Wings nerf is a game breaker!

Sav72 · June 2019

DKs complaining.........

ROFL

JumpmanLane · June 2019

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

I main magDK in both PVE and PVP, and I can say without a doubt that wings when they reflected :
PvE were useless unless you were solo'ing some really weird stuff like vFL HM by yourself ( it's been done for some reason lol )
PvP the wings were such a terrible mechanic, it could reflect all the damage AND cc onto the person using it making them kill themselves which is just an awful time.

I do agree that 50% mitigation is a great factor, but I only have one slot on my backbar for a defense skill in it's spot, and the 2 seconds of snare immunity doesn't make it up for the fact I'm eating projectiles, I would rather use harness magicka, mist form, or even race against time ( which I don't because I'm too lazy to switch from channeled bc PvE ) because the latter two give me major expedition so I can actually hit things with more than light attacks and not be perma-snared ( some people just spam encase when they are in a group ), and the first one is useful against ALL builds, while projectiles are only useful against if someone is using a ranged weapon which bow light attacks don't really hurt all that much and snipe is easy to block so I don't even use that as an argument because if you are using snipe you are probably bad and I don't need any help killing you.

So would I call this skill useless now? In PvP, for me, personally, yes. The offensive morph is funny to kill people with spamming projectiles at you every .5s but unless I know who I'm fighting beforehand it can be completely use to my opponent.

In some situations it's amazing in PvE ( tank wise, dps it'd be stupid. )

Reverting reflect would be terrible, I would rather see reflect removed completely because it's a stupid mechanic period, but, the only time reflect really annoys me is npc's spamming eclipse every cc cooldown on me, so eh, I don't care enough.

My suggestion would be keep the skill the way it is, or add Major Expedition on the non-offensive morph, then I'd use it, otherwise, I'll use it when I'm feeling corny for the offensive morph, because the snare reduction doesn't make up for the fact you can kite around me with little problems spamming me especially with large numbers.

If you relied on this skill for your build before, well, adapt and realize it was a broken, overpowered skill.

Using vamp for snare removal and major expedition is nuts. Too many dawnbreakers and MagDk’s out there for that to be viable.

RAT vs wings is basically Major expedition vs 50% multiplicative damage mitigation on ALL PROJECTILES, like 90% if you’re blocking with a shield. I unno SnB/Wings THIS patch lol. And MOP fools off the floor! Pop a speed immovable pot or something lol. My thing with race against time is do I really need to be moving fast every time I remove a snare. Personally, I’d rather have the same mitigation from bowtards as if I were holding up block even though I’m not. lol

Reflecting 4 projectiles for 6 seconds was not op lol by the way.

Jodynn · June 2019

Using vamp for snare removal and major expedition is nuts. Too many dawnbreakers and MagDk’s out there for that to be viable.

Works fine for me

RAT vs wings is basically Major expedition vs 50% multiplicative damage mitigation on ALL PROJECTILES, like 90% if you’re blocking with a shield. I unno SnB/Wings THIS patch lol. And MOP fools off the floor! Pop a speed immovable pot or something lol.

It's not about if I can eat projectiles, I can use harness magicka and block and get no damage, it's about is it versatile enough to be useful, for me, it's only useful against people whom use projectiles, I find it not worth it just for 2s snare immunity obviously.
Also, I use a crit build, you can argue that crit is useless in PvP because people wear impen ( it's not btw ), but the minor force it gives is very useful, IF, you build right.

Reflecting 4 projectiles for 6 seconds was not op lol by the way.

It was very much OP, if you played any other class against a DK you would understand this, you could kill pretty much anyone with just the factor of their own light attacks doing 50% of your dps, even from my point of a view as a magDK against a DK using wings, I would do 40% damage with my own light attacks, if you weave every attack, you would see this to be true as well.

Against large numbers of people, it was just silly, but then again anything against large numbers of people is pretty silly.

BlackMadara · June 2019

I dislike that it is gone, but can see why reflect was considered a problem. 50% damage reduction is still strong, and DFS returns a hefty amount of damage. Pretty hilarious to see unaware bow users kill themselves.

I'm finding it hard to justify running protective for snare immunity over RAT though. RAT gives psijic passives, 30% speed, minor force, and snare removal for 2387 cost. Wings gives 50% ranged damage reduction (has been shown to reduce damage from more than just projectiles) and snare removal for 3138 cost. As far as snares go, the increased speed from RAT makes it easier to get out of AoEs. That, combined with lower cost, and potentially increased damage makes it seem like the better choice.

