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Scalebreaker Patch Notes (Week 1): Most Of It Is Okay But... (PvE)

Nefas
Nefas
Class Representative
Thank you for reading. My opinion will most likely be very unpopular with my PvE endgame colleagues as of now concerning the v5.1.0 patch notes https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483597/pts-patch-notes-v5-1-0#latest

..but within the context of the notes themselves, I see no actual detriment/horrid thing in the majority of the update that many people seem to be overreacting to; some are even calling the entirety of the patch notes worse than the notorious Morrowind/"Nerfmire" patches which imo is mostly inaccurate. There are definitely things to be outraged over or even quit the game over which I will go over later in this post but it is disappointing to me that a large number of people suddenly lost an objective view or their civil manners simply because "change".

To clarify I am not defending all of the patch notes (hence the "but"), just like a lot of people I am frustrated by the ambitious business strategy ZOS announced back in 2017 to release 2 DLCs, 1 Expansion/Trial and 1 major gameplay update every year. Nor am I satisfied with how much changes in the game with little to no fixes. The quarterly push of content in particular has introduced/reintroduced an outstanding amount of bugs and performance issues that need to be addressed sooner rather than later. The constant duct-taping that happens every incremental patch for the entire game for absolutely no reason at times also needs to have a long-term solution thought out.

One must forgive me if I am especially skeptical of the v5.1.0 patch notes' fixes for various things including the desync issue that affected overland, PvE and PvP areas of the game. It is disappointing to me that this issue that kept occurring and pushed a lot of people to the edge for 4-5 weeks in a significant PR patch like Elsweyr will not be 'fixed' until next patch.

I understand that a major shakeup is also not appealing to a lot of players. Yes, after a while indeed it's tiring to keep up with the sweeping changes implemented by ZOS. However I am not writing this post to argue here or there as the fact remains: ZOS is intent on going through with this major gameplay update and the best things we can do as the playerbase is to voice our opinions fervently and hope they see the validity in our feedback.

The most ridiculous issues in my opinion, some of which have already been touched on by others from our community, in regards to the PTS Week 1 notes that needs everyone's attention are as follows:

The Healing Changes Strips Down The Healer Role (Not A Build, Not A Class but the entire Role)

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The above healing changes make no sense especially for PvE. For whatever reason, the reasoning behind why the combat team updated Entropy was applied to Grand Healing/Healing Springs/Illustrious Healing:
Redesigned this ability [Entropy] and its morphs to operate as a DoT, rather than the strange HoT/DoT/Buff hybrid it previously was.

While the reasoning is sound for Entropy as it literally was a HoT/DoT/Buff hybrid, the same cannot be said for Grand Healing. It is not a buff nor DoT, it is strictly just healing. I don't know why something you can spam is suddenly considered a "hybrid", we might as well apply this logic to every other spammable skill in the game but that wouldn't make sense. The biggest problem in regards to the Grand Healing update is that you can only have this one AoE heal active at a time. Just one. You do not have to be a Trials-only raider to realize the implications this will have for PvE or even, yes, the PvP'ers who have to do PvE. In a dungeon alone, you have 3 others to heal as a healer. Imagine due to mechanics or the nature of the fight that your group is scattered. Two on one side and one on another. Who do you choose to heal with this skill? This goes even further when you apply this to Trials, particularly progression groups that struggle to stay coordinated.

The longer duration of the Grand Healing in addition to the cap of 1 heal AoE also dumbs down the healer role significantly, we now leave even less room for error in terms of overhealing for healers and this starts restricting class options. You will now want to bring a Templar/Warden more than you would a Sorc/other class healer as the two former classes have additional healing AoEs.

Even more puzzling is the sudden cost increase to Regeneration when it's already capped at 1 person. For the most part, this will affect vAS raids somewhat on part of the Group Healer but we will probably see negative consequences for vCR HM on part of the Kite Healer at times. Other than those scenarios it wasn't used by a lot of experienced healers. All in all, it's not the end of the world for Regeneration but why the skill was even touched is beyond me.

gIhf4oD.jpg

As explained why this is arguably the worst thing about the patch notes and protested by many of the game's finest healers here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483893/scalebreaker-pts-patch-notes-5-1-0-an-end-game-healer-opinion-on-the-matter

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483659/you-can-only-have-1-orb-active-at-a-time-why-this-should-not-go-live/p1

https://www.change.org/p/zenimax-pve-players-against-1-orb-orb-helmets-protests?recruited_by_id=98876ff0-a0ad-11e9-a374-516eb4085c0c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

this change is something I would be incredibly surprised to see on the Week 2 PTS Patch Notes as it's objectively so ridiculous and mind-boggling that I have no idea why anyone would think it's a good idea to even put on the Week 1 PTS Patch Notes. I suspect that whoever thought of this for Week 1 is either so disconnected from the actual game or wishes to draw so much outrage to this one thing that people don't pay attention to the rest of the patch notes thereby letting other damaging things through to Live.

