The Necromancer class is NOT an Elder Scrolls Necromancer. (Discussion)

Noxavian · June 2019

LadySinflower wrote: »

While I agree with you that the necromancer class does not have the same abilities as the NPC necromancers, I am thoroughly enjoying my necromancer. Ok, she can't make zombies or desecrate flesh. That doesn't make it any less fun for me. I like the abilities and am enjoying learning how to use them effectively. Now, if they changed the class to make its abilities more in line with NPCs, that would be fun too. I don't understand why people have to nite-pick and find fault so much that it ruins their enjoyment of the game.

Oh it's totally understandable that you're enjoying necromancer! I actually really enjoyed playing it too! I'm just saying with this post that the class doesn't feel like a necromancer, you know?

Like I had fun playing the class, but honestly it feels like some other magic user with "dark themed" abilities, not a necromancers. Which in turn, ruins my enjoyment because I wanted to play as a necromancer, you know?

Noxavian · June 2019

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

(Please read the entire post before commenting: "Well I like the class and absolutely nothing about it could be improved to fit the theme more" Also I want to clarify that ALL SUMMONS I TALK ABOUT are temporary ones, since a lot of people on here like to pull the "no more permanent pets" argument.)

Anyone else feel like the necromancer class just isn't.....well, a necromancer? Taken straight from the Elder Scrolls wiki: "Necromancy particularly deals with enslavement and utilization of involuntary souls and their bodies." ".....animation or control of a deceased's flesh or spirit" Now I don't know about you all, but the present necromancer class doesn't feel anything like this.

NOW don't get me wrong, I actually REALLY like how Necromancer plays. However, the thing is, it doesn't /feel/ like a necromancer. It feels like a standard mage class with necromancer ability affects, honestly. The saddest part about the class is the only 4 abilities that scream necromancer are Ghostly Mender, Skeletal mage, grave grasp and Bitter Harvest. And even then the only 2 "summons" the class has aren't real entities and can't even be targeted/have HP. At least to me and what I expect from an Elder Scrolls necromancer, I find it ABSOLUTELY silly that a necromancer class, in the elder scrolls universe, doesn't have any actual "temporary" pets or a skill line about summoning/buffing said pets. Also perhaps the most important thing: They can't summon a SINGLE zombie. The most novice of necromancy and some how you expect me to believe our guy can turn into a big bone dude, yet cant raise a simple corpse and is supposed to be called a necromancer?

Firstly, I honestly feel like the corpse mechanic is cool, but they tried so hard to shove it into anything that doesnt involve summoning when one of the most unique aspects of necromancers in ES was basically standing there in front of them all along. The mechanic should of been about raising temporary undead minions FROM corpses, let's be honest with ourselves here. Obviously with these abilities they'd be able to affect 1 corpse at a time and maybe 2 if a morph allowed multiple summons of the undead creature. Best part is all of you people that complain about pets cluttering the bank or work stations wouldn't have to worry because they can only be summoned via corpses and don't last too long. Also they'd still be against the law ofc.

Though, skill-wise, my only issue is with the living death skill line and /aspects/ of both the gravelord and bone tyrant line. Basically, does anyone else feel like living death would be much better if it were overhauled into a summoning skill line? Remove the healing from necromancer. Honestly, having an entire skill line about healing in a class that is supposed to be about the undead is.....very weird and off-putting and just OBVIOUSLY feels like they were trying to stretch the theme to fit dps, tank, heal. IMO the necromancer should mainly be dps/tank and has the chance to be an "off support"/healer with restoration staff skills/ a few necro ones. Don't get me wrong, they should still have healing abilities. Just less. Give them like, 1 healing spirit and the ability to use that necrotic energy beam thing most npc necromancers have to heal their summons/allies. A morph could even apply a buff.

As for what I'd change about gravelord and bone tyrant? Make the Skeletal mage an ACTUAL temporary pet, requiring a corpse to be summoned. Extend the duration to 30 seconds and obviously remove the fact that it drops a corpse. Remove the tether skill and replace it with something else. (Perhaps a melee skeleton summon) Make Blast Bones an exploding zombie. And remove the grave stones from boneyard, make it more like they're desecrating the ground with dark magic. Also give the gravelord a SUMMONING ultimate of some kind. Perhaps summon a mini colossus to fight for you for a certain amount of time? Could even taunt.

Bone tyrant? Keep ultimate, they kinda have to since the cinematic has it being used. Completely rework the scythe attack, IMO one of the things I loved about ES necromancers is that they were unique and didn't use scythes at all. I have literally never heard of such a thing from any necromancer in any ES game. If they wanna keep it an AoE short range "swipe" attack, go ahead, but please make it not a scythe. I feel like the animation for bone armor is kinda wack, I dont mind this skill, but the way it's animated just makes me hate it. It should like, "stack" onto your body over a second or something instead of just instantly popping up. (Like a skeleton slowly forming together, hopefully you guys can get what I mean) Could be cool. Keep bitter harvest, it's a cool skill. Rework bone totem into an undead summon that basically does a similar thing as the present skill. It could even be turned into a tanky armored skeleton that taunts and provides the aoe buff around it/the fear on enemies. Could be a slow moving temporary mob. Grave grasp is fine, maybe add a morph that causes 2 VERY WEAK melee skeletons to crawl out of the ground after 5 seconds.

Lastly, for the living death, once again I think it should just be full blown replaced with a skill line about either summoning/supporting undead. Give it 2-3 support corpse summons and whatever skills don't summon something from a corpse make it a support skill without direct blatant healing. You'll have your spirits for that. (Unless it's that necromancer beam the npcs have.) The ultimate could be a mixture of both support/summoning or perhaps it could summon powerful support undead to assist you for a limited time.

Over all, this is my mini-idea/how they could make the class more like an ES necromancer and over all what I was expecting when I thought "Man I can't wait to play a necromancer in ESO". What do you guys think?