That said, I'm considering trying protective to free up a bar slot. Gonna try slotting ele drain. Would increased pen and mag return outweigh the movement speed and minor force of RAT? I'll see how it feels.

Wandering_Immigrant · June 2019

Random thought while reading through the tread, maybe it would've been cool if instead of straight replacing the reflect for damage mitigation, they could have kept the reflect, but made it de-buffable by using an aoe or cone ability.

Something like, when hit with an aoe ability you absorb 15℅ of the damage per remaining reflect proc, but lose those remaining reflect procs. That could've made for some more interesting and unique counterplay I think.

Anyway, just a thought, carry on.

JumpmanLane · June 2019

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Using vamp for snare removal and major expedition is nuts. Too many dawnbreakers and MagDk’s out there for that to be viable.

Works fine for me

RAT vs wings is basically Major expedition vs 50% multiplicative damage mitigation on ALL PROJECTILES, like 90% if you’re blocking with a shield. I unno SnB/Wings THIS patch lol. And MOP fools off the floor! Pop a speed immovable pot or something lol.

It's not about if I can eat projectiles, I can use harness magicka and block and get no damage, it's about is it versatile enough to be useful, for me, it's only useful against people whom use projectiles, I find it not worth it just for 2s snare immunity obviously.
Also, I use a crit build, you can argue that crit is useless in PvP because people wear impen ( it's not btw ), but the minor force it gives is very useful, IF, you build right.

Reflecting 4 projectiles for 6 seconds was not op lol by the way.

It was very much OP, if you played any other class against a DK you would understand this, you could kill pretty much anyone with just the factor of their own light attacks doing 50% of your dps, even from my point of a view as a magDK against a DK using wings, I would do 40% damage with my own light attacks, if you weave every attack, you would see this to be true as well.

Against large numbers of people, it was just silly, but then again anything against large numbers of people is pretty silly.

The damage from fire makes running vamp for MIST super silly. You will get reckt by any decent magdk period. If not, it's because you got lucky misting away.

Tons of people use ranged attacks AT range. Not just sorcs. Perhaps your build works in a zerg. I say this because you say fighting outnumbered is silly. I'm not saying you should be 1vxing but EVERYONE fights outnumbered sometimes. Your build should at least be strong enough to kiLL ONE of them SOMETIMES 1VX OR it's weak.

JumpmanLane · June 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

I dislike that it is gone, but can see why reflect was considered a problem. 50% damage reduction is still strong, and DFS returns a hefty amount of damage. Pretty hilarious to see unaware bow users kill themselves.

I'm finding it hard to justify running protective for snare immunity over RAT though. RAT gives psijic passives, 30% speed, minor force, and snare removal for 2387 cost. Wings gives 50% ranged damage reduction (has been shown to reduce damage from more than just projectiles) and snare removal for 3138 cost. As far as snares go, the increased speed from RAT makes it easier to get out of AoEs. That, combined with lower cost, and potentially increased damage makes it seem like the better choice.

That said, I'm considering trying protective to free up a bar slot. Gonna try slotting ele drain. Would increased pen and mag return outweigh the movement speed and minor force of RAT? I'll see how it feels.

Dude, I ain’t being funny. I ain’t! I ain’t! But how in the WORLD are you running MagDk without Ele Drain?

Look, run RAT if you want to. It ain’t necessarily a bad skill at all, albeit a particularly weird playstyle tho (I can with VERY good justification call your playstyle weird if you ain’t running Ele Drain. Point blank and period. Lol).

Wings/SnB is probably the best way to run MagDk THIS patch. There is no reason at ALL to pick RAT over wings AND Ele Drain. You’re just gimping yourself. Folks are TANKY now days. You better have a source of Major Sorcery too lol.

Are you talking PvE? No way you’re PvPing not running Ele Drain. Do you run whip and leap? Lol. Nvm. I’m being funny and I shouldn’t be. BUT. DUDE...I just can’t take your ideas seriously on MagDk like at all lol.

Convince me otherwise. Tell me what you’re running.

Geeze run Undo on your back bar if you want Psijic passives AND minor protection. Hehehehe if you’re gonna honestly try to peck away at folks without MAJOR BREACH you’re gonna def need 8% damage mitigation on your turtle bar lol. As IF 50% damage mitigation vs projectiles is something you’re only CONSIDERING (91% with a shield on ALL projectiles vs 4). Geeze...50% 0n projectiles over 30% while CHANELLING). Oh I’m gonna die laughing lol.

