs are no top raiding Group, neither are most of the People asking for a dev run tho.

Yep, not in a top raiding group. But my point is that a mid range group that knows the mechanics and has the patience to endure wipes should be able to complete content. No speed run or no death run, but complete. We won’t get the skins or other shinies but get to check it off the list and get some gear. I’d like the devs to show you DON’T have to be in a top raiding guild to complete after these changes.

usmcjdking · July 2019

No

No, it proves absolutely nothing and is a bad move in general.

Other game companies have done this and it's proven to be an absolute PR nightmare with devs basically being like "I told you so" and the weak-minded community being absolutely soulcrushingly butthurt about being collectively wrong.

The developers don't need to be great or even good players, they need to understand how the game plays to a much greater degree than any other player.

DarcyMardin · July 2019

Yes

Yes, if only because every time I’ve watched them do one of the vet DLC dungeons on ESO Live, they make me feel like less of a no-chance-I’ll-ever-be-elite player. Plus, it’s usually funny as hell.

Shardan4968 · July 2019

Yes

Yes pls, I want to see their vMoL HM with dds in defensive setups.

p00tx · July 2019

Yes

kylewwefan wrote: »

This game has a very strange flavor to it. Groups either crush content to their will, easily bending it into submission. Or they struggle and struggle and want to throw in the towel and aren’t good enough.

There’s not much in between.

So the devs would either crush it so hard they would be accused of cheating, or they would fail. So they wouldn’t have so much to gain from demonstrating how awesome they are.

I think there is a misconception about how endgame raid groups work. These guys work together for hours each week, hammering out mechanics on carefully honed and perfected builds that took hours and hours to build, and then only show us the best results from their hours of trial and error (pun totally intended). It's not as easy as they make it look, and anyone who claims a role is too easy in HM DLC raids is very likely either getting super carried, or not doing their entire job (hint, heal spam is not healing in this game) which makes them think it's easy keeping up a steady rotation of buffs/debuffs, providing sustain, healing both proactively and reactively and staying alive during mechanics (try doing it on console with no add-on crutches), or is just part cyborg.

There is a whole layered middle ground where most of the player base lives, and for the overwhelming majority of us, the content is challenging and fun and we're constantly learning and adapting and improving (those of us with a little honesty and humility).

I truly believe the devs do not play their game in any significant way that even remotely qualifies them to make the sweeping changes they like to make. I think a select few players who only have a tiny portion of this games populations best interests in mind have the dev's ears, and have convinced them to make these very bad, very misguided decisions regarding healing. I will say that the role needed some refreshing, but this was just using a jackhammer to push in a thumbtack.

mongoLC · July 2019

Yes

Hell yes! For some of them I suspect it might be their first time playing.

Jaraal · July 2019

Yes

Yes, with the new werewolf "support class!"

Piehound · July 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Not really, as I said in another thread I don't think it would give a clear indication of the systems.

I would rather see player trials guilds of various levels play it and see if they can still clear the content and where the issues are. They're the ones with hundreds of hours of gameplay invested into trials to gain the knowledge and skill not the devs.

Asking devs to play content is just a gotcha so people can go "well devs can't do it, so it's bad game design"

The dev team also consists of testers. At least every development team I have worked on. Someone must have green lit the upcoming changes from an integrated playability perspective. The PTS is not for that it's a pre live, staging/UAT environment. They can't be blind changing without testing, white knuckling till PTS, surely... Anyway, that team will have tested and approved the changes made in the most basic sense, and thus they would be the best suited to demonstrate how they factor into and impact general play, because they already know - - which informs future change in line with their 'vision'. Or, they should... If not, that cause for concern, no? Because otherwise that really will mean that no one at ZOS knows how the game is played, or what the hell their changes are doing.

That is true. But, it also depends to some extent on test cases they run internally, size of test team, etc. Also how much UAT / PTS they do and how much they pay attention to the results. In any event, some stuff will be always be missed. It is the nature of the beast.

I'd also be lying if I didn't say end results also depend somewhat on how stubborn whoever is managing the project is. I've been on more than one project where internal testers and UAT have said "Don't go live with.." for management to go live with disastrous results.

JumpmanLane · July 2019

Yes

They won’t do it. They know they’d wipe without a “community” carry.

idk · July 2019

Turelus wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Not really, as I said in another thread I don't think it would give a clear indication of the systems.

I would rather see player trials guilds of various levels play it and see if they can still clear the content and where the issues are. They're the ones with hundreds of hours of gameplay invested into trials to gain the knowledge and skill not the devs.

Asking devs to play content is just a gotcha so people can go "well devs can't do it, so it's bad game design"

The dev team also consists of testers. At least every development team I have worked on. Someone must have green lit the upcoming changes from an integrated playability perspective. The PTS is not for that it's a pre live, staging/UAT environment. They can't be blind changing without testing, white knuckling till PTS, surely... Anyway, that team will have tested and approved the changes made in the most basic sense, and thus they would be the best suited to demonstrate how they factor into and impact general play, because they already know - - which informs future change in line with their 'vision'. Or, they should... If not, that cause for concern, no? Because otherwise that really will mean that no one at ZOS knows how the game is played, or what the hell their changes are doing.

True and agreed, however I still feel most people asking for a dev run are more interested in a "gotcha" than seeing how the devs overcome the changes.

If I'm wrong than apologies to those people, just that's the sense I have.