To summarize: limiting one Necrotic/Energy Orb per caster significantly removes the rewarding group play prevalent in ESO's PvE content. You now have 2 healers trying to supply at least 10 other people in a raid with just one orb each. The very idea of it is hilarious as this one change will pretty much be a mirror of Morrowind's unpleasant heavy attacking meta and shoehorn people into specific builds. No one likes heavy attacking. No healer likes it, no tank likes it and ESPECIALLY no DPS likes it. No one likes holding down their left mouse click button just because they can't sustain a light attack rotation. There is a reason why so many people, not just in the endgame community, left the PvE scene/the game back in Morrowind. Progression guilds literally died and no one could fill raids.

This 'drought' of players would last until roughly 2 patches later (Clockwork City).

Sustain is already being nerfed with the increase in cost to most of the abilities across the board, we should not make the same mistake by hitting sustain too hard just as we did in Morrowind. Was the removal of stam cost/mag cost reduction CP necessary? Absolutely. Was hitting all the armor passives/removing a synergy/raising skill cost necessary? No, not at all.

But I digress, going back to the healing aspect, we are now left with 1 orb, 1 healing AoE and 1 regeneration. With this orb change in particular, healers are no longer rewarded for buffing/debuffing or doing other things for their group while their orbs go out. There is no more rewarding the healers for pre-emptively healing the group or making good decisions on pumping out orbs at the correct time. There is no more rewarding healers who do very well at layering their heals. All this does is dumb down the role and strip healers of their unique combat identity. Why someone at ZOS would be fine with taking good elements of combat away from the game is beyond me but instead their "compensation" for capping one orb per caster is:
Decreased the speed to 2 meters per second from 3 meters per second to help it deal damage or heal targets more reliably as the orb passes them.

These changes do not, in any way, make the healer role any more difficult nor enjoyable as it simply forces artificial difficulty onto the rest of the group in a lot of PvE scenarios.

Healers will now be forced to run as many different HoTs as possible if these horrid changes go through as you must remember that the healing done was also nearly halved for Grand Healing. There are many situations where groups need intensive healing (vHoF execute, vCR execute, vMoL execute, vSO execute, just to name a few) and the changes don't really take that into account either.

"So why not run more healers?"

I've seen this question posted here and elsewhere but the short answer is: running more healers would lengthen the fights, generally the faster a fight is with better DPS the easier it is on the group. Having more healers does not necessarily equate to "safer". Running more healers would put achievement runs at risk such as hard mode/speed run/no death. No DPS is going to be like "hey I want to heal instead of doing fun DPS!" so you're going to have roster issues in many raid guilds/groups.
Edited by Nefas on July 7, 2019 9:31PM
  • Nefas
    Nefas
    Class Representative
    Caltrops (Goes Against the Patch Notes' Purpose)

    rBc4fxF.jpg

    While I am fine with a general nerf to address power creep or if ZOS can't find other ways to increase what they view as difficulty, I am confused as to why Caltrops specifically received such a huge nerf in relation to the other damage AoEs particularly when no one really asked for it. Did PvP'ers complain about Caltrops ticking too high on them as they took a resource? Did Stam DPS in PvE not like their parses? Regardless, the overall strategy when Brian Wheeler took over as lead combat designer was to standardize things then go from there after Wrobel left the position. These patch notes do a good job of standardizing timers and such but they failed to realize that by significantly reducing the damage of Caltrops while retaining a relatively high cost for it, all they did was do what they didn't want to do: they made it a dead skill.

    The same logic that went into "updating" the racial passives went to work on Caltrops as well. All you're doing is shifting the meta around, that's it.

    After the ~60% damage nerf to the DoT + lack of an initial hit, no Stam DPS in PvE are going to ever use Razor Caltrops nor will anyone use Anti-Cavalry Caltrops. It's just not worth the stamina loss for a mediocre AoE.
    Reduced the base cost to 2984 from 3510.
    Increased the snare potency to 50% from 30%.
    Reduced the damage per tick by approximately 60%, and decreased the duration to 10 seconds from 12 seconds. These changes apply to all morphs.
    Anti-Cavalry Caltrops (morph): Decreased the base duration to 12 seconds, which ranks up to 15 seconds at Rank IV. It also no longer increases in damage per rank.
    Razor Caltrops (morph): This ability no longer deals initial hit damage, but instead applies Major Fracture to enemies hit by the DoT, up to 4 seconds at Rank IV.

