Kidgangster101 wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

BoudiccaStormborn wrote: »

And yet we have all these "yes" voters not wanting to remove the system but to upgrade it and make it work for everyone. This is exactly what you're saying should happen. And yet you're still unhappy.

Your idea to "enhance" the current system is to replace it with an AH with nonsensical features.

I'm all for actually enhancing the current system. Last year I posted a suggestion to implement MM functions into the client.

However, the current system needs to be preserved just as all cornerstone gameplay in ESO should be. This is a mature game that should enhance without replacing any entrenched gameplay.

Neither ESO's trade system or an AH are inherently superior than the other. Each has pros and cons. The value of each approach is subjective and ultimately comes down to how the developer envisions their game being played. This was a game designed to have robust trading. It should not even be a remote consideration to replace it after 5 years.

I hate this notion that exists that all products should be designed and endlessly redeveloped to appeal to the lowest common denominator by some kind of design by democracy -- as if ZOS should throw all of its current players under a bus if a larger audience from another game becomes interested in ESO and wants to change it.

So then what do you do about the people that are selling spots on console? That people claim doesn't happen but I'm 100% telling you it does, I have seen it first hand when my guild didn't get a spot lol.

Also what about all the people that are creating fake eso accounts so they can run multiple traders? They buy up entire areas (the most popular areas on top of that) with every single guild. Therefore others guilds have to submit to that person's will and join them for a good spot, or they have to buy a spot barely anyone goes to? (PS the leader of my trader guild is level 7............)

If you do get a good city spot the guilds that are there demand you price match them or you won't be able to get that spot again because they have more than enough money to jack up the price and kick you out.

None of those examples don't promote nor show "mature" gameplay that you speek of on console. (I can't say if this happens on PC since I play on console)

So please tell me how a global auction house wouldn't be better than guild mafias that can lock anyone out that they want? I have even heard of players being blackballed and not allowed into any trading guild on console. That is not fair.

Just on those examples alone it shows that having a trader system like this where the players are in charge of it is a terrible idea. The reason this doesn't happen in other games is you don't need a guild/trader to post items. Pugs won't care who you are they just want the item, therefore anyone can sell.

Can someone answer this? I am really curious to the answer please.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

The trading system we have now interferes with what people would actually want to do, and prevents people from expanding the social network within the game, because even moderately successful trading guilds are anything but social, no matter how hard the GMs and officers are trying.

Please don't lie. Or generalize. Or both.
All trading guilds (on PC/EU) I've participated in are extremely social - way more than most so-called "social guilds".
You may have a different experience, and I'm sorry if you had bad experiences with trading guilds, but that doesn't make it the unique and entire truth.
Saying that being in a trading guild for the purpose of selling stuff prevents people from socializing is utter nonsense.

MollyReed94 wrote: »

I'm on the fence about it, although I like the current trading system, no issues with it, I can see auction houses being useful for people who don't want to trade weekly, that don't farm for gold etc. but get a lucky drop and want to make some gold.

Those people can also find a medium social guild that puts some effort into getting a trader. There are plenty of guilds out there that are not trading guilds, but that manage to keep regular traders.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

BoudiccaStormborn wrote: »

And yet we have all these "yes" voters not wanting to remove the system but to upgrade it and make it work for everyone. This is exactly what you're saying should happen. And yet you're still unhappy.

Your idea to "enhance" the current system is to replace it with an AH with nonsensical features.

I'm all for actually enhancing the current system. Last year I posted a suggestion to implement MM functions into the client.

However, the current system needs to be preserved just as all cornerstone gameplay in ESO should be. This is a mature game that should enhance without replacing any entrenched gameplay.

Neither ESO's trade system or an AH are inherently superior than the other. Each has pros and cons. The value of each approach is subjective and ultimately comes down to how the developer envisions their game being played. This was a game designed to have robust trading. It should not even be a remote consideration to replace it after 5 years.

I hate this notion that exists that all products should be designed and endlessly redeveloped to appeal to the lowest common denominator by some kind of design by democracy -- as if ZOS should throw all of its current players under a bus if a larger audience from another game becomes interested in ESO and wants to change it.

So then what do you do about the people that are selling spots on console? That people claim doesn't happen but I'm 100% telling you it does, I have seen it first hand when my guild didn't get a spot lol.

Also what about all the people that are creating fake eso accounts so they can run multiple traders? They buy up entire areas (the most popular areas on top of that) with every single guild. Therefore others guilds have to submit to that person's will and join them for a good spot, or they have to buy a spot barely anyone goes to? (PS the leader of my trader guild is level 7............)