(I already know some of you are going to say that having this many temporary summon abilities would be "broken", but I feel like if done well, the fact that corpses are REQUIRED to summon anything could make things interesting and not too busted. And they'd be very killable. It would basically make necromancer a "summoner" class, like it should be. It can deal damage on it's own, but it's heavy hitting stuff comes from what it raises from the dead.)

TLDR, skim read, my conclusion, go play Skyrim, this is an MMO so will generally have re-flavour of the same skills all of the other classes have, i.e 1 heal, 1 Ground AOE, 1 spammable, an armour buff yada yada yada.
as for needing corpses to even start your rotation just for immersion... good luck completing any content or being invited to trials, we already had to endure the lamest attempt at a crime and punishment system for playing a Necromancer thanks to Lore nerds Immersion, now you are not happy because you need the whole class to be gutless just because it is more lore friendly as you sit in the salted wings tavern and RP

I'm not asking for the whole class to be gutted. I'm suggesting to make it feel more like a necromancer. Having a summoning mechanic that works off of corpses would be interesting. Also, I would imagine if someone were to go a "pet summoning" build, they'd have a few of the many skills that generate basically free corpses easily. So getting a corpse to start your rotation isn't exactly the hardest thing on the table.

You COULD still have 1 heal, 1 ground aoe, 1 spammable, an armor buff, etc. Along with an undead summoning skill line. I think that's the part you're not getting. (:

Noxavian · June 2019

Red_Feather wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

I wish there was a questline I could do to get a necromancer skill line for my other character. Unlock something like "Aspect of Necromancy" and it gets a skill line with 5 or 6 dev selected necromancy skills.

At this point, I would of totally been fine with a necromancy skill line. Because then there would of been QUESTS based around us getting it/joining a group of necromancers as well as it'd most likely be about summoning the undead instead of....whatever it is we have now.

Maybe the last DLC of this year could have a system like that.

Perhaps. Though honestly the rest of this year is looking very dry, the next dlc is a story one that doesn't add in anything new IIRC.

Best bet is to wait till next year for something big and new to be added, however I am doubtful it'll have anything to do with necromancy, unfortunately.

Perashim · June 2019

I like playing it, but I agree that it doesn't feel like an ES necromancer. I would absolutely love it if we could summon multipler undead (albeit temporary) utilizing corpses.

Make Boneyard actually FEEL like a boneyard, with a bigger area, no damage, but a slow effect, but it exploits nearby corpses to animate skeletons. Stamina Morph would be Ancient Zombies (from Oblivion) that deal Disease Damage and have a damage aura around them. Magicka Morph would animate skeletons and raise a couple of wraiths that inflict minor breach.

Or something like this, but it would make skills like Empowering Grasp FAR more appealing.

Noxavian · June 2019

Perashim wrote: »

I like playing it, but I agree that it doesn't feel like an ES necromancer. I would absolutely love it if we could summon multipler undead (albeit temporary) utilizing corpses.

Make Boneyard actually FEEL like a boneyard, with a bigger area, no damage, but a slow effect, but it exploits nearby corpses to animate skeletons. Stamina Morph would be Ancient Zombies (from Oblivion) that deal Disease Damage and have a damage aura around them. Magicka Morph would animate skeletons and raise a couple of wraiths that inflict minor breach.

Or something like this, but it would make skills like Empowering Grasp FAR more appealing.

Can agree!

This is basically my entire standpoint.

I like playing it, but it absolutely does NOT feel like an ES necromancer. I really like your suggestion too. If boneyard worked like that, I would have no issue.

Perashim · July 2019

Noxavian wrote: »

Perashim wrote: »

I like playing it, but I agree that it doesn't feel like an ES necromancer. I would absolutely love it if we could summon multipler undead (albeit temporary) utilizing corpses.

Make Boneyard actually FEEL like a boneyard, with a bigger area, no damage, but a slow effect, but it exploits nearby corpses to animate skeletons. Stamina Morph would be Ancient Zombies (from Oblivion) that deal Disease Damage and have a damage aura around them. Magicka Morph would animate skeletons and raise a couple of wraiths that inflict minor breach.

Or something like this, but it would make skills like Empowering Grasp FAR more appealing.

Can agree!

This is basically my entire standpoint.

I like playing it, but it absolutely does NOT feel like an ES necromancer. I really like your suggestion too. If boneyard worked like that, I would have no issue.

I have another one:

Change Shocking Siphon into Dark Animation. Basically a channel that animates the corpse into a more powerful undead pet ( still temporary) and we'll make it a flesh atronach. Stamina morph could make it deal physical damage, then heal its owner by inflicting a disease damage DoT that siphons off health. The magicka morph could make it so it deals Shock Damage around it when it animates, and then keep shocking enemies near it.

Pretty rough idea, just came up with it a few minutes ago, but I think something like this could work, even if it is changed to be more of a support beam that NPC necros use on their pets.

BahometZ · July 2019

I understand the chagrin, but the problem I guess is that the Necro playstyle has to be balanced in all gameplay, animations have to operate in all situations, whilst utilising style assets that already exist in many cases (you'll notice the same colour themes and animations in Worm Cultist NPCs across Tamriel), and provide a clear and distinct aesthetic on the playing fields of ESO, the game. Necro could quickly become OP if you follow classic necro ideas, like summoning zombie hordes, and literally raising the same corpses that have fallen would be an animation nightmare. Even now our summoned pets are distracting. Imagine not having the bright aqua colour palette.

I agree that from a flavour perspective, it might've made more sense for Necro to be a skill line, but bar space is already limited. There are dozens of skills that no one will ever run in end game. They're fine for everyone else, but this is a competitive game, and if they released a skill line with no application to top level PvE/PvP, that would be a failure.

Having said all the above, I've been going back and forth on my enjoyment of Necro. Pros are that it's got a variety of skills that suit not just dps but tanking and healing, nice animations, a distinct colour theme and appearance (important for distinguishing in PvP), an actually decent number of stam morphs, which provide competitive DPS. And ultimately the new necro class is fresh inspiration in the game and a good source of character role play; my necro has a carefully curated race, name, background, which enhances my playtime. It's fun to play something new.

