Maintenance for the week of February 23:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
Server Transfers When?
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Chelo✭✭✭✭✭It's kind of goofy that this isn't a thing. Even if its a paid service. It couldn't be that hard to implement
I'm a programmer (not games, but business software). I often get requests for changes, with the requester adding, "that should be easy." Nobody ever makes a request and says, "That should be hard."
Doesn't matter if it's hard, the point is that it's certainly possible...1 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭MyKillv2.0 wrote: »Other MMO games offer cross server transfers. Why not ESO?
I am not sure why a NA to EU same platform would be a massive issue. I can see plenty of smaller issues but nothing in Elder Scrolls Online's make up is different than lets say World of Warcraft or Everquestion, both of which offer server transfers. I get the problems that would present in cross platform transfer and I am not sure if Microsoft/Sony would even allow such a thing, something that WoW or EQ does not have to deal with when conducting business since they are PC only. However the question isn't "can I move from Xbox to PC". The question is, "why can I not move from NA to EU or vice versa". I can see where there were be minor issues such as name (as previously stated) but nothing that would completely prevent the issue OUTSIDE of the fact that it would be work and this company..... well, when presented with the option to do nothing or work hard to fix an issue, often chooses the "do nothing" option. Sorry 'ESO Fam' bois... the history is there and you are simply foolish for attempting to argue anything other than this fact.
Now, do I think the offer/feature will ever be made from Zo$? Nope.
Do I think that it is possible? Of course. That fact is not argueable. Plenty of other games do this. If Sony could do this almost two decades ago in Everquest, I think the Dark Ages of Camelot bois have had plenty of time to figure it out.
Are you sure nothing is different? Do you know how each game structures their servers? For PC ESO has two servers. WoW has around 250 servers, or did at one time. That really isn't accurate though as what you are thinking of as a server is an instance on a server. Your character information isn't saved in that instance/server but a central location. They can allow you to switch instances/servers because your character information is already shared across them. With ESO your character information is unique to either the EU or NA server. A character switch involves much more than a name change.
As I said above, it might involve a lot of work but it's certainly possible. If Devs were doing this 15 years ago, they can certainly find a way to do it now. The only issue is are they willing to do the job?1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭scorpius2k1 wrote: »Dagoth_Rac wrote: »The big problem is database keys. The various details in game are almost certainly not linked by character names but big gigantic numbers unique to each player. So your character named "Joe Schmo" might have character_id 67897895637. And that 67897895637 is all over the place linking what inventory belongs to you, what achievements, what quest progression, what mounts, what pets, what guilds, what friends, your guild trader listings, what daily rewards you have claimed, and on and on and on. There are probably dozens or hundreds of tables. Someone on another megaserver, regardless of their character name, probably has character_id 67897895637 on that megaserver. That causes conflicts
It makes perfect sense if that is how it's implemented, but I sure hope they didn't create the system that way because it's a bad design and there would be no way to scale it. Why wouldn't those account ID numbers theoretically just be global regardless of server? There should be a "master server" of sorts that stores ID's globally that are tied to a users account when they sign up, then when they connect to a server all the data is tied to that number from there on out. A simplistic way to think of this is how Steam accounts work, they have a unique global SteamID attached to that account and any game can pull that data from the master server if needed. In the case of ESO, when you want to transfer to another server/realm, etc, a simple transfer of that data attached to the account number is moved into the destination database. I'm sure many of you have worked with databases before so you know how easy it is to transfer data from one to another when associated with an ID. The only difference here is we have a primary database with account id's (master server) and secondary databases that store the related data (megaservers). A basic example of a working transfer with this method:- Player initiates an account move from Megaserver "A".
- Megaserver "A" then sends a request for the players account ID from Master Server
- Master Server gives ID back
- Megaserver "A" then copies data to Megaserver "B" from that associated ID (or whatever server location comes along as the game grows)
We could get into all the commentary about the performance metrics of everything and optimizations do so, etc, but this is just to give a basic example of how it could work at it's core. Other systems could be put into place to do the heavy lifting. I believe this is very similar to how WoW and other MMO's do it. WoW uses realms which are also similar to ESO's megaservers in functionality, but on a smaller scale due to user count limitations. Anyway, again, if they allow multiple account ID's with the same number to exist within the same game regardless of megaserver, that is just bad design. I hope that's not the case because if so, I agree, we would likely never see transfer options come to light.