If you do get a good city spot the guilds that are there demand you price match them or you won't be able to get that spot again because they have more than enough money to jack up the price and kick you out.

None of those examples don't promote nor show "mature" gameplay that you speek of on console. (I can't say if this happens on PC since I play on console)

So please tell me how a global auction house wouldn't be better than guild mafias that can lock anyone out that they want? I have even heard of players being blackballed and not allowed into any trading guild on console. That is not fair.

Just on those examples alone it shows that having a trader system like this where the players are in charge of it is a terrible idea. The reason this doesn't happen in other games is you don't need a guild/trader to post items. Pugs won't care who you are they just want the item, therefore anyone can sell.

Can someone answer this? I am really curious to the answer please.

You are going to wait for that answer for a long time. They will just act like your post never happened. Btw, I'm 100% sure some of that stuff happens on the PC as well. How else can it be explained that guilds are practically owning their traders. It was hilarious when someone went and outbid them in Rawl, people acted like that person was some kind of a criminal who DARED to do what this trading system totally allowes him to do: Bid for a trader and win.

Hypocrisy and double standards are strong in this trading game.

The whole system is rotten to the core.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

BoudiccaStormborn wrote: »

And yet we have all these "yes" voters not wanting to remove the system but to upgrade it and make it work for everyone. This is exactly what you're saying should happen. And yet you're still unhappy.

Your idea to "enhance" the current system is to replace it with an AH with nonsensical features.

I'm all for actually enhancing the current system. Last year I posted a suggestion to implement MM functions into the client.

However, the current system needs to be preserved just as all cornerstone gameplay in ESO should be. This is a mature game that should enhance without replacing any entrenched gameplay.

Neither ESO's trade system or an AH are inherently superior than the other. Each has pros and cons. The value of each approach is subjective and ultimately comes down to how the developer envisions their game being played. This was a game designed to have robust trading. It should not even be a remote consideration to replace it after 5 years.

I hate this notion that exists that all products should be designed and endlessly redeveloped to appeal to the lowest common denominator by some kind of design by democracy -- as if ZOS should throw all of its current players under a bus if a larger audience from another game becomes interested in ESO and wants to change it.

So then what do you do about the people that are selling spots on console? That people claim doesn't happen but I'm 100% telling you it does, I have seen it first hand when my guild didn't get a spot lol.

Also what about all the people that are creating fake eso accounts so they can run multiple traders? They buy up entire areas (the most popular areas on top of that) with every single guild. Therefore others guilds have to submit to that person's will and join them for a good spot, or they have to buy a spot barely anyone goes to? (PS the leader of my trader guild is level 7............)

If you do get a good city spot the guilds that are there demand you price match them or you won't be able to get that spot again because they have more than enough money to jack up the price and kick you out.

None of those examples don't promote nor show "mature" gameplay that you speek of on console. (I can't say if this happens on PC since I play on console)

So please tell me how a global auction house wouldn't be better than guild mafias that can lock anyone out that they want? I have even heard of players being blackballed and not allowed into any trading guild on console. That is not fair.

Just on those examples alone it shows that having a trader system like this where the players are in charge of it is a terrible idea. The reason this doesn't happen in other games is you don't need a guild/trader to post items. Pugs won't care who you are they just want the item, therefore anyone can sell.

How is this alright?

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

I will bump what I said earlier to see if I can get another answer and everyone is ignoring it.

Everyone ignores your question because you've been ignoring 100% of people's answers in all those threads for days. Simple logic.

Tigerseye wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

MollyReed94 wrote: »

I'm on the fence about it, although I like the current trading system, no issues with it, I can see auction houses being useful for people who don't want to trade weekly, that don't farm for gold etc. but get a lucky drop and want to make some gold.

Those people can also find a medium social guild that puts some effort into getting a trader. There are plenty of guilds out there that are not trading guilds, but that manage to keep regular traders.

Yeah, of course there are, but sales are very slow on them (PC/EU), unless items are listed at low prices, for resellers to come and buy and then relist in a better area.

Whereas, in a global auction house system, undercutting addons/bots aside (which should be banned anyway), everyone would have an equal chance of getting the sale, at the same price.

As I say, I used to be in a major trading guild and sales were pretty good, originally.

But, then they suddenly fell through the floor, because the GM had invited a bunch of new players and had changed the official guild advice to telling people to cancel and relist lower, every three days.

