So I tried PvP for the first time...

Rickey · April 2014

A similar topic was posted by someone on the forums. Im aware.

Earlier today I reached veteran rank 1 and defeated Molag Bal

5 days /played lol. I really enjoyed that part of the Elder Scrolls story and reccommend it to anyone that hasn't done it yet. Don't get me wrong, the grind that goes with leveling up your toon can be distasteful, but hang in there it's worth it. V10, im coming for ya.
Now, onto matters that refer to the title. I might offend some people here, sorry but learn to open up a bit more and take other's ideas and thoughts into consideration...

I just happen to be one of the many PvP > PvE MMORPG players out there. PvP is exciting to me and the never the same experience aspect of it is what I really enjoy as well as the skill-cap involved to do it well. I did not play GW2 WvW or DAOC so I was not so sure how things would play out. I'm coming from WoW, sorry, so what I, and many others have experienced will reflect our interest. I enjoy competition and it had the biggest PvP crowd and community when I started years ago.

So yeah, I went into Cyrodil today, had fun for about an hour or so and then sat back and realized exactly what I was doing. Maybe you have to be on audio with a group of people to really enjoy it? Idk. I felt like just another number, I was reading the chat, joining groups that were attacking keeps and what-not, arriving to the battle, casting a spell or hitting someone with my axe and watching them drop in less than a second. It was fun, cool, and exciting, for about an hour...

In that hour, I realized how bland PvP atm is. There has to be more added (Battlegrounds, Team Arenas, maybe even some gladiator type 1v1 arenas). Yes, im used to that stuff so obviously im going to prefer it.
I'll continue to go to Cyrodil though, I know that there's dungeons, and skyshards and other areas I need to explore.

Now look, I already know what responses im going to get. But think before you respond? Maybe? Please? I beg of you.

"Go back to WoW" - No.
"This isn't WoW" - I logged onto to ESO and had no idea that it wasn't WoW, thanks for the info.
"ESO is trying to be different, sorry kid." - If I host a contest to see, who could get from USA to Australia the fastest and the winner gets a million dollars, how many of you are going to swim instead of take a plane? Weird analogy but what im saying is, usually you want to do what works first, and then innovate. Im 21.
"If you don't like the game, go player another" - I like the game.
"No, this is ESO PvP, if you don't like it, too bad." - This is probably the answer from your typical "I don't PvP in MMOs" type person, I dislike these people, they're stubborn and selfish.

To further address those people...
Why do you not want more PvP content added? I personally and honestly do not usually care for PvE content. I spam clicked through the quest dialogue, and read guides online when i needed help with a quest (Sorry lore developers, im sure the story was great! lol). Want more mounts? New raid bosses and dungeon content? Collectible vanity pets? Yeah! Sure! Add it! It really does not spark my interest (the bosses do a little), but OTHERS WILL certainly enjoy it. More PvP will bring in new players, give players options. People love proving that they're better than the next guy, and enjoy watching people do it (Twitch).

I hope that ESO will further develop PvP content, other than big zerg battles (I don't even see what else you could do). With all that being said, you have not lost a subscriber...
Now I know im probably talking to a certain crowd but im curious... Post away.

DFDelta · April 2014

In this type of mass-PvP you don't stand out as a player, you stand out as a guild/group. That is one thing that is really hurt by ESOs lack of a "show/represent guild" function.

That might be why you (and other players comming from similar small scale PvP games) "feel like a number". In a way you actually are.
You alone don't have an impact on the battle as a whole, your guild does.
This is also why players with... more "limited" understanding call it skill/mindless zerg-PvP.

In a way that is true. In another it is not.
It requires just as much skill as more individual PvP, the skillset needed is just a different one.

And yes, as you said that is a thing you can mostly only enjoy if you're on VOIP-chat with others.

Hang in there, get a good PvP guild you might just start really enjoying it.

On the topic of more PvP option:
Yes, I'd like them too.
Especially arena style 1v1 or 3v3 battles.
With all the blocking, movement and other things that make ESO combat what it is those would have a really good chance to become something very interesting to play.

Rickey · April 2014

DFDelta wrote: »

In this type of mass-PvP you don't stand out as a player, you stand out as a guild/group. That is one thing that is really hurt by ESOs lack of a "show/represent guild" function.

That might be why you (and other players comming from similar small scale PvP games) "feel like a number". In a way you actually are.
You alone don't have an impact on the battle as a whole, your guild does.
This is also why players with... more "limited" understanding call it skill/mindless zerg-PvP.