Cons are that blastbones is glitchy as hell, magnecro is butt DPS, and I haven't tested it enough yet, but in PvP it seems like a group class only, leaning on a few skills. I wouldn't want to solo with it.

Morgha_Kul · July 2019

I wonder.... what if they had implemented necromancy as a CRAFTING skill? You would actually have to MAKE your undead minions, as consumables, and your spells would empower them in some way.

Noxavian · July 2019

BahometZ wrote: »

I understand the chagrin, but the problem I guess is that the Necro playstyle has to be balanced in all gameplay, animations have to operate in all situations, whilst utilising style assets that already exist in many cases (you'll notice the same colour themes and animations in Worm Cultist NPCs across Tamriel), and provide a clear and distinct aesthetic on the playing fields of ESO, the game. Necro could quickly become OP if you follow classic necro ideas, like summoning zombie hordes, and literally raising the same corpses that have fallen would be an animation nightmare. Even now our summoned pets are distracting. Imagine not having the bright aqua colour palette.

I agree that from a flavour perspective, it might've made more sense for Necro to be a skill line, but bar space is already limited. There are dozens of skills that no one will ever run in end game. They're fine for everyone else, but this is a competitive game, and if they released a skill line with no application to top level PvE/PvP, that would be a failure.

Having said all the above, I've been going back and forth on my enjoyment of Necro. Pros are that it's got a variety of skills that suit not just dps but tanking and healing, nice animations, a distinct colour theme and appearance (important for distinguishing in PvP), an actually decent number of stam morphs, which provide competitive DPS. And ultimately the new necro class is fresh inspiration in the game and a good source of character role play; my necro has a carefully curated race, name, background, which enhances my playtime. It's fun to play something new.

Cons are that blastbones is glitchy as hell, magnecro is butt DPS, and I haven't tested it enough yet, but in PvP it seems like a group class only, leaning on a few skills. I wouldn't want to solo with it.

I'm VERY confused as to how the skinny small cloak wearing skeletal mage and small hovering ghost are distracting. Other than that, I see what you're saying.

And I'm NOT saying to raise literally the corpses that have fallen, by the way, I tried to make that clear. The mechanic I mentioned would simply use the corpses as a way to raise the dead. Obviously the animation/summoned undead would literally be like the normal undead every necromancer can raise. Not the actual NPC itself. So, with that said, I don't see how it'd be an animation nightmare. I also don't see what makes the necro class have "new and fresh inspiration", the stuff it adds aren't that unique to necro. The most unique things about the class are 2 of it's ultimates. And I could say the same for the character roleplay thing, my necro also has a carefully chosen race, name, and background. But it doesn't make me want to play the game anymore than I presently do, because it's hard for me to suspend my disbelief that much. It's hard to call myself a necromancer if I cannot raise a normal zombie or skeleton.

Also, what you summon as a necromancer are not pets, they are dots/heal over time. They do not have health bars and they do not count as actual entities and cannot be hit by AoEs or cc. They are, quite literally, a visual flavor animation that adds nothing more to the class except the ILLUSION that you summon the dead.

regime211 · July 2019

Noxavian wrote: »

(Please read the entire post before commenting: "Well I like the class and absolutely nothing about it could be improved to fit the theme more" Also I want to clarify that ALL SUMMONS I TALK ABOUT are temporary ones, since a lot of people on here like to pull the "no more permanent pets" argument.)

Anyone else feel like the necromancer class just isn't.....well, a necromancer? Taken straight from the Elder Scrolls wiki: "Necromancy particularly deals with enslavement and utilization of involuntary souls and their bodies." ".....animation or control of a deceased's flesh or spirit" Now I don't know about you all, but the present necromancer class doesn't feel anything like this.

NOW don't get me wrong, I actually REALLY like how Necromancer plays. However, the thing is, it doesn't /feel/ like a necromancer. It feels like a standard mage class with necromancer ability affects, honestly. The saddest part about the class is the only 4 abilities that scream necromancer are Ghostly Mender, Skeletal mage, grave grasp and Bitter Harvest. And even then the only 2 "summons" the class has aren't real entities and can't even be targeted/have HP. At least to me and what I expect from an Elder Scrolls necromancer, I find it ABSOLUTELY silly that a necromancer class, in the elder scrolls universe, doesn't have any actual "temporary" pets or a skill line about summoning/buffing said pets. Also perhaps the most important thing: They can't summon a SINGLE zombie. The most novice of necromancy and some how you expect me to believe our guy can turn into a big bone dude, yet cant raise a simple corpse and is supposed to be called a necromancer?

Firstly, I honestly feel like the corpse mechanic is cool, but they tried so hard to shove it into anything that doesnt involve summoning when one of the most unique aspects of necromancers in ES was basically standing there in front of them all along. The mechanic should of been about raising temporary undead minions FROM corpses, let's be honest with ourselves here. Obviously with these abilities they'd be able to affect 1 corpse at a time and maybe 2 if a morph allowed multiple summons of the undead creature. Best part is all of you people that complain about pets cluttering the bank or work stations wouldn't have to worry because they can only be summoned via corpses and don't last too long. Also they'd still be against the law ofc.

Though, skill-wise, my only issue is with the living death skill line and /aspects/ of both the gravelord and bone tyrant line. Basically, does anyone else feel like living death would be much better if it were overhauled into a summoning skill line? Remove the healing from necromancer. Honestly, having an entire skill line about healing in a class that is supposed to be about the undead is.....very weird and off-putting and just OBVIOUSLY feels like they were trying to stretch the theme to fit dps, tank, heal. IMO the necromancer should mainly be dps/tank and has the chance to be an "off support"/healer with restoration staff skills/ a few necro ones. Don't get me wrong, they should still have healing abilities. Just less. Give them like, 1 healing spirit and the ability to use that necrotic energy beam thing most npc necromancers have to heal their summons/allies. A morph could even apply a buff.