Thus completely removing two of the better things in this game, than in some others; the longer selling period and relative lack of same-venue undercutting.

If that hadn't happened, I would probably still only be calling for a more centralised venue for materials, as opposed to for everything.

So, you can blame the GMs, who are doing this to the trading system, for my change of heart.

But if you are a casual player with a few things to sell, does it even matter if you listed your items at 20% less than some other place? Trading is not going to be your main source of income anyway.

Whereas in a central AH, you will end up with thousands upon thousands of items listed at the lowest possible price and you have to wait months for yours to sell.

I should probably log on to GW2 and take a look at my AH queue there. I probably have stuff that's been sitting there for a year and not sold, even though it was listed at the lowest possible price.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

The trading system we have now interferes with what people would actually want to do, and prevents people from expanding the social network within the game, because even moderately successful trading guilds are anything but social, no matter how hard the GMs and officers are trying.

Please don't lie. Or generalize. Or both.
All trading guilds (on PC/EU) I've participated in are extremely social - way more than most so-called "social guilds".
You may have a different experience, and I'm sorry if you had bad experiences with trading guilds, but that doesn't make it the unique and entire truth.
Saying that being in a trading guild for the purpose of selling stuff prevents people from socializing is utter nonsense.

You're the one who's lying. If there are 500 people in the guild and 20 are social in any way, it's not working for 96% of the guild. Like I said in a previous post, many people don't even have the guild chat enabled for trading guilds, because it's just spam if you're going to be kicked a week later because of not meeting requirements, or traders talk is just a bore when all you want to do is sell stuff and move on to things that are actually fun in the game.

If you don't share any common interests with most people in the guild, there is no incentive to be social, and trading is hardly something people bond over in a game. Trading is not a community activity, it's still in essence a solo activity, even if you need a guild to participate in it. And the events that are organized by the trading guilds are just boring (normal trials, lol, and that's one of the more interesting options).

And even if I do participate and am active myself like you suggest, a month later half of those people won't be there because they didn't sell enough stuff. There is no point trying under these conditions.

If such shallow associations satisfy you, good for you, but that is not the kind of guild I'm comfortable in, and it's not the kind of guild that would keep me playing. And most if not all trading guilds in even moderately good locations are exactly like this out of necessity.

It is a shame that you have never found a good trade guild, but @anitajoneb17_ESO is not lying.
One of my 2 main trade guilds has been around since launch 2014. They also do daily pledges, have crafting days for new guildies, help with achievements, etc.
My social guild has had a trader, in same place for over 2 years as a perk for our members. The fact that we keep regular trader kinda makes us a trade guild I guess and lots of members here since beta and are like family.
My main trade guild has been around since early 2015, one of the biggest on PC/NA, and they don't have mandatory fees, have housing parties, auctions, delv runs, and games.

Just because you never found a "social" trade guild doesn't mean they don't exist. No lie! Lol..

And again, I will address the "Elephant" in the room.......
ESO is ran on a "MegaServer". It does not have shards and such as WoW and GW's.
To put in a "Old Style" Auction House would mean a brand new server engine, that Zo$ won't do, or a AH with over million listings to read and imagine the lag from that.
AH is not feasible in ESO. Period.

Tigerseye wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

MollyReed94 wrote: »

I'm on the fence about it, although I like the current trading system, no issues with it, I can see auction houses being useful for people who don't want to trade weekly, that don't farm for gold etc. but get a lucky drop and want to make some gold.

Those people can also find a medium social guild that puts some effort into getting a trader. There are plenty of guilds out there that are not trading guilds, but that manage to keep regular traders.

Yeah, of course there are, but sales are very slow on them (PC/EU), unless items are listed at low prices, for resellers to come and buy and then relist in a better area.

Whereas, in a global auction house system, undercutting addons/bots aside (which should be banned anyway), everyone would have an equal chance of getting the sale, at the same price.

As I say, I used to be in a major trading guild and sales were pretty good, originally.

But, then they suddenly fell through the floor, because the GM had invited a bunch of new players and had changed the official guild advice to telling people to cancel and relist lower, every three days.

Thus completely removing two of the better things in this game, than in some others; the longer selling period and relative lack of same-venue undercutting.

If that hadn't happened, I would probably still only be calling for a more centralised venue for materials, as opposed to for everything.

So, you can blame the GMs, who are doing this to the trading system, for my change of heart.

But if you are a casual player with a few things to sell, does it even matter if you listed your items at 20% less than some other place? Trading is not going to be your main source of income anyway.

