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"Tank Meta" how to fix it?
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Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »why heavy armor anyways, you get 27k in medium with a nord.
Most builds run about 15k penetration. So that 27k goes down to 12k. Squishy. That is why the real tanks run about 60k resistance to negate penetration.
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Glad I could make you laugh, but it is not unheard of Mace/ maul with give 20% pen and fracture/major breach against a player who is at 33k cap 11,880 right there.
And as far as my tank I run 60k resistance with Alessian order so it is not wasted. And my crit resist is 4.5k, I learned long ago that 6k dps doesn't mean diddley if they can't penetrate.0 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭Red CP needs nerfing
SnB passives that reduce cost or mitigate need to be cut in half
Defensive sets are too powerful and need adjustment
While health isn’t an indicator of how tanks someone is there needs to be a cap put on health at 30k
I disagree. Health is vital for tanks because many of abilities run off of max health. By this standard there should be a cap on weapon/spell damage and Magicka/Stamina. It is a slippery slope argument.2 -
khajiitNPC✭✭✭✭✭Aren’t why reworking oblivion damage to scale off of health? I remember reading this somewhere.0 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭1- Nerf "7th, fury, veiled, etc..." to the ground like viper sting... that's the stam meta no need to run medium armor when you can survive 10+ ppl and then get your wpn dmg buffed by just tanking them.
with those sets you get better heals better tankiness better dmg than medium armor.
2- When a player has 3+ pieces of heavy, their healing done should be reduced by 15% in pvp only, but their healing received shouldn't be changed.
3- Give more love to medium armor, like give them 15% more heals when someone is wearing 5+ piece medium.
4- Bring back the old shields ... this new shields are stupid strong. Specially on a mag sorc if feels like fighting a blazing shield templar with insane heals and dmg.
This will totaly change PvP to the best... if they implement these changes pvp should be less cancerous...
I def don't think improving healing done by 15% to medium users....... Vigor can already heal players so much the last thing we need is one of the best heals in the game to see increased healing. If vigor gets nerfed sure but I've seen vigor get up to 20k+ for a healing move over 5 seconds lol just terrible0 -
KaraBela94✭✭✭✭Heavy Meta started with Proc sets and got stronger in time by the performance issues.
Cause Heavy Armor is more forgiving, when the damage comes stacked in PVP.
So if you really want to change something...performance have to get better first.Yasin Pascha - Stamina DK - DC
Eroglu Yasin - Stamina Warden - DC1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's not really heavy armor that's the problem, it's S&B, more specifically block in regards to stam and most magicka.
There are not enough blockbreakers in the game. There is no reason why a Dswinger should be completely and utterly stifled because some dude is just holding block. You can adjust blocking's strength in PVP without touching PVE by incorporating more block breakers, or things that make blocking less enticing.
Fury/7th are just badly designed for today's CP system - both need to be reworked to work in the same spirit (when damaged, get damage), but not to the point where it just becomes oppressively huge static damage.
There isn't really much wrong defensively with Magsorc. I feel it's fine defensively. The things that throw magsorc into OP territory - matriarch damage, streak + lich + dark deal, master destro. If you remove ANY of those capabilities from magsorc they become a lot less oppressive.Edited by usmcjdking on June 22, 2019 8:27PM0331
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usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭KaraBela94 wrote: »Heavy Meta started with Proc sets and got stronger in time by the performance issues.
Cause Heavy Armor is more forgiving, when the damage comes stacked in PVP.
So if you really want to change something...performance have to get better first.
Couldn't have said it better. All the problems are cumulative... between the disparity of strength difference between gold and purple items, stats boost from cp, stats boost from undaunted, stats boost depending on how your faction is doing in the campaign, stats boost from potions that are pretty much god mode, etc, etc.
Then add that to the disparity between the armor weights and thow in a pinch of op items from dragon star/etc. and you end up with the mess we have now. That being said, I'll completely disagree with anyone that thinks that nerfing heavy to door mat status will fix the pvp in this game by itself.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People crying for nerfs fail to admit maybe their builds are crap. Run more pen. Add more damage. Run Sloads or something lol.
No matter how much mitigation anyone runs they’re only getting 50% damage reduction. Any other sources are multiplicative so it’s a percentage under 100%. Hit them fools, preferably NOT with a wet noodle.Edited by JumpmanLane on June 22, 2019 8:58PM3 -
Hashtag_✭✭✭✭✭
No it’s not I’ve seen 30-35k health targets be more tanker than 40-50k hp targets. It’s a combination of all I mention above though.Red CP needs nerfing
SnB passives that reduce cost or mitigate need to be cut in half
Defensive sets are too powerful and need adjustment
While health isn’t an indicator of how tanks someone is there needs to be a cap put on health at 30k
I disagree. Health is vital for tanks because many of abilities run off of max health. By this standard there should be a cap on weapon/spell damage and Magicka/Stamina. It is a slippery slope argument.