With that said, you can also see the other side of the coin and why it could also easily work. It just depends on how ZOS designed their system, which at the end of the day we all can only speculate on.
While your example is overly simplistic and I expect you are aware of that, nothing you have said is relevant to a unique identifier being assigned to each account or even character name. What you quoted and replied to has no bearing on your suggestion and neither do unique identifier numbers being assign which happens to be part of many popular db designs even when there is a field that is already required to be unique like an @name or character name is required to be unique per server.
Regardless, Zos chose to not build a system to manage account transfers among live servers. So all of this is rather moot anyhow.2 -
RPGplayer13579✭✭✭✭So what would happen if you bought and furnished the same house on both servers? Do you get a refund of some sort? Not likely.My Characters.
Mike Snow - Imperial - Templar - One-Handed and Shield - Tank - Daggerfall Covenant - Commander.
Catelyn Rivers - Breton - Sorcerer - Destruction Staff - Daggerfall Covenant - Telvanni Magister.
Ashara Sand - Redguard - Warden - Two-Handed/One-Handed and Shield - Daggerfall Covenant - Heroic.
Tormund gro-Largash - Orsimer - Dragonknight - Two-Handed - Daggerfall Covenant - Furious.
Lysa Rivers - Breton - Nightblade - Bow/One-Handed and Shield - Vampire - Daggerfall Covenant - Brassy Assassin.
Jon Karstark - Nord - Dragonknight - Two-Handed - Ebonheart Pact - Drunk.
Arya Sand - Dunmer - Dragonknight - Dual Wield - Ebonheart Pact - Assassin.
Sansa Snow - Impeial - Warden - Destruction Staff/One-Handed and Shield - Ebonheart Pect - Swashbuckler.
Jojen Reed-Walker - Argonian - Templar - Restoration Staff - Healer - Ebonheart Pact - Melancholy.
Alys Karstark - Nord - Nightblade - Bow/Dual Wield - Ebonheart Pact - Minstrel.
Nymeria Woods - Bosmer - Nightblade - Bow - Aldmeri Dominion - Thief.
Brandon Wings - Altmer - Templar - Restoration Staff - Healer - Aldmeri Dominion - Scholar.
Lyanna Flowers - Altmer - Sorcerer - Sword/Destruction Staff - Aldmeri Dominion - Duchess.
Marvolo-jo Riddle - Khajiit - Necromancer - Destruction Staff - Aldmeri Dominion - Deadlands Firewalker.
Obara Woods - Bosmer - Templar - Bow - Werewolf - Aldmeri Dominion - Cheerful.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RPGplayer13579 wrote: »So what would happen if you bought and furnished the same house on both servers? Do you get a refund of some sort? Not likely.
No. In game purchases are server specific and do not transfer under any circumstance. Crowns are available on both servers but if you spend them on one server the total remaining is reduced on both servers.JamieAubrey wrote: »
Not a hard problem to resolve. It's just a db field.
True. Games deal with that when they do sever mergers and just force players to choose a new name. The reason we do not have server transfers is Zos does not want to do it or there is a contract issue blocking them from providing them. It really is that simple.
The only case I can see Zos starting to offer transfers is if they do server mergers which is unlikely. Then they will have to build out the tool to manage it. Unless that happens you will probably just have to deal.Edited by idk on June 15, 2019 7:35AM0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MyKillv2.0 wrote: »Other MMO games offer cross server transfers. Why not ESO?
I am not sure why a NA to EU same platform would be a massive issue. I can see plenty of smaller issues but nothing in Elder Scrolls Online's make up is different than lets say World of Warcraft or Everquestion, both of which offer server transfers. I get the problems that would present in cross platform transfer and I am not sure if Microsoft/Sony would even allow such a thing, something that WoW or EQ does not have to deal with when conducting business since they are PC only. However the question isn't "can I move from Xbox to PC". The question is, "why can I not move from NA to EU or vice versa". I can see where there were be minor issues such as name (as previously stated) but nothing that would completely prevent the issue OUTSIDE of the fact that it would be work and this company..... well, when presented with the option to do nothing or work hard to fix an issue, often chooses the "do nothing" option. Sorry 'ESO Fam' bois... the history is there and you are simply foolish for attempting to argue anything other than this fact.