    The Major Fracture effect of the proposed Razor Caltrops in the patch notes also make no sense from a DPS perspective, perhaps for solo instances like vMA at best but this would require us to take up another slot in exchange for it..If it is the combat team's intent for Caltrops to be used more as a support skill on tanks then they don't realize that as a tank, I would not use Razor Caltrops for a few reasons I will list here:

    1) It's an unnecessary stamina drain.
    2) If I'm a Warden, Necro or Dragonknight tank, I already have access to AOE Major Fracture.
    3) There are other sources of Major Fracture such as NMG.
    4) AOE Major Fracture is often not needed anyway as things die too fast in a majority of PvE content.



    Guild Trader Multi-Bidding Is A Good Idea but 10 Is TOO MUCH

    This issue has been raised here as well: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/482926/guild-bid-on-up-to-10-different-guild-trader-locations-each-week-with-update-23/p1

    and every Trade GM I've talked to thus far agrees that this is rocking the boat too much. While yes, the backup system is a good idea, having 2 or 3 trader bid spots at most would be good. NOT TEN. Ten total trader bid spots diminishes the blind bid system, makes it so that there is absolutely no risk to start aggressive trade wars, leads to an unnecessary increase in competition across the board forcing higher dues, this helps bigger guilds more than it does smaller ones and it doesn't even address the issue of shadow/troll guilds on both PC/Console that will also receive the same amount of Guild Trader bid slots.

    We are instead assured in regards to the last point that:
    The restrictions of needing 50 guild members and having permission to bid still apply.

    This not a restriction. It's more of a wooden fence you can hop over. I touch more on this topic in this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdutT08ZbtU



    Seemingly Random Nerfs (Nightblades/Dragonknights)

    IIxU7sf.jpg

    I personally have no idea why Nightblades' Twisting Paths were nerfed. Yet again I ask myself, what PvP'er can't simply get out of it? What nerfed Magblade DPS complained that it was hitting too hard after they fell down the DPS rankings? Right now Magblades have joined Magicka Wardens, Magicka Dragonknights and Magicka Necromancers as the least desired magicka DPS classes to play as of the Elsweyr patch. Right now the top classes are Magicka Sorcerer and Magicka Templar. I see absolutely no reason why Twisting Path had to be touched.

    Same thing for the DK nerfs to their skill cost + DoT damage. They haven't been in a good spot PvE-wise for quite a while and it's unfortunate that the PvP balance takes precedence over this.

    That's pretty much it for now, thank you for reading.

    I really do hope just like a lot of people that these PTS notes will improve and that the combat devs actually listen to the feedback. I strongly urge everyone to keep voicing their opinions, go to the PTS once it's up and test it all for yourself/show the devs the dismal results of some of the changes. If the ridiculous changes on Scalebreaker PTS Week 1 stay (which I doubt, in particular the orb change), then yeah there is no more point in providing player feedback at that point. @Gilliamtherogue @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhTEpqUX_b8&feature=youtu.be
  • leepalmer95
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    Pretty sure the caltraps nerf was the make the skill more of a pvp skill again. Which is what it's supposed to be.


    Originally it was a very large low dmg aoe snare which you'd throw over large groups or breaches but zos decided one day to randomly take it away and reduce it's snare, massively reduce its AOE and make it a pve dot skill.

    Pvp only has 2 skill lines really so I agree that the skills there should be catered towards before useful in pvp before pve.

    This kind of brings it back in line which it being a pvp utility skill.


    In regards to healer well healing less so to speak.

    Maybe this is zos's way to reduce powercreep. Maybe DD may have to slot some sort of aoe heal for the group now, reduce their dps. The content will be doable.



    Edited by leepalmer95 on July 7, 2019 9:15PM
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • Nefas
    Nefas
    Class Representative
    Pretty sure the caltraps nerf was the make the skill more of a pvp skill again. Which is what it's supposed to be.

    Originally it was a very large low dmg aoe snare which you'd throw over large groups or breaches but zos decided one day to randomly take it away and reduce it's snare, massively reduce its AOE and make it a pve dot skill.

    Pvp only has 2 skill lines really so I agree that the skills there should be catered towards before useful in pvp before pve.

    This kind of brings it back in line which it being a pvp utility skill.

    So Purge, Vigor, Guard should also not be used in PvE? At that point should Undaunted skills and such that you get from questing/PvE'ing not be geared towards PvP as well? There can be a balance specifically for Caltrops for both PvE/PvP as there is for other skills. But the main point is that this is more or less a dead skill now for PvE.
  • leepalmer95
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    Nefas wrote: »
    Pretty sure the caltraps nerf was the make the skill more of a pvp skill again. Which is what it's supposed to be.