Vlad9425 · June 2019

DK’s had it way too easy essentially avoiding half the offence of most ranged classes. The nerf was necessary and also it’s not like the ability is bad now it’s still pretty decent.

Shanehere · June 2019

jdmoonan wrote: »

if wings counter your class don't fight them.

That's an indicator of a MagDK who was too reliant on the reflect. The guaranteed ranged damage mitigation for 6 seconds is still strong while at the same time not being a complete hard counter to fully-ranged characters, which is fair. To say that people should completely avoid 1 of the 6 classes in the game because of its ability to counter an entire build is only proving it needed to be changed.

yodased · June 2019

Took my mag dk into PvP for the first time since the change last night juat so i could actually add to this discussion.

Fwiw my thoughts:

Whip change is a needed burst of kill power.
Wings change removes what I considered to be 1 of 2 skills that defines the magdk. Reduction of damage from projectiles is great, but it doesn't feel the same way.

I understand what is going on, they fire woebler who was all about creating classes that "feel" great and "powerful". Bring in gilliam and look at numbers to balance things.

All good things, but it's not enough.

Why do nightblades still have cloak? If you objectively look at wings and say it's op then you have to objectively look at cloak in the same eyes.

There were just as many "counters" to wings as there is for cloak so that false comparison lets preempt.

If you objectively want to balance the game, which if you are saying wings changes did, then cloak has to go too.

Joy_Division · June 2019

jdmoonan wrote: »

I hope you will listen to the points I have made and really make up for this hit to mag dk.

What more do you want? Every other skill in DK kit got buffed last patch and the spec is a top performer, yet you're still complaining about the "hit." If you're out there struggling because now all of a sudden you have to deal with projectile stuns like every other (weaker) class, that's a you problem, not the devs gutted your class problem.

Solariken · June 2019

While you made your points intelligently, I still disagree. When I've got wings up I sit and laugh at ranged builds trying to pepper me from the bushes. The change actually felt like a quality of life increase to me because I no longer have to spam Wings, I can cast once and then go ham on offense.

Don't forget they also gave a huge buff to Coag so you can recover from burst more easily. They also shortened mDK burst window by A LOT with the Molten Whip change. No longer do you have to spend 6 GCDs setting up a kill.

I think mDk is feeling pretty good this patch, speaking mostly from bg's and noCP Cyro.

brandonv516 · June 2019

yodased wrote: »

Took my mag dk into PvP for the first time since the change last night juat so i could actually add to this discussion.

Fwiw my thoughts:

Whip change is a needed burst of kill power.
Wings change removes what I considered to be 1 of 2 skills that defines the magdk. Reduction of damage from projectiles is great, but it doesn't feel the same way.

I understand what is going on, they fire woebler who was all about creating classes that "feel" great and "powerful". Bring in gilliam and look at numbers to balance things.

All good things, but it's not enough.

Why do nightblades still have cloak? If you objectively look at wings and say it's op then you have to objectively look at cloak in the same eyes.

There were just as many "counters" to wings as there is for cloak so that false comparison lets preempt.

If you objectively want to balance the game, which if you are saying wings changes did, then cloak has to go too.

NBs have one strong self heal, which slotting it consequently requires them to give up class invisiblity.

This is more balanced though I suppose.

Maybe they should have done something similar to Wings and kept one morph with the ability to reflect, but the other morph would need to be as equally attractive.

But I still didn't like how Wings could shut down certain builds completely so I am absolutely content with the changes.

killingspreeb16_ESO · June 2019

yodased wrote: »

Took my mag dk into PvP for the first time since the change last night juat so i could actually add to this discussion.

Fwiw my thoughts:

Whip change is a needed burst of kill power.
Wings change removes what I considered to be 1 of 2 skills that defines the magdk. Reduction of damage from projectiles is great, but it doesn't feel the same way.

I understand what is going on, they fire woebler who was all about creating classes that "feel" great and "powerful". Bring in gilliam and look at numbers to balance things.

All good things, but it's not enough.

Why do nightblades still have cloak? If you objectively look at wings and say it's op then you have to objectively look at cloak in the same eyes.

There were just as many "counters" to wings as there is for cloak so that false comparison lets preempt.

If you objectively want to balance the game, which if you are saying wings changes did, then cloak has to go too.

Yeah because cloak and wings had literally the same counter and used to work the same way /facepalm.