Now, do I think the offer/feature will ever be made from Zo$? Nope.
Do I think that it is possible? Of course. That fact is not argueable. Plenty of other games do this. If Sony could do this almost two decades ago in Everquest, I think the Dark Ages of Camelot bois have had plenty of time to figure it out.
Are you sure nothing is different? Do you know how each game structures their servers? For PC ESO has two servers. WoW has around 250 servers, or did at one time. That really isn't accurate though as what you are thinking of as a server is an instance on a server. Your character information isn't saved in that instance/server but a central location. They can allow you to switch instances/servers because your character information is already shared across them. With ESO your character information is unique to either the EU or NA server. A character switch involves much more than a name change.
As I said above, it might involve a lot of work but it's certainly possible. If Devs were doing this 15 years ago, they can certainly find a way to do it now. The only issue is are they willing to do the job?
Sure and since ducks can fly badgers should be able to fly. Ducks have been doing it for years. The server structure is not the same. You might say (and you would be correct) it is a whole different animal. How ZoS controls population on the server and how WoW does it is vastly different. Maybe it would be possible. Would it be feasible though? It isn't just changing a few lines of code. It would involve overhauling the entire structure.
But if you want to believe they are lying to you out of spite or laziness more power to you.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MyKillv2.0 wrote: »Other MMO games offer cross server transfers. Why not ESO?
I am not sure why a NA to EU same platform would be a massive issue. I can see plenty of smaller issues but nothing in Elder Scrolls Online's make up is different than lets say World of Warcraft or Everquestion, both of which offer server transfers. I get the problems that would present in cross platform transfer and I am not sure if Microsoft/Sony would even allow such a thing, something that WoW or EQ does not have to deal with when conducting business since they are PC only. However the question isn't "can I move from Xbox to PC". The question is, "why can I not move from NA to EU or vice versa". I can see where there were be minor issues such as name (as previously stated) but nothing that would completely prevent the issue OUTSIDE of the fact that it would be work and this company..... well, when presented with the option to do nothing or work hard to fix an issue, often chooses the "do nothing" option. Sorry 'ESO Fam' bois... the history is there and you are simply foolish for attempting to argue anything other than this fact.
Now, do I think the offer/feature will ever be made from Zo$? Nope.
Do I think that it is possible? Of course. That fact is not argueable. Plenty of other games do this. If Sony could do this almost two decades ago in Everquest, I think the Dark Ages of Camelot bois have had plenty of time to figure it out.
Please tell us the basis of your intimate knowledge of the technical workings of the ESO game and server coding which enable you to reach that conclusion contrary to the counter-claim by ZOS that they know their system doesn't permit it.
His argument is 100% validated, if games with less technology could get this feature 15 years ago, why ESO couldn't?
It isn't a question of whether a modern game should be developed so as to include that feature, it's a question of whether ESO was developed so as to include it. ZOS say not, and a claim that they're wrong can only be validated by someone with at least equal knowledge of the game and server code as them.1 -
Wildberryjack✭✭✭✭✭
✭I can't help but believe there is a way to do it. Sorry but I do. One of my friends works building computer systems and says that anything is possible, you just have to figure out how to make it work.
As for duplicate names, go to move the toon and it says name taken so it gives you a random nonsense name that you change after the transfer, like other games do.The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. ~Pablo Picasso3 -
Evito✭✭✭I have no idea why anyone would think duplicate names is the issue here.. just force a name change like every other game does.1
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IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Wildberryjack wrote: »
Also this isn't just about me, what happens to people who move from Europe to North America, or from N.A. to Europe?
You aren’t required to change severs if you move.
Players that have to qualify an opinion by saying it “just isn’t about me” really mean that “it is all about me” ...
Oh bs. The latency alone is crippling.
Speaking as one who has done it; I’m literally that fed up with the latency and then to play on EU I lose all my crown stuff and have to level/get achievements and all that all over again?