    Originally it was a very large low dmg aoe snare which you'd throw over large groups or breaches but zos decided one day to randomly take it away and reduce it's snare, massively reduce its AOE and make it a pve dot skill.

    Pvp only has 2 skill lines really so I agree that the skills there should be catered towards before useful in pvp before pve.

    This kind of brings it back in line which it being a pvp utility skill.

    So Purge, Vigor, Guard should also not be used in PvE? At that point should Undaunted skills and such that you get from questing/PvE'ing not be geared towards PvP as well? There can be a balance specifically for Caltrops for both PvE/PvP as there is for other skills. But the main point is that this is more or less a dead skill now for PvE.

    Not saying they shouldn't be used, of course there is crossover.

    But a pvp skill being more useful for pvp isn't something to complain about.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • RogueShark
    RogueShark
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    You will now want to bring a Templar/Warden more than you would a Sorc/other class healer as the two former classes have additional healing AoEs.

    They were starting to do a fairly good job at letting every class be a capable healer in end-game content (not best in slot or meta, but capable). I feel like this is a huge step backward, because classes like sorcs severely lack any real class healing (besides twilight, which is not an acceptable spammable).
    Complete regression. :/
    Edited by RogueShark on July 7, 2019 9:22PM
    PC NA
    Will heal DPS for memes.
  • Nefas
    Nefas
    Class Representative
    RogueShark wrote: »
    You will now want to bring a Templar/Warden more than you would a Sorc/other class healer as the two former classes have additional healing AoEs.

    They were starting to do a fairly good job at letting every class be a capable healer in end-game content (not best in slot or meta, but capable). I feel like this is a huge step backward, because classes like sorcs severely lack any real class healing (besides twilight, which is not an acceptable spammable).
    Complete regression. :/

    Let's just hope they retract these awful changes.
  • Corpier
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    I can tolerate when an MMO pointlessly shifts the meta. Its their prerogative to shake the snowglobe or wipe out the sandcastles so people stay busy farming/trying different things.

    What I can't tolerate is when an MMO isn't fun. These patch notes indicate nerfs to healing, sustain, and cleave damage. I can understand and adapt to the cleave changes, and even think it might be interesting with all the changing AoEs to commit to either single target or AoE dps depending on the fight. The Caltrops change sucks and it shouldn't be turned into a dead skill, but its not what has me mining salt on the forums.

    What I'm willing to quit the game over is the nerfs to healing and sustain. The bigger issue being sustain. I have no doubt that the change to Healing Springs will be felt in content like vHoF, vMoL HM, and vCR HM, but what has me most worried is the proposed change to Orbs. Springs be damned, but Orbs matter! I went through Morrowind. Heavy attacks weren't fun then and they won't be fun now! Endgame was a ghost town in that patch. If it goes live I'm not sticking around for that again.
    Edited by Corpier on September 10, 2019 1:35AM
    @Corpier | PC/NA CP1300+

    My Characters:
    AD
    A Príorí: Highelf - Magicka Sorcerer
    DC
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Nightblade
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Sorcerer
    EP
    A Fortiori: Darkelf - Magicka Nightblade
    A Posteriori: Darkelf - Magicka Dragonknight
    Bertha Ironsides: Imperial - Dragonknight Tank
    Corpier: Breton - Magicka Templar
    Corpíer: Orc - Stamina Templar
    CorpÌer: Orc - Stamina Warden
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Necromancer
    Logen'Bloody-Nine'Fingers: Orc - Stamina Dragonknight
  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    My issue is with Werewolf changes. I understand that most of them are aimed at PvP, but keep in mind that we also have PvE. The key goal is to find a compromise here:

    The issue:

    Pack leader: morph no longer apply a bleed to enemies hit with Light Attacks, or deal area damage with Heavy Attacks.
    - The Direwolves can no longer be targeted or die.
    - Reduced the damage of the Direwolves’ Gnash attack by approximately 70%, and decreased the frequency of its attack speed to 2 seconds from 1 second.
    - Gnash now applies Minor Maim to enemies hit for 4 seconds.
    - Reduced the damage of the Lunge attack by approximately 60%.
    - Lunge will now be cast every 10 seconds, rather than have a 25% chance every 3 seconds to cast.
    - Lunge will now snare enemies hit by 30% for 4 seconds.
    - The Direwolves will now return to your side if you travel far enough away from them, since they are lost and confused without their leader of the pack.