As for what I'd change about gravelord and bone tyrant? Make the Skeletal mage an ACTUAL temporary pet, requiring a corpse to be summoned. Extend the duration to 30 seconds and obviously remove the fact that it drops a corpse. Remove the tether skill and replace it with something else. (Perhaps a melee skeleton summon) Make Blast Bones an exploding zombie. And remove the grave stones from boneyard, make it more like they're desecrating the ground with dark magic. Also give the gravelord a SUMMONING ultimate of some kind. Perhaps summon a mini colossus to fight for you for a certain amount of time? Could even taunt.

Bone tyrant? Keep ultimate, they kinda have to since the cinematic has it being used. Completely rework the scythe attack, IMO one of the things I loved about ES necromancers is that they were unique and didn't use scythes at all. I have literally never heard of such a thing from any necromancer in any ES game. If they wanna keep it an AoE short range "swipe" attack, go ahead, but please make it not a scythe. I feel like the animation for bone armor is kinda wack, I dont mind this skill, but the way it's animated just makes me hate it. It should like, "stack" onto your body over a second or something instead of just instantly popping up. (Like a skeleton slowly forming together, hopefully you guys can get what I mean) Could be cool. Keep bitter harvest, it's a cool skill. Rework bone totem into an undead summon that basically does a similar thing as the present skill. It could even be turned into a tanky armored skeleton that taunts and provides the aoe buff around it/the fear on enemies. Could be a slow moving temporary mob. Grave grasp is fine, maybe add a morph that causes 2 VERY WEAK melee skeletons to crawl out of the ground after 5 seconds.

Lastly, for the living death, once again I think it should just be full blown replaced with a skill line about either summoning/supporting undead. Give it 2-3 support corpse summons and whatever skills don't summon something from a corpse make it a support skill without direct blatant healing. You'll have your spirits for that. (Unless it's that necromancer beam the npcs have.) The ultimate could be a mixture of both support/summoning or perhaps it could summon powerful support undead to assist you for a limited time.

Over all, this is my mini-idea/how they could make the class more like an ES necromancer and over all what I was expecting when I thought "Man I can't wait to play a necromancer in ESO". What do you guys think?

(I already know some of you are going to say that having this many temporary summon abilities would be "broken", but I feel like if done well, the fact that corpses are REQUIRED to summon anything could make things interesting and not too busted. And they'd be very killable. It would basically make necromancer a "summoner" class, like it should be. It can deal damage on it's own, but it's heavy hitting stuff comes from what it raises from the dead.)

They wont fix nothing lol

Noxavian · July 2019

regime211 wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

(Please read the entire post before commenting: "Well I like the class and absolutely nothing about it could be improved to fit the theme more" Also I want to clarify that ALL SUMMONS I TALK ABOUT are temporary ones, since a lot of people on here like to pull the "no more permanent pets" argument.)

Anyone else feel like the necromancer class just isn't.....well, a necromancer? Taken straight from the Elder Scrolls wiki: "Necromancy particularly deals with enslavement and utilization of involuntary souls and their bodies." ".....animation or control of a deceased's flesh or spirit" Now I don't know about you all, but the present necromancer class doesn't feel anything like this.

NOW don't get me wrong, I actually REALLY like how Necromancer plays. However, the thing is, it doesn't /feel/ like a necromancer. It feels like a standard mage class with necromancer ability affects, honestly. The saddest part about the class is the only 4 abilities that scream necromancer are Ghostly Mender, Skeletal mage, grave grasp and Bitter Harvest. And even then the only 2 "summons" the class has aren't real entities and can't even be targeted/have HP. At least to me and what I expect from an Elder Scrolls necromancer, I find it ABSOLUTELY silly that a necromancer class, in the elder scrolls universe, doesn't have any actual "temporary" pets or a skill line about summoning/buffing said pets. Also perhaps the most important thing: They can't summon a SINGLE zombie. The most novice of necromancy and some how you expect me to believe our guy can turn into a big bone dude, yet cant raise a simple corpse and is supposed to be called a necromancer?

Firstly, I honestly feel like the corpse mechanic is cool, but they tried so hard to shove it into anything that doesnt involve summoning when one of the most unique aspects of necromancers in ES was basically standing there in front of them all along. The mechanic should of been about raising temporary undead minions FROM corpses, let's be honest with ourselves here. Obviously with these abilities they'd be able to affect 1 corpse at a time and maybe 2 if a morph allowed multiple summons of the undead creature. Best part is all of you people that complain about pets cluttering the bank or work stations wouldn't have to worry because they can only be summoned via corpses and don't last too long. Also they'd still be against the law ofc.

Though, skill-wise, my only issue is with the living death skill line and /aspects/ of both the gravelord and bone tyrant line. Basically, does anyone else feel like living death would be much better if it were overhauled into a summoning skill line? Remove the healing from necromancer. Honestly, having an entire skill line about healing in a class that is supposed to be about the undead is.....very weird and off-putting and just OBVIOUSLY feels like they were trying to stretch the theme to fit dps, tank, heal. IMO the necromancer should mainly be dps/tank and has the chance to be an "off support"/healer with restoration staff skills/ a few necro ones. Don't get me wrong, they should still have healing abilities. Just less. Give them like, 1 healing spirit and the ability to use that necrotic energy beam thing most npc necromancers have to heal their summons/allies. A morph could even apply a buff.

As for what I'd change about gravelord and bone tyrant? Make the Skeletal mage an ACTUAL temporary pet, requiring a corpse to be summoned. Extend the duration to 30 seconds and obviously remove the fact that it drops a corpse. Remove the tether skill and replace it with something else. (Perhaps a melee skeleton summon) Make Blast Bones an exploding zombie. And remove the grave stones from boneyard, make it more like they're desecrating the ground with dark magic. Also give the gravelord a SUMMONING ultimate of some kind. Perhaps summon a mini colossus to fight for you for a certain amount of time? Could even taunt.