In a way that is true. In another it is not.
It requires just as much skill as more individual PvP, the skillset needed is just a different one.

And yes, as you said that is a thing you can mostly only enjoy if you're on VOIP-chat with others.

Hang in there, get a good PvP guild you might just start really enjoying it.

On the topic of more PvP option:
Yes, I'd like them too.
Especially arena style 1v1 or 3v3 battles.
With all the blocking, movement and other things that make ESO combat what it is those would have a really good chance to become something very interesting to play.

Oh yeah, man don't get me wrong, I totally respect the skill of large scale PvP. It's present all throughout history. It's the fact that a very small percentage of people probably are in ORGANIZED groups. I switched many groups in that hour or so with many of them complaining about noone taking charge and actually leading. Just go here, get cleared, fight back, respawn at 1 of our keeps, and leave group.

Xionar · April 2014

I would definitely suggest finding a guild that is dedicated to a high level of pvp. As that is how you will get the most enjoyment out of it. As the above poster said, it is very difficult to stand out in pvp alone, though it is possible.

Now, I'm not sure if this is still possible after recent patches, but I've seen people take entire resources by themselves. If you can find some small scale situations inside of Cyrodiil, you can still make yourself stand out from the crowd. While finding small scale fights is somewhat difficult, they're still out there.

If you want to stand out in a large group and become more than a number, you have to use more than skill, you have to have dedication, knowledge, and leadership abilities. As the person that does stand up and lead, is always the most recognizable, for better or worse.

Personally I typically prefer smaller type of battles..usually around 10-15vs10-15...or 10 of mine vs 30-40, whatever works. In these situations, in an organized group...you will have a great deal of fun. Especially if the entire group knows what they're doing :P

When I'm playing with my guild in cyrodiil, I feel like I could practically live there, I've spent all day without even noticing the time while pvping. It's different, but if you can get yourself in a decent situation, I think you'll really enjoy the PvP.

The reason I don't want other small scale pvp is because it would further dilute the population participating in Cyrodiil, which is by far the top pvp feature in the game, and always will be. It does need some improvements though and additional features....which I'm sure it will receive given time. Highly doubt Cyrodiil will stagnate for too long.

p.hurst1b16_ESO · April 2014

Some 10 v 10 and 20 v 20 warfront / battleground type PvP would be welcome.

Arena ? No. Keep it for the last gen of MMO and leave it there forever, it has wider effects on the game than pvp fans realise. Could write an essay on it but will spare you that.

Make (Instanced) Arena area(s) where people can make a group (of any size up to limit) and FFA. No leaderboards, no rewards. The players that want it can manage it themselves.

Magischzwei · April 2014

There definately needs to be more to pvp then this blind zerg fest.
Also, get the NPCs out of PvP. Its PvP not some glorified dungeon with other players sometimes intervening.

Xionar · April 2014

I love the npc's, they make for very good defensive position, and allow you to hold onto things longer than your normally would without them. I also love zergs...because they allow me to play defense, and get tons of AP.

zaria · April 2014

Xionar wrote: »

I love the npc's, they make for very good defensive position, and allow you to hold onto things longer than your normally would without them. I also love zergs...because they allow me to play defense, and get tons of AP.

Yes the NPC is designed to stop an small group doing night raids from rolling up keeps.
Add a few players with them and you need an larger party to take it.
Against 100 enemies they are toast.

My only complain so far is that the campains seems very loop sided, in my primary AD owns everything except a few keeps, in guest we only hold a few keeps.

Not that this is an huge problem in it self unless player unbalance get into he 1/1/10 faction

DanteYoda · April 2014

I played GW2 WvW and hated it, but then i hate all pvp equally, you can re-badge PvP with many names, its still PvP..

I have not tried Cyrodil yet but i'm not looking forward to it in any way.

I am not competitive in any way and my ego is fine, so pvp just comes across as an epeen fest with who has better numbers..

Xionar · April 2014

DanteYoda wrote: »

I played GW2 WvW and hated it, but then i hate all pvp equally, you can re-badge PvP with many names, its still PvP..

I have not tried Cyrodil yet but i'm not looking forward to it in any way.

I am not competitive in any way and my ego is fine, so pvp just comes across as an epeen fest with who has better numbers..