Yeah just gonna pass.
I will miss this game sorely; but it is what it is.3 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have no idea why anyone would think duplicate names is the issue here.. just force a name change like every other game does.
How would you like it if a character you've made and played for 4-5 years was the one that had to be changed? You probably wouldn't be to happy with it.Beta tester November 20130 -
vgabor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »The big problem is database keys. The various details in game are almost certainly not linked by character names but big gigantic numbers unique to each player. So your character named "Joe Schmo" might have character_id 67897895637. And that 67897895637 is all over the place linking what inventory belongs to you, what achievements, what quest progression, what mounts, what pets, what guilds, what friends, your guild trader listings, what daily rewards you have claimed, and on and on and on. There are probably dozens or hundreds of tables. Someone on another megaserver, regardless of their character name, probably has character_id 67897895637 on that megaserver. That causes conflicts. So you would not only have to give the transferred player a new character_id, but update all those related tables to have the new character_id. And I am sure there is also an account_id. And probably even more keys that are not obvious if we do not know details of database structure.
^^^ This.
It is not inherently impossible if you take this problem in consideration when you initially design your system and generate your keys from the beginning in a way that they not collide, but it is a very hard if you want to retrofit this feature into a system running since years. The easiest and most safest way would be prefixing *all the primary keys* on *all the servers* with a unique server specific prefix so they became globally unique. Been there and done that, it's not impossible but takes a very serious effort and engineering time, and extra care because if you make just a little tiny mistake you will screw up everything big time.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wildberryjack wrote: »I can't help but believe there is a way to do it. Sorry but I do. One of my friends works building computer systems and says that anything is possible, you just have to figure out how to make it work.
As for duplicate names, go to move the toon and it says name taken so it gives you a random nonsense name that you change after the transfer, like other games do.
Everything you have accomplished on a character and everything your characters have is associated with that name in some way. Simply changing the name would mean losing all the stuff associated with it.
And yeah it is possible. They could shut the game down for several months and do a comprehensive rewrite of the code. It isn't feasible to do it though.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »The big problem is database keys. The various details in game are almost certainly not linked by character names but big gigantic numbers unique to each player. So your character named "Joe Schmo" might have character_id 67897895637. And that 67897895637 is all over the place linking what inventory belongs to you, what achievements, what quest progression, what mounts, what pets, what guilds, what friends, your guild trader listings, what daily rewards you have claimed, and on and on and on. There are probably dozens or hundreds of tables. Someone on another megaserver, regardless of their character name, probably has character_id 67897895637 on that megaserver. That causes conflicts. So you would not only have to give the transferred player a new character_id, but update all those related tables to have the new character_id. And I am sure there is also an account_id. And probably even more keys that are not obvious if we do not know details of database structure.
^^^ This.
It is not inherently impossible if you take this problem in consideration when you initially design your system and generate your keys from the beginning in a way that they not collide, but it is a very hard if you want to retrofit this feature into a system running since years. The easiest and most safest way would be prefixing *all the primary keys* on *all the servers* with a unique server specific prefix so they became globally unique. Been there and done that, it's not impossible but takes a very serious effort and engineering time, and extra care because if you make just a little tiny mistake you will screw up everything big time.
And at a cost that is most unlikely to be cost-effective having regard to the very few players who have asked for it compared to the very many players who have asked for the necessary resources to be spent on improving their performance and other issues which impact much more on the long-term commercial success of the game.0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »The big problem is database keys. The various details in game are almost certainly not linked by character names but big gigantic numbers unique to each player. So your character named "Joe Schmo" might have character_id 67897895637. And that 67897895637 is all over the place linking what inventory belongs to you, what achievements, what quest progression, what mounts, what pets, what guilds, what friends, your guild trader listings, what daily rewards you have claimed, and on and on and on. There are probably dozens or hundreds of tables. Someone on another megaserver, regardless of their character name, probably has character_id 67897895637 on that megaserver. That causes conflicts. So you would not only have to give the transferred player a new character_id, but update all those related tables to have the new character_id. And I am sure there is also an account_id. And probably even more keys that are not obvious if we do not know details of database structure.