Bone tyrant? Keep ultimate, they kinda have to since the cinematic has it being used. Completely rework the scythe attack, IMO one of the things I loved about ES necromancers is that they were unique and didn't use scythes at all. I have literally never heard of such a thing from any necromancer in any ES game. If they wanna keep it an AoE short range "swipe" attack, go ahead, but please make it not a scythe. I feel like the animation for bone armor is kinda wack, I dont mind this skill, but the way it's animated just makes me hate it. It should like, "stack" onto your body over a second or something instead of just instantly popping up. (Like a skeleton slowly forming together, hopefully you guys can get what I mean) Could be cool. Keep bitter harvest, it's a cool skill. Rework bone totem into an undead summon that basically does a similar thing as the present skill. It could even be turned into a tanky armored skeleton that taunts and provides the aoe buff around it/the fear on enemies. Could be a slow moving temporary mob. Grave grasp is fine, maybe add a morph that causes 2 VERY WEAK melee skeletons to crawl out of the ground after 5 seconds.

Lastly, for the living death, once again I think it should just be full blown replaced with a skill line about either summoning/supporting undead. Give it 2-3 support corpse summons and whatever skills don't summon something from a corpse make it a support skill without direct blatant healing. You'll have your spirits for that. (Unless it's that necromancer beam the npcs have.) The ultimate could be a mixture of both support/summoning or perhaps it could summon powerful support undead to assist you for a limited time.

Over all, this is my mini-idea/how they could make the class more like an ES necromancer and over all what I was expecting when I thought "Man I can't wait to play a necromancer in ESO". What do you guys think?

(I already know some of you are going to say that having this many temporary summon abilities would be "broken", but I feel like if done well, the fact that corpses are REQUIRED to summon anything could make things interesting and not too busted. And they'd be very killable. It would basically make necromancer a "summoner" class, like it should be. It can deal damage on it's own, but it's heavy hitting stuff comes from what it raises from the dead.)

They wont fix nothing lol

I stated this in the post. This is a discussion, I'm not expecting anything to change.

Uryel · July 2019

Well... It started really badly when they told us "Necromancy is illegal in Tamriel".

Necromancy is NOT illegal in Tamriel. It is illegal in Morrowind, but still practiced legimitately when the practices of summoning a spirit is intented as a way to commune with one's own ancestor. Anywhere else, it is legal, provided the bodes and souls have been legitimately purchased or made the subject of an angreement of some sort with their legitimate owner, prior to their death.

The only thing that is illegal with necromancy is the public display of reanimated undeads. So, in that respect, they got it right. But necromancy itself is not a crime. It will only be excluded from the Mages' Guild in 800 years or so from the events of ESO, during the Oblivion crisis, but it still won't be outlawed.

So, we had a pretty bad start here, since the lore was, once again, not respected. But hey, we have Altmers that regenerate stamina with SPELL recharge, Argonians not resistant to poison, Bosmers not stealthy at all... There really isn't much else to expect. This whole game is turning into a "this is not Elder Scrolls" situation.

As for the Necromancy itself, last time I played some was in Morrowind in 2002. I do remember summoning entire armies of ghosts and skeletons, for a limited time, but not from corpses. I don't remember a "reanimate dead body" spell from then. But I do agree on the point that it should have been in ESO nonetheless. If the description of the class is "focuses on reanuimating dead bodies" or some such, then that's what it should do. But then you'd have people telling you that this is not an Elder Scrolls necromancer, but a Guild Wars necromancer...

Uryel · July 2019

Red_Feather wrote: »

And to think it was said that Zenimax studios is planning on adding more classes. Why. Another new character needs to be made to use necromancy and of course more caltrops, volley and whirlwind. Whoop dee f'ing doo. This type of game design makes the game feel so stale.

So long as emphasis in game will be placed on "More Dakka", you'll have characters using the same skills, because they scrap that extra DPS drom it. SO long as ramping up damage like mad will be possible, you'll have people going crazy about their e-peen, and thus using the same f'ing copypasta skills.

The game needs a serious combat rework. I, for one, would get rid of stamina and magicka so everything uses and regenerates the same ressource. We're way pasty trying to pretend this is a game that respects previous games and lore in the series, obviously, with races being botched, Nighhtblades' top assassination skill being a tanking skill and whatnot, so might as well remove a historical limitation to gameplay. Let's Have HP, Energy and Power : Maximum HP and regen strength of it ; maximum energy which replaces both stamina and magicka, and regen strength of it ; strength improvement of skills, unrelated to maximum ressource, so one can chose to spam average skills or, if specialised in power, make each cast more meaningful. This would allow to chose between burst or continuous damage, and also mitigate the "more dakka" issue if done right. Ressources regenerate on LIGHT attacks, heavy attacks are for damage, which further mitigates the ramping up. And it would make sense, much more so anyway than "I'll put a lot of effort, strength and energy to move that heavy blade to hit harder, so obviously I feel refreshed after it".

That would also allow for way more variety in builds, since suddenly all class skills become viable, all weapons are possible for any play style.

Sybreed_Neurodrive · July 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Completely agree, ESO necromancer is Blizzard's necromancer, not a classic/high-fantasy necromancer.

Yes, it's....honestly painstakingly obvious how much the devs looked at blizzard's games instead of their own. Death Knights in WoW literally have the same exact scythe swipe ability ESO necros have. And we all know they conveniently got bone armor/ the siphon skills from diablo 3. There's literally a corpse explosion ability.

Well, also I think only sorcerer and nightblade are close to their TES colleagues, as well as weapon skill lines. But templar, DK, warden class abilities are completely made up from scratch. Tbh, I don't know why Bethesda simply didn't make Skyrim/Morrowind online... After playing DK for ~ 1000 hours, class abilities are like second skin too me, but when I only started ESO I disliked it all so much.

Why "Morrowind/Skyrim" only? did u forget about the better one "Oblivion"?