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Ender1310✭✭✭✭I what’s your solution? Have zero suvivabilty? Your build be able to delete characters in 2 seconds? You ready to get deleted or will you alone have the survivablity?0 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭1- Nerf "7th, fury, veiled, etc..." to the ground like viper sting... that's the stam meta no need to run medium armor when you can survive 10+ ppl and then get your wpn dmg buffed by just tanking them.
with those sets you get better heals better tankiness better dmg than medium armor.
2- When a player has 3+ pieces of heavy, their healing done should be reduced by 15% in pvp only, but their healing received shouldn't be changed.
3- Give more love to medium armor, like give them 15% more heals when someone is wearing 5+ piece medium.
4- Bring back the old shields ... this new shields are stupid strong. Specially on a mag sorc if feels like fighting a blazing shield templar with insane heals and dmg.
This will totaly change PvP to the best... if they implement these changes pvp should be less cancerous...
These are all terrible ideas.4 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭
No it’s not I’ve seen 30-35k health targets be more tanker than 40-50k hp targets. It’s a combination of all I mention above though.Red CP needs nerfing
SnB passives that reduce cost or mitigate need to be cut in half
Defensive sets are too powerful and need adjustment
While health isn’t an indicator of how tanks someone is there needs to be a cap put on health at 30k
I disagree. Health is vital for tanks because many of abilities run off of max health. By this standard there should be a cap on weapon/spell damage and Magicka/Stamina. It is a slippery slope argument.
And I have see the opposite, at some point it is opinion based on both sides, but what is not is the fact that ZoS has put abilities in the game that depend solely on health for damage, healing and shielding. This was meant solely and purely for Tanks. Capping BGs health a 30k would ruin what it is to be a tank. Tanking is much more than running in circles,dodge rolling, and burst healing. Being a Tank is standing your ground holding the objective, or carrying the chaos ball while being beaten down by everyone. It is about being a TANK. A character that takes 40- 45k dps and reduce them to 5k when going against you. Not a dps with above average def that runs around spamming vigor, uppercut and reverse slash.Edited by Rampeal on June 23, 2019 1:13AM0 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »People crying for nerfs fail to admit maybe their builds are crap. Run more pen. Add more damage. Run Sloads or something lol.
No matter how much mitigation anyone runs they’re only getting 50% damage reduction. Any other sources are multiplicative so it’s a percentage under 100%. Hit them fools, preferably NOT with a wet noodle.
Not once in my post did I ever mention a suggested nerf for heavy armor. Please read it again if you think I did. All I did suggest was removing healing from spell/weapon damage and apply it only to magicka/stamina.
Further more when medium armor the supposed "DPS" gear only has 4 weapon damage proc sets(which are very situational i.e. dodge rolling, blanking target) when heavy armor (Tank set) has 6 that only require you to take or do damage, it does need further investigation.0 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭I think the big problem is just CP. In BGs i can kill most players comically easy because of their lack of theorycraft, research of builds and bad resource management. Sorcs are tanky AF and make for great fights, they don't have unlimited resources!
In Cyro it's a different story.0 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭I think the big problem is just CP. In BGs i can kill most players comically easy because of their lack of theorycraft, research of builds and bad resource management. Sorcs are tanky AF and make for great fights, they don't have unlimited resources!
In Cyro it's a different story.
Yea. And we have now "damage" meta in BGs because you cant build tanky and taking insane damage through block with capped resistances.0 -
Katlefiya✭✭✭✭✭Ok, as someone who does not PVP much: why is this "tank meta" deemed to be a problem? If you want to "fix" something, you better start your argument with an explanation of why it needs to be fixed. And no: "it gets abused" is not an explanation in itself.
Building for survival seems to be a perfectly valid thing to do in PVP.
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D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »People crying for nerfs fail to admit maybe their builds are crap. Run more pen. Add more damage. Run Sloads or something lol.
No matter how much mitigation anyone runs they’re only getting 50% damage reduction. Any other sources are multiplicative so it’s a percentage under 100%. Hit them fools, preferably NOT with a wet noodle.
I built for balance when I could pvp without being stuck in combat forever. I did run Bloodspawn though.0 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, as someone who does not PVP much: why is this "tank meta" deemed to be a problem? If you want to "fix" something, you better start your argument with an explanation of why it needs to be fixed. And no: "it gets abused" is not an explanation in itself.
Building for survival seems to be a perfectly valid thing to do in PVP.
There are heavy armor sets that give you nice wep damage for taking/dealing damage or getting or receiving a crit. It's an easy way but NOT the only way to have an effective defensive offensive build. I've seen Medium and Light armor builds that were just as tanky and had great damage and acceptible or great sustain.2 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭Ok, as someone who does not PVP much: why is this "tank meta" deemed to be a problem? If you want to "fix" something, you better start your argument with an explanation of why it needs to be fixed. And no: "it gets abused" is not an explanation in itself.
Building for survival seems to be a perfectly valid thing to do in PVP.