    1. Untargetable pets means that they wont be able to tank DMG in solo PvE. The whole reason to pick this morph is now gone.
    2. Significantly Less DMG overall with a very weak "compensation" (close to nothing to be exact).
    3. Extremely unreliable utility Pack Leader is supposed to offer.
    Pets now apply de-buffs (Minor Maim & snare). But those are pets. They are "derpy" they may attack the enemy or may not. Their AI is simply dumb. They might just attack 1 enemy (lower dmg means they will never kill a mob on their own) and will continue to debuff on 1 or 2 enemies at best. Also bosses are immune to snares, which makes snare de-buff pointless.
    This makes the whole "pet de-buff" extremely unreliable and very hard to control. In short - not worthy dmg sacrifices Pack Leader morph has when compared to Werewolf Berserker morph.
    4. No use-case. The Pack Leader will simply have no content it can be used at. Werewolf Berserker will be superior in every possible scenario or type of content (PvP or PvE). Whenever solo or in group, Pack Leader wont be used by any one.
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on July 7, 2019 9:34PM
  • Casul
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    Perhaps they are doing the healing nerf to promote tanks to wear more defense oriented support sets. Compared to running alkosh/torugs they may want people to run sets like lunar bastion, imperium, or meritorious service.

    That would increase the effective health of group members and make healing easier right?

    PvP needs more love.
  • Nefas
    Nefas
    Class Representative
    BuildMan wrote: »
    Perhaps they are doing the healing nerf to promote tanks to wear more defense oriented support sets. Compared to running alkosh/torugs they may want people to run sets like lunar bastion, imperium, or meritorious service.

    That would increase the effective health of group members and make healing easier right?

    At the cost of reducing the healer role to a pitiful state, that's not a good exchange. They could easily amp up future or current content for such things.
  • xeNNNNN
    xeNNNNN
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    I am so glad so many other healers are as pissed about orbs and springs as I am right now. Feel almost vindicated.

    I completely agree with the general assessment that whoever came up with the idea to reduce it to 1 orb per duration (which will effectively mean whenever you cast another orb and the other hasn't been taken it will cancel it out rendering the orb effectively dead as its usefulness has essentially been thrown into the grave.) has never healed properly in the game before. Let alone at end-game.

    I want to say that they know what they are doing but after this? Yeah no. This is just flat out a bad change. A horrible one. As if healers didn't already have a stress fest from other demanding roles due to resources and synergies.

    I am also wondering how they imagine tanks will combat bleeds now without the support of healers apart from you know roll dodging certain things. The HoT from orbs is so helpful for tanks and players in general.

    Then there is the springs issue like.....keeping everyone in that individual springs is just going to be painful. Reduced healing is a bit too much nearing 50% (I would of done 25% and played around with that first) but 1 active at 1 time is just ridiculous. I hope this gets trashed and canned and does not become a trend because this is one hell of a bad trend to follow for dealing with power creep.

    Edited by xeNNNNN on July 8, 2019 4:06AM
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • Seraphayel
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    Nefas wrote: »
    BuildMan wrote: »
    Perhaps they are doing the healing nerf to promote tanks to wear more defense oriented support sets. Compared to running alkosh/torugs they may want people to run sets like lunar bastion, imperium, or meritorious service.

    That would increase the effective health of group members and make healing easier right?

    At the cost of reducing the healer role to a pitiful state, that's not a good exchange. They could easily amp up future or current content for such things.

    Who is reducing the healer role to a pitiful state? ZOS or the players?

    On one point I agree: there should be a compensation for the loss of multiple layers of Greater Healing as this is a nerf to every class that lacks a spammable class healing skill.

    Healers, as we’ve read now several times, were reduced to be an Orb-provider. That’s it. So tell me again, ZOS is limiting healers? Or are players limiting healers by putting so much weight onto one single ability that basically makes or breaks a healer? Be honest about this.

    By the way, Fighter‘s Guild got a new healing ability. We don’t know yet what exactly it will be but it’s another AoE HoT. So there’s at least something to compensate the changes made to Greater Healing.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • BennyButton
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Healers, as we’ve read now several times, were reduced to be an Orb-provider. That’s it. So tell me again, ZOS is limiting healers? Or are players limiting healers by putting so much weight onto one single ability that basically makes or breaks a healer? Be honest about this.

    I feel very sorry for how you've been playing a healer, it sounds really boring.
  • Seraphayel
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Healers, as we’ve read now several times, were reduced to be an Orb-provider. That’s it. So tell me again, ZOS is limiting healers? Or are players limiting healers by putting so much weight onto one single ability that basically makes or breaks a healer? Be honest about this.

    I feel very sorry for how you've been playing a healer, it sounds really boring.

    You know what sounds boring? Shooting Orbs and placing Springs like there’s no tomorrow because they did the trick up until... now (U23). I’ve never felt bored as a healer yet as it’s usuall the most dynamic role in the game.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • BennyButton
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Healers, as we’ve read now several times, were reduced to be an Orb-provider. That’s it. So tell me again, ZOS is limiting healers? Or are players limiting healers by putting so much weight onto one single ability that basically makes or breaks a healer? Be honest about this.