Tell me the many counter of wings that works so well to literally shut down the skill like you can do with cloak.

Let's see there is a potion that make ranged skill not refectable?

Attack someone with wings up remove them like when you attack someone from cloak?

Does every aoe or delayed skill break wings like they do with cloak?

Magelight and co works against wing removing them and suppress them for the debuff duration?

Just sayin tell me all those counter that where making wings easy to deal like i can do when im playing against a cloaker

But yeah let's "nerf" cloak make it cost 50% more everycast but remove many counter that break it and at the same time buff most of the NB skill so then we can open a thread how NB are "weak"after cloak is nerfed.

Haink · June 2019

jdmoonan wrote: »

I want to bring to the attention of the devs the fallacy of the wings change(NERF). This change was a horrible one. I don't think that it is understood how important the reflect on wings was for mag dk.

wall of text

Wings are fine the way they were, they didn't really need a nerf. But they are also fine the way they are now. As of late in Cyrodiil I have been watching magicka DKs whip their way through 6-10 players like they are paper. DKs are fine, maybe look at a different build. I didn't read your entire post to be honest. Anytime I see people crying about DKs I just kind of chuckle. I have seen below average players destroying people lately in cyro with DKs. Guess it is all perspective?

yodased · June 2019

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Took my mag dk into PvP for the first time since the change last night juat so i could actually add to this discussion.

Fwiw my thoughts:

Whip change is a needed burst of kill power.
Wings change removes what I considered to be 1 of 2 skills that defines the magdk. Reduction of damage from projectiles is great, but it doesn't feel the same way.

I understand what is going on, they fire woebler who was all about creating classes that "feel" great and "powerful". Bring in gilliam and look at numbers to balance things.

All good things, but it's not enough.

Why do nightblades still have cloak? If you objectively look at wings and say it's op then you have to objectively look at cloak in the same eyes.

There were just as many "counters" to wings as there is for cloak so that false comparison lets preempt.

If you objectively want to balance the game, which if you are saying wings changes did, then cloak has to go too.

Yeah because cloak and wings had literally the same counter and used to work the same way /facepalm.

Tell me the many counter of wings that works so well to literally shut down the skill like you can do with cloak.

Let's see there is a potion that make ranged skill not refectable?

Attack someone with wings up remove them like when you attack someone from cloak?

Does every aoe or delayed skill break wings like they do with cloak?

Magelight and co works against wing removing them and suppress them for the debuff duration?

Just sayin tell me all those counter that where making wings easy to deal like i can do when im playing against a cloaker

But yeah let's "nerf" cloak make it cost 50% more everycast but remove many counter that break it and at the same time buff most of the NB skill so then we can open a thread how NB are "weak"after cloak is nerfed.

Ok sure.

The only shutdown a magdk had against a stamblade was to reflect the poison injection taking them put of cloak and locking them down.

Now you get free openers with absolutely no way to shut you down without knowing where you are first. Before you had to pick your targets since a reflect could ruin your day.

Now you are free to gank.

It's interesting how the only ones who hated wings and are for cloak are gankers. Juat because you like a certain play style doesn't make it balanced.

Im not saying wings should be put back. I get why they were changed and i accept that it needed to change for balance and the health of the game.

Can you objectively look at cloak and say it's good for the health of the game for it to exist?

xeNNNNN · June 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

My MagDk is a vampire. I do pretty well in BGs.

If I can do it, then I guess you need to gain knowledge on how to properly employ your character.

Huuuuge difference between overland and BG.

BG has limited players in any one fight and thus the amount you can get CC's thrown at you from range is incredibly small by comparison to cyrodil.

Alls the wings nerf did was ensure Sorc and bow user dominance. (magblades arent counted here as they are in a terrible position unless they build tank but even then its "meh").

MagDKs can no longer close the gap in a reasonable fashion... sorcs can just streak away and then turn frag, reach etc etc then streak again and the mag dk still wont have caught up and even if you leaped them the sorc streak basically nullifies the gap closing ultimate.

Stamblades running around with the bow stun as well or any bow user for that matter essentially out class DKs by default now purely because there is litterally no defense against it anymore. Some mitigation sure. But it means nothing when the stuns are so frequent and powerful that they can out right kill you.

The only alternative is for people to run absorb magicka but that is reflecting only one projectile and its a stam cast. Meaning only StamDKs can use it and even then inefficiently.

