Reducing DPS #s? Mission Accomplished!

msalvia · July 2019

First and foremost, bringing DPS in this game down to earth is a long time coming, and a welcome change. But this seems to go really, really far in one patch. Here's a running list of ways dps #s are going to decrease across the board; feel free to add if I forgot any.

1. Most obviously, AoEs are getting their damage reduced big time.
2. On top of reducing AoE damage, they're going UP in cost, so it'll cost more resources than before for even less damage
3. Healer nerfs to healing springs--the main source of Olorime buff--makes that buff less common, meaning less consistent uptimes. (combat prayer is gonna be used more, so it may be a wash overall)
4. Similarly, 1 orb at a time means way less resources restored, so way less sustained dps.
5. 1 orb at a time means way less synergies, so tanks wearing alkosh will likely not get high uptimes; ditto with Lokk for dps (rip hours of farming).
6. DPS will have to invest more in sustain, meaning less overall damage in dps builds.
7. Bleeds are signficantly worse now that they are mitigated by resistances.
8. All classes have seen some kind of reduction in damage abilities (perhaps most noticeably--and unjustly--DKs)

There are almost definitely more, but that's a lot in one patch. And given that the vast majority of dps don't know what a rotation is, this seems to target the wrong population. Elite players are gonna adapt and keep clearing hard stuff; unskilled players are gonna pull even lower numbers than usual, which just makes a bad pugging culture worse. It's already practically impossible to find enough competent dps for vet trials now...

Katahdin · July 2019

Yep they keep doing things to lower DPS but the trial groups wont lower thier standards to join the group.

So some people that are barely meeting those 70 and 80K requirements might not meet them any more and the end game trial community will get even smaller

They also wont lower the DPS required to complete harder trials and dungeons.
These nerfs will do nothing but keep lowering the floor and making it harder and harder for people to get the numbers groups want and harder and harder for people to clear content.

chaz · July 2019

Well to be fair, this game never ha any true balance.

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

Hard to imagine that people are viewing this as a good thing.Little they realize the less skill, the more effect it's going to have.

Red_Feather · July 2019

Maybe it'll cut down the number of videos showing off amazing parses using the same old caltrops, volley, beartrap.

msalvia · July 2019

Yeah, this is not gonna stop top-tier players from facerolling content. It's gonna stop low-skill players from clearing stuff they currently can given that dps is gonna be lower, healing is gonna be crappier, etc.

AcadianPaladin · July 2019

@msalvia I finally had time and went through the PTS first cut on nerfs. By Julianos' little teapot!

I quite agree with the concerns you stated in your last paragraph in that I expect the nerfs will widen the gap between pug scrubs and end game players.

I happen to be a solo player and basically hated everything I read in the PTS patch notes. Why do we work so hard to get weaker? Who thinks that's fun?

Royaji · July 2019

Red_Feather wrote: »

Maybe it'll cut down the number of videos showing off amazing parses using the same old caltrops, volley, beartrap.

And what do you think they will be replaced with? It's not like stamina has a lot of class skills to choose form...

leepalmer95 · July 2019

Maybe people will have to do mechanics and not just burn right through them.

D0PAMINE · July 2019

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Maybe people will have to do mechanics and not just burn right through them.

And what about DPS checks?

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

Last place DPS magicka warden getting gutted even further.

Mission accomplished. You've just driven away the 1% of players that still tried to make the class work.

Conduit0 · July 2019

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Maybe people will have to do mechanics and not just burn right through them.

Except its not just the people who can do 70k-80k dps that are getting nerfed, the people who only manage 20k-30k dps are also getting nerfed. That is the problem with sweeping across the board nerfs, it hurts everyone, not just the super elite 0.1%.

Runefang · July 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Last place DPS magicka warden getting gutted even further.

Mission accomplished. You've just driven away the 1% of players that still tried to make the class work.

They probably got hit the least hard?

Ackwalan · July 2019

Seems like just last week, people were complaining about content being to easy. The CP 810's were just blowing up the place.

CipherNine · July 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

Seems like just last week, people were complaining about content being to easy. The CP 810's were just blowing up the place.

sigh yet again another person just missing the whole point and throwing in conjecture that has nothing to do with the problem. It has nothing to do with that at all.
The issues with these changes have been stated in this thread alone. But you still can't understand that then its pointless to explain it further.