    I feel very sorry for how you've been playing a healer, it sounds really boring.

    You know what sounds boring? Shooting Orbs and placing Springs like there’s no tomorrow because they did the trick up until... now (U23). I’ve never felt bored as a healer yet as it’s usuall the most dynamic role in the game.

    "Healers are healers and not supporters / buffers. That’s the biggest problem in this game, healers are degraded to buff bots. That should have never been the case and that’s why the changes to Orb are actually good. Giving you buffs and resources is not the job of a healer."

    So how do you heal? Can you provide me with a full explanation of which skills you use and how you use them?

    Thanks
  • Fortunatto
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Healers, as we’ve read now several times, were reduced to be an Orb-provider. That’s it. So tell me again, ZOS is limiting healers? Or are players limiting healers by putting so much weight onto one single ability that basically makes or breaks a healer? Be honest about this.
    By the way, Fighter‘s Guild got a new healing ability. We don’t know yet what exactly it will be but it’s another AoE HoT. So there’s at least something to compensate the changes made to Greater Healing.


    Hmm, mind if I ask, how many vetHM trials did you actually done, if ever?...
    | Immortal Redeemer | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Tick-Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart | Unchained | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | PC EU
  • Seraphayel
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    "Healers are healers and not supporters / buffers. That’s the biggest problem in this game, healers are degraded to buff bots. That should have never been the case and that’s why the changes to Orb are actually good. Giving you buffs and resources is not the job of a healer."

    Once again: that statement is my general opinion about healers in MMORPGs. It’s the way a healer in my eyes should function. It’s neither how I am playing in ESO nor how I want others to play in ESO.
    Edited by Seraphayel on July 7, 2019 11:00PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Ragnaroek93
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    Can't really say much about PvE but the Rapid Regen change is for sure a change for PvP. It's pretty much a magicka vigor now which sounds good but needs to be tested.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • akl77
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    "Healers are healers and not supporters / buffers. That’s the biggest problem in this game, healers are degraded to buff bots. That should have never been the case and that’s why the changes to Orb are actually good. Giving you buffs and resources is not the job of a healer."

    Once again: that statement is my general opinion about healers in MMORPGs. It’s the way a healer in my eyes should function. It’s neither how I am playing in ESO nor how I want others to play in ESO.

    We shouldn’t target you and question you of how you play, but below are the pro healers opinion on the nerfs which indicates the issues, if you think there’s no issues which leads me to doubt your eso healing knowledge and opinions. If your theory and ways of healing can convince them of their opinion, please do so, same goes for the ZOS employees that came up with the nerfs, please convince the pro healers below to proof your point and heal those strong DoTs content with no viable hots. If bursts heals are hots it’s dumb healer play.

    game's finest healers here:
    Tabatta
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483893/scalebreaker-pts-patch-notes-5-1-0-an-end-game-healer-opinion-on-the-matter

    Stilema
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483659/you-can-only-have-1-orb-active-at-a-time-why-this-should-not-go-live/p1
    Edited by akl77 on July 7, 2019 11:12PM
    Pc na
  • TheInfernalRage
    TheInfernalRage
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    "Healers are healers and not supporters / buffers. That’s the biggest problem in this game, healers are degraded to buff bots. That should have never been the case and that’s why the changes to Orb are actually good. Giving you buffs and resources is not the job of a healer."

    Once again: that statement is my general opinion about healers in MMORPGs. It’s the way a healer in my eyes should function. It’s neither how I am playing in ESO nor how I want others to play in ESO.

    But still, because you sound authoritative about your stand, how exactly are you healing in ESO vet trials? I'm really curious.
  • Nefas
    Nefas
    Class Representative
    Seraphayel wrote: »

    Who is reducing the healer role to a pitiful state? ZOS or the players?

    On one point I agree: there should be a compensation for the loss of multiple layers of Greater Healing as this is a nerf to every class that lacks a spammable class healing skill.

    Healers, as we’ve read now several times, were reduced to be an Orb-provider. That’s it. So tell me again, ZOS is limiting healers? Or are players limiting healers by putting so much weight onto one single ability that basically makes or breaks a healer? Be honest about this.

    By the way, Fighter‘s Guild got a new healing ability. We don’t know yet what exactly it will be but it’s another AoE HoT. So there’s at least something to compensate the changes made to Greater Healing.

    ZOS. Also healers were not "reduced" to just be "orb providers". I have no idea what your experience is with healing in this game but I would highly recommend watching/reading what endgame healers have done. I would argue that healers are not "reduced" to providing buffs and debuffs. To many others including myself, providing high debuffs/buffs while still providing the basic heals as a healer in ESO means that healer is skilled, not reduced to a mere robot just there to help you sustain.
  • akl77
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    Nefas wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »

    Who is reducing the healer role to a pitiful state? ZOS or the players?