When ZOS were copying into empty databases at console launch, there was no worry about those database keys already existing and causing conflicts. So it was just a flat copy. Now it would be copy into some kind of temporary storage, generate new database keys that do not overlap with megaserver you are transferring into, reassign all the existing database keys to new database keys in that temporary storage, then copy from temporary storage and merge into megaserver you are transferring to. And all without messing up and having your items or other details suddenly appear or disappear or get duplicated because of database key errors or overlaps.
I am sure this is not impossible, but it is also not trivial. It is not just renaming a character. And it is a "high risk" change. The kinds of things that can go wrong are very serious.
Most people with no experience with SQL, or databases, etc have no clue how this works. But yeah, its not as easy as clicking a "transfer" button like people think. People also think this is something that could be done within a week to complete lol0 -
Unfadingsilence✭✭✭✭✭
✭IzzyStardust wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Wildberryjack wrote: »
Also this isn't just about me, what happens to people who move from Europe to North America, or from N.A. to Europe?
You aren’t required to change severs if you move.
Players that have to qualify an opinion by saying it “just isn’t about me” really mean that “it is all about me” ...
Oh bs. The latency alone is crippling.
Speaking as one who has done it; I’m literally that fed up with the latency and then to play on EU I lose all my crown stuff and have to level/get achievements and all that all over again?
Yeah just gonna pass.
I will miss this game sorely; but it is what it is.
Where are you moving to that will effect your over latency? I play on xbox in NA and EU I live in the US and when I play in EU there is less lag and pfs drops than on NA and I'm enjoying every min of it even starting over and getting to CP 500 only took a few days0 -
IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unfadingsilence wrote: »IzzyStardust wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Wildberryjack wrote: »
Also this isn't just about me, what happens to people who move from Europe to North America, or from N.A. to Europe?
You aren’t required to change severs if you move.
Players that have to qualify an opinion by saying it “just isn’t about me” really mean that “it is all about me” ...
Oh bs. The latency alone is crippling.
Speaking as one who has done it; I’m literally that fed up with the latency and then to play on EU I lose all my crown stuff and have to level/get achievements and all that all over again?
Yeah just gonna pass.
I will miss this game sorely; but it is what it is.
Where are you moving to that will effect your over latency? I play on xbox in NA and EU I live in the US and when I play in EU there is less lag and pfs drops than on NA and I'm enjoying every min of it even starting over and getting to CP 500 only took a few days
Yeah console is a different animal entirely to PC - first the pop alone on the Rickety Murkmire Wardrobe that serves as the EU server is problematic enough...in England, my ping to EU is now over 150, to NA 250-400 standard.0 -
Thrawniel✭✭✭As someone who moved continents and is stuck on EU with grand mastercrafter and shitloads of recipes, plus all my crown stuff, I really would love an option to move.
I made a character on NA, but just cannot bring myself to start from ground up. I'd rather quit than do it over.
Currently my ping is 200-300s on a good day. And EU server did not have a good day in a while. So it gets more and more frustrating.
But what I do not not get is that they can perfectly copy characters from EU to PTS(which is on NA servers), with all the stuff intact. So why not copy to live the same way they do to PTS.
As for duplicate names... Other games just require you to rename character when moving if the name is taken on a new server. Easy solution. I'd be ok with renaming characters if it meant better overall game experience.
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kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
But what I do not not get is that they can perfectly copy characters from EU to PTS(which is on NA servers), with all the stuff intact. So why not copy to live the same way they do to PTS.
The PTS is a full copy of either the EU or NA database. At no time does anyone on the PTS have access to their existing characters from both servers. They have always said that that is possible, it's presumably also how the console launch transfers were done. If they copied the EU servers to live NA like they do for PTS, all existing NA characters would be gone.0 -
Thrawniel✭✭✭kringled_1 wrote: »
The PTS is a full copy of either the EU or NA database. At no time does anyone on the PTS have access to their existing characters from both servers. They have always said that that is possible, it's presumably also how the console launch transfers were done. If they copied the EU servers to live NA like they do for PTS, all existing NA characters would be gone.
I cannot even begin to comprehend how someone not only decided that such system was a good idea, but also convinced others to implement it.
Just wow.
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