For those aware of how the devs fare in vet DLC dungeons your conclusion is the only one that fits. If they have problems clearing vet dungeons then we have no reason to expect they would fare better in vet trials with or without the changes.

I see this as rather pointless and can only serve to create meaningless drama.

Gilvoth · July 2019

Yes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Given that @ZOS_BrianWheeler says that his balance team has a "vision" for the game, I wanted to see that vision in action.

Who else would like to see the balance team at ZOS run vSS, vCR, vAS, and vHoF on the PTS? Show us how great your vision is guys! I want to see how much fun you'll be having. I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun.

I'd also love to see all the classes represented on your team. Some DK healers, some NB tanks, some magicka warden DDs. Show us how great this balance patch is at creating class parity!

im all for it but 2 things first.

1 - let them actually finish the balancing of all the classes before they do this.
and 2 - not only a trial (PvE), but also include 1 hour of PvP on all classes in Cryodiil, 30 day locked Main campaign, where the highest population is, and do it on characters that no one knows their names so they are not known as being developers and no one they are fighting against knows that its being filmed.

BlueRaven · July 2019

Yes

Turelus wrote: »

Not really, as I said in another thread I don't think it would give a clear indication of the systems.

I would rather see player trials guilds of various levels play it and see if they can still clear the content and where the issues are. They're the ones with hundreds of hours of gameplay invested into trials to gain the knowledge and skill not the devs.

Asking devs to play content is just a gotcha so people can go "well devs can't do it, so it's bad game design"

Why?

If my vet trial group went on to the PTS to see if they are having issues with the changes. And came on here and reported those issues, do you know what would happen? Absolutely nothing. Anything we "report" would be ignored.

At least if the devs can't do it they can see where the problems are and fix them, what we say is pointless. Let's see them do it.

And I agree with Uriel's assertion too, don't bring templar healers and DK tanks. Do it with sorc and NB healers. And maybe even a NB tank.

mairwen85 · July 2019

Yes

Piehound wrote: »

That is true. But, it also depends to some extent on test cases they run internally, size of test team, etc. Also how much UAT / PTS they do and how much they pay attention to the results. In any event, some stuff will be always be missed. It is the nature of the beast.

I'd also be lying if I didn't say end results also depend somewhat on how stubborn whoever is managing the project is. I've been on more than one project where internal testers and UAT have said "Don't go live with.." for management to go live with disastrous results.

I've been on teams like that. Luckily I'm a stubborn cow, and always push back if needed - - what a good dev manager or architect should.

Turelus wrote: »

True and agreed, however I still feel most people asking for a dev run are more interested in a "gotcha" than seeing how the devs overcome the changes.

If I'm wrong than apologies to those people, just that's the sense I have.

There is truth in both these responses and Tureleus, I get what you're saying - - it would set the door ajar for 'I told you' and shame mentality, but that's not what I think the value in this would be. I'd love to know how these changes factor into zos vision of pve, and how we are intended to be playing when clearly these changes are counter to current expectations - - is common play so far from the vision that it has to be wrangled and forcefully contained in this way? Show us then, don't tell us in patch notes and unexpected sweeping changes.

Eg roughly 2 thirds of most dd rotations is ground dots (some have a third one or additional st dot, delayed damage), so let's cut the output of those by ~40%, but let's design content that requires high offense, with swarming mobs, dps checks and one shot mechanics if you're too slow - - motivation: unknown.

This is at odds with the playerbase, and contradictory with zos own content delivery.

Let's not get started on healing. There's enough threads on that.

Removing unique calculation and standardising abilities functionally by type is a good move that will no doubt lead to better performance, but the method put forward here seems off center in execution.

ZOS should demo how it isn't. That's all I'm saying. At the very least communicate the intention ahead of time.

AlienSlof · July 2019

Yes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Given that @ZOS_BrianWheeler says that his balance team has a "vision" for the game, I wanted to see that vision in action.

Who else would like to see the balance team at ZOS run vSS, vCR, vAS, and vHoF on the PTS? Show us how great your vision is guys! I want to see how much fun you'll be having. I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun.

I'd also love to see all the classes represented on your team. Some DK healers, some NB tanks, some magicka warden DDs. Show us how great this balance patch is at creating class parity!

On hardmode too, if you please. Show us how to do it with your crappy changes in place, ZOS.

Sun7dance · July 2019

Yes

Yes of course and please do it on any console again when it is live!

AWinterWolf · July 2019

Yes

Let's see them tackle hard content with the healing nerfs and see how quickly their reverse their 'fixes'. Let's see them deal with all the bugs we have to deal with.

akl77 · July 2019

Yes

ZOS knows all mechanics and can put on all bis gears, it’ll be easy, but I doubt their thinking and skills in playing.

Peekachu99 · July 2019

Maybe it’s time to think outside the box and start building a sustain tank? I mean the damage ceiling is still so high that Ebon and Alk aren’t as necessary as tanks (and dps) can and should mostly take care of themselves.

The game is switching to a more GW2 style of soft-trinity and you can see this evidenced in the recent dungeon and encounter designs, which factor RNG mechanics and fast footwork on behalf of everyone. I pug Vet HM DLC dungeons daily as well as the occasional Trial and I never once need a healer to help me sustain my stam or mag pool. I just did a video of me solo killing the last boss on Vet Mazz because I simply could not die with two, yes two totems spawning and the rest of the team eating dirt. Especially with the sets on offer, a healer is supplemental to the experience and not something fundamental to your survival.

humpalicous · July 2019

Yes

They would wipe again and again and again, would be awesome.