    On one point I agree: there should be a compensation for the loss of multiple layers of Greater Healing as this is a nerf to every class that lacks a spammable class healing skill.

    Healers, as we’ve read now several times, were reduced to be an Orb-provider. That’s it. So tell me again, ZOS is limiting healers? Or are players limiting healers by putting so much weight onto one single ability that basically makes or breaks a healer? Be honest about this.

    By the way, Fighter‘s Guild got a new healing ability. We don’t know yet what exactly it will be but it’s another AoE HoT. So there’s at least something to compensate the changes made to Greater Healing.

    ZOS. Also healers were not "reduced" to just be "orb providers". I have no idea what your experience is with healing in this game but I would highly recommend watching/reading what endgame healers have done. I would argue that healers are not "reduced" to providing buffs and debuffs. To many others including myself, providing high debuffs/buffs while still providing the basic heals as a healer in ESO means that healer is skilled, not reduced to a mere robot just there to help you sustain.

    Exactly, but I’m afraid the nerfs to hots gonna make healers constantly burst heal every sec to acts in place for the missing hots like combat prayer and mushrooms bursts heals in for example VSO the whole trial for poison dots. Which leaves no time or limited time for debuffs and buffs.

    Thanks for standing out and posted something on forum and utube for your insight knowledge of those nerfs to eso. What would proof your point more maybe take out orb and spring on your healer bar and heal VSO and posted your findings and solutions and publish it as strong argument evidence. As ZOS doesn’t seem to test anything or don’t have decent players to test properly. @Nefas
    Pc na
  • Nefas
    Nefas
    Class Representative
    @akl77 I will probably hit the PTS and test from there.
  • Nefas
    Nefas
    Class Representative
    xeNNNNN wrote: »
    I am so glad so many other healers are as pissed about orbs and springs as I am right now. Feel almost vindicated.

    I completely agree with the general assessment that whoever came up with the idea to reduce it to 1 orb per duration (which will effectively mean whenever you cast another orb and the other hasn't been taken it will cancel it out rendering the orb effectively dead as its usefulness has essentially been thrown into the grave.) has never healed properly in the game before. Let alone at end-game.

    I want to say that they know what they are doing but after this? Yeah no. This is just flat out a bad change. A horrible one. As if healers didn't already have a stress fest from other demanding roles due to resources and synergies.

    I am also wondering how they imagine how they imagine tanks will combat bleeds now without the support of healers apart from you know roll dodging certain things. The HoT from orbs is so helpful for tanks and players in general.

    Then there is the springs issue like.....keeping everyone in that individual springs is just going to be painful. Reduced healing is a bit too much but 1 active at 1 time is just ridiculous. I hope this gets trashed and canned and does not become a trend because this is one hell of a bad trend to follow for dealing with power creep.

    All in all, the change will hit the average players the hardest due to the required coordination most progression groups lack. So far you are not the only one who's questioning this glaring change: https://www.change.org/p/zenimax-pve-players-against-1-orb-orb-helmets-protests?recruited_by_id=98876ff0-a0ad-11e9-a374-516eb4085c0c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

    Over 1,600 other players agree.
  • xeNNNNN
    xeNNNNN
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    Nefas wrote: »
    xeNNNNN wrote: »
    I am so glad so many other healers are as pissed about orbs and springs as I am right now. Feel almost vindicated.

    I completely agree with the general assessment that whoever came up with the idea to reduce it to 1 orb per duration (which will effectively mean whenever you cast another orb and the other hasn't been taken it will cancel it out rendering the orb effectively dead as its usefulness has essentially been thrown into the grave.) has never healed properly in the game before. Let alone at end-game.

    I want to say that they know what they are doing but after this? Yeah no. This is just flat out a bad change. A horrible one. As if healers didn't already have a stress fest from other demanding roles due to resources and synergies.

    I am also wondering how they imagine how they imagine tanks will combat bleeds now without the support of healers apart from you know roll dodging certain things. The HoT from orbs is so helpful for tanks and players in general.

    Then there is the springs issue like.....keeping everyone in that individual springs is just going to be painful. Reduced healing is a bit too much but 1 active at 1 time is just ridiculous. I hope this gets trashed and canned and does not become a trend because this is one hell of a bad trend to follow for dealing with power creep.

    All in all, the change will hit the average players the hardest due to the required coordination most progression groups lack. So far you are not the only one who's questioning this glaring change: https://www.change.org/p/zenimax-pve-players-against-1-orb-orb-helmets-protests?recruited_by_id=98876ff0-a0ad-11e9-a374-516eb4085c0c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

    Over 1,600 other players agree.

    oh haha I already signed it. But when I did it was a lot less, I believe I signed up as it started making the rounds.