Whereas in a central AH, you will end up with thousands upon thousands of items listed at the lowest possible price and you have to wait months for yours to sell.

I should probably log on to GW2 and take a look at my AH queue there. I probably have stuff that's been sitting there for a year and not sold, even though it was listed at the lowest possible price.

Of course it does.

The more "casual" you are, the more you probably need the gold.

I far prefer the GW2 system - at least I can walk away and leave it to its own devices without returning to dozens of expired items in a mailbox.

Do you? And that gold is going to come from selling a couple of items a month? Or is it going to come from playing the game? Because you can get a good chunk of money from writs, quests and just vendoring trash you find along the way.

And then you can buy stuff with that gold because, unlike GW2, most items worth having don't cost 1000x what you can make casually playing the game. And if they do, you can go get them yourself (as I recently decided to do when I saw that an item I needed had become very pricey because it was popular).

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

The current implementation of guild traders serves as a sizable gold sink, with top guilds spending ~25M gold every week on traders. This gets that money out of the game, preventing the money from becoming worthless as more and more and more and more fills the game.

If there was a global AH, they would need to have a *sizeable* game tax on all sales, like 40% or something, to make it even. Are you cool with that?

Agreed - there is a need for a gold sink of some description.

Even if the AH ran alone (note - I prefer a dual system) the loss of gold sink from trade kiosk bids would be offset, at least partially, by the increase in the number of sellers against whom a tax was levied. The shortfall in taxes would not be equal to the gold sink loss if guilds shut down - it would be less because there would be more sellers. Enough of them to fill the gap? Don't know. I did a quick and dirty calculation in order to see the numbers that might be required. Won't publish them atm. My guess is the shortfall might not be as large as might be supposed.

Last year, iirc, ZoS gave away 100,000 gold as an ESO+ reward one month. Let's say...hmmm... 5,000 ESO+ subscribers? That would have injected 500 million gold overnight - around 20 times the 25 million per week figure you cited - 20 weeks equivalent of the top guilds' bidding fees. Even a lowly 1,000 ESO+ subscribers would have meant an additional 100 million gold was created overnight. I suppose the issue is one of regular purging, but the total value of the ESO+ gold reward was many orders of magnitude larger than 25 million. Maybe the amount sunk every week is much larger than 25 million. I'm only basing my comments on the figure you cited and I'm not going to hold you to it. And you did say "top guilds" which doesn't take into account ALL guilds.

Glurin wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

@anitajoneb17_ESO

- so if you want to stay in trade guild you actually even have to play in way to get something for trade to not be kicked from guild
- there are players who just get something wroth to sell sometimes and thus they are forced to join to trade guild to be able to sell this without more problems
- as it was already sayed ofc most of PC users have addons for this and when they are using them..then why they are still against GAH? thi sis real nonsense as saying GAH is no needed while using addons in game which are making this system more closer to GAH than current
- console player always had worse in ESO in any way and even not viability to use addons doesnt explain this as currently players with addons also want things to QoL which are mainly asking console players - this is showing how not good system is for player even if they have access to addons improving this

- point 1 : No, you don't. First, because if you have nothing to sell, you can always compensate your lack of sales with a small fee. And secondly, because whatever you play in the game, you always collect something worth selling along the way. And thirdly, because many trading guilds do not have sales requirements. And I'll also add, that as long as you're a bit social, make yourself known and participate a bit a the guild's life, you won't get kicked no matter how much you sell.

- Point 2 : using addons doesnt equate to wanting a GAH. Why should it ? Addons do NOT mimick GAH. Not at all. You're imagining things here.

- Point 3 : Console players get the worse version of the game - agreed. But that's their choice, they should deal with this with ZOS, Sony and Microsoft, and a GAH is not going to change that. It's not the fault of PC players nor of addon authors, and I certainly will not agree to a GAH solely for the sake of console players.

- Point 3(b) : what do you know about what PC players want or don't want ? Again some imaginary statistics or heard-of rumours carefully picked to suit your agenda ?

Sorry if I sound aggressive, but as a matter of fact, I consider you as intellectually dishonest. Especially since you're repeating the same things over and over and over while genuine, sensible and structured answers have been provided all over these threads - and I'm pretty sure you've read and understood them.

1) Your generalizations are false. I know you think 10k per week, per Trade Guild is a small fee, since you probably have millions. But to a lot of people its exorbitant. Judging All others by comparing it to your Own position is ludicrous. You also have no idea what some guilds will do as far as kicking members. I am in two trade guilds. If you don't sell or pay you get kicked. Period. They both have a hard time keeping their Trader and THAT over-rules any social aspects one may contribute.