Ackwalan · July 2019

CipherNine wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Seems like just last week, people were complaining about content being to easy. The CP 810's were just blowing up the place.

sigh yet again another person just missing the whole point and throwing in conjecture that has nothing to do with the problem. It has nothing to do with that at all.
The issues with these changes have been stated in this thread alone. But you still can't understand that then its pointless to explain it further.

Power creep was in full force. ZOS tried to leave CP at 810, but it was already to late for that. SO what do you do ? You reset the combat abilities. It is easier then trying to rebuild all the content which just creates a larger skill gap. But if you can understand that.

Onefrkncrzypope · July 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Seems like just last week, people were complaining about content being to easy. The CP 810's were just blowing up the place.

sigh yet again another person just missing the whole point and throwing in conjecture that has nothing to do with the problem. It has nothing to do with that at all.
The issues with these changes have been stated in this thread alone. But you still can't understand that then its pointless to explain it further.

Power creep was in full force. ZOS tried to leave CP at 810, but it was already to late for that. SO what do you do ? You reset the combat abilities. It is easier then trying to rebuild all the content which just creates a larger skill gap. But if you can understand that.

Uh to be fair it was not until Lokke that Stam was getting over 90k easily(iron atro also helped) and the 100k mark was busted by a class that has the most ludicrously powerful buff in the game and a passive that is barely under vma dagger buff.

karekiz · July 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

Power creep was in full force. ZOS tried to leave CP at 810, but it was already to late for that. SO what do you do ? You reset the combat abilities. It is easier then trying to rebuild all the content which just creates a larger skill gap. But if you can understand that.

If powercreep was an absolute issue then why introduce the Necro ult that basically increases all dmg by 30% across the board on burn?

Your right you don't need to rebuild all content to fix skill gap.

You need to buff the skills and reduce the skills/abilities that are primary concerns for skill gap. Light Attacks and sets like Reliquen.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · July 2019

What's wrong with some power creep? Increasing your character's power is literally the reason to keep playing the game . . .

Kidgangster101 · July 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

What's wrong with some power creep? Increasing your character's power is literally the reason to keep playing the game . . .

And here I thought playing the game to have fun was the reason to keep playing the game 😉 your real progression should me learning a specific mechanic and executing it so you can win, not have high enough DPS to skip the mechanic

They are doing nerfs like this because you guys don't want CP touched at all, next will probably be gear sets getting nerfed in 3 months after the next pts cycle to further lower damage.

karekiz · July 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

They are doing nerfs like this because you guys don't want CP touched at all, next will probably be gear sets getting nerfed in 3 months after the next pts cycle to further lower damage.

ZoS already stated CP was going to be tuned in the future.

They didn't stop it because "they drastically needed to balance the new 30 CP points", but they are going to redo the whole system anyway so their isn't any point to increasing it.

From what it looks like to me:

Racial re balance -> Active re balance -> Passive re-balance -> CP revamp. Its essentially rebooting the game combat system in 4 stages.

Parrot1986 · July 2019

I’m ok with the AOE damage reduction change, doesn’t make sense it AOE skill does the some of highest single target damage.

Not sure on increasing the cost of it as well but duration has been increased on some as well so it may even out or be negligible.

Healing springs change unlikely to impact Olo uptime as the buff duration is so long. If it lasted 6-10 seconds maybe.

Orbs is a stupid change, one of the worse. Might force absorb Stam/mag glyph back bar and then your sorted though if it does impact sustain. If anything this change will add more pressure on healers IMO and impact them more than DDs. Interesting to see if it does impact Lokk uptime though.

Bleed changes shouldn’t impact raiding teams where resistance is already close to zero. This for me impacts PVP and a good change.

What I don’t get about the class damage reduction is they spent 2 patches buffing spear shards for Templar’s to then just nerf it again. Smacks of not having a real plan.

The main issue for me is Stam necro remained untouched for most part, especially the ultimate which is the main reason we have such a crap patch in terms of diversity. Add that to the OP sets keep introducing which inflate damage so much to give us an excuse to farm content then those issues still need to be addressed.

Sergg007 · July 2019

need to reduce influence of rotation on damage. it's dramatically huge right now!

Vercingetorix · July 2019

Katahdin wrote: »

Yep they keep doing things to lower DPS but the trial groups wont lower thier standards to join the group.

So some people that are barely meeting those 70 and 80K requirements might not meet them any more and the end game trial community will get even smaller

They also wont lower the DPS required to complete harder trials and dungeons.
These nerfs will do nothing but keep lowering the floor and making it harder and harder for people to get the numbers groups want and harder and harder for people to clear content.