Nephthys · July 2019

I tend to agree OP. I am really enjoying playing the necromancer and I admit upfront that aesthetics is a big part of the game for me. The coolest thing is having the Skeletal Mage and the Ghostly Mender running beside me and it bugs me that I can't bring them into the tavern for a drink. I don't mind greatly that they are not permanent pets but I do wish they hung around a little longer and that we were not shunned for haning out.

Some of the other animations are kind of weird. Giant things thunping the ground and my gorgeous little self turning into some giant monstrosity. Yup and those headstones flying around in the air.

Just give me some more deaduns to hang out with and... well... they can't help it if they are a bit stinkey and ugly. Acceptance is all.

SixVoltCar · July 2019

I'm pretty sure R.L. Stine designed it.

Perashim · July 2019

To be honest, the "Necromancer" class feels more like a Dark Mage who dabbled somewhat in necromancy.

ZonasArch · July 2019

Perashim wrote: »

To be honest, the "Necromancer" class feels more like a Dark Mage who dabbled somewhat in necromancy.

Dabled somewhat, and came up with wraiths, sucking vitality out of corpses, giant skeleton big daddies, and a huge giant flesh Atronach...

"Dabbled somewhat".

I wonder what your imaginary necro would be doing. A single dude would be eable to take over an army. True Night King raising wraiths and white walkers. Way. To. Go. #logic

Uryel · July 2019

ZonasArch wrote: »

I wonder what your imaginary necro would be doing.

Raising the corpses of dead enemies. Like, I kill a guar, BAM, magic happens and I have a companion undead guar. Now Maybe I should kill a few trolls...

VaranisArano · July 2019

Uryel wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

I wonder what your imaginary necro would be doing.

Raising the corpses of dead enemies. Like, I kill a guar, BAM, magic happens and I have a companion undead guar. Now Maybe I should kill a few trolls...

So a Skyrim Necromancer. Since that's the first time that TES players had the ability to reaminate the dead.

Perashim · July 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

I wonder what your imaginary necro would be doing.

Raising the corpses of dead enemies. Like, I kill a guar, BAM, magic happens and I have a companion undead guar. Now Maybe I should kill a few trolls...

So a Skyrim Necromancer. Since that's the first time that TES players had the ability to reaminate the dead.

Actually that was in Oblivion. Skyrim is the first one of the series where "animating" a corpse isn't locked behind an item.

ZonasArch wrote: »

Perashim wrote: »

To be honest, the "Necromancer" class feels more like a Dark Mage who dabbled somewhat in necromancy.

Dabled somewhat, and came up with wraiths, sucking vitality out of corpses, giant skeleton big daddies, and a huge giant flesh Atronach...

"Dabbled somewhat".

I wonder what your imaginary necro would be doing. A single dude would be eable to take over an army. True Night King raising wraiths and white walkers. Way. To. Go. #logic

More like dabbled and learned how to summon a friendly healy spirit, some dusty old mage/archer, occasionally bring out a fleshy colossus to say hi before it goes back to its hole, turn into a bone goliath, and make bones go pop.

The same mage also picked up on farming and learned how to swipe with an "evil" scythe, summon sort of spoooooky evil totem, picked up on stone masonry to build tombstones, attempt to imitate Frankstein with somewhat explosive/shocking results, make some spooooooky mist, resurrect people (without turning them into zombies mind you, just full blown resurrection) through a "dark" spell, and then went to Evil Meds school to learn evil sounding spells of healing other people. Oh but a couple of these skills use corpses, therefore it MUST BE NECROMANCY!

Yes, very much a "necromancer."

You want my ideal version of a necromancer? Look here https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Necromancer . Feels like way more of a true necromancer than this dark mage who dabbled in necromancy.

xeNNNNN · July 2019

Should just point how that the "scythe" swipe that was in X game before Y game existed in reality long before video games were even in existence. Obviously its nothing close to how scythes were actually used however it is abit silly to complain about the animation like that.

Who in their right mind imagines a scythe instead being brought down on top of someones head like a maul or an axe? Nobody. Its also literally called "reaping the fields" for a reason. It reaps. Necromancers are associated with death and thus the reaper comes to mind and thus The reapers primary weapon of choice is a scythe.

Moan at them for a lack of creativity if you want but I honestly dont see anyone coming up with an alternative for it either. Guild Wars necro is great but heres the issue; they are two completely different MMOs. There are a multitude of different things in the game to consider that shouldn't be sacrificed just so necromancer can be more well. "necroy".

I also dont know if anyone here really knows what a high fantasy necromancer would be like without it being utterly broken (Power wise) in game. Do you want a necromancer that just is what it is that is also balanced mostly or do you want a high power necromancer so that you can go on a power trip with it and live that "power fantasy" that everyone drools over?

Perashim · July 2019

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Should just point how that the "scythe" swipe that was in X game before Y game existed in reality long before video games were even in existence. Obviously its nothing close to how scythes were actually used however it is abit silly to complain about the animation like that.

Who in their right mind imagines a scythe instead being brought down on top of someones head like a maul or an axe? Nobody. Its also literally called "reaping the fields" for a reason. It reaps. Necromancers are associated with death and thus the reaper comes to mind and thus The reapers primary weapon of choice is a scythe.

Moan at them for a lack of creativity if you want but I honestly dont see anyone coming up with an alternative for it either. Guild Wars necro is great but heres the issue; they are two completely different MMOs. There are a multitude of different things in the game to consider that shouldn't be sacrificed just so necromancer can be more well. "necroy".

I also dont know if anyone here really knows what a high fantasy necromancer would be like without it being utterly broken (Power wise) in game. Do you want a necromancer that just is what it is that is also balanced mostly or do you want a high power necromancer so that you can go on a power trip with it and live that "power fantasy" that everyone drools over?

Okay, I'll agree with you about the scythee, but there is a way that the more "high fantasy" necro can be achieved without too much imbalance, and every necromancer class in every MMO I've played has done it in a pretty balanced way (imo), at least when it comes to an "army of the undead" part of it.