2) Using addons Does equate to the AH. With the GAH - you pull up listings for what you want to sell and immediately see what the item is selling for across the game. The addons are designed to do the same thing - give you a good idea of what the item is selling for across the game.

3) Skrue Console players? Nice attitude. Again, this is not an issue of Game play in the sense of developing your character and completing Achievements. The fact that the Game IS put out for Console players gives the Company a responsibility to address the issue of Addons. Its the Company that allows addons for the PC group. The Company should be taking All the various systems in the game into account and have Something equitable for the Console player. Why would you put the game on another platform if you know it will be bashed and berated and your Company name run into the ground when it does not have half of the systems available to PC users?

4) Don't patronize. You are Not sorry that you sound aggressive. You are intentionally trying to give out the 'I know all' vibe. You are not interested in discussion because you are not interested in LISTENING to what others say. You know what you like. You don't Care what other people like. And you don't Care what might be best for the game as a whole. You just want what you want. Period.

1) If 10k per week per guild is not small to you, maybe that's because you're in too many guilds and selling too few goods. You don't have to fill all five guild slots with trade guilds. If you're only selling around ten items at a time, then you don't need 150 sales slots. As for the fee itself, you can make 10k just from the gold reward for doing daily crafting writs. It's not at all difficult.

2) The addons fall well short of an AH. TTC gives you an overview of what items are being listed for globally while MM gives you an idea of how items are doing within your own guild. They each have their place in their current form as useful tools to aid in trade, but an AH completely obliterates both of them. Under an AH system, you see every item for sale in the entire world in real time and all you have to do is either list your item for one gold less than whatever the lowest priced one currently listed is or buy whatever item is at the top of the list. There's no thought involved. No effort. You may as well be buying and selling directly with an NPC.

3) There's good reasons why PCs are superior gaming rigs and it's not because people don't care about console players.

4) Ironic that you say that. Have you actually read the yes vote posts in here? Including your own?

1) Or, maybe it's because we are Forced to be in a trading guild IF we ever want to sell anything. I'm not in 5 trading guilds. Paying 50k per week is ludicrous. I am in 2 Trading Guilds but Only because there are specific times of the year when I need to sell something. Specifically - Events. Events hand out motifs and other oddities that would be stupid to vendor. And even more stupid to just waste on Alts. But I don't need a Trader every week. And there are a lot of players in the same boat.

And it does not matter how many Trials and Dungeons a player runs with their Guild. The Guild MUST pay for a Trader every week. Social activities don't make the Guild any money. So if you don't sell - in my Guilds' cases 75k per week, or don't pay the 10k, you will get kicked. There is a one strike policy. This never happens with a GAH. The player never loses the opportunity to sell their items.

2) Yes, you would not need those addons with a GAH. That is true. So that's a couple addons no one needs to download anymore. You just pointed out exactly why the GAH is the better system. It allows Every player to get their item out in front of Every other player in the game simply and efficiently. The 'Buyer Pool' is in the multiple thousands. The Trader system, the buyer has to physically come to your trader just to see your product. The 'Buyer Pool' is much lower. No thought and no effort SHOULD be the system. The Game Economy is supposed to be a sideline. It's not supposed to be some major role playing event, like taking a step toward defeating Molag Bal. The whole purpose is to just allow players, who have something to sell, to get their product out to as many other players as possible, so it can BE sold. That's it. That's the whole crux of a Game Economy.

3) I'm not getting in to the one is superior to the other. I use PC and I like it. Never had a console so I can't evaluate the two. But that has no bearing on this issue. When a Company puts out a game across multiple platforms, the Company has a responsibility to make the game " the same " across all the platforms. Having specific benefits for one platform over another is just not good business sense. IMHO, if the Company allows an addon to one platform, but another platform can't download addons, the Game on the second platform should already have the basic benefits that can be downloaded with addons. The Console map should already have skyshards, books, destinations, dolmens, etc on it when you pull it up. You don't need Everything you could possibly get. But the solid core addons that make the game so much easier to just Play the game should already be part of the Console Map.

4) Yes, I have read them.

Here's a Solution

Leave the Traders Guild system in place just as it is. ADD a Global Auction House.



Now, If your first gut reaction was " But that would put the Traders out of business ! ", then we seem to have answered the question about which system the majority of the players would like to use.