There really aren't numbers in ESO's pvp, you just play, infact the only number really to acquire is alliance points...which is mostly accrued by being in decent parties + time spent. Not really very ego boosting. At least from an individual standpoint. There might be some guild epeen though

Xionar · April 2014

zaria wrote: »

Yes the NPC is designed to stop an small group doing night raids from rolling up keeps.
Add a few players with them and you need an larger party to take it.
Against 100 enemies they are toast.

My only complain so far is that the campains seems very loop sided, in my primary AD owns everything except a few keeps, in guest we only hold a few keeps.

Not that this is an huge problem in it self unless player unbalance get into he 1/1/10 faction

I've defended a keep by myself against a 50+ player zerg that was dumb enough to try to take the front door...burning oil + large mob of people = death for them. They did eventually overrun, but it took at least 20 minutes to do, and gave me boatloads of AP in the process.

My suggestion would be to find a campaign where AD does decently but not dominate, that way it remains competitive. That is where you'll get the most enjoyment out of Cyrodiil...honestly I think there should be a few less campaigns as things currently stand :P

Zorak · April 2014

+1

Jambo · April 2014

I would highly recommend you to join a PVP guild that communicates via teamspeak or something similar.

DanteYoda · April 2014

Xionar wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I played GW2 WvW and hated it, but then i hate all pvp equally, you can re-badge PvP with many names, its still PvP..

I have not tried Cyrodil yet but i'm not looking forward to it in any way.

I am not competitive in any way and my ego is fine, so pvp just comes across as an epeen fest with who has better numbers..

There really aren't numbers in ESO's pvp, you just play, infact the only number really to acquire is alliance points...which is mostly accrued by being in decent parties + time spent. Not really very ego boosting. At least from an individual standpoint. There might be some guild epeen though

That could be true as i said i have not attempted ESO pvp yet, but from a GW2 point of view i remember World vs world was more of a PvD experience or ZvZ...

For the uninitiated that's Player vs Door and Zerg vs Zerg

Rickey · April 2014

I guess that's the next step then, trying to find a guild/team that communicates.

Thesiren · April 2014

Rickey wrote: »

I guess that's the next step then, trying to find a guild/team that communicates.

It really sounds as though you are approaching open PvP with the same mindset you do instanced PvP, and they're worlds apart. You really need to find a purpose, a role, and work with others who in their roles, to progress. I could go on and on, but you really just need experience in open PvP. Either you'll get it, or it won't be for you and you'll go back to WoW, but either way, we don't need instances here. Learn to deal with a new way of thinking (for you anyway) and you'll be fine.

Caduryn · April 2014

Since DAoC im waiting for great RvR, ESO gave it to me.

stylernaku · April 2014

Well personally, I loved the the PVP what I played of it. It's come from the mindset of games like bf4, in contrast to cod. now I don't want to upset anybody, i'm not a first person shooter nut, i'm just saying that you enter PVP as a massive battle ground and you start a campaign as a team. This battle is not about the one, but glory can indeed be yours. Now in ESO the open game play available to you here is immense, it's what you make of it. Did you know for example there are dungeons hidden in the pvp area? Rare chests, and even random events? No probably not because you were probably swept along with the tide. When I have played PVP I have been part of a small 5 man team (randomly made) who tried to stealth there way behind enemy lines and start attacking from the back, it was tense atmospheric and amazing. Seeing us all crouch descend on a small band of players talking from behind a hill in darkness, to have one of our guys suddenly turn into a were wolf and cause real panic, was one of those tales to tell from gaming moments. They have give you tools to let you re live battles from films like 300 or troy, not to mention the obvious battle scenes of Lord of the Rings or a series like game of thrones. The pvp area is nicely sized, huge in fact, and has enough to do, and find. It's more than any mmorpg offers in my opinion and what's more it's a natural part of the lore and game, not some half arsed tag on like SWTOR had at launch. rejoice with what you have. They will of course add to it. I for one, with what I have experienced, think this is a real good start. Yes some pvp sessions it's just random carnage, but if you look for it and join the right group on the battlefield, you see some incredible memorable game play. You define your experience in this pvp with who you group with and how you go about it.

You need to play this PVP with those around you more like :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2tFW-Oiyf0

Or :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhusCY_vq0Q

And less like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ZDt1cJAZ8

jimdove · April 2014

once they have guild colours and perhaps even nameplates with guild tags so we can see the armys various rvr guilds make everything will come together. Its still very early on in the game. Once you are in an organised RVR group using vent or TS it makes a huge difference to your enjoyment. Tactical attacks on various resources and keeps. ATM most guilds are just enjoying the PVE and learning their skills and levelling. Give it a few months and we will start to see very organised guild warbands with decent leadership and tactics, the pug zergs will get steamrollered making for a much more organised RVR lake. Think Warhammer in the glory days of 2009/10. With all its flaws I had the most fun Ive ever had in an MMO in the back then in alliance warbands with Nightfall. Very organised structure to the warbands and some epic encounters.