You do know there is more possible than reflect and absord yes? If you so want a gap closer use chains. Still open world, a good roll dodge major expidition and I am right on the enemy giving them hell.

And yes magsorc streaking every class has no real match for that nothing to with magdk

thats not the point. Mag Dks only true ranged defense was pre-nerf wings. Thats it. It has nothing else, the damage mitigation is astonishingly bad in nearly all pvp scenarios right now, the reason I brought up sorcs streak was because its created a scenario where even if you're using Immo pots they can just streak, reach, streak, reach with almost no counterplay. Even if I were to use chains then what? they just stun me up close and nuke because there is virtually nothing aside from shield ult and the former mentioned that can actually stop it anymore and in overland with the amount of projectiles being fired at you it just makes it unbearable.

Yeah sure I could use chains but thats buggy at the best of times hell sometimes it doesnt even go off properly and doesnt even pull because of the lag. Even if I chain a sorc they will just streak away either way. Its not even worth trying to fight them anymore because you cannot push them. They can run around you in circles now because you have 0 defense against ranged stuns. At least stamdk can wear medium as bad as it is and roll dodge everywhere.

Magdks can slot harness, like every other mag class is often forced to do in light armor.

every other mag class can fight from range decently. Thats the key difference here. Magdk is pure melee.

brandonv516 · June 2019

yodased wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Took my mag dk into PvP for the first time since the change last night juat so i could actually add to this discussion.

Fwiw my thoughts:

Whip change is a needed burst of kill power.
Wings change removes what I considered to be 1 of 2 skills that defines the magdk. Reduction of damage from projectiles is great, but it doesn't feel the same way.

I understand what is going on, they fire woebler who was all about creating classes that "feel" great and "powerful". Bring in gilliam and look at numbers to balance things.

All good things, but it's not enough.

Why do nightblades still have cloak? If you objectively look at wings and say it's op then you have to objectively look at cloak in the same eyes.

There were just as many "counters" to wings as there is for cloak so that false comparison lets preempt.

If you objectively want to balance the game, which if you are saying wings changes did, then cloak has to go too.

Yeah because cloak and wings had literally the same counter and used to work the same way /facepalm.

Tell me the many counter of wings that works so well to literally shut down the skill like you can do with cloak.

Let's see there is a potion that make ranged skill not refectable?

Attack someone with wings up remove them like when you attack someone from cloak?

Does every aoe or delayed skill break wings like they do with cloak?

Magelight and co works against wing removing them and suppress them for the debuff duration?

Just sayin tell me all those counter that where making wings easy to deal like i can do when im playing against a cloaker

But yeah let's "nerf" cloak make it cost 50% more everycast but remove many counter that break it and at the same time buff most of the NB skill so then we can open a thread how NB are "weak"after cloak is nerfed.

Ok sure.

The only shutdown a magdk had against a stamblade was to reflect the poison injection taking them put of cloak and locking them down.

Now you get free openers with absolutely no way to shut you down without knowing where you are first. Before you had to pick your targets since a reflect could ruin your day.

Now you are free to gank.

It's interesting how the only ones who hated wings and are for cloak are gankers. Juat because you like a certain play style doesn't make it balanced.

Im not saying wings should be put back. I get why they were changed and i accept that it needed to change for balance and the health of the game.

Can you objectively look at cloak and say it's good for the health of the game for it to exist?

The health of the game is dependent on a lot more than a single skill.

Performance, creativity, customer appreciation and consideration - these are all examples of things that might determine the future of the game's health.

Cloak is fine where it is right now.

Demra · June 2019

Curious, what's fun about playing dk without wings? I don't see that many dks lately in no cp cyrodiil and can't recall the last time somebody leaped. So without those two skills what do people enjoy about the class?

yodased · June 2019

brandonv516 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Took my mag dk into PvP for the first time since the change last night juat so i could actually add to this discussion.

Fwiw my thoughts:

Whip change is a needed burst of kill power.
Wings change removes what I considered to be 1 of 2 skills that defines the magdk. Reduction of damage from projectiles is great, but it doesn't feel the same way.

I understand what is going on, they fire woebler who was all about creating classes that "feel" great and "powerful". Bring in gilliam and look at numbers to balance things.

All good things, but it's not enough.

Why do nightblades still have cloak? If you objectively look at wings and say it's op then you have to objectively look at cloak in the same eyes.

There were just as many "counters" to wings as there is for cloak so that false comparison lets preempt.

If you objectively want to balance the game, which if you are saying wings changes did, then cloak has to go too.