Tank Meta- Basically boils down to Stam builds running a handful of Heavy armor sets and having tank resistance of 33k, 6k+ Dps, and being able to heal for 20k+ off of Vigor. It means the real only viable min/max builds are stamina tanks the rest are weak in comparison.
Most common setup is 2pc Bloodspawn, 5pc 7th legion and 5pc fury. This allow players to do burst damage, burst heals, and survive most any onslaught.
The problem is that Cydrodil is overwhelmed with these builds and it discourages people from using light and medium armor for fear of getting bursted down. It negates the need for actual tanks and healers since everyone can sustain better solo.
So in a nutshell to do Cydrodil and be successful you have to run maybe 10 cookiecutter builds using maybe a grand total of 5 sets and 3 monster helms. Are there people that don't run these? Sure but they are far and few in between.
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evoniee✭✭✭✭it is easy to kill low def enemy with low damage high def build.
it is hard to kill tanky enemy even with full damage build + healer.0 -
frostz417✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Here’s some better solutions.
1. Cap health at 30k in PvP. no reason you should be some 40k+ health bot in cyrodiil, I don’t care if you’re a cc,root, chain tank. You’re useless and you’re the problem with the game.
2. Make things like bleeds and oblivion damage scale off of health and increase damage the more health a player has
3. All unbalanced heavy armor sets like fury, truth, 7th legion, ravanger, veiled heritance need be be converted to medium instead of being heavy armor.
4. Hard cap and I mean HARD CAP all resistances to 35k in PvP.
5. Reduce damage and healing of ALL proc sets by 50%
6. Implement more mechanics like proximity detonation so people don’t just stay in a large ball of 30+ all with 30k+ health
7. Add healing caps; heals weaken the more people they hit. For example; after 4 people healing is reduced by 30% for those 5 and 6, after 6 it’s 60% for the 6th and 7th person. caps at 8 with a 90% healing cap reduction when healing the 7th and 8th person
So Basically you want Cydrodil and BGs to be Dps only. Because this would kill all tank and healing builds. You would have it be nothing but DPS running 2 maybe 3 builds. It would be bland and pvp would die so would the game.
Would be better than what is currently in cyrodiil. And healing wouldn’t be killed, nor would good tanks be killed. If you have over 40k health in PvP you’re the problem with this game and you are part of the tank meta.0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, as someone who does not PVP much: why is this "tank meta" deemed to be a problem? If you want to "fix" something, you better start your argument with an explanation of why it needs to be fixed. And no: "it gets abused" is not an explanation in itself.
Building for survival seems to be a perfectly valid thing to do in PVP.
It allows players to just soak up a huge amount of damage, heal through the remaining damage, and then build up towards their own burst window to counter your own damage. The problem isn't so much the survival, but the turning around and killing you, even though you can't touch them.
As I explained in an earlier comment, the reason why people build this way is two-fold.
One, raw damage is through the roof right now, which often leads to players just dropping dead in seconds, with no opportunity to counter and recover, if they don't build into damage reduction somewhere. Nobody likes just dropping dead, so obviously everybody would build into damage reduction to survive for more than 3 seconds.
Also want to say that PVP isn't alone in this, damage is also the highest it's ever been in PVE, with top players seeing numbers well in excess of 100k DPS under full trial conditions, where just a year ago half that was considered high, and two years ago, a third was considered high.
Two, server performance is at its worst right now, and is continuing to get worse as more and more players join. It's common for actions to be delayed for a few seconds, or worse, not be carried out at all, so you can't rely on timing blocks or heals between your combos to survive. Responding to that, players now build more into damage reduction and constant blocking/healing, so the lag isn't as detrimental to their gameplay.
As I explained, addressing the tools players use to get tanky won't do anything unless you address these two problems with the tools. If you don't, players will just look for other ways to get tanky, because damage is still excessively high, and lag is still crippling. You're addressing the symptom, not the cause.2 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think the big problem is just CP. In BGs i can kill most players comically easy because of their lack of theorycraft, research of builds and bad resource management. Sorcs are tanky AF and make for great fights, they don't have unlimited resources!
In Cyro it's a different story.
CP has the tank meta worse, since tanks in non-CP will generally run out of gas after a while, but there's definitely a tank meta in non-CP. More than a few times I've ran into builds with 30k+ health in a BG, that just turtle up and wait for their team to come deal with me. Highest health I've seen was like 47k, he couldn't touch me, but I couldn't touch him.
And, for those that say "just run away dude", no, I can't. It was in a domination match, where he was sitting on top of a flag. I run away, he gets the flag. This is honestly where the tank meta is at its worse IMO, since it directly influences how the match plays. A tanky build is extremely OP in any of the objective based game modes. Chaos Ball? He'll drop after a while, but he can hold it for a stupidly long amount of time. Capture the Relic? Good luck getting the relic off him, or getting him away from your own relic. Domination, Crazy King? As I said, they can sit on the flag, and you can't do *** to stop it from flipping.0