The_Drexill · April 2014

Games young... Give it time.

In WoW you had 10v10 capture the flag, whatever, I guess that's fun... But in this you'll have big named guilds that run strict 8-man, and roam... and those 8 will fight zergs by themselves, or other 8-man groups competitively. Roaming with a group is what it's all about... the zerg vs. zerg is for the casuals.

Once the pvp opens up, there's going to be alot more to do.

Tremayne · April 2014

Once upon a time there was an MMO that had instanced battlegrounds as well as open RvR areas.

It was called Warhammer Online. I'd suggest you go try it to see what happens when players can go and farm battlegrounds instead of fighting for their faction, but I'm afraid you can't - the servers have all been shut down.

politesir · April 2014

Thesiren wrote: »

It really sounds as though you are approaching open PvP with the same mindset you do instanced PvP, and they're worlds apart. You really need to find a purpose, a role, and work with others who in their roles, to progress. I could go on and on, but you really just need experience in open PvP. Either you'll get it, or it won't be for you and you'll go back to WoW, but either way, we don't need instances here. Learn to deal with a new way of thinking (for you anyway) and you'll be fine.

Another brainless go back to WoW post.

And by the way, cyrodill is hardly a "new way of thinking". It's a lazy excuse and a cop out for actual skill based PvP. It caters to simple minded individuals like you who actually think finding a "role" in this cluster**** of a zone will change the outcome of a swarm of preteens running in all directions. There are many people that enjoy intense small scale PvP. Some people get enjoyment out of predicting enemy moves, countering them, skillfully managing mana, stamina, etc. I could go on and on. I don't see this happening in cyrodill any time soon.

People like this tend to get ticked off when simple minded people like you say things like "bro just like explore cyrodil broo you'll like totally find 1v1 battles".. really? There was a guy in a different thread that was dumb enough to suggest that we actually have to organize our own small scale PvP in a remote location of cyrodill. Like, actually get in touch with folks from an opposing faction to set it up. LOL.

We need experience in open PvP to appreciate cyrodill? Do you even need experience to set up a few sieges and watch it break a door while 500 of you gank anyone that exits a fort? Seriously, stop comparing any PvP suggestion to WoW, and don't think cyrodill is never going to get old. Because it is. It is definitely not engaging to people with a different mind set.

Magischzwei · April 2014

Cryodil is not and will never be anything innovative. As it is, its a larger, more cluttered ripoff of thousand winter from wow. And that BG was hated by its community since its inception. If they go on to copy from other MMOs (which they do alot, and there is nothing wrong with that), they should have taken the better parts of PvP and not the trashcan that everyone hated.

Siege combat and npc focused *** is no pvp, and it doesn't belong in an MMO, period.

mips_winnt · April 2014

Rickey wrote: »

A similar topic was posted by someone on the forums. Im aware.

So yeah, I went into Cyrodil today, had fun for about an hour or so and then sat back and realized exactly what I was doing. Maybe you have to be on audio with a group of people to really enjoy it? Idk. I felt like just another number, I was reading the chat, joining groups that were attacking keeps and what-not, arriving to the battle, casting a spell or hitting someone with my axe and watching them drop in less than a second. It was fun, cool, and exciting, for about an hour...

You make some good points and I get where you're coming from, however I would suggest you give ZOS a little bit of time on this front, you said you played WoW for PvP and if you recall back in vanilla the most popular BG for level capped players was Alterac Valley, which was basically a big "zerg fest" similar to what ESO is offering now, personally I had a blast with that type of PvP but Blizzard went on to further develop options for players like yourself that enjoy the smaller scale tactical PvP scenarios (smaller BG's, Arenas, etc..,) which was great.

I'd suggest just giving ZOS a chance and see where they take this since I'm sure they're aware that there are MANY PvP'ers like yourself that prefer a more "up close and personal" approach to PvP rather than large scale strategic scenarios.

Happy Hunting!

Kolache · April 2014

Rickey wrote: »

[*] "ESO is trying to be different, sorry kid." - If I host a contest to see, who could get from USA to Australia the fastest and the winner gets a million dollars, how many of you are going to swim instead of take a plane? Weird analogy but what im saying is, usually you want to do what works first, and then innovate. Im 21.