Yeah because cloak and wings had literally the same counter and used to work the same way /facepalm.

Tell me the many counter of wings that works so well to literally shut down the skill like you can do with cloak.

Let's see there is a potion that make ranged skill not refectable?

Attack someone with wings up remove them like when you attack someone from cloak?

Does every aoe or delayed skill break wings like they do with cloak?

Magelight and co works against wing removing them and suppress them for the debuff duration?

Just sayin tell me all those counter that where making wings easy to deal like i can do when im playing against a cloaker

But yeah let's "nerf" cloak make it cost 50% more everycast but remove many counter that break it and at the same time buff most of the NB skill so then we can open a thread how NB are "weak"after cloak is nerfed.

Ok sure.

The only shutdown a magdk had against a stamblade was to reflect the poison injection taking them put of cloak and locking them down.

Now you get free openers with absolutely no way to shut you down without knowing where you are first. Before you had to pick your targets since a reflect could ruin your day.

Now you are free to gank.

It's interesting how the only ones who hated wings and are for cloak are gankers. Juat because you like a certain play style doesn't make it balanced.

Im not saying wings should be put back. I get why they were changed and i accept that it needed to change for balance and the health of the game.

Can you objectively look at cloak and say it's good for the health of the game for it to exist?

The health of the game is dependent on a lot more than a single skill.

Performance, creativity, customer appreciation and consideration - these are all examples of things that might determine the future of the game's health.

Cloak is fine where it is right now.

Those are not mutually exclusive. I didn't claim cloak is the end all be all problem just that it existing is not good for the health of the game.

Distorting what I said and arguing the distorted version is not fair.

xeNNNNN · June 2019

Aedaryl wrote: »

This is funny how people think that 50% damage mitigation on almost every ranged attack is "bad".

50% is huge.

And a DK blocking reduce projectile near 90%.

Wings took a 1vX buff by allowing the dk to mitigate an infinite number of projectile without needing to refresh i every single second when facing 2 ranged players.

All the story about CC is hilarious. "People spam CC" CC immunity is 6s, and every half decent player will CC you on cooldown, from range or from melee. You should be happy to take ranged CC, at least you can see it and react.

I prefer a counter able slow stun with visual telegraph and travel time than eating invisible cut anim reverb/fear.

errr "At least you can see it and react" ... you do realise that cyrodil is thing right? With the amount of lag in there that CC immunity you speak of often breaks like 90% of the time providing you with no immunity because it didn't register. Let alone the random as hell desyncs from player casts that miraculously stun you without actually showing the cast or impact animation.

If the game had no lag and performed perfectly you'd have a point. but it doesn't and often or not CC immunity doesn't even work correctly.

50% is only huge if it started at the beginning of damage equations in this game but it doesnt, first it goes through resistances, THEN "damage reduction" is applied.

So say you take 5000 damage (and this is in no way a real scenario but good for making the point), that gets reduced down to 1500 by resistances (including crit resistance) THEN damage reduction is applied from ranged attacks only - 750 dmg will be mitigated by the ranged damage reduction. It will always mitigate what ever is left after going through all your other defenses because "damage reduction" is at the tail end of the damage equations. So no 50% is pretty much bleh because damage reduction as a whole in the game is incredibly ineffective and inefficient.

yodased · June 2019

Demra wrote: »

Curious, what's fun about playing dk without wings? I don't see that many dks lately in no cp cyrodiil and can't recall the last time somebody leaped. So without those two skills what do people enjoy about the class?

For me what makes a dragonknight unique is the offensive healing and crown control abilities.

What makes is unique is being able to control the fights tempo, well what used to make us unique. Now we fight at the speed of everyone else just slower because we pose no threat to ranged builds. They just unload on us without worry of retribution or cloak away if they get discovered.

Basically what made magdk feel unique has been removed. We are strong in melee range still and have good skills but all we have is chains and embers now and even embers has been changed to make it less utilitarian

killingspreeb16_ESO · June 2019

yodased wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Took my mag dk into PvP for the first time since the change last night juat so i could actually add to this discussion.

Fwiw my thoughts:

Whip change is a needed burst of kill power.
Wings change removes what I considered to be 1 of 2 skills that defines the magdk. Reduction of damage from projectiles is great, but it doesn't feel the same way.

I understand what is going on, they fire woebler who was all about creating classes that "feel" great and "powerful". Bring in gilliam and look at numbers to balance things.

All good things, but it's not enough.