IMHO

1) So I was right. You're in too many guilds and selling too few items. Not only that, you're in the wrong guilds. You don't need the major traders. You just need one of the small ones with no fees or sales quotas. Yes, they do exist.

2) You know, trials would be really simple and efficient if we could just buy all the top quality gear that drops there from the crown store. Maybe ZoS should do that. That way everyone has access to it instead of being forced to join a trial group. I mean, it's not like trials are supposed to be some major role playing event, right? The whole purpose is to just get gear. That's it.

Think about it. That's exactly the kind of argument you're trying to use here.

3) "But that has no bearing on this issue." Wrong. Consoles have certain limitations, both technical and political, that developers have to account for if they want their game to be published on those platforms. Limitations that PCs don't. Not only that, but it is completely unreasonable to expect them to predict every conceivable addon might be created for PCs and then implement them into the base game on consoles. Unreasonable and contrary to the vision of what they want the game to be like. Why, for example, are you demanding that everything already be explored for you? Just because some people prefer an addon that puts a big neon sign over everything doesn't mean it should be standard.

4) It's not a matter of preference. It's a matter of unfair competition. Just the number of sellers alone is a huge problem. How is a guild with 500 people at most supposed to compete against a single trader with tens of thousands of sellers minimum? How is a guild with just 100 people supposed to do it? Not to mention this trader can never be bought out and has locations all over the continent. This would only serve to undermine the system we have, which I'm certain is exactly what you want.

1) 2 trading guilds is too many? That's an interesting opinion. And you say I am in the Wrong guilds. Somewhere I missed the document that clarified which Guilds are 'right' and which are 'wrong'. Must have been delivered to the wrong mailbox. <that's a joke > What you don't mention is that 'one of the small ones' may not even Have a trader on any specific week. When I DO have items I want to sell, I would like to Actually get them sold. I don't want to list them and wait two weeks wondering if I have to pull them down and try again. Additionally, it's Always a poor idea to tie yourself to one single source. By having 2 Guilds I can split up my items and have a slightly better chance of them being sold. Not as much of a chance as a GAH, but better than just having one Guild.

2) We would not be paying for a GAH with Crowns (ie -real money) Sure, there is always some weird percentage that just vaporizes gold into the game per sale as some sort of fee. But its always small. I have no idea why you throw the Crown store out here as if It were a Factor. The existence of a GAH does not improve your character at all. Sure, It will allow the player to find and buy that IN-game gear with IN-game gold much faster than running around every zone doing the Poke-and-Hope method of buying. Additionally, if you think Trials are NOT 'just' to get gear, then you should go back and read all the threads from players who got kicked because they were new, or were too slow, or didn't do enough DPS. A lot of players run - and I do mean : RUN - those trials JUST to get them over with and get the gear.

3) Don't twist the words please. I very clearly stated that the Consoles should have the BASIC benefits PC addons give - on the Map you see skyshards, books, interesting locations, that sort of thing. I also very clearly stated "YOU DON'T NEED EVERYTHING YOU COULD POSSIBLY GET ' , referring to not needing every single addon that was available, to point out that I was NOT talking about trying to give Consoles EVERY addon. But you missed that apparently. What was it you said about 'reading' the posts?

4) It's only 'unfair competition' when the vast majority of the players prefer one system over the other. A single Guild of 500 is not Supposed to be able to compete with a single trader of tens of thousands of sellers. That's the whole point on Why the GAH is a better system. When Both systems are compared, the Better System should be able to present itself. And as you admit, as far as the Actual bare bones buying and selling, the GAH is the more efficient system.

You want to apply your Personal Preference, of making like the traveling around to the individual traders and immersing into the 'my character is making deal' role-play type aspect to the entire game. You like that, and that's fine. But you are not in the majority. Yet you insist on claiming the Trader system is the ' Superior' system. When it's not. You readily admit that if a GAH were added to the game, the Traders would fold up shop. The only reason That would happen is if More players used the GAH than they did the Traders. And the Only reason the players would use the GAH more than the Traders is if it was to their benefit.

The Traders are Not a major part of Role-play. The players are not 'Talking' to anyone or role-playing with anyone when they put items up for sale or when they buy. Making characters travel from point to point is not role-play. The Traders are actually just the Game Market Economy. Just as a GAH is simply a Game Market Economy. And the Economy is not supposed to be a dominant role-playing issue in Any game. It is a sideline mechanic that allows the Economy to function. Nothing more.

IMHO