Guild Wars: So long as there are corpses, you can keep animating undead minions (up to your DM cap limit). BUT, they are slow, unarmored, stupid, and take health damage until they die, and you can only have one Flesh Golem at any given time. Sure, you could spec into supporting your minions and making them last longer, but you gimp yourself on DPS.

Guild Wars 2: All of your minions can be out at once and they all have their own skills and health out of combat. However, most of them don't hit very hard, die quickly to AoE, can only attack one target, have a decent CD between skill uses, and will take up your entire skill bar.

Rift: Pretty similar to the Rift's Elementalist, except that on top of your main pet, you have a chance to summon a temporary version of another, and have two skills which summon more. One summons a little bug to temporarily attack your target, the other summons five zombies to temporarily attack your target. The pets here though, aren't meant to be your main source of damage all the time, they just stuck a debuff that either makes your own spells do more damage, or allows you to cast more powerful spells.

ESO has something like this, with Reanimate's "Animate Blastbones" morph, but those are temporary pets like those above, and die extremely quickly (and I'm not sure how many people choose that morph over the one that gives more resources after revival). Not to mention it feels like it's in the wrong tree.... They could fix this by swapping Animate BlastBones with a different morph in the Grave Lord tree, or even make it a proper skill! Then they could change it to where it animates zombies or skeletons temporarily based on how many corpses there are, ones that can be targeted and do more than just go pop.

Alternatively, they could change Boneyard to have a bigger radius, deal little to no damage, slow down enemies somewhat, and exploit corpses in that area to animate undead pets that temporarily attack nearby enemies.

This would probably reduce a good chunk of the complaints about the class, on top of making the mage last longer, be targetable, and make the spirit BE AN ACTUAL WRAITH and attack things while siphoning off their targets health to you or a nearby ally.

SirMewser · July 2019

This is a topic that I've brought up any times, and time and time again it comes down to this...

Only players who have played an Elder Scroll game would understand this.

ESO's market is not much of that audience.

We have players from other games here who would rather feel nostalgic having a copy/paste of Blizzard/Diablo.

For myself personally, am disappointed in the beta testers (class representatives) who gave this class a pass.
I will not take their words so seriously for coming content for now on.
I will vote with my wallet better, the past is on me.

robertbmilesb14_ESO · July 2019

Noxavian wrote: »

Also, what you summon as a necromancer are not pets, they are dots/heal over time. They do not have health bars and they do not count as actual entities and cannot be hit by AoEs or cc. They are, quite literally, a visual flavor animation that adds nothing more to the class except the ILLUSION that you summon the dead.

All pets are these though.

They are not pets by your narrow definition but they are in many other games.

Morgha_Kul · July 2019

robertbmilesb14_ESO wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Also, what you summon as a necromancer are not pets, they are dots/heal over time. They do not have health bars and they do not count as actual entities and cannot be hit by AoEs or cc. They are, quite literally, a visual flavor animation that adds nothing more to the class except the ILLUSION that you summon the dead.

All pets are these though.

They are not pets by your narrow definition but they are in many other games.

No, these aren't pets, they're animations. If you're going to consider them pets, then things like fireballs would have to be considered pets too. They're not, they're just animations. Sure, they have a necromantic theme, but that's not what a necromancer is traditionally about. Pets are creatures that act independently (under orders), either persistent or temporarily. Most of the spells necromancers here have are not of this variety.

robertbmilesb14_ESO · July 2019

SirMewser wrote: »

This is a topic that I've brought up any times, and time and time again it comes down to this...

Only players who have played an Elder Scroll game would understand this.

ESO's market is not much of that audience.

We have players from other games here who would rather feel nostalgic having a copy/paste of Blizzard/Diablo.

For myself personally, am disappointed in the beta testers (class representatives) who gave this class a pass.
I will not take their words so seriously for coming content for now on.
I will vote with my wallet better, the past is on me.

I honestly feel like this was the template for the Warden

.

But I do think they have kept in the theme of twisting souls and summoning/re-animating corpses so it's a Necromancer to me. I'd prefer if the graveyard was more of a magical glyph personally. It lines up pretty well to the Reachman necromancers, and the ones in The Rift.

It has become my main because I enjoy the play-style and I like the colour though. (Magcro btw)

With how much ult I gen, I have used the "blast bones" morph. If it hits right, that's 10k each BB for me no crit *shrugs*. It moves the corpses for me to use other abilities. But I do see it'd be a nicer morph if maybe 3 skeletons were raised that did combat temporarily.

zaria · July 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Completely agree, ESO necromancer is Blizzard's necromancer, not a classic/high-fantasy necromancer.

Yes, it's....honestly painstakingly obvious how much the devs looked at blizzard's games instead of their own. Death Knights in WoW literally have the same exact scythe swipe ability ESO necros have. And we all know they conveniently got bone armor/ the siphon skills from diablo 3. There's literally a corpse explosion ability.

Well, also I think only sorcerer and nightblade are close to their TES colleagues, as well as weapon skill lines. But templar, DK, warden class abilities are completely made up from scratch. Tbh, I don't know why Bethesda simply didn't make Skyrim/Morrowind online... After playing DK for ~ 1000 hours, class abilities are like second skin too me, but when I only started ESO I disliked it all so much.

Making an MMO out of the previous TES games would not work as they was very unbalanced in a lot of different ways.
Crafting in Skyrim, Spellcrafting in Oblivion, Spellcrafting, enchanting and alchemy in Morrowind.
So you had to strip most of that away and would be left with an boring and very clunky system.

Skyrim had best necromancy of all the TES games even if magic was horrible in other ways there, Oblivion and earlier it was just temporary summoning using undead rather than daedra still under the summoning skill.

Yes, they could easy used permanent pets like Sorcerer. To much use of dead bodies would make it very dependent on the fight, some bosses don't have adds for one.

LennoxPoodle · July 2019

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

(Please read the entire post before commenting: "Well I like the class and absolutely nothing about it could be improved to fit the theme more" Also I want to clarify that ALL SUMMONS I TALK ABOUT are temporary ones, since a lot of people on here like to pull the "no more permanent pets" argument.)