A simple solution to most of what you said is to simply not play with those blowhards. I refuse to do a dummy test on principle that a dummy parse isn't representative of an actual boss fight, yet I've farmed out every vet trial in the game with the exception of Sunspire at this point. If a toxic elitist appears, I just leave and find another group that isn't populated with a-holes. It takes more time to find a group, but I don't have to put up with the toxicity.

It's funny - these are the same elitists that are struggling to find folks for their guilds (I see trial guild recruiting frequently in chat) and these elitists will eventually begin attacking each other over marginal DPS losses and the problem will solve itself when their guild goes inactive.

rotaugen454 · July 2019

This didn’t raise the floor and lower the ceiling, it lowered both. The lower half of players will get hit hard. Good luck with the DLC dungeons lower half players!

msalvia · July 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

What's wrong with some power creep? Increasing your character's power is literally the reason to keep playing the game . . .

Power creep isn't about individual skill progression. It's about whether the overall power level in the game surpasses the difficulty of the content.

msalvia · July 2019

Sergg007 wrote: »

need to reduce influence of rotation on damage. it's dramatically huge right now!

I don't know about this--rotation is kinda what makes or breaks a dps. I think what they need to do is limit crit damage. Probably gonna start a new post about that.

Chadak · July 2019

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

@msalvia I finally had time and went through the PTS first cut on nerfs. By Julianos' little teapot!

I quite agree with the concerns you stated in your last paragraph in that I expect the nerfs will widen the gap between pug scrubs and end game players.

I happen to be a solo player and basically hated everything I read in the PTS patch notes. Why do we work so hard to get weaker? Who thinks that's fun?

Oh hey. You're somone that remembers that the foundational point of a game is that it's supposed to be fun?

Someone should notify the devs. I don't think anyone ever told them.

FearlessOne_2014 · July 2019

rotaugen454 wrote: »

This didn’t raise the floor and lower the ceiling, it lowered both. The lower half of players will get hit hard. Good luck with the DLC dungeons lower half players!

Yes it did, by a lot no less.

MooseKnuckles88 · July 2019

karekiz wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

They are doing nerfs like this because you guys don't want CP touched at all, next will probably be gear sets getting nerfed in 3 months after the next pts cycle to further lower damage.

ZoS already stated CP was going to be tuned in the future.

They didn't stop it because "they drastically needed to balance the new 30 CP points", but they are going to redo the whole system anyway so their isn't any point to increasing it.

From what it looks like to me:

Racial re balance -> Active re balance -> Passive re-balance -> CP revamp. Its essentially rebooting the game combat system in 4 stages.

I thought I was the only one thinking logically and critically about this!! Everyone is so wrapped up in the next update, but not seeing anything past that. All these things occur in stages to take it slow and prepare us for something like a massive change to the cp system, that stuff just doesn't happen in one update.

Onefrkncrzypope · July 2019

karekiz wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

They are doing nerfs like this because you guys don't want CP touched at all, next will probably be gear sets getting nerfed in 3 months after the next pts cycle to further lower damage.

ZoS already stated CP was going to be tuned in the future.

They didn't stop it because "they drastically needed to balance the new 30 CP points", but they are going to redo the whole system anyway so their isn't any point to increasing it.

From what it looks like to me:

Racial re balance -> Active re balance -> Passive re-balance -> CP revamp. Its essentially rebooting the game combat system in 4 stages.

So you are saying it is like:

racial shuffle bis to the least played race -> make a class an exact fit for the BiS in current meta and cause extreme creep, wiggle the class metas by making dks double bar, nightblade become tanks -> nerf everything because major vulnerability was a bad idea -> morrowind like cp change(because that was such a good idea that they have been trying to fix sustain for years now from just changing the green tree)

Without the necro the last two patches was just wiggling some variables. Small paint strokes on a painting. This patch is pouring a paint bucket onto the canvass. Its too drastic, if they want lower dps, Idk easiest way to fix that is lower pen passive for mag and nerf lokke. Look to see if that is the numbers you want and then if it isn't try something small again. Here is a parable:

You have a see-saw. One side is content and the other is player power. Right now player power(at the top of the bell curve) is a bit to heavy to be lifted by content. Its close so you take the shoes off the player or add a rock to content. You don't just cut off the legs of the player. Just saying.