Why do nightblades still have cloak? If you objectively look at wings and say it's op then you have to objectively look at cloak in the same eyes.

There were just as many "counters" to wings as there is for cloak so that false comparison lets preempt.

If you objectively want to balance the game, which if you are saying wings changes did, then cloak has to go too.

Yeah because cloak and wings had literally the same counter and used to work the same way /facepalm.

Tell me the many counter of wings that works so well to literally shut down the skill like you can do with cloak.

Let's see there is a potion that make ranged skill not refectable?

Attack someone with wings up remove them like when you attack someone from cloak?

Does every aoe or delayed skill break wings like they do with cloak?

Magelight and co works against wing removing them and suppress them for the debuff duration?

Just sayin tell me all those counter that where making wings easy to deal like i can do when im playing against a cloaker

But yeah let's "nerf" cloak make it cost 50% more everycast but remove many counter that break it and at the same time buff most of the NB skill so then we can open a thread how NB are "weak"after cloak is nerfed.

Ok sure.

The only shutdown a magdk had against a stamblade was to reflect the poison injection taking them put of cloak and locking them down.

Now you get free openers with absolutely no way to shut you down without knowing where you are first. Before you had to pick your targets since a reflect could ruin your day.

Now you are free to gank.

It's interesting how the only ones who hated wings and are for cloak are gankers. Juat because you like a certain play style doesn't make it balanced.

Im not saying wings should be put back. I get why they were changed and i accept that it needed to change for balance and the health of the game.

Can you objectively look at cloak and say it's good for the health of the game for it to exist?

Yes because i can negate cloak in many ways unlike with wing on a ranged build,also i don't think the concept of wing was bad for the game but how it was implemented with really 0 counterplay for many build since they where up often unlike the SaB ultimate.
When i was playing on my Mageblade against a mDK with wings slotted was just pointless since i could never killed them unless they where real bad.(even stamnDk could be a real pain with wings but they where not up all the time like for the mDK so it was fine imo)

For Cloak on my magsorc or even worse on my stamDk i can break cloak really easy is not even comparable,on my mageblade at best vs wing i could slot forcepulse or CW but you can't expect to kill someone with just 1 skill and like 70% of your kit negated.

i don't even need to go out of my way to counter cloak but i had to slot a specific skill not to counter wings but only to be able to do some dmg to the DK but still every other skill and light attack would have been refelcted to me regardless if i hit him with forcepulse/CW.

Idk what you where trying to say with poison inject(i asked how to counter wings like you can do with cloak but nvm)but on my stamblade i had no problem against wings that's don't change that many other build do and they can't do anything against it,atleast with cloak even if i make a build with really 0 way to break it i can use a detect pot there are many option to deal with it.
If the only way to counter cloak was to slot magelight then it would have been another story.

Anyway im not a fan of how they changed wing but that's dosen't change that wing needed to be changed somewhat like was suggested on the forum "wings only reflect skill from X range"so in melee range you where not immune to everything and be able to do a full rotation while also adding more pressure if the target tried to fire something at you without a way to counter that.(you could even increase the number of skill reflected this way if needed)

yodased · June 2019

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

asking for wings counters

1. increase magic cost poison
2. light attack weaves
3. ggwp

killingspreeb16_ESO · June 2019

yodased wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

asking for wings counters

1. increase magic cost poison
2. light attack weaves
3. ggwp

yeah because you can't reapply wings after and meanwhile do whatever you want to the target that is light attacking you(so scary)

Seem like you never played against a magikadk with a ranged build or if you did against one that was not brain afk while fighting.

Have it your way this discussion is not going anywhere anyway.

JumpmanLane · June 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

jdmoonan wrote: »

I hope you will listen to the points I have made and really make up for this hit to mag dk.

What more do you want? Every other skill in DK kit got buffed last patch and the spec is a top performer, yet you're still complaining about the "hit." If you're out there struggling because now all of a sudden you have to deal with projectile stuns like every other (weaker) class, that's a you problem, not the devs gutted your class problem.

I disagree with the OP about wings; but YOU run around Cyro Zerging, JD DON’T! Lol JD don’t. Lol

JumpmanLane · June 2019

Demra wrote: »

Curious, what's fun about playing dk without wings? I don't see that many dks lately in no cp cyrodiil and can't recall the last time somebody leaped. So without those two skills what do people enjoy about the class?

Killing folks! What I enjoy THE most.