Anyone else feel like the necromancer class just isn't.....well, a necromancer? Taken straight from the Elder Scrolls wiki: "Necromancy particularly deals with enslavement and utilization of involuntary souls and their bodies." ".....animation or control of a deceased's flesh or spirit" Now I don't know about you all, but the present necromancer class doesn't feel anything like this.

NOW don't get me wrong, I actually REALLY like how Necromancer plays. However, the thing is, it doesn't /feel/ like a necromancer. It feels like a standard mage class with necromancer ability affects, honestly. The saddest part about the class is the only 4 abilities that scream necromancer are Ghostly Mender, Skeletal mage, grave grasp and Bitter Harvest. And even then the only 2 "summons" the class has aren't real entities and can't even be targeted/have HP. At least to me and what I expect from an Elder Scrolls necromancer, I find it ABSOLUTELY silly that a necromancer class, in the elder scrolls universe, doesn't have any actual "temporary" pets or a skill line about summoning/buffing said pets. Also perhaps the most important thing: They can't summon a SINGLE zombie. The most novice of necromancy and some how you expect me to believe our guy can turn into a big bone dude, yet cant raise a simple corpse and is supposed to be called a necromancer?

Firstly, I honestly feel like the corpse mechanic is cool, but they tried so hard to shove it into anything that doesnt involve summoning when one of the most unique aspects of necromancers in ES was basically standing there in front of them all along. The mechanic should of been about raising temporary undead minions FROM corpses, let's be honest with ourselves here. Obviously with these abilities they'd be able to affect 1 corpse at a time and maybe 2 if a morph allowed multiple summons of the undead creature. Best part is all of you people that complain about pets cluttering the bank or work stations wouldn't have to worry because they can only be summoned via corpses and don't last too long. Also they'd still be against the law ofc.

Though, skill-wise, my only issue is with the living death skill line and /aspects/ of both the gravelord and bone tyrant line. Basically, does anyone else feel like living death would be much better if it were overhauled into a summoning skill line? Remove the healing from necromancer. Honestly, having an entire skill line about healing in a class that is supposed to be about the undead is.....very weird and off-putting and just OBVIOUSLY feels like they were trying to stretch the theme to fit dps, tank, heal. IMO the necromancer should mainly be dps/tank and has the chance to be an "off support"/healer with restoration staff skills/ a few necro ones. Don't get me wrong, they should still have healing abilities. Just less. Give them like, 1 healing spirit and the ability to use that necrotic energy beam thing most npc necromancers have to heal their summons/allies. A morph could even apply a buff.

As for what I'd change about gravelord and bone tyrant? Make the Skeletal mage an ACTUAL temporary pet, requiring a corpse to be summoned. Extend the duration to 30 seconds and obviously remove the fact that it drops a corpse. Remove the tether skill and replace it with something else. (Perhaps a melee skeleton summon) Make Blast Bones an exploding zombie. And remove the grave stones from boneyard, make it more like they're desecrating the ground with dark magic. Also give the gravelord a SUMMONING ultimate of some kind. Perhaps summon a mini colossus to fight for you for a certain amount of time? Could even taunt.

Bone tyrant? Keep ultimate, they kinda have to since the cinematic has it being used. Completely rework the scythe attack, IMO one of the things I loved about ES necromancers is that they were unique and didn't use scythes at all. I have literally never heard of such a thing from any necromancer in any ES game. If they wanna keep it an AoE short range "swipe" attack, go ahead, but please make it not a scythe. I feel like the animation for bone armor is kinda wack, I dont mind this skill, but the way it's animated just makes me hate it. It should like, "stack" onto your body over a second or something instead of just instantly popping up. (Like a skeleton slowly forming together, hopefully you guys can get what I mean) Could be cool. Keep bitter harvest, it's a cool skill. Rework bone totem into an undead summon that basically does a similar thing as the present skill. It could even be turned into a tanky armored skeleton that taunts and provides the aoe buff around it/the fear on enemies. Could be a slow moving temporary mob. Grave grasp is fine, maybe add a morph that causes 2 VERY WEAK melee skeletons to crawl out of the ground after 5 seconds.

Lastly, for the living death, once again I think it should just be full blown replaced with a skill line about either summoning/supporting undead. Give it 2-3 support corpse summons and whatever skills don't summon something from a corpse make it a support skill without direct blatant healing. You'll have your spirits for that. (Unless it's that necromancer beam the npcs have.) The ultimate could be a mixture of both support/summoning or perhaps it could summon powerful support undead to assist you for a limited time.

Over all, this is my mini-idea/how they could make the class more like an ES necromancer and over all what I was expecting when I thought "Man I can't wait to play a necromancer in ESO". What do you guys think?

(I already know some of you are going to say that having this many temporary summon abilities would be "broken", but I feel like if done well, the fact that corpses are REQUIRED to summon anything could make things interesting and not too busted. And they'd be very killable. It would basically make necromancer a "summoner" class, like it should be. It can deal damage on it's own, but it's heavy hitting stuff comes from what it raises from the dead.)

TLDR, skim read, my conclusion, go play Skyrim, this is an MMO so will generally have re-flavour of the same skills all of the other classes have, i.e 1 heal, 1 Ground AOE, 1 spammable, an armour buff yada yada yada.
as for needing corpses to even start your rotation just for immersion...

Oh yeah, that would be bad, disrupting the established concept of fixed rotations. It would require higher level decision making during combat and split second adjustments according to context.
Yep, the game would really suffer from a class that would require mental skills during gameplay instead of having everything planned out as part of the build. ;-)

Sarcasm aside, I really think it might even be healthy for pve, which is a bit static as it is.

Slimebrow · July 2019

Lich Transformation would have been way better and it fits the lore. Why skeletons "pets"? I can understand if there was a morph that changed them from skeletons to zombies would have added more variation IMO.