And if you had a contest to see how fast someone could sail from USA to Australia you wouldn't include planes, and it would obviously be more geared towards sailing aficionados.

People say "go back to WoW", because they are tired of hearing opinions that aren't simply a singular "this is what I want", but instead are supposed to be more valuable because these people claim to "know what works".

The funny thing is that if you ask these people what some other 'successful' MMOs are they won't even have a list to give you. "GW2 is dead", "SWTOR is dead", FF, LOTRO, Neverwinter are dead, etc. Do what I want lest ye be cast aside to the failed MMO pile, (which also includes games that did what I wanted).

WoW is a package deal. It didn't/doesn't succeed because of any handful of features alone. You obviously can't just take the things that Rickey feels are important to MMOs, plug them in somewhere else, and expect success. If it worked that way then there would be a lot more successful MMOs out there.

So,

Go back to WoW
This isn't WoW
ESO is trying to be different, sorry kid
If you don't like the game, go player another
No, this is ESO PvP, if you don't like it, too bad

Audigy · April 2014

The only time pvp in wow worked was Vanilla, sadly the OP didn't play Vanilla.

Back then you had a ranking system and for that ranking system you had three options.

1. World PVP
2. BG PVP
3. Duells

It was impossible to get Rank 14 by just doing one of the things, so you had to combine them. I was a two time Rank 14 player and it was a blast. Interesting was, that World PVP had some type of crime system.

If you killed innocent players, then you lost ranking points.

This is and was the only time in wow when a pvp community actually existed and now guess why? Not because of Arena´s as the OP implies, but because of world pvp, consequences and long lasting fights.

PvP in wow today is all about dealing a massive hit, instantly killing your opponent. Wow PVP is the worst pvp currently in the business, so be glad OP that TESO is more like Vanilla wow or games like DAOC.

scruffycavetroll · April 2014

wow had 10 years to develop...and imo got worse over time, speaking as someone who was in the beta for vanilla (pre all expansions)...the best incarnation of that game

wonder what ESO would look like with 10 years of development. give it time, there is a lot that needs to be done, and i haven't pvp'd yet, looking forward to it.

Kolache · April 2014

Audigy wrote: »

The only time pvp in wow worked was Vanilla, sadly the OP didn't play Vanilla.

Back then you had a ranking system and for that ranking system you had three options.

1. World PVP
2. BG PVP
3. Duells

Agreed, but the server I played on actually had great PvP even before BGs came out. That's why they had to even have dishonorable kills back then, because smaller hubs were frequently routed by the opposing faction, and city raids weren't uncommon either--at least on my server. Probably the most fun I've ever had in PvP.

LIQUID741 · April 2014

I enjoyed the OP's post. The PVP, IMO is going to get a lot better once more hit 50 and are done with the grind of lvling. I could see it being the "thing to do" in ESO...along with everything else.

Do not want arena's hate when they are even mentioned. I feel they ruined PVP somewhat for WoW...open world PVP seemed to just go away with the dumpster fire of Arena. Now...on that point, I would love to see a Arena type area for all 3 realms to meet at and put up our best against their best...kinda like a common dueling area...hell! even take bets on who's going to win!

BigDumbViking · April 2014

I totally agree with OP, I don't like the idea of arenas or deathmatch PVP... I hated that crap when they introduced it in WOW, I hated that they brought it to SWTOR... it's garbage cheap cop out to PVP.

The problem I have is the anonymity of the PVP. These massive Zergs get so big you can't tell what classes, guilds, player names you are even fighting.

1. You can make capturing certain keeps, instance based so that you can only have 1 full raid group both attacking and defending. That makes it a 20v20 battle, as opposed to 100v50 like they can be now.

2. Add instanced dungeons within Cyrodil where you can fight for a resource in a controlled objective based battle with a smaller group.

3. Add guild tags and nameplates as toggle-able options...

Zakua · April 2014

I like your ideas....but I come from EVE a terrible game (best pvp game EVER).

Yeah Team arenas would be pretty cool I think.
Gladiator 1v1, oh yes please. You could have a Gladiator stadium in each major region, oh man that could be fun. Leader boards...name tag achievements (IF u have nametags TOGGLED on of course hah)

Hell even simple Duals you could request from players. The dual mechanic would not allow actual death, you would submit and no loss to charges/armor when dualing. So we can mess about with builds and such, good old fashion arse grabbing ya'know.