Dashmatt · June 2019

New wings may feel less unique but they also feel a lot more balanced now. Dragon Fire Scale has a similar effect but doesn’t punish attackers for having high damage. Protective Scale is less exciting, but I use Race Against Time for mobility anyway. Wings are more of a flex spot, but that’s never changed for me.

MagDks are in great shape right now, even after losing their scrub-immunity button...

YOB · June 2019

Anyron wrote: »

So your problem is with ranged hard CC skills. (i know this is overused but i dont know how to say it differently - L2p?)

Every magicka build had to deal with ranged CCs, thats why stamina dominates some pvp (noCP) w here you can, as mag, use only one roll and one CC break until you have ZERO stamina.

Now magDK has to deal with it as any other magbuild in this game. Hard CC reflect was stupid thing and they did right to remove it.

Very that

BlackMadara · June 2019

JumpmanLane wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

I dislike that it is gone, but can see why reflect was considered a problem. 50% damage reduction is still strong, and DFS returns a hefty amount of damage. Pretty hilarious to see unaware bow users kill themselves.

I'm finding it hard to justify running protective for snare immunity over RAT though. RAT gives psijic passives, 30% speed, minor force, and snare removal for 2387 cost. Wings gives 50% ranged damage reduction (has been shown to reduce damage from more than just projectiles) and snare removal for 3138 cost. As far as snares go, the increased speed from RAT makes it easier to get out of AoEs. That, combined with lower cost, and potentially increased damage makes it seem like the better choice.

That said, I'm considering trying protective to free up a bar slot. Gonna try slotting ele drain. Would increased pen and mag return outweigh the movement speed and minor force of RAT? I'll see how it feels.

Dude, I ain’t being funny. I ain’t! I ain’t! But how in the WORLD are you running MagDk without Ele Drain?

Look, run RAT if you want to. It ain’t necessarily a bad skill at all, albeit a particularly weird playstyle tho (I can with VERY good justification call your playstyle weird if you ain’t running Ele Drain. Point blank and period. Lol).

Wings/SnB is probably the best way to run MagDk THIS patch. There is no reason at ALL to pick RAT over wings AND Ele Drain. You’re just gimping yourself. Folks are TANKY now days. You better have a source of Major Sorcery too lol.

Are you talking PvE? No way you’re PvPing not running Ele Drain. Do you run whip and leap? Lol. Nvm. I’m being funny and I shouldn’t be. BUT. DUDE...I just can’t take your ideas seriously on MagDk like at all lol.

Convince me otherwise. Tell me what you’re running.

Geeze run Undo on your back bar if you want Psijic passives AND minor protection. Hehehehe if you’re gonna honestly try to peck away at folks without MAJOR BREACH you’re gonna def need 8% damage mitigation on your turtle bar lol. As IF 50% damage mitigation vs projectiles is something you’re only CONSIDERING (91% with a shield on ALL projectiles vs 4). Geeze...50% 0n projectiles over 30% while CHANELLING). Oh I’m gonna die laughing lol.

I've run ele drain in the past, and it isn't the end all, be all that some people seem to think it is.It is a very good skill. The main con of ele drain is it being purged for free. Fighting a temp spamming purge essentially means ele drain is a dead skill on my bar. This is a restricted scenario, but one I find myself in pretty often.

Running RAT with DFS has proved effective as well. You lose a chunk of mag return compared to not having ele drain, but i barely run low either way. You lose damage compared to using ele drain, but the minor force buff makes up a bit of that, RAT is much cheaper than Plate for snare removal, and gives major expedition. DFS is nice to deter ranged attackers in 1vX scenarios. Those fireballs do quite a bit of damage and force ranged attackers to stop and heal, or outright kill themselves if they are scrubs. That potential relief in pressure is useful. The con is that having to cast two spells for snare removal and damage mitigation can be costly and GCD wasting.

So it comes down to:

RAT + DFS: Snare removal + 50% ranged damage mitigation for 2 GCD, Major Expedition (+30% speed), Minor Force (+10% crit damage), and counter pressure vs ranged targets

Protective + Ele Drain: Snare Removal +50% ranged damage mitigation for 1 GCD, Major Breach (-8% spell mitigation vs target, and 300 mag/s while attacking (easy with dots)

I am leaning towards Protective and Ele drain, hence why i'm playtesting them now.

PS. Of course I run major sorcery. Flame staff is a lot of damage to pass up. SnB front bar is really only effective if you block often on front bar, which I do not build for in cyro. I run ice staff to play defensively back bar.