    Its a little more stressful for me with these changes as me and a couple others just formed a new raid group nothing too serious but it is a progression group, its going to make things a lot harder on the group I think in terms of the learning curve/adaptation - ultimately those who have been playing together longer will just have it better.

    Which honestly makes me worry for the entry level area of raid groups because its going to raise the skill floor group wise and as you pointed out it was harder previously to get players for raid groups in morrowind yet....even now its a bit of a struggle because of the isolationism of more experienced groups being unwilling to take on newer and less experienced players unless you're willing to pay (this is at least accurate on EU) not shaming those groups for that but it doesn't help. As you said it would effect average players yet I honestly think this will hit everyone who isn't in the top 5% pretty hard.
    Edited by xeNNNNN on July 8, 2019 4:24AM
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • usmcjdking
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    The only real issue with these changes is that a lot of content needs to be wildly scaled back to support these changes. It's a true balancing act - the more support you demand the groups to provide, the lower the overall damage output will be.

    Available healing isn't really much of a worry - there are a ton of classes that have tremendous cover healing capabilities to friendlies that doesn't require an outright healer build. The problem becomes that when you start stripping away damage to make room for support, eventually you'll hit a threshold where damage is just too low.
    0331
    0602
  • Nefas
    Nefas
    Class Representative
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    The only real issue with these changes is that a lot of content needs to be wildly scaled back to support these changes. It's a true balancing act - the more support you demand the groups to provide, the lower the overall damage output will be.

    Available healing isn't really much of a worry - there are a ton of classes that have tremendous cover healing capabilities to friendlies that doesn't require an outright healer build. The problem becomes that when you start stripping away damage to make room for support, eventually you'll hit a threshold where damage is just too low.

    Even more worrying is that many groups will probably not pass the heal checks required for certain fights. And if ZOS' intent is to encourage the DPS to slot defensive skills (which already occurs...like shield/vigor/Major Evasion) what's the point of the support roles, in particular the healers, if their ability to actually support is further diminished if DPS are asked to bring their own sustain/heals??
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    Nefas wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    The only real issue with these changes is that a lot of content needs to be wildly scaled back to support these changes. It's a true balancing act - the more support you demand the groups to provide, the lower the overall damage output will be.

    Available healing isn't really much of a worry - there are a ton of classes that have tremendous cover healing capabilities to friendlies that doesn't require an outright healer build. The problem becomes that when you start stripping away damage to make room for support, eventually you'll hit a threshold where damage is just too low.

    Even more worrying is that many groups will probably not pass the heal checks required for certain fights. And if ZOS' intent is to encourage the DPS to slot defensive skills (which already occurs...like shield/vigor/Major Evasion) what's the point of the support roles, in particular the healers, if their ability to actually support is further diminished if DPS are asked to bring their own sustain/heals??

    At some point it's just outright better to bring more group support than stack individual healing/sustain mechanics. That is what the vision appears to be on paper as I interpret it.

    For example - AOE Templar purify will tick for 4k every 2 seconds in PVE. That's no trivial amount of healing - stamplar is exceptional when it comes to the most out of the least; it has tons of available bar space. A Stamplar support wearing PA can run Purify, Vigor and Shards at a significantly beneficial opportunity cost to overall DPS provided. Magblade can easily run Refreshing + Funnel and still do reasonable damage whilst wearing the new Hemoglobin set.

    None of this is out of the question and probably one of the least invasive ways of dealing with the upcoming changes as a raid lead. The problem always will be "how much". If you, as an endgame raid lead, find yourself stacking 4 additional support and losing 30-40% of your overall group DPS output whilst not gaining some reasonable return in other areas, then content should be adjusted to match their vision on how they expect combat to flow.
    Edited by usmcjdking on July 8, 2019 4:37PM
    0331
    0602
  • Corpier
    Corpier
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    Nefas wrote: »

    Looks like nerfing the speed also reduces the distance covered. Good luck getting an orb from a kite healer I guess. It'll come via snail mail if it reaches at all.
    @Corpier | PC/NA CP1300+

    My Characters:
    AD
    A Príorí: Highelf - Magicka Sorcerer
    DC
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Nightblade
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Sorcerer
    EP
    A Fortiori: Darkelf - Magicka Nightblade
    A Posteriori: Darkelf - Magicka Dragonknight
    Bertha Ironsides: Imperial - Dragonknight Tank
    Corpier: Breton - Magicka Templar
    Corpíer: Orc - Stamina Templar
    CorpÌer: Orc - Stamina Warden
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Necromancer
    Logen'Bloody-Nine'Fingers: Orc - Stamina